Suppressors SBR engraving

[biffj]

The idea that you don't need to mark a receiver you converted or registered as an SBR unless you are going to sell it is absolutely and catagorically incorrect. If you make or manufacture any NFA firearm you are required by the regs (previously posted here in the thread) to mark your firearm as noted in the regs. You don't have to engrave the receiver if you are using a previously manufactured title 1 firearm receiver. In that case is it already marked with a serial number by the original manufacturer. You must use that serial number on your form 1 when you file the form 1. As for the other info it can go on the frame, receiver or barrel as is also noted in the regs previously posted. You must have all the info required but also as noted in the regs it doesn't have to be on the receiver, only the serial number has to be on the receiver, the rest can be on the barrel, receiver or frame. What this means to you is that you can put the cal, model, makers name, city and state on the barrel the frame or the receiver. Most guys want to put all that info on the barrel so they don't screw up a receiver. This whole idiocy about not needing to put any of this on there unless you're selling comes from a misinterpreted reg concerning the manufacture of title 1 firearms. You can legally build any non NFA firearm with no markings, no serial number and no registration. If you sell this firearm (which is perfectly legal) ATF recommends you put the markings on it. This has nothing to do with NFA stuff however as the regulations clearly state that you must mark all NFA firearms in accordance with the regs. Title 1 requirements only apply to those of us who have a manufacturers license. Sorry for all the repetition but just trying to make it clear. If you make (regular joe-form 1) or manufacture (FFL manufacturer-form 2) any NFA firearm than you are required by the regs to mark it. If you are having it transferred to you and its already been made or manufactured by someone than you don't need to mark anything on the firearm.
I've been working with NFA stuff for about 30 years and had my manufacturers license (type 7 FFL-Class2 SOT) for 13 years. I deal with BATF and NFA branch all the time. Nothing they tell you on the phone is worth the time it took to listen to. A lot of what is written is good only for the person its written to so these letters that get posted are not a blanket permission slip or restriction for everyone, they are a specific answer to a specific question and only good for the one person who sent the question to Tech branch. Post the letter if you want but read the damn regs. They apply to everyone even those with letters to the contrary. So many contradicting letters are sent out that I wouldn't depend on one to cover my butt.....


Frank


Frank

 

[kRcu]

The Form 1 is a permission slip to MANUFACTURER a Title I gun in to a Title II firearm.

If you get the approved Form 1, the ATF has granted you MANUFACTURING rights for an SBR.

Assembly of the SBR upper with the approved lower = MANUFACTURED SBR. What is the proper name for the Form 1??

"Application to Make and Register a Firearm"

"The undersigned hereby makes application, as required by Sections 5821 and 5822 of the National Fireams Act, Title 26 U.S.C., Chapter 53, to make and register the firearm described below."

Instruction 1i. "Make. The term "make", and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm."

Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. Engraving is a minor pain in the ass, but I would rather have it done and not worry, rather than take pages of forum chatter to court to back up my reasons for misinterpretation.

 

[Charger442]

Oh man!! Y'all are in for it now!! OMG!!!!1!1!

Haven't you heard?!?!!

He has a letter!!

 

[kRcu]

allidoiswin...This is a letter that was posted on another forum.

Engraving is a must.

No sense arguing anymore.

 

[3DHUSKER]

allidoiswin...this is a letter that was posted on another forum.

Engraving is a must.

No sense arguing anymore.

lol ... but..... but....... all he does is win...... Lol

Like I said he is long gone... He knows he is wrong.

 

[df662]

LOL He has another thread going in the S/A section....


http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...e-make-sticky-so-all-people-can-informed.html

 

[3DHUSKER]

Wow.... a stupid is a stupid does is all i am going to say. I hope Frank purges him soon.

 

[msrtex]

Government employees and officers who deal with NFA have been some of the most responsive and helpful government officials I have ever dealt with. That being said, the laws are so convoluted today even they have difficulty following what is correct and what is not. Never take one opinion on what is correct.

 

[Slick66]

You're reading the wrong section of the CFR. 27 CFR 478 only deals with regulations applicable to licensees.

Regulations applicable to non-licensees are in 27 CFR 479.

A non-licensee who produces a NFA firearm is the "maker" of that firearm, with "make" being defined in 27 CFR 479.11, "Meaning of terms."

Also note the definition of "firearm" in that same section.

The Form 1 is titled "Application to Make and Register a Firearm.

I guess in lawyers terms, a Form 1 "Application to Make and Register a Firearm" would imply that you are a manufacturer (would need clarification on the term "licensed" below however). The following was taken from this, http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/5300-4.pdf;

§ 478.92 How must licensed manufacturers
and licensed importers identify
firearms, armor piercing ammunition,
and large capacity ammunition feeding
devices?
(a) (1) Firearms. You, as a licensed
manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms,
must legibly identify each firearm
manufactured or imported as follows:
(i) By engraving, casting, stamping
(impressing), or otherwise conspicuously
placing or causing to be engraved,
cast, stamped (impressed) or
placed on the frame or receiver
thereof an individual serial number.
The serial number must be placed in
a manner not susceptible of being
readily obliterated, altered, or removed,
and must not duplicate any
serial number placed by you on any
other firearm. For firearms manufactured
or imported on and after January
30, 2002, the engraving, casting,
or stamping (impressing) of the serial
number must be to a minimum depth
of .003 inch and in a print size no
smaller than 1/16 inch;

 

[Krej]

First off, I am no expert, but I have spent the last 8 years of my life working for the Federal Gov sifting through more documentation than one human should ever have too, and here is what I have read/ concluded.

Second, my research has placed me on what seems to be the less popular side of this argument, but please do not assume that I am condoning the language/ attitude of others that might happen to agree with me on this particular topic.

After scrubbing through lots of forums, copies of letters from random ATF "chiefs", and NFA documentation, I question and disagree with the need to engrave an AR15 that has been previously purchased as a non-NFA firearm and has legacy manufacturing information already engraved. Here is my reasoning:

1. On the NFA Form 1, both block 4a and G refer the applicant to instruction 2i which states
"Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number . If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g."

This distinguishes the concept of making a firearm from parts (i.e. an AK receiver blank) from modifying an existing firearm into a NFA item. Therefore we could conclude that you are not making a new firearm just modifying an existing firearm and so only the original manufactures information an serial number are need to be used.

2. On this notion that you are indeed "making" a new firearm and therefore are subject to section 7.4 why then are you exempt from the remaining information required by manufactures like model and caliber? The Form one would only exempt you from needing a new serial number it does not mention the rest of the information as being exempt or grandfathered from the legacy manufacturer.

3. The intent of all of this is to simply identify each firearm as unique and doesn't the legacy manufacturers markings satisfy this need? Why the the need for requiring half of the required information of a new "maker". Each item is the registered by either a Form 1 or Form 4 to an individual or trust. Is the item any less identifiable if has been transferred on a Form 4 directly from the manufacturer as a NFA item?

4. As to the letters from the ATF or talking to so and so there who said this that or the other thing, none of that matters, and here is why. It is not the job of the ATF to interpret what the law says, that is the job of the judicial branch of the government. Don't believe me, ask a LEO about the law. There are a select few who know much at all (not trying to knock all of the LEOs in the crowd, just being honest). Would you want a police officer defending you in court instead of a lawyer? It is my guess that all of this need to engrave BS is a result of one of the worst the unwritten policies of the federal government: if you don't have a f-ing clue, error on the side of caution. In other words, it is easier for them to tell you to get your firearm engraved than it is for them to do the research, or make a phone call to someone in the judicial branch and get a good interpretation of the intent of the law. I have seen it time and time again, people making miles of red tape just because they don't want their names on something that might end up being the wrong answer.

That is all that I have, you are welcome to flame away, but I am not a rookie at deciphering gov regulations and laws, so if you have anything concrete (not a letter from some idiot from 5 years ago) but actual case law or documentation where someone was even charge for not having duplicate engravings let me know and we can discuss.

 

[3DHUSKER]

The LAW is Plenty CLEAR when you read the correct law... You need to engrave (Name, City, State) on a SBR you are making from a title I firearm. There is nothing to discuss.

 

[Krej]

Not exactly concrete. The only thing CLEAR is the distinction in 2i on the Form 1 between "modifying an existing firearm" and "making a firearm from parts". The existence of a legacy serial number clearly makes it a "modification".

Read all of the laws I could find, any reference suggestions, or are you just going off of internet hearsay?

 

[kRcu]

Not exactly concrete. The only thing CLEAR is the distinction in 2i on the Form 1 between "modifying an existing firearm" and "making a firearm from parts". The existence of a legacy serial number clearly makes it a "modification".

Read all of the laws I could find, any reference suggestions, or are you just going off of internet hearsay?

The Form 1 is a permission slip to MANUFACTURER a Title I gun in to a Title II firearm.

"Application to Make and Register a Firearm"

"The undersigned hereby makes application, as required by Sections 5821 and 5822 of the National Fireams Act, Title 26 U.S.C., Chapter 53, to make and register the firearm described below."

Instruction 1i. "Make. The term "make", and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm."

Is it seriously that hard to misinterpret the instructions directly before your 2i interpretation?

On my Form 1, box 4a says to put name and location of the original manufacturer of the firearm. I did not manufacture the lower, LMT did, so their info shall remain on the currently registered lower, with the original registered serial number. The info which was first registered as a "rifle". I am now applying to MAKE or Manufacture the rifle (title 1) into an SBR (title 2).

Form 4 SBR's are already registered as an SBR, therefore require no additional markings. I had to engrave my lower when I got the manufacturing permission (form 1) to make my currently registered rifle into a self-registered SBR.

Not sure what is so hard to understand. To each their own. I don't ever have to catch shit for it from anyone if the situation were to come up, since I did what the rules say to do.

 

[3DHUSKER]

Not exactly concrete. The only thing CLEAR is the distinction in 2i on the Form 1 between "modifying an existing firearm" and "making a firearm from parts". The existence of a legacy serial number clearly makes it a "modification".

Read all of the laws I could find, any reference suggestions, or are you just going off of internet hearsay?

Clearly states in (title 27 cfr 479.102) read it all and pay close attention to when they say MAKER. Read it all.... It tells you CLEARLY you have to engrave your firearm as a MAKER. Name, city and state. Then look at your form 1 application. You use current info on the firearm along with your information engraved to fill out the form.

 

[Krej]

I understand the requirements of identifying a firearm you have "made". I simply do not agree that installing a shorter barrel means that you are "making" a new firearm. If that is the case, then what changes would fall under the "modification"? If any change to a firearm that turns it into a NFA item is considered "making" a new firearm, then why include the stanza describing "modification"? And again, no one has addressed why only half of the required information is needed. If you were truely "making" a new firearm, the leaving off the caliber and model would still leave you in violation of the law.

 

[kRcu]

I understand the requirements of identifying a firearm you have "made". I simply do not agree that installing a shorter barrel means that you are "making" a new firearm. If that is the case, then what changes would fall under the "modification"? If any change to a firearm that turns it into a NFA item is considered "making" a new firearm, then why include the stanza describing "modification"? And again, no one has addressed why only half of the required information is needed. If you were truely "making" a new firearm, the leaving off the caliber and model would still leave you in violation of the law.

You are though. You are making a title 1 firearm into a title 2 firearm. The caliber is already stamped on the receiver, so no need to add it again elsewhere. Especially since several lowers are marked "multi cal".

The form 1 is to manufacture an existing weapon and "make" (all defined meanings of the word) it into an NFA weapon.

Per the instructions, MAKE = modify = manufacture = put together = alter; or any combo of the listed words.

 

[3DHUSKER]

I understand the requirements of identifying a firearm you have "made". I simply do not agree that installing a shorter barrel means that you are "making" a new firearm.

You dont have to agree with it but you do have to comply if your want to be legal. If you can't understand that then Title II weapons are not for you.

 

[3DHUSKER]

no one has addressed why only half of the required information is needed. If you were truely "making" a new firearm, the leaving off the caliber and model would still leave you in violation of the law.

Clearly states in (title 27 cfr 479.102) read it all. You obviously did not.

 

[Ring]

You have to adhere to ATFs depth and height requirements for engraving. They have specific requirements

does it have to be english?.. or a QR code?

 

[3DHUSKER]

Seriously?

 

[Renegade]

The form 1 is to manufacture an existing weapon and "make"....

You have posted this several times and it is not true. Their is no requirement to start with an existing weapon. You can start with a block of steel.

 

[kRcu]

You have posted this several times and it is not true. Their is no requirement to start with an existing weapon. You can start with a block of steel.

Yes. That is true, sorry. My bad for stating that improperly.





Still have to engrave existing, that is being made into a form 1 weapon...

 

[SnkBit]

Hilarious another person who doesnt know you DO NOT have to engrave your lower unless you plan on selling it or cut the lower yourself out of a blank. And 15years in jail lmao i know someone who got caught with a illegal sbs and all they did was confiscate it and then told the police department to keep it as a gift. Thats ALL!!! They said they didnt have the time to persue a case to imprison the law breaker. Unless your a gunrunner or something but the average joe. SLAP ON THE HAND

Hilarious, I have an employee who spent 10 years of his life in federal prison for a SBS. Ask him about it some time, he's real fond of the story.

 

[mike in pa]

Hilarious, I have an employee who spent 10 years of his life in federal prison for a SBS. Ask him about it some time, he's real fond of the story.

Wow, he actually received the magical "10 years in a Federal Prison" for an illegal SBS.

In my area not that long ago, a guy murdered his business partner with an illegal SBS and received absolutely no time from the ATF, the guy got like three to five and I think that he is already out.

 

[tap.rack.bang]

I would go ahead and engrave something that is a NFA item (unless it's already registered by it's original manufacturer like a suppressor or SBR lower) so it's obvious that you followed all the proper procedures according to ATF instructions. They instruct you to engrave the firearm if you manufactured it. Which you did by filing a FORM 1.

After all they can twist whatever rule/law how they see fit pretty much. You wouldn't want to pay a criminal lawyer $25,000 to fight a case against the ATF would you?

 

[JByrd]

100 experts, 100 different answers.

 

[mallrat]

100 experts, 100 different answers.

Only 100 different answers?

Btw, I vote for engraving. The random cop that thinks it's required might be wrong, but he can still cause you a lot of trouble. I prefer to avoid trouble.

 

[mike in pa]

The random cop that thinks it's required might be wrong, but he can still cause you a lot of trouble.

Give me a break. All the guys that I know that had their Form 1 or 4 checked, almost all of the LEOs had absolutely no idea of what they were looking at and you think that they are going to be looking for NFA engraving?

You guys need to move on.

 

[mallrat]

Meh. I'm not worried about the Leo with no idea what he's looking at, it's the one with a couple wrong ideas that scares me. The engraving makes it look official, they're less likely to push the issue. JMO. Do as you see fit.

 

[Ring]

since S&W puts the SN# under the grips, could you not do the same on a AR?.. pull off the grip, engrave all the crap there?..

 

[mallrat]

I think somebody already nixed that...might reread the thread.

Or write the ATF to be somewhat sure. Just be sure to keep a copy of their reply in case you deal with a different employee when some LEO questions it.