Gunsmithing Savage copper fouling.......I think!

[captnmo]

I just started breaking in my new Savage 10FCP in .308. I only used Hoppes no. 9 at the range. When I got back, I looked down the barrel and noticed what looked like a scratch in the barrel. I shined a pen light in there and noticed a lot of copper-colored streaks....copper fouling right? So I searched high a low and finally got my hands on some Shooter's Choice copper solvent. I put a couple wet patches through, let it sit for about 10 minutes (according to the directions) and then began to patch it out.....CLEAN! None of that "copper" came out. The patch was clean. The copper-streaks are still there.

Am I missing something or doing something wrong when trying to clean this out? Maybe copper doesn't come after one or two applications....Or is there another problem I'm unaware of? I understand Savage barrels do have a tendency to these probelms so any help is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[bohem]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

I like Wipe-Out. It's a foaming copper solvent, you plug up the crown with a paper towel, foam in the cleaner, plug up the chamber and let it sit for 12 hours. The rifles just about wipe clean in 1 pass.

 

[chadg]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I like Wipe-Out. It's a foaming copper solvent, you plug up the crown with a paper towel, foam in the cleaner, plug up the chamber and let it sit for 12 hours. The rifles just about wipe clean in 1 pass. </div></div>

+1,shooters choice will work it just takes a while.
How was the rifle shooting????My savage used to do the same thing except it was more towards the crown.
My cleaning procedure now consists of shooting untill the accuracy falls off usually in about 5-6oo rounds.Imho dont worry about the copper.If its there it needs to be there.It wont hurt anything.

 

[idahojay]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Barnes CR-10,,,this stuff works great. Youll have blue patchs coming out right off the bat.

Jay Seaquist

 

[Red_SC]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

 

[HotIce]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Use PatchOut (or WipeOut - same thing in foam form) or KG-12.
If the barrel fouls too much, you may want to try a few fine grained Tubb Final Finish rounds.

 

[SpotcheckBilly]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

As others have said, don't be too concerned unless you have an accuracy problem.

 

[m1k3]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

On a stock Savage barrel, more than likely you are hurting your accuracy by over cleaning. I own 5 Savage barrels and everyone of them shoots better after 50 rounds through them. I haven't cleaned the 308 barrel in 300+ rounds and it easily shoots sub-MOA. The copper is still visible in the muzzle but every time I clean it, it takes another 50 shots to get back to near MOA.

If there is a visible scratch and shoots poorly from the beginning, you might try calling Savage.

Good luck!

Mike

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Just shoot them to the 100rd stage, and clean as normal. They have some reputation for copper fouling, but aside from making cleaning a bit more of a chore, there's no big difference between them and other barrels.

IMHO, getting all the copper out is counterproductive. A couple or three passes with patches and copper solvent is enough. What remains is not a detriment to accuracy. Just make sure there's no (months) long periods of sitting without oil in the bore, and all is well.

Think of it as maintaining a reasonable level of copper fouling, rather than meticulously removing all foreign matter. A) it's not foreign, that's where it lives, and B) Nobody gets it all out anyway, no matter how hard they try. Trying too hard is no better than neglecting it completely.

Greg

 

[Kells81]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jay Seaquist</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Barnes CR-10,,,this stuff works great. Youll have blue patchs coming out right off the bat.

Jay Seaquist </div></div>

CR-10 is the shit, but you have to stay on top of it and make sure you get all of it out after your finished. I usually run 4 dry patches after I am done then run some Hoppes just to protect the metal if its a CM barrel. KG also works pretty well but I am a CR-10 whore

 

[captnmo]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Thanks guys! I'm not a big fan of over-cleaning by any means. But since it's a match barrel, the advice I received was go by the GAP break-in procedure. I'll admit, I'm not that anal about cleaning...hence just using Hoppes no. 9 at the range and trying to clean out the copper. But that makes sense about normal deposits of copper. But shouldn't the break-in be completed as perscribed or does anyone know something to the contrary?

As far as accuracy, I can't give an honest assesment. Only a few rounds into the break-in. I'll be back at the range this weekend.

 

[CaptLink]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

You may not want to thorough clean your gun every time but you should at least put some clp and a patch down after every shooting session the bore scope doesn't lie about pitting a new barrel.

 

[chadg]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captnmo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys! I'm not a big fan of over-cleaning by any means. But since it's a match barrel, the advice I received was go by the GAP break-in procedure. I'll admit, I'm not that anal about cleaning...hence just using Hoppes no. 9 at the range and trying to clean out the copper. But that makes sense about normal deposits of copper. But shouldn't the break-in be completed as perscribed or does anyone know something to the contrary?

As far as accuracy, I can't give an honest assesment. Only a few rounds into the break-in. I'll be back at the range this weekend. </div></div>


Ok captnmo maybe i shouldnt be telling you this but hey what the hell.......break in procedure........MYTH........Just shoot the damn thing.I tried a crazy assed break in procedure ONCE.....Call me lazy but it just seemed like to much work for not enough results for me to even notice.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Break-in simply accelerates the process in a more deliberate manner. Fire-honing the bore isn't the only thing that happens, though, it is also accompanied by throat erosion. It's debatable whether this is good or bad. I figure if it's debatable, it's hard to know.

Putting it this way...; I used to, now I don't anymore. I figure if it's hard to know whether it helps, why am I doing it? I mean, if it's all just going to happen anyway...; what's the point?

Greg

 

[border_reiver]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Are you seeing the copper 'streaks' at the muzzle end?

 

[captnmo]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: __JR__</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you seeing the copper 'streaks' at the muzzle end? </div></div>

Yeah, they're at the muzzle end and as far in as I can see with a pen light. Sounds like this is a normal thing.

Just got back from the range. I'm happy to say Savage shoots as good as they say =).

 

[SOC308]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

i use wipe out patch out w/ accelerator in my savage 6.5-284, it fouls like crazy but it shoots lights out, i totally clean it every hundred or so rds.

 

[border_reiver]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

to see the bore and groove clearly at muzzle end, shine the light thru from the chamber end.

 

[captnmo]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Ok, gotta revive this topic. Been shooting the Savage, but not a lot. Probably only a hundred rounds or so and the barrel is a copper mine. The grooves are pretty much all copper. So much so that you can't even see the difference in the lands and grooves at the crown. And I'm losing accuracy. I've been shooting standard ammo off the shelves and not had the same problems in other barrels.

This isn't the quality that everyone said Savage was and I'm kinda disapointed.

I've got some Montana Extreme and Wipe out on the way to get the copper out, but where do I go from here? I've heard several different schools of thought on Tubbs final finish bullets and considering that. Your thoughts?

 

[larbhills]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captnmo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, gotta revive this topic. Been shooting the Savage, but not a lot. Probably only a hundred rounds or so and the barrel is a copper mine. The grooves are pretty much all copper. So much so that <span style="font-weight: bold">you can't even see the difference in the lands and grooves at the crown</span>. And I'm losing accuracy. I've been shooting standard ammo off the shelves and not had the same problems in other barrels.

This isn't the quality that everyone said Savage was and I'm kinda disapointed.

I've got some Montana Extreme and Wipe out on the way to get the copper out, but where do I go from here? I've heard several different schools of thought on Tubbs final finish bullets and considering that. Your thoughts? </div></div>

Are you saying that the grooves are filled in or just completely copper colored?

 

[aggiesig]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

sweets 7.62...

Use a well ventilated area and get ready to see some blue patches =]

Don't sweat owning a savage they are good rifles, The first one I had won me several hundred bucks at the range from guys who were shooting guns that were 4-5 times the price. To quote my long range shooting teacher:

"I'd rather have a kid whose shot 50,000 rounds through a savage thats he's drug around by the barrel all his life, than one who bought an AI for his first gun as a student"

Clean the thing out, shoot the piss out of it, as you shoot it it will smooth out. If you get sick of the cleaning screw on another barrel, any aftermarket barrel will be cleaner on the inside than a factory and they are easy to replace on a savage.

When you get ready to move up, keep it as a hunting/ loaner gun. You'll always remember that first rifle.

 

[aggiesig]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

if your savage has you going mad and you don't believe my first post about aftermarket vs. factory barrels watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA

 

[acloco]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

EVERY barrel has it's own personality. Some factory barrels are great out of the box, in every way, and some are not...regardless of manufacturer.

AFTER removing the carbon fouling (carb cleaner works ok), I use a plastic brush with blue magic metal polish (NO grit!!!) after wetting the bore with Hoppes #9 or your favorite barrel cleaner. Pass brush through several times with the muzzle tipped at a slight downward angle.

Brush out, clean with wet patch, and continue on. You need to get the barrel to smooth up as indicated in the video posted by aggiesig.

 

[karagias]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Another vote for Wipe Out. I love that stuff but before I started using it, I used JB Bore Cleaning Compound, which is essentially just a lapping compound and Kroil. I shoot an RPA match rifle with a 34" barrel chambered in 308 Win. In now has over 6000 rounds through it and still drives tacks. It been cleaned approximately 400 shot intervals using only JB and Kroil. It never fouls. I use Wipe Out on the rifles that do.

 

[tman300wm]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

+1 on WhipeOut foaming cleaner. Use a nylon brush, a chamber guide, a quality cleaning rod (like a Dewey graphite) and (as Mr. Greg Langelius said) don't clean too often. In fact, I would recommend cleaning at the 300 round mark.

Over cleaning the barrel will have an effect on accuracy. Improper cleaning method can damage the throat, crown, lands, and grooves of a barrel and will reduce accuarcy and barrel life. You have to find a point where your rifle needs to be cleaned because accuracy is falling off. Case and point: I regularly shoot tactical rifle matches and I shoot anywhere between 150 to 200 rounds in the two or three weeks of training I do prior to the match, and then I normally shoot 100 to 150 rounds at the match. I don't clean between my training sessions and the match. I shoot the match with a well fouled barrel. I find my groups are much better after I have run quite a number of rounds down the tube.

 

[cav has been]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

My Savage in 6.5 X 284 shoots well but accuracy drops noticably after 80-90 rounds. My solution? Wipe-out, clean the P out of it, shoot 5 foulers and hi de ho good neighbor it is gtg for another 80 rnds. With this calibers reputation for short barrel life I am using the factory barrel as a learning tool, for load development etc. When it goes away I see a shiny new Lothar Walthers pre chambered tube in it's future.

On a side note; If I could find a use for that purdy purple/blue muck that the Wipe-out chases out of the barrel........

 

[AUJohn]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Real solvents like Sweets do a great job on Copper.
Powder solvents do a great job on powder.
Many solvents claim to do both, very few do.

Clean it, shoot it till it needs to be cleaned again.


Cleaning properly DOES NO DAMAGE* and the people telling you it does simply have NFI about proper cleaning.
Clean when it needs it. "Run in" often gives you a gain on factory barrels like Savages which are bloody rough things indeed. You keep the build up down while learning how it acts.



*Far less damage than shooting it. Do we not shoot as it damages the gun? Do we not clean and forget about rust or accuracy loss? All very well if you can't tell when your accuracy is going due to lack of ability or your large targets (Mr Rock seems to be fashionable) are so easy to hit you can double or triple group sizes and still hit it. I suppose you can always find a bigger rock too!

 

[captnmo]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: larbhills</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you saying that the grooves are filled in or just completely copper colored? </div></div>

As far as I can tell, yes.

Good stuff guys. I've got some Sweets, Montana Extreme and Wipe-out on the way. Maybe a little excessive, but I thought I'd try and see what works best. I'll give it a good cleaning, start over with no copper in it and see where it is from there. I'll put some quality ammo through it to get a true indication of where the accuracy peaks and falls.

 

[AUJohn]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

One of my Savages did it for 200 or so rounds. You could look down the barrel and SEE the copper. Initial run in and regular cleaning fixed the problem and I now don't clean it unless I need to.

Pity the barrel didn't know run in does not do anything and didn't actually help at all

 

[larbhills]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captnmo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: larbhills</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you saying that the grooves are filled in or just completely copper colored? </div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">As far as I can tell, yes</span>.

Good stuff guys. I've got some Sweets, Montana Extreme and Wipe-out on the way. Maybe a little excessive, but I thought I'd try and see what works best. I'll give it a good cleaning, start over with no copper in it and see where it is from there. I'll put some quality ammo through it to get a true indication of where the accuracy peaks and falls. </div></div>

Sorry, but yes to which one?

 

[captnmo]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Sorry. It appears they are completely filled in.

 

[larbhills]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Dang it! That's not good. I have seen revolvers lead the grooves completely up when shooting non jacketed bullets but never a rifle. What bullets are you shooting? I think you have a bullet problem.

 

[Clark]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

I started out trying to clean out Copper fouling 15 years ago with Sweet's 7.62.

I have tried:
*Sweet's 7.62
*Shooter's Choice
*GT-40 from Calhoon
*50BMG
*Montana Extreme
*Wipe Out
*Butch's Bore Shine
*Pro Shot Copper Solvent II
*KG-12

I was hunting in the 2010 season with a bunch of guys who are handloaders, amateur gunsmiths and self appointed gun experts, yours truly included.
We had a Copper fouled barrel cleaning contest.
I saw myself as the clear winner with my fast technique:
1) Clean out the bore with a wet patch of any solvent, to get the Carbon fouling out.
2) Dry patch
3) Wet patch of KG-12 to etch the edges of the Copper.
4) Wait a couple minutes.
5) Dry patch.
6) Patch with Flitz on top and Kroil around the edges.
7) Stroke 10 times with a Bronze brush that measures, with calipers, larger than the groove diameter of the bore.
8) Dry patch
9) Inspect muzzle, with broad spectrum light entering the muzzle at 45 degrees, look for Copper or any red color.
10) If any red is found, start over.

At 15 minutes per cycle, I could clean badly fouled bores in 30 or 45 minutes of hard work.

Another faction of hunters put Hoppe's No 9 in the bore and waited 24 hours...repeat...repeat
They claimed that I was wearing out the barrels and brushes, and refused to admit defeat.

What does it all mean?
1) If you have had enough anecdotal non sense from me, you can read something more objective:
link to snipers hide thread where Kombayotch does controlled test of Copper solvents

2) I used to not believe in break in procedures. I now believe that if the barrel fouls more when it is new, and I clean out the Copper more often when it is new, I am following a break in procedure whether I believe in it or not.

 

[chain]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

I have 1900 rds thru my factory barreled savage 300 win. Accuracy is as good as it ever has been, maybe better. I clean every 100 rds or so. I use Bore Tech eliminator and a bit of Iosso paste. I work at cleaning it until I think is enough, but I am sure I could still get another "blue patch " out of it if I tried. I think my accruacy improved a bit when I started using the Iosso. A guy told me about it one day when I was in Colroado shooting in the Pawnee Grasslands but I degress, sorry.

 

[Clark]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

I have one of these and they are as advertised.

 

[captnmo]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: larbhills</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dang it! That's not good. I have seen revolvers lead the grooves completely up when shooting non jacketed bullets but never a rifle. What bullets are you shooting? I think you have a bullet problem. </div></div>

I did consider the bullets, but I've been using factory ammo, and nothing too much on the low end. I fired the same ammo through my AR-10 without the same problem.

 

[cav has been]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!





I have one of these and they are as advertised. [/quote]
Clark, I know you referenced the bore jag but, your quote above the picture of the self propelled gun gave me pause to chuckle. With a stack of beehive rounds nearby ones beer box would be safe from the heathens!

 

[Clark]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pimpgun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have one of these and they are as advertised. </div></div>
your quote above the picture of the self propelled gun gave me pause to chuckle. </div></div>

They are now possessed only by museums and third world country armies.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2857815.pdf

Not many engineers can understand how the barrel balance works.

"not as clumsy or random as a blaster. An elegant weapon, from a more civilized age"

 

[xs hedspace]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

I had a 308 Savage that copper fouled so bad that the first 5 shots were 3/4" group, the next 5 made 1 1/2", and after that it was 2-3" groups at 100. Finally ran 4-5 tight patches through (after removing the copper with Sweets) with heavy duty auto rubbing compound, back and forth, with emphasis on the throat. Cured the copper problem, shot 3/4-1" groups from then on. Sporter barrel, looked like venetian blinds thru the borescope, it had so many reamer marks.

 

[larbhills]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Back before I found out that barrel break in was no longer in vogue, I broke in the barrel of my 10PC. Nothing crazy, just something like ten rounds with a cleaning in between each round then groups of three with cleanings in between. Up to about 25 rounds total. I would clean with Hoppe's #9 and then Sweets each time. I don't even bother cleaning it any more unless I know I got moisture in the bore. I have around 500 down the tube and I get very little copper evidence at this point. Maybe them crude Savages are the ones that benefit from a break in.

 

[captnmo]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: xs hedspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a 308 Savage that copper fouled so bad that the first 5 shots were 3/4" group, the next 5 made 1 1/2", and after that it was 2-3" groups at 100. Finally ran 4-5 tight patches through (after removing the copper with Sweets) with heavy duty auto rubbing compound, back and forth, with emphasis on the throat. Cured the copper problem, shot 3/4-1" groups from then on. Sporter barrel, looked like venetian blinds thru the borescope, it had so many reamer marks. </div></div>

You just described my barrel to the letter. I was wondering about those markes that looked so crude, but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one and she still has potential.

 

[Clark]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

When the bore looks like an inverted rat tailed file even in the grooves, I always imagine that the rifling button chattered.

When the bore looks rough only on top of the lands, I always imagine that the drill was dull.

The worst sewer pipe barrel will shoot sub moa, if allowed to cool between shots and the Copper is cleaned out. The problem is that a barrel can foul in 5 shots and take 3 hours of wearing out brushes to get clean again.

Some cheap factory barrels don't warp when hot and are slow to foul and fast to clean. Most are not. We pay $300 to get custom barrels that are stress relieved and factory lapped, so we know we won't have these problems. Some new custom barrels foul fast anyway. Accuracy ain't easy.

 

[larbhills]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the bore looks like an inverted rat tailed file even in the grooves, I always imagine that the rifling button chattered.

When the bore looks rough only on top of the lands, I always imagine that the drill was dull.

The worst sewer pipe barrel will shoot sub moa, if allowed to cool between shots and the Copper is cleaned out. The problem is that a barrel can foul in 5 shots and take 3 hours of wearing out brushes to get clean again.

Some cheap factory barrels don't warp when hot and are slow to foul and fast to clean. Most are not. We pay $300 to get custom barrels that are stress relieved and factory lapped, so we know we won't have these problems. Some new custom barrels foul fast anyway. Accuracy ain't easy. </div></div>

When I started the break in on my Savage, I could both feel and hear the chatter marks when I pushed a brush through. I believe it has been reduced at this point but it is still there. This rifle is definitely a sub MOA shooter.

 

[xs hedspace]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Well, the auto rubbing compound made the venetian blinds shiny, and stopped most of the copper problem. But I still put a Krieger barrel on it when I used the action to build a Palma rifle. Cleaned the 800 and 900yd targetswith it a few times.....the 1K, in my dreams.

 

[Caduceus]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: captnmo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just started breaking in my new Savage 10FCP in .308. I only used Hoppes no. 9 at the range. When I got back, I looked down the barrel and noticed what looked like a scratch in the barrel. I shined a pen light in there and noticed a lot of copper-colored streaks....copper fouling right? So I searched high a low and finally got my hands on some Shooter's Choice copper solvent. I put a couple wet patches through, let it sit for about 10 minutes (according to the directions) and then began to patch it out.....CLEAN! None of that "copper" came out. The patch was clean. The copper-streaks are still there.

Am I missing something or doing something wrong when trying to clean this out? Maybe copper doesn't come after one or two applications....Or is there another problem I'm unaware of? I understand Savage barrels do have a tendency to these probelms so any help is appreciated. Thanks! </div></div>

Looks like Mpro Gun Cleaner and MPro 7 Copper Remover would be handy here. www.mpro7.com

 

[turbo54]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Interesting thread guys. I have a .308 savage as well and followed no specific break in routine. It now has around 1000 rounds through it and always has some copper colored streaks visible inside the bore. Last season I never cleaned the barrel until accuracy dropped off... that took about 400 rounds.

I use gunslick foaming bore cleaner and have found that it seems to clean up my bore with one application, a 20 minute wait and 2 patches

 

[turbo54]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Forgot to mention my savage is good for better than 1/2 moa!

 

[jeffm]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

How does copper hurt accuracy???

 

[turbo54]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

I don't really think it does... As others have mentioned, rifles don't tend to shoot so well when they are squeaky clean. Normallytakes a few fouling shots to regain your accuracy and precision.

 

[captnmo]

Re: Savage copper fouling.......I think!

Just to follow up on this thread.

I used Sweets 7.62 and was impressed with effective it was. BUT, then I tried wipe-out foam with accelerator and WOW! Cannot believe how effective that stuff was. I let it sit for about 12 hours and there isn't hardly a spot of copper that I can see.

They say that stuff isn't harmful, but I was sure to clean it all out and oil the tube.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!