Gunsmithing Sanity check, please: .223 bolt gun build

[ksu395]

Happy Holidays!

I am starting my first bolt gun build, and I would appreciate a sanity check to make sure I am not messing up. I have done plenty of searching and reading, but I don't have enough experience to filter the results for exactly my application.

Here are my objectives:

1. I have tons of 5.56 NATO match ammo (e.g. Black Hills 77gr) from my AR builds. I would like to shoot this out to 600 yards, both steel and paper, prone and bench.
2. I do not currently reload, but I could see myself doing this in the future. If the build could accommodate 80/82gr bullets, this would be great, but not required. My local range has steel out to 887 yards.

Here are my plans:

1. Remington 700 S/A, .223 bolt face, Badger recoil lug and tactical bolt knob, Timney trigger
2. Krieger SS barrel, #9 heavy target contour, 26", 1:7" twist, Wylde chamber throated for 2.400" OAL
3. JEC brake or Badger Thruster
4. McRees chassis, AI polymer .223 mags, Atlas bipod
5. Nightforce 20MOA rail, rings, 3.5-15x50 NXS

Again, I am a complete novice, so any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

-Kris

 

[chipsfan]

Happy Holidays!

I am starting my first bolt gun build, and I would appreciate a sanity check to make sure I am not messing up. I have done plenty of searching and reading, but I don't have enough experience to filter the results for exactly my application.

Here are my objectives:

1. I have tons of 5.56 NATO match ammo (e.g. Black Hills 77gr) from my AR builds. I would like to shoot this out to 600 yards, both steel and paper, prone and bench.
2. I do not currently reload, but I could see myself doing this in the future. If the build could accommodate 80/82gr bullets, this would be great, but not required. My local range has steel out to 887 yards.

Here are my plans:

1. Remington 700 S/A, .223 bolt face, Badger recoil lug and tactical bolt knob, Timney trigger
2. Krieger SS barrel, #9 heavy target contour, 26", 1:7" twist, Wylde chamber throated for 2.400" OAL
3. JEC brake or Badger Thruster
4. McRees chassis, AI polymer .223 mags, Atlas bipod
5. Nightforce 20MOA rail, rings, 3.5-15x50 NXS

Again, I am a complete novice, so any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

-Kris

I did mine with a regular 223 reamer and throated it. I thought Wylde was more a gas gun sorta thing.

I love the JSC brake

 

[ksu395]

I did mine with a regular 223 reamer and throated it. I thought Wylde was more a gas gun sorta thing.

Lots of conflicting info out there, including multiple threads here on SH. It is not clear to me if Wylde is for gas guns specifically, or just for 5.56 NATO ammo. I do have a hard requirement for the 5.56 NATO compatibility, at least in 75/77gr bullets. If/when I move to 80gr bullets, those cartridges would be .223 Rem only.

The wikipedia article mentions that it is great for 80gr bullets, but the context of the article seems to be primarily AR-15:
.223 Wylde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I love the JSC brake

Thanks, but I assume that "JSC" is a typo? This is the JEC brake that I am considering:
Recoil Reduction / Muzzle Brakes

 

[WindDoper]

heavy heavy. hope u are not planning on toting this thing.

 

[BoilerUP]

Why the truck axle barrel? Rem Varmint is plenty for 223.

Also, why a muzzle brake?

 

[ksu395]

Why the truck axle barrel? Rem Varmint is plenty for 223.

Also, why a muzzle brake?

I will have to plead ignorance, sir. Should I also go shorter? I notice that the build in your sig is only 22", but that is for a slightly different cartridge.

If a muzzle brake is overkill on .223, then it is easy to drop off the list.

Thanks for the tips.

-Kris

 

[chipsfan]

I will have to plead ignorance, sir. Should I also go shorter? I notice that the build in your sig is only 22", but that is for a slightly different cartridge.

If a muzzle brake is overkill on .223, then it is easy to drop off the list.

Thanks for the tips.

-Kris

They are correct- I didn't even notice the contour. I have a 223 I built for F class and it had a bartlein heavy varmint with a 28" tube on it. The gun didn't move. I cut it to 24 and its still stationary. The Rem countours they suggested make for a nice handling rifle.

 

[BoilerUP]

My opinions only:

Rem Varmint/Sendero contour is plenty for a 223 Remington; little is gained by going to a ginormous contour barrel in my opinion ESPECIALLY if you are doing any field work with the rifle. As for length, 26" will give more velocity which helps at longer ranges but the tradeoff is weight, balance and handiness. I much prefer a 20-22" barrel for those reasons...but if your rifle is strictly a bench toy, a long heavy contour is just fine.

I am VERY happy with my 22" light varmint 223AI; with Ackley loads my velocities are equal to a 'standard' 223 with 26" barrel and it shoots my 5.56 AR load (77gr Noslers & 8208XBR) 3/4MOA or better.

I do not think a muzzle brake is necessary for a 223 as the recoil is very modest (especially in a heavier bolt gun). They do still work and allow one to easily spot their shots so if you want one rock on, but for me they aren't worth the expense and additional noise.

 

[turbo54]

KSU: A Palma or Remington Varmint contour is what you want. 22-24" makes for a very reasonably-handling rifle. 26" starts to get a little unruly, and 223 doesn't pick up much velocity from it anyway. Still, 26" is reasonable.

Consider choosing a 223AI though. Your factory 223 ammo will shoot great in the AI chamber, and when you are ready, you can reload actual AI ammo and get more performance.

You'll probably want an 8 twist, which will happily shoot anything up to 80gr. Hopefully the 223-philes will correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the bullets over 80gr start to get really finicky/particular about twist...something I think the NRA hi power folks talk aboutat my club, anyway.

I don't think the brake would do much on the 223, it barely does anything on my 6mm (6mm SLR, 26" RemVar barrel, APA Little Bastard brake). If your end game is tactical matches, though, it may be a good idea to get the brake anyway so yo can practice shooting with the noise/concussion/blast they produce. Having never used a brake for years, it took me a while to get accustomed.

 

[ksu395]

KSU: A Palma or Remington Varmint contour is what you want. 22-24" makes for a very reasonably-handling rifle. 26" starts to get a little unruly, and 223 doesn't pick up much velocity from it anyway. Still, 26" is reasonable.

Consider choosing a 223AI though. Your factory 223 ammo will shoot great in the AI chamber, and when you are ready, you can reload actual AI ammo and get more performance.

You'll probably want an 8 twist, which will happily shoot anything up to 80gr. Hopefully the 223-philes will correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the bullets over 80gr start to get really finicky/particular about twist...something I think the NRA hi power folks talk aboutat my club, anyway.

I don't think the brake would do much on the 223, it barely does anything on my 6mm (6mm SLR, 26" RemVar barrel, APA Little Bastard brake). If your end game is tactical matches, though, it may be a good idea to get the brake anyway so yo can practice shooting with the noise/concussion/blast they produce. Having never used a brake for years, it took me a while to get accustomed.

Wow - thanks for opening my eyes to the 223AI. I had no idea that I could shoot my NATO match rounds accurately in that chamber and fire-form AI cartridges at the same time. This sounds almost too good to be true - are there any downsides (e.g. feeding from a mag)? Also, are there any AI specifics that I should provide to the barrel maker?

As to bullet weight, I have read plenty of stories about guys who tried 90s and went back to 80s, so I had ruled out the 90gr (very long OAL, too). According to the Berger site, an 8 twist is sufficient for their 82gr bullets, so I figured that I might give them a try, too. Krieger also offers a 7.7 twist - is there any reason to not go a little faster than the "sufficient" 8 (in a 22-24" barrel)?

Thanks again for all the educational advice.

-Kris

 

[BoilerUP]

Sanity check, please: .223 bolt gun build

I've got a box of 90gr VLDs inbound, we'll see how well they do. I'm expecting at least 2700fps from my 22" 1:7 223AI (I get 2890 with 80s on a mild load of 8208XBR, 2930fps with a warm load of Varget, 3000fps with a hot load of XBR). The 80gr Amax is a great bullet...when they are being made.

I'd think 0.077-0.088" freebore to be ideal for 80-82s in an Ackley. 1:7 isn't necessary unless you want to try 90s but won't hurt (mine is 1:7), 1:7.7 is probably ideal as its a bit more stability for longer 80s.

Take your Mk262, chamber, shoot, you now have formed 223AI brass that you can easily reload down the road for greater performance. And, you'll trim that brass pretty much never.

 

[Graham]

Sanity check, please: .223 bolt gun build

First, go no heavier than a medium Palma.

Second, you don't have the case capacity in a .223 to effectively use 26" of barrel. 22-24" is enough length to burn all of even the slowest powders.

Third, an 8-twist is fine, but it should be a true 8, not a fractional 8.

Fourth, throat it long and shoot 80vlds to the lands from the box mag. There isn't enough powder room to get the BC benefit from the 90s, and they won't shoot in an 8-twist barrel.

Fifth, forget .223AI. The benefit of a 223 bolt gun is ammo availability, versatility and barrel life, all of which you lose in return for only a small gain in performance. One can ague that the performance gain isn't small, but a properly set-up .223AI is a completely different rifle for a different purpose and a much greater commitment to run.

 

[Niles Coyote]

I have a 1:7 twist 223 with a m40/m24 contour barrel 21.75"... It is a heavy beast and my next one will have a barrel no heavier than a varmint/sendero contour. The 7 twist has worked well using most of the 80, 77, 75, 69 grain bullets out there but I have not tried 90's... when I get down to the lighter weights (55 and less) it gets very picky on what will shoot well. My chamber is set to touch the lands at about a OAL of 2.500 with the 80 A-max. Running H4895 I can get around 2830-2850 fps, varget runs a little slower... around 2790ish with a compressed load.

My next 223 build will be a 223AI with a varmint or lighter contour and about 24". Glock24 has a light palma contour on his 223 and that is nice (weight and balance) so I may go with something similar. He is running, IIRC, a 18" 1:8 with berger 82's and shot some impressive groups out to 1000y on a steel plate range we went too.

As for twist you should be fine with anything in the 7-8 twist rate with the 80 grain class bullets. The only exception may be 80 a-max if you are shooting at sea level in a near zero degree climate. I have run stability models on JBM with an 8 twist and the 80 A-max, coming to the conclusion that I'd want 7.5 for it to work for me all year long with that bullet... YMMV. There is no need for a brake, my rifle barely moves when discharged. Its recoil is more than a sporter weight 22mag but not by much. I have it in a standard manners t4 stock with a 6-24x vortex viper, IIRC I am around 14 pounds... the last stock added another 2 pounds to that (Mcmillan A5 sniper fill w/ the saddle cheek thing).

 

[BoilerUP]

Fifth, forget .223AI. The benefit of a 223 bolt gun is ammo availability, versatility and barrel life, all of which you lose in return for only a small gain in performance.

How does a 223 Ackley lose ammo availability and versatility vs. a standard 223 chamber?

 

[Graham]

How does a 223 Ackley lose ammo availability and versatility vs. a standard 223 chamber?

There's no factory ammunition available.

 

[MitchK]

Here's mine. Remington, Manners T6A, with Bartlein HV finished at 28".

5 shots at 900 yds. The bullseye is 1 moa.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

I just had a .223 built to match my comp rifle to use as a trainer. I went back and forth with .223 or .223AI. I knew I wanted to shoot the 80gr VLD's and I knew that if I could get close to 2,900fps, I'd be happy with it for my purposes. I went with a Bartlien M24 1:8tw (contour to match my comp rifle). I had it cut at 22". I put a brake on it because I wanted the barrel threaded for my suppressor and I wasnt able to just have a thread cap made at the time. I'm very pleased with how it turned out and it's performance.

Lapua brass
80gr VDL
25.4gr Varget (no pressure in this rifle)
CCI 450's
Avg: 2,890fps (verified on steel). This is a new barrel and I expect it to speed up just a hair more after 100-150 rounds.
Loaded to just touch the lands and fits perfect in a AICS mag.

 

[BoilerUP]

There's no factory ammunition available.

Well that is a true statement, there is no 223 Ackley Improved factory ammunition available.

If only one could use factory 223 ammunition in a 223 Ackley chamber...its almost like that was totally overlooked...

 

[Downzero]

There's no factory ammunition available.

Sure there is. It's called .223 Rem and 5.56x45.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Fifth, forget .223AI. The benefit of a 223 bolt gun is ammo availability, versatility and barrel life, all of which you lose in return for only a small gain in performance. One can ague that the performance gain isn't small, but a properly set-up .223AI is a completely different rifle for a different purpose and a much greater commitment to run.

I agree with everything else you said but as a person who's on his third 223AI I can tell you none of this is fact. If I don't have anything loaded I shoot factory ammo and get accuracy at least as good as the same ammo fired in a 223 chamber and I'm making brass at the same time. This is how I make all my 223AI brass, by shooting factory 223. The gain is small if you're using lighter bullets but if you're running the high BC where every bit counts it makes a huge difference, especially when you get way out there. There is also no difference in barrel life, I put 7k rounds through a PAI built 223AI I had on top of how many thousands of rounds the original owner out through it and it still shot as good as day one when I regretfully sold it. My Tikka T3 that I have rechambered in 223AI has about 3500-4k through it and no issues.

From a loading standpoint it is one of the easiest wildcats to load for, you just shoot factory ammo during your normal practice or hunting. It gets no simpler than that. I also like the reduced case prep aspect just as much as the performance. You fireform and trim once and the primer pocket will loosen up 20 firing later without ever having to be trimmed. Show me another chambering that will do that.

223AI is a wise choice even if you don't load for it right away. There is absolutely no disadvantage even if you ever only shot factory 223 through it.

 

[Graham]

Sanity check, please: .223 bolt gun build

Overlooked in the eagerness of some to pounce, is that if you shoot .223 Rem in a 223AI chamber it's still .223 Rem.

 

[turbo54]

Overlooked in the eagerness of some to pounce, is that if you shoot .223 Rem in a 223AI chamber it's still .223 Rem.

No one is "pouncing" on you, just sharing their difference in opinion.

No one suggested 223 ammo fired from a 223AI chamber will perform like 223AI.

Your factory 223 ammo will shoot great in the AI chamber, and when you are ready, you can reload actual AI ammo and get more performance.

 

[Graham]

No one is "pouncing" on you, just sharing their difference in opinion.

No one suggested 223 ammo fired from a 223AI chamber will perform like 223AI.

Did you just suggest that someone suggested that anyone suggested, because no one suggested that anyone suggested...

 

[mallrat]

Somebody suggested that firing .223 or 5.56 in a 223AI chamber would fire form the brass to 223AI specs, which could then be reloaded to 223AI specs, with the performance suggested by such. At least that's what I'm suggesting.

 

[LRI]

It doesn't take a 1:7 ROT to control a 75G Amax.

More like an 8 or even 9 twist will do it.


Wylde chamber sure does a nice job on a lot of applications for 223.

 

[BoilerUP]

Somebody suggested that firing .223 or 5.56 in a 223AI chamber would fire form the brass to 223AI specs, which could then be reloaded to 223AI specs, with the performance suggested by such. At least that's what I'm suggesting.

Pretty much.

Any 223 or 5.56 loaded ammo + 223AI chamber = gun goes bang, odds good the groups are somewhere between acceptable and great, and formed 223AI brass that can be then reloaded to full-house Ackley loads or sold to people that don't want to take the time to fireform.

 

[Downzero]

Overlooked in the eagerness of some to pounce, is that if you shoot .223 Rem in a 223AI chamber it's still .223 Rem.

Correction: it's 223 Rem when it goes in, and once fired 223AI brass when it comes out.

 

[ksu395]

AFAIK, there is no commercial .223/5.56 factory ammo with bullets heavier than 77gr. So, in order to use 80/82gr bullets, I will need to reload, regardless of Rem or AI. So, it seems like an AI barrel gives me the best of both worlds. If I do go the 223AI route, how deep should I have the throat cut: 2.4, 2.5, other?

 

[lw8]

What chamber did Crane use on the MK 12 SPR? It is designed for 77gr SMKs.

 

[ackleyfan]

For the 75 Amax skip the 9" and go 8"

 

[SporterII]

I have a 24" 5.75 8 twist. 75 Amax mostly. I think that 24" gets me good speed. 2870 with no pressure to be seen. 8tw should get you thru that stash of 77's just fine.

 

[downlow]

pm coming your way.

 

[downlow]

Here's mine. Remington, Manners T6A, with Bartlein HV finished at 28".

5 shots at 900 yds. The bullseye is 1 moa.

Very nice. I don't see the dog's hearing protection.

To the OP................I don't see where a brake is needed for your build/intended purpose.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I believe, personally that 1:8" twist and 75gr bullets are going to perform at any distance but those which stretch the ballistic limits well beyond the range where wind skills begin to constitute the major part of consistent accuracy. That's not something even the best equipment can buy you. Odds are good that your 77gr service rifle ammo will work OK with that configuration; but really, building a precision rifle without becoming a proficient handloader is akin to putting a truck motor into a Ferrari.

Rather than building an 'ultimate' rifle, I would simply get hold of a Savage 12FV, a moderately nice press and dies for .223, buy a thousand HDY 75gr HPBT Match and a mess of Varget, and learn how to coax the accuracy out of that barrel and bullet, using your saved brass from the 77gr factory loads. Start with your 77gr ammo as a benchmark, and see if the 75gr Hornady can do better. It most likely can.

Skills first, rifle next.

Greg

 

[sinister]

.223 Rem, 5.56, and .223 AI are (generally) economical rounds. You have to stay up on your winds, but it is eminently do-able.

Sage advice on using a moderate-weight barrel. If you ever plan to walk, hike, or move with a #9 it will become annoying, quickly. I think a Sendero/Rem Varmint (generally a #5.5 profile) or Light Palma would be just fine. You won't need the brake but it might help for self-spotting if you don't have a spotter or coach.

600 yards with a 77 will be just fine, depending on the size of the targets you'll be shooting at. If you read winds like a wizard you're set.

1000-yard M16 competition shows the 80-grainer will get there, but if you can tolerate the weight and length anything over 24 inches to maybe 28 gives you a bullet with better velocity down-range.

1-8 and 1-7 twist will work. If you go 1-6.5 you can shoot 90-grainers (and 77s seem to like it).

If you're going to push the 5.56 to 1,000 you'll want to hand load. 223/5.56 brass is everywhere, but I know folks who take the extra steps to shoot 223 Ackley Improved.

There are quite a few bullets that can do it. 1,000 is a ways, and I assume you'll have good venues to practice and develop data.

 

[JByrd]

Just a thought, there are some awesome 223 ackley trainers that show up in for sale forum on a fairly regular basis. Ready to roll sometimes with dies/components. I bet you would find a rifle b4 your build would get done. 223 ai is an awesome cartridge for multiple applications.

 

[ksu395]

First of all, thanks to everyone that took the time to share your experience with me. I can't take all the advice, as some of it is contradictory, but I do appreciate it all the same.

I definitely did consider buying an OTS (e.g. Tikka T3) or used rifle, but I really enjoy building things with my hands, and I feel that I get a much better understanding of the entire system that way.

Here is my current barrel plan: Krieger SS, Rem Varmint contour, 23", 1:7.7" twist, 223AI chamber throated for 2.400" OAL, no brake

I do understand that I will need to become a proficient hand loader to maximize my results, but I plan to work through my large stash of factory match ammo first.

Thanks again!

-Kris

 

[SporterII]

You will enjoy that and learn a bunch. Good luck.

 

[BoilerUP]

Here is my current barrel plan: Krieger SS, Rem Varmint contour, 23", 1:7.7" twist, 223AI chamber throated for 2.400" OAL, no brake

Throated for 2.400" COAL with what bullet?

0.077-0.080" freebore is what I would run for 75-82gr VLDs fitting in an AICS polymer 223 mag, and you'll still have good performance with 77gr SMK/Noslers.

 

[diverdon]

I would take a good hard look at the CADEX unit Snipers Hide special. Strike 30 - Drake Associates Inc.

 

[KelsonAK]

Just had Chad build me something like that. Mine is a little different. Standard Palma, 7 twist, throated for 80gr Amax to work in an AICS magazine. Intent is to use it for F T/R midrange and across the course - so I opted to steer away from an Ackley. Went with a longer tube (27" if I remember correctly) for the longer sight radius when I put on the iron sights as much as the wee bit extra speed. A break isn't needed - the thing just sits there upon firing. I opted for the 'match' chamber, but if Chad says the Wylde is good to go - it's good to go. I think your last posting on your plans sounds just dandy. Standard Palma and Rem Varmint are pretty damned close, and my OAL is just a bit longer than 2.400 with the Amax, but under the 2.55 max with the magazine.

 

[Drake Associates]

Our Strike Dual 30 chassis supports that build no problem.

 

[ksu395]

Finalized

Thanks again for all the great advice. I just mailed my R700SA action to Greg Young at Southern Precision Rifles (bugholes.com) for the blueprinting and barrel work. Here is the final config:
Krieger SS, Rem Varmint contour, 24", 1:7.7" twist, 223AI, 0.080" freebore (planning to use 80gr VLDs, AICS polymer 223 mags)

Also, I have made the plunge into reloading sooner rather than later. So far, I have: Berger reloading manual, BR4 primers, and 80gr VLDs. Hopefully I will score some Varget before I burn through my entire stash of mk262.

-Kris

 

[BoilerUP]

I think you are going to be VERY happy.

Is Greg gonna do load development for you? If not, 25.6-26.6gr Varget will probably fix you up nicely in the 223AI.

 

[flatland1]

Kris, I'd bet my bottom dollar that you're gonna be happy with your 223AI build. I did mine myself a couple of years ago, using a M700 action, Krieger 1-7tw in Rem sender/varmint contour, finished at 26". I bought a 223AI reamer from Dave Kiff at PTG, telling him my intended use, and as it worked out, Berger 90VLDs seated to AICS mag length shoot great, with several sub-1/2 min groups on steel at 1000yds. I bedded mine in a McM adj A5, using R&D DBM, a Jewell HVR, EGW 20 MOA sloped base, and a Vortex Viper 6-24x50 PST in TPS TSR rings.

1st time I took this rig to a local practical steel match, I managed to get hits on the 1300 & 1400yd targets, even though the Vortex ran out of internal elevation while dialing up from 1300 to 1400. Used the 5 MOA hashmark on the reticle, and got the hit at 1400. Even with electronic muffs and the wind from 1:00, none of us saw or heard the impact of the little 90s at either 1300 or 1400, so I was as surprised to find the hits as the guy next to me, who was shooting the other set of targets at the same time. I had to show him my ammo box when we got back to the firing line to convince him that yes, a 223 is capable of whacking steel at that distance.

 

[ksu395]

I think you are going to be VERY happy.

Is Greg gonna do load development for you? If not, 25.6-26.6gr Varget will probably fix you up nicely in the 223AI.

Thanks for the tips; I didn't know that he offered such a service. I will chat with him about it. Duplicating a known-good load may be a good first stop on my reloading journey.

 

[ksu395]

1st time I took this rig to a local practical steel match, I managed to get hits on the 1300 & 1400yd targets, even though the Vortex ran out of internal elevation while dialing up from 1300 to 1400. Used the 5 MOA hashmark on the reticle, and got the hit at 1400. Even with electronic muffs and the wind from 1:00, none of us saw or heard the impact of the little 90s at either 1300 or 1400, so I was as surprised to find the hits as the guy next to me, who was shooting the other set of targets at the same time. I had to show him my ammo box when we got back to the firing line to convince him that yes, a 223 is capable of whacking steel at that distance.

The San Diego area is a bit thin on ranges at all, much less long range ones, and certainly nothing at 1400y. If I drive an hour, I can get out to 890 yards, so that will be my benchmark.

 

[darrenk75b]

Greg knows his way around a 223ai. I am sure yours will be excellent.

 

[MarinePMI]

Also, I have made the plunge into reloading sooner rather than later. So far, I have: Berger reloading manual, BR4 primers, and 80gr VLDs. Hopefully I will score some Varget before I burn through my entire stash of mk262.

-Kris

Kris,

If you have the time, a quick (1 hour each way) drive up to Rancho Cucamonga will put you at Ammo Brothers. They generally have a VERY wide array of powders and primers, for a fairly reasonable costs (especially compared to Turners or some of the other local stores). Wasn't sure if you already knew about them, but its worth the trip if you reload; I usually go two or three times a year. I'm in RB, so it's a straight shot for me up the 215.

 

[ksu395]

If you have the time, a quick (1 hour each way) drive up to Rancho Cucamonga will put you at Ammo Brothers. They generally have a VERY wide array of powders and primers, for a fairly reasonable costs (especially compared to Turners or some of the other local stores). Wasn't sure if you already knew about them, but its worth the trip if you reload; I usually go two or three times a year. I'm in RB, so it's a straight shot for me up the 215.

Thanks for the tip. I called and they are out of stock right now, but they had Varget as recently as last Friday, so I will keep checking back.