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Sbr engraving please make this a sticky so all the people can be informed
- Thread starter allidoiswin
- Start date
Good thing im not trying to impress you, wheew i feel alot better now, i can FINALLY sleep
If going somewhere on this forum means putting some dumbass remarks or comments on a thread then i really dont want to go whereever it is your talking about. All i did was share some CORRECT information then my logic was questioned because im a noob, and some others smart ass remarks i dont remember, if thats going somewhere on this forum i will stay where i am
you must be new to gun forums. well let me educate you:
- the average gun guy is 350 lbs
- the average gun guy still believes the info he heard back in 1980 from his uncle jed's friend 2nd cousin is correct
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/bear-pit/139908-doctor-cartmann-gun-guys.html
If you have 3 stores in the Class 3 (Title II world) why would you have anything on a Form 4 (stamp). Doesnt make much sense not to use your SOT and leave it all on Form 3's etc. That doesnt compute?
BTW According to ATF regs the maker must engrave. Letters don't count unless your name is on the variance letter, there exist letters with incorrect info and that info applies only to the folks who are names in the variance/opinion letter. I have posted code section on the hide before and folks folks understand that the internet doesnt fare to well against the CFR that dictates these rules.
Also, the fact that NFA branch approves a Form 4 transfer in no way means the item is legal, also part of the CFR.
Section 479.102 of Chp 27 should help anyone out who wants to know what the code actually says.
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Why would i leave my personal items in the possesion of my store? So i could never take them home, Hmmmmm makes alot of sense to me. Ok well just like i said you Glocker17 you obviously dont own any Class 3 weapons so you like everyone else is blind to the fact that the "CODES" dont mean shit. Do you have a Carry permit? It says you cant carry you weapon to any public gathering Hmmm lets break that down thats any where more than 2 people are gathering so do you never carry your weapon around anyone? NO but the code sayssssss who gives a shit!!! Also, the fact that NFA branch approves a Form 4 transfer in no way means the item is legal (ARE YOU SERIOUS) show me an illegal Title 2 weapon stamp......... Oh wait you dont own any
"You know" you were in compliance before you engraved it, well i guess you dont but oh well.
NFA apologizes and gives verdict on SBR markings!
and here is another letter where they state that your info IS required on form 1 SBR's.
http://www.goingquiet.com/GunbrokerPhotos/ATF Markings.jpg
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65214
and here is another letter where they state that your info IS required on form 1 SBR's.
http://www.goingquiet.com/GunbrokerPhotos/ATF Markings.jpg
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65214
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your first link is dated 2006. People already referenced the Silencertalk link.
This is one of those things were it's a toss up. I myself have listened to both sides and believe the engraving is not needed, however, I will always engrave only because the way I see it, it's safer to have it than not to have it.
I don't think anyone will get in trouble either way. If anyone knows of anyone that got in trouble for not engraving a REGISTERED SBR, I would love to hear about it.
Well since you are so sure of that why even engrave yours?? Be the test case and let us know how it goes 
......
You see from the letters posted above that the ATF flip flops on their decisions. As you said in your post better to be safe than sorry.....
......You see from the letters posted above that the ATF flip flops on their decisions. As you said in your post better to be safe than sorry.....
When you engrave you are not putting a new serial number on the firearm (if a serial number already exists), you are engraving your info only (name, city, state)..... as you are the maker of the SBR.
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In the HKpro link you have a letter from the Chief of the NFA branch clearly stating that the engraving is needed. Not sure how much clearer it can get than that
Whether or not you will get caught or get in trouble if you do not have one on your firearm is a different story. There is definitely a chance you might, not a big chance but a chance nonetheless. I'd rather cover my butt and just get my stuff engraved
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In the HKpro link you have a letter from the Chief of the NFA branch clearly stating that the engraving is needed. Not sure how much clearer it can get than that
Whether or not you will get caught or get in trouble if you do not have one on your firearm is a different story. There is definitely a chance you might, not a big chance but a chance nonetheless. I'd rather cover my butt and just get my stuff engraved
Yep agree, better to have than not to have.
However, I still do NOT believe it is LEGALLY required. If you were to look at the Form-1, no where on the Form-1 does it state/show where the SBR is manufactured.
The Form1 only has a box for "original manufacturer, date and location". Therefore, all the info on the Form 1 is already engraved on the gun you are "manufacturing" and any other info you engrave on the gun, will not really match the Form-1. This is why I agree with those who say that "engraving is not needed".
However! Even if my claims were valid, it does not matter. It is what the ATF thinks that matters. ATF has been known to give conflicting answers, and they also have been known to reverse course on various issues.
All these ATF letters do not mean anything and I am not so sure that they will hold up in any courts. If the ATF flips without you knowing, it's no one's ass but yours. The latest letter I have seen is 2010, and in that letter it says engraving IS needed. So moving forward, I will say ENGRAVE! (as I have always done in the past).
Letter saying Engraving is NOT needed
Letter saying Engraving IS needed
Sure it will. You are engraving the makers info from section 3b on the form (name, city, state).
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They ask for original manufacturer since you are making a Title II firearm from a Title I firearm. They want to know what gun it was before you made it into the Title II weapon.
Like was said above, you engrave your name and location since you are now the maker of that Title II firearm.
Thinking about it another way, if you don't engrave an SBR you made, then someone would infer that the Original manufacturer created a Title II firearm from its factory and therefore you'd need a Form 4 to be in possession of that gun. At that point, your paperwork would not match what you possess.
Like was said above, you engrave your name and location since you are now the maker of that Title II firearm.
Thinking about it another way, if you don't engrave an SBR you made, then someone would infer that the Original manufacturer created a Title II firearm from its factory and therefore you'd need a Form 4 to be in possession of that gun. At that point, your paperwork would not match what you possess.
Cartmann you are the only logical person on this thread other than me, its like people are more inclined to try to prove the OP wrong than to take the knowledge as something learned. Hell i know someone who was caught with an illegal SBR and all the ATF did was confiscate the gun let the guy go and then gave the gun as a gift to the police department. They said it wasnt worth the time to prosecute him. Most of the people commenting believe everything they read or see on TV i guess. Or they know someone that knows someone that did something.
Can i see your form where you done this? Lemme guess you dont own any Title II weapons either so your an expert because you read something on the interwebz
Well since you are so sure of that why even engrave yours?? Be the test case and let us know how it goes
You see from the letters posted above that the ATF flip flops on their decisions. As you said in your post better to be safe than sorry.....
None of mine are engraved and all of mine are approved and i have 13 pending as of now so i would say the test confirms POSITIVE no engraving needed!!!
Bud I have owned silencers, sbr's and HK machine gun sears, always do my own paperwork.... I would like to think I know what Im talking about.......
Why dont you pull up a form 1 and see what that section is....
Anyways its your firearm. If you think the engraving is not needed the dont engrave it......
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This is straight from Spikes Tactical "Spikes said that none of the employees there engrave their SBR lowers and that "They should know since they work with the ATF on a daily basis"
I dont think anyone cares what the employees at ST are doing since they are not the ATF....
No no no all wrong your form 1 in box 3b would show you as the New manufacturer and box 4a shows the original manufacturer and the serial number in 4g that is all that is needed!!! Not a form 4 your form 1 shows that the original information on the lower has now been registered with the ATF as a SBR lower. Its that EASY. Im sure you dont even own any Title 2 weapons. Im trying to help you guys out not start a war about engraving and not engraving. Do what you want to but IT IS NOT REQUIRED. i dont care how many letters in the world get uploaded IT IS NOT REQUIRED.
I dont think anyone cares about what you think being you dont own any of the weapons we are all talking about or you would know this
Ok bud. Have fun in your thread. Thanks for sharing your expert knowledge on nfa items.......
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Yeah, you and I are the few logical people on gun forums. I find logic very lacking on gun forum. Trust me, I know logic, I have a degree in Electrical Engineering. I know logic! Most people can't do EE because they lack logic (or at the very least, do not have enough logic to do EE).
As for the Engraving, it is my personal belief (through much research and thought), that there is enough info on the Form-1 that engraving is not needed (keep in mind I have no agenda in this, I have always engraved, I think it's the safest way to go). I don't think no one will ever get in trouble for NOT engraving. The serial number of the gun, and the "original manufacturer" are on the gun, that there is enough proof.
The only time Engraving is really necessary is when you are making a SBR from scratch, or making a Silencer from scratch. In this case you would need clear markings (to include serial number, mnfr name, and place were it was mnfr)
As an engineer myself, I find electricals to be the dumbest fucks of all engineers. Its actually pretty sad.
If you can't read plain English, such as that contained in 26 USC 5842, 26 USC 5861, 26 USC 5871, 26 USC 5872 (a), along with 27 CFR 479.11 & .102, pay a lawyer to do it for you.
Yes, if you make a NFA firearm, you must mark it with the name of the making entity, and its city/state.
Y'all do what you want, but that above is as stone-cold a fact as there exists in the universe.
Yes, if you make a NFA firearm, you must mark it with the name of the making entity, and its city/state.
Y'all do what you want, but that above is as stone-cold a fact as there exists in the universe.
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If an Attorney says you need it but doesn't own any of the aforementioned weapons does their advice still not carry weight? How about an ATF agent then? Where's your logic now? Maybe they'll make your response a sticky note...
What purpose does this serve, other than a personal attack? It's pretty telling that EEs make more than mechanical, civil, or biomedical engineers, but a little less than chemical engineers. Both electrical and chemical pay among the top few bachelor's degrees one can earn. Estimates derived from GRE scores also suggest that the only engineering major having a slightly higher average IQ than electrical engineering is materials science/chemical engineering. The only non-engineering majors that are really competitive are physics, math, and economics.
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If you change it's status, you must mark it.
If you take parts from a manufacturer and perform work on those parts as a manufacturer, you should have an ffl and mark the parts that you performed work on unless a variance has been approved. Yes, this is illogical, but it's the way it is.
AllIdo doesn't seem to know what he is talking about. Just because he owns 3 gun stores doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about.
Heck, I myself have called the atf and gotten conflicting answers from the different NFA branch examiners, the field enforcement agent, the nfa branch supervisor, the field inspector and the legal staff at NFA branch.
The atf does not send someone to check your receiver that you described on your form 1 before they approve it. This is why allido has 14 form 1s approved or pending and the atf ain't checked to see if he engraved them one and all.
Yes, I own lots of title II weapons, check my YouTube channel. Yes, you must engrave if you submit a form 1.
What happens if you don't! Who knows. I doubt anyone from the ATF will be checking. Maybe it becomes an add on chage for something else. Maybe you piss one one at the range off who is in bed with an atf agent and thy hook you up. Because those wonderful letters actually nay apply to the person and firearm who requested the form and here you may have conflicting letters and the last one says engrave.
Y'all pays your money and makes your choices. I advise my clients to engrave. I don't want them to potentially spend $30k defending a federal felony charge that has mandatory incarceration under the sentencing guidelines. I don't know of anyone charged with failure to engrave off a form 1.
So, like I said, listen to allido is dance with my movie star buddies in my 3 gun stores and the OP or play it safe. Since safe only costs a few $$$, why not be safe?
Just to be clear
Form 4. No marking required
Form 1. Must mark with makers name, city and state
If you take parts from a manufacturer and perform work on those parts as a manufacturer, you should have an ffl and mark the parts that you performed work on unless a variance has been approved. Yes, this is illogical, but it's the way it is.
AllIdo doesn't seem to know what he is talking about. Just because he owns 3 gun stores doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about.
Heck, I myself have called the atf and gotten conflicting answers from the different NFA branch examiners, the field enforcement agent, the nfa branch supervisor, the field inspector and the legal staff at NFA branch.
The atf does not send someone to check your receiver that you described on your form 1 before they approve it. This is why allido has 14 form 1s approved or pending and the atf ain't checked to see if he engraved them one and all.
Yes, I own lots of title II weapons, check my YouTube channel. Yes, you must engrave if you submit a form 1.
What happens if you don't! Who knows. I doubt anyone from the ATF will be checking. Maybe it becomes an add on chage for something else. Maybe you piss one one at the range off who is in bed with an atf agent and thy hook you up. Because those wonderful letters actually nay apply to the person and firearm who requested the form and here you may have conflicting letters and the last one says engrave.
Y'all pays your money and makes your choices. I advise my clients to engrave. I don't want them to potentially spend $30k defending a federal felony charge that has mandatory incarceration under the sentencing guidelines. I don't know of anyone charged with failure to engrave off a form 1.
So, like I said, listen to allido is dance with my movie star buddies in my 3 gun stores and the OP or play it safe. Since safe only costs a few $$$, why not be safe?
Just to be clear
Form 4. No marking required
Form 1. Must mark with makers name, city and state
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If you want a real laugh, read the numerous letters from the atf responding to request regarding the parts necessary to bring a benelli M4/1014 into compliance with 922R.
no two last the same parts if I remember what I read avfewvfew years ago.
no two last the same parts if I remember what I read avfewvfew years ago.
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Lucky you are not my boss. Probably wold write me up for something.
You probably can't do EE either, Logic is very hard to acquire.
I really don't think anyone knows for sure hahahaha.
However, we have to do what is best to keep us out of trouble, and I have always said engraving is the safest way to go. Also the most recent letter I have seen from the ATF was dated 2010, and it says "Engraving is required". The latest letter I have seen where it says Engraving is NOT required was dated 2006. In ATF years, that's like 4 lifetimes ago, so I would not trust that letter at all.
FYI on Cartmann: Cartmann plays it overly safe. He is the guy who never rips that tag from the mattress. However, he also believes no one will ever go to jail if they do.
I'd rather not have Hello Kitty, Raider stickers, and bump fire stocks put on everything I own... lol
ATF opinion letters change often are are not legally binding. Federal firearm regulations change much less often and are the law. Play it safe and follow the law. An ATF letter won't get you out of handcuffs or pay your legal fees.
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