Sako S20

Rumors they are going to make carbon fiber stock/forearms for these but only rumors teased so far. It doesn't seem like that would save much weight on what is already not a light gun, but who knows, maybe they can save quite a bit in the rear stock.

I've been keeping an eye on these as I still like the idea of a 300 win mag, I really like the ergonomics. I'd say two things still hold me back. The first is the varying accuracy reports, some people get great ones, and some clearly struggle to get them to shoot. Which is odd for Sako, and in the past Beretta has been less than fun to deal with in the states. You see this even in reviews that list groups for multiple ammo types, many of them struggle to get below 1" and if they do it's JUST below 1". I've seen 3-4 at the range now and none shot impressive (granted I don't know the skill of those shooting them, but they didn't appear to be yahoos). They don't appear to be selling well in the states, some big box stores have stopped carrying them, and they've been giving away $400 in stock parts as rebates forever it seems.

One issue I've read about and seen first hand at the range was it seems like the long actions have problems picking up a round from the magazine. I saw a gentleman struggling with this at the range with a 300 wm and tried to help him out and I had the same problem. Even first round with the bolt open sometimes it would not catch the cartridge to load it. European forums (lot more info on sako's there) have mentioned this issue and that the larger mags seem to do it less than the smaller mags. It seemed like the rounds were sitting as high up as they could (first round) but if it failed mid magazine you could see where the rear of the cartridge was not being held up flush on the feed lips, almost like the mag is pushing up too much in the front but not enough in the rear.

With no heavy barrel and 2 stage trigger in the US the S20 is kind of like a lost child. It can't really do precision/varmint duty without the heavy barrel, and it's quite heavy for a pure hunting rig.

The other issue with a lot of these, say the S20, Lupo, Waypoint, is at these price points you are basically at a Seekins Havak Hit price, and it's hard to image the Seekins isn't more likely to be a better shooter. That said it's a great time to need a deer rifle cause lots of companies are stepping up with interesting options. The early reports on the Lupo suggest it's doing really well from an accuracy standpoint. The Waypoint is popular, the CZ 600 offers switch barrel capability etc.
IMnsHO:

Beretta isn't "great to deal with" anywhere...

The S20 is a hunting rifle. No more, no less. If you want precision, get a TRG. Not that they always deliver, but it's the one "they care" about (but not the civilian market).

The S20 is a slimmed down version of the TRG. Shortened 10 mm so no 338LM. 2 mm thinner bolt 17 vs 19. The action itself is lightened (material removed). Platic fantastic magazine instead of metal.

To me, the S20 is taking a TRG and removing everything that makes that as great as it is. And instead of using and evolving the TRG to a medium wheight hunting rifle, they made something very few really want.
 
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Sales must really be tanking on these in the states, QC seems very hit and miss. I see Eurooptic is now blowing them out with 1/3 off and Cabelas and Bass pro keeps getting "demo and display" batches they are blowing out at a similar price.
 
Per Beretta/Tikka at SHOT only the S20 hunter model will remain and they added the Roughtech stock which is noticeably nicer than the original.
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Well that's good, sako should be ashamed of the old creaky cheap feeling plastic version. Wonder if we'll be getting the 2 stage triggers and heavier barrel options. Hopefully they also fixed the mag feeding issues many have been reporting.
 
Yeah, it seems like if you get a good one, you get a great one. Unfortunately with Sako it used to be pretty well a given you'd get a good one. The s20 seems like it's very hit and miss accuracy wise. The euro forums have the most info on them because they are quite a bit more popular there. The two big issues reported seem to be the larger calibers not feeding from mags (bolt doesn't pick up the round) for which there are some jury rig fixes (involves spacers in the mag floor to adjust spring tension and the larger capacity extended mags seem to be reported to feed better) and some simply do not shoot well.

Given the amount of horror stories I've read of users trying to get customer service from Beretta I'm not sure I'd risk it. It is temping though, I've shot a couple the action is nice, and some of them really shoot well. I've seen at least one 300wm though that would not shoot well.
 
The s20 seems like it's very hit and miss accuracy wise. ... The two big issues reported seem to be the larger calibers not feeding from mags ... and some simply do not shoot well.
Has one of our many gunsmith members not taken one apart to assess it yet?

When a Remington 700 "didn't shoot well" it was often the assembly of a variety of manufacturing tolerances combining in a poor way. Hence a variety of aftermarket blueprinting services.

Is this just poor tolerances at some place? It seems odd to have anecdotal reports of "mine doesnt shoot well" but not yet have a clear understanding why. Is blueprinting "a thing" / needed on a Sako S20? That seems really unfortunate for something that went out under the "premier" Sako brand.
 
I will say while I'm not a single stage trigger fan, the trigger is very nice.

No idea on why, I'd imagine it's like anything these days unless it's custom you are going to get good barrels and bad barrels, and of course tolerance stacking. Even new these only went for about $1600, and that's with a "chassis" so that's not much more than a wide variety of chassis based factory guns that are hit/miss on accuracy and definitely cheaper than something like a SA Waypoint, Havak Hit, etc. Winchester, Tikka, Ruger, Savage, all offer chassis based rifles that are probably not known for stellar accuracy in all examples at the same $1500-1600 price points. If I had it to do over again I'd have probably gone with the Havak Hit, while I'm sure a bad one gets out now and then they seem to be very consistent.

Twist on these seems to vary as well, earlier ones appear to have been 1:11, which probably would not like heavier 300 rounds, then in 21' it seems like they changed to 1:10 so that might play a part with performance on some of the heavier match ammo. Mine is 1:10 so it should be fine with the range of stuff I've been feeding it.

I do know some I've read about being sent back for accuracy were re-barreled.
 
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Heh, interestingly Beretta must have been reading this thread. They responded with a 3rd party service center info and shipping label, on Friday, from my request dated 3/11/23.

Odd part is if you read Beretta's service center/return info on their website, they specifically say that if you are having target/accuracy issues the gun MUST go back to Beretta's own service center, not one of their third party service centers.

Hopefully it won't be another 3 months before they respond again with confirmation on where it should be sent.
 
Heh today I got a reply that I was indeed right and that it needs to go back to them directly so they updated their records and sent me a new return label. Doesn't instill much confidence when I know more about their return policies than they do :ROFLMAO: I can only image the shit show it would have been if I'd have sent it to the wrong service center as they advised.

More interesting is from what I can find out it doesn't seem like you can just ship a gun through UPS anymore. Seems like you have to use an FFL or a return service specific for guns with UPS like ShipMyGun etc. Not surprising but there's no gun specific info on the return gun service on their webpage and their return label even says you can just drop it off at any UPS shipper, UPS Customer center, UPS Store, Staples etc. and I know that's not accurate.
 
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Shipped out and delivered back to Beretta this week. UPS shipping was pretty painless, it sounds like as long as the shipping label was generated from a Firearms Account with UPS there's no issue shipping it at hub that accepts restricted articles. I make that distinction because it sounds like some hubs now no longer accept any restricted articles (not just guns) so if you get one of those are are SOL.

We shall see what happens!
 
Arrived back today. They said they were able to shoot a 0.9" C-C group out of it off a lead sled with Fed Premium 180gr, so it meets factory accuracy parameters and since they did not experience any feeding issues during testing, they did nothing about the feeding issue, even though it's clearly a well documented issue.
 
Yeah but it gives Beretta an out, it's technically under their accuracy guarantee. I've seen a few that have been hammers, even shot another s20 300wm that was a hammer when I was having issues getting mine to shoot. We swapped and he shot horrible groups with mine and I shot great groups with his, swapped back and problem followed the gun. I've seen a couple come through the range that were definitely not good shooters. Most of the ones I've seen that were really good shooters were 6.5's and 308's. It looks like Sako is now part of the barrel lottery that so many other factory brands have fallen into.

The feeding issue actually bothers me more, it's clearly a very common issue, Beretta is replacing magazines for people when they call and complain. So you'd think that if someone brings up the exact same issue, and the gun is in for service, you'd address it.

Unfortunately these days companies are looking for any possible way out to avoid service work. Buddy of mine is in the car business and he said he's never seen car companies try so hard to deny warranty/service etc. as they have the last couple years. If they can find any loophole to get out of it they do, and dealers have to run way more warranty repairs by the manufacturer for approval than they ever used to.

I'd be curious to know how many groups they had to fire to cherry pick one under 1MOA. I sent the rifle to them spotless clean, and I'm cleaning it now because it was obvious they didn't after testing it. Now I've had some 60-80 round sessions with this rifle trying to get it to shoot and it's never had anywhere near this much copper in it. My cleaning routine is usually Bore tech C4 carbon remover, BT Copper remover, and then a few passes with Rem 40x bore cleaner. Usually it's 4-5 C4 patches and Copper remover patches and you can see the blue on the patch drop way off, maybe 10 on a big range day. I'm probably at 30+ copper remover patches and they still are heavy blue after even just a few minutes dwell time.
 
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Oh yeah, I just scoped it, normally I use a bore scope for cleaning, it has a HUGE carbon ring in it now, and even more odd is normally I'm used to copper increasing down the barrel toward the muzzle, this one it's almost like the first few inches of the barrel is copper washed, the rest of the barrel cleaned up well, but there's tons of copper where the rifling starts for the first few inches.

Sadly, these days everything is about reducing cost, I work for an aerospace contractor and the biggest buzz word we've heard from customers/management for the last couple years is MVP. Sounds like a good thing, till they tell you it's Minimum Viable Product. Basically do the minimum amount of work/effort to just squeak by requirements, it's really no longer about making a great product that exceeds customers expectations.
 
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I have the S20 in 3 calibers. The 6.5s shoot under 1/2". PRC and creed. 3/4 in the 308. I have some chassis and carbon stocks, AGs and KRG. I love the precision stock. The stock is plastic that sits on a frame. Nothing on the plastic part of the stock touches the barrel or receiver. It may sound hollow to you but personally, that has zero to do with it's capability. It is unreal what a great rifle this is for under 1500$ I bought 2 of them for under 1200 each. I have 3k-4500$ rifle that fail to do what these do. Everyone has their opinion on what a rifle should be. It's great there so many choices out t there. My only complaints are the twist in 30 cals and no short barrels. I'd like a 16" hunter to replace the proof barreled atlas that is no where near as accurate.
 


Scaled down trg according to him, of course it’s easy to see being it’s the same bolt and how the bedding is used, even the precision stock is reminiscent of the early 22’s and 42’s. IMO what it needs or should have, again imo, is a folding aluminum rear stock, steel mags, and a metal trigger guard, along with access to the heavy barrel version that doesn’t seem to be available over here.
 
I have an earlier S20 300 WM with the original grey plastic stock. It shoots great with factory ammo and super easy to load for. My only issue is I just don't like the plastic feel of the stock.

Has anyone handled an S20 with one of the newer RoughTech or camo stocks?? Do the newer stocks feel better than the original plastic/gray stocks?

I have a Sako A7 6.5CM with a black Roughtech stock and it feels very solid (I really like it). Are the new S20 Roughtech stocks the same finish and feel?
 
Amazingly it looks like Midwest Gun Works lists the 2 stage trigger available, not sure I'd give them $400 for it, the single stage is pretty nice. It doesn't seem like Sako is willing to import any of the S20's with the 2 stage trigger or heavy barrels, so I'm surprised they got these.

Bix N Andy make a single stage for the S20, but it's closer to $500. Never seen an aftermarket 2 stage. The gun flopped pretty hard in the states and it doesn't seem like it's interchangeable with say a Tikka/TRG etc. trigger.