Savage Model 10 223 woes.

[neeltburn]

After many years of shooting PRS matches I decided this year mostly do to the components I had on hand that I would shoot my 223 in local one day matches. As a background, I started shooting tactical/ PRS matches back in 2009 with a Sav model 10 308. I then moved to a 260 rem 700 and then a 6 Dasher. I always placed well and was a decent shooter. So the following really has me perplexed.

Background of the rifle, I had my gun smith build a 223AI barrel this barrel absolutely hammers, only issue is that the savage action didn't feed the AI cases well. I pulled it off and put a 223 Rem Hawk Hill 1-7 T barrel on it in 2020. Got married and moved to a new house and built my gun room last fall/ this spring so it sat for a while and never got a lot of use. June of this year Im ready to jump back into matches. This is where the it goes sideways.

Rifle Specs
Sav 10 Action
Hawkhill 1-7 223 Rem barrel
TBAC Ultra 7 223 can
Rifle Basix Trigger
PVA barrel nut
NSS Lug
XLR Element.
Gen II PST / Gen II Razor

Ammo Specs (after much testing)
Lapua Cases
75 ELD-Ms
22.8 of 8208
Seated 20 thou. off the lands.
2875FPS MV

Rifle shot groups .5 or less when I would practice.

Match one. Rifle is all over.. I can't consistently call my miss. Rezero scope during match, its good for a stage or 2 and then its .6 low. Shoot zero target after match and .5 low. Send scope to Vortex (PST Gen II) they send me a new one. State paralax and zero shift noted.

Match 2. Rifle is still also over but zero seems to fine with new Gen II PST. Shoot groups and they now don't seem to be as consistent. Check my seating die and notice I had an issue with setup. Setup die correctly and run a COL test. 20 thou off and touching the lands (Measured with Hornady COL gauge) both shot under .5 at 100 but 20 thou off seemed a bit more consistent. Thought I would test the rifle with a different scope so I tossed my Gen II Razor on it. Shoots great groups before match, but I ran out of ammo to fine tune my zero. Leave range with it .4/.5 low.


Match 3. Rifle is now .4/.5 high on zero range. Make adjustment and shoot a ragged hole zeroed up. First stage (45 min after zeroing) Im .5 low consistently. Move scope back to where it was in the at the beginning of the day. Start hitting some targets, woohoo I remember this used to be fun. Shoot a paper stage at 100 yards and Im exactly back to where it was at the beginning of the day at the zero range. Zero some stages and run a few great ones holding and not dialing.

Overall point of where I am.

I feel like something wonky is going on with the barrel. Is it because it is a "marksman" or light contour. Is it because its a 7t? I know the Razor is good as it just came off my 260 that doesnt do this. At this point I am not sure what to change to test it. Do I rebarrel (current barrel has maybe 700 on it. much it chasing these issues) is it the load? Does 8202 drift that much is different temps? I have never chased a rifle with these issues. I have taken my 260 and my 308 to the range and shoot them perfectly fine. What gives with the 223. I have checked ever bolt on the rifle. Double checked headspace. Closes on a go wont close on a no go. ejector and extractor removed. It just does not stay consistent, and it changes from one stage to another. Anyone have some insight? Id also bet if I took it to the range tomorrow, it would shoot a decent group.

 

[wpeach1912]

Did you check your base too? My savage wasn’t true across base screws, and I think this caused mine to shift some from day to day. It could be your scope too. I’d try a scope you know works and see if it moves. Also try shooting longer groups on and see how it moves

 

[neeltburn]

Did you check your base too? My savage wasn’t true across base screws, and I think this caused mine to shift some from day to day. It could be your scope too. I’d try a scope you know works and see if it moves. Also try shooting longer groups on and see how it moves

Razor works fine on the 260 rem. Base screws are tight. its a Seekins 20moa rail, I also checked and it sits flat on the receiver with just the front tight or just the rear tight. It does not seem to be bowed.

 

[Digetydog]

Razor works fine on the 260 rem. Base screws are tight. its a Seekins 20moa rail, I also checked and it sits flat on the receiver with just the front tight or just the rear tight. It does not seem to be bowed.

Idea before you dump the barrel:
1. Try bedding the scope rail. It a cheap, DIY thing that cannot hurt.
2. You could go to F Class John's youtube channel and try building a barrel cooler he showed on his channel, I built one and it works good
3. If you have an AccuStock, try it for a match to see if you get the same issue. Could your existing stock be letting the action move around?

 

[Mike Casselton]

Is the barrel nut tight?
If it's loose your zero will go all over the place

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I chased a similar issue in my Savage 10 in 6.5 CM last year and it was driving me crazy. Checked my scope base and rail and it was tight - then while dry firing I notice the sight picture would move when the firing pin snapped. Just a teeny bit but that was enough. Pulled the scope rail off and bought new screws, bedded the rail, and locked the screws with thread locker.

It's consistently a 0.5 MOA gun again.

VooDoo

 

[Krob95]

I chased a similar issue in my Savage 10 in 6.5 CM last year and it was driving me crazy. Checked my scope base and rail and it was tight - then while dry firing I notice the sight picture would move when the firing pin snapped. Just a teeny bit but that was enough. Pulled the scope rail off and bought new screws, bedded the rail, and locked the screws with thread locker.

It's consistently a 0.5 MOA gun again.

VooDoo

What did you use to bed the scope rail by chance?

 

[neeltburn]

What did you use to bed the scope rail by chance?

Most use JB Weld or other bedding materials.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

I used Loc-Tite but would not recommend that to others. I'd use JB Weld or some other epoxy if I do it again.

VooDoo

 

[gopherslayer]

Bed the rail first like has been suggested. It’s easy and cheap.

 

[neeltburn]

I can bed the rail that isnt an issue, my question with that theory is, if the rail not being bedded is the issue, why didn't the issue show with the 223AI barrel when it was on this action? Everything other than the 223 Rem barrel and PVA nut was on the rifle when it had the AI barrel on it.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

If it's not a problem with the scope/mount then the issue is the barrel I'd think. If it were me, I'd try everything else before I went to trying to solve a barrel problem. Maybe the scope rail got stressed in it's mounting when you installed the new barrel. Did you remove the scope rail?

My problems began shortly after I changed out the stock rail for a 20 MOA rail. For some reason shortly after that POI started moving a little at first and a lot after a few sessions but the screws were tight to spec and I could not perceive any movement when I twisted on the scope. The only reason I spotted the issue was that in dry fire I could see the scope image shift when it absolutely was rock solid on the target. I dismounted it and replaced the screws, bedded the rail, locked the screws and have never had another problem.

Your issue might well be elsewhere but I'm not sure how'd yer gonna spot that so by process of elimination I'd start with the scope/mount as. in my opinion, this is more likely. I have also experienced image displacement from a hot barrel - no mirage, just that the image on higher magnification was higher than it actually was. The more I shot, the higher my zero shifted up. Lowered the magnification and cooled the barrel - problem solved.

Is you shifting issue erratic or constant and repeatable?

VooDoo

 

[neeltburn]

I removed the scope rail when swapping barrels. I have also since pulled it and checked it verified it wasnt bowed. I am gonna go through everything once again to see if anything has come loose. I still do not suspect this is the case. It has generally shifted low, however it does not seem to be repeatable.

 

[Digetydog]

I can bed the rail that isnt an issue, my question with that theory is, if the rail not being bedded is the issue, why didn't the issue show with the 223AI barrel when it was on this action? Everything other than the 223 Rem barrel and PVA nut was on the rifle when it had the AI barrel on it.

Was your rail mounted by the factory? If so, did the person who mounted them do it correctly?

On my 6mm ARC, I noticed my scope was a little wobbly after a total of 200 shots on the barrel and discovered my rail was loose. It happens.

 

[neeltburn]

No I mounted the rail. It is a Seekins Precision 20moa. The recoil lug is tight to the action. I pulled everything apart this afternoon and it all looks good. Put it back on with some fresh loc tire.

 

[otnot]

I would also check your action screws torque and if your barrel is still free floating.

 

[MakeSawdust]

On guns without pinned rails, I glue them to the gun. I use devcon steel epoxy and do the same process as bedding except I prep the surfaces to get a good bond. After bond torque the screws to spec. Also, bed the scope rings. This has fixed any scope issues for me. It could also be the bedding in the chassis, a shitty recoil lug, or the barrel.

Could also be the scope again. I love vortex cs and their people (the ones they let deal with people.) Hard use optics wear out. I have had issues with several high end vortex scopes. They were all fixed and scopes were good for several thousand rounds before any more issues. It is something to consider and eliminate systematically. The bad part is the $$ on barrel life and ammo to figure it out.