SBR large game hunting

[davidwillis]

So I am looking to buy/build a light, short barrel rifle (around 10-12 inches), but I want it to be able to take down anything in north america. I would like to suppress it, and run subsonic as well as supersonic, without too much recoil or sound. I am looking at something like the christensen arms mpp, but they only come in 6.5 creedmoor (may work?), 308 (probably too loud and too much recoil), and 300 black out (not enough power?)

Looking at the 8.6 blackout sounds great (they are taking down cape buffalo in with a 10" barrel), you can shoot subsonic, has low recoil, and is quit with a supressor. Basically everything sounds good. However I am not sure I buy all the hype, the ammo is expensive, and from what I understand it can fall apart due to the 1:3 twist rate with hypersonic rounds. Also I am not sure if this round will even last.

Other things I have looked at is 450 bushmaster (recoil may be high in a light short barrel, and sound may also be high?), 6.5 grendel (not sure if it is powerful enough?), 375 raptor, 300 black out (not powerful enough?)

Any ideas or suggestions?

 

[TheBigCountry]

You may want to rethink this….

Traveling across state lines you need to get approval from the ATF with an SBR, which could be a predicament going hunting outside your home state.


If you want a do-all rifle for NA, and your talking hunting, you would be better off with a normal rifle in something like a 308/30-06 but you also mention not to much recoil? 6.5 Creed in an 18-20” barrel could work with a can.

In grizzly country? I’d be stepping up to something with more ass behind it like a 338 or 375 H&H.

 

[dk17hmr]

338 federal is a pretty nice round also. If you reload 308 brass to 338f is one pass in a full length sizer and does decent in shorter barrels. I have a 16" that does 2450fps with a 200gr.

Check out some of the specialty bolt pistol builds out there for some more ideas.

If your going to shoot animals with subs I'd suggest the biggest diameter you can. I had a 16" 458 socom bolt action at one time that suppressed nicely.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

A suppressed subsonic bolt gun is fun to shoot at the range and giggle about how quiet it is, but when it comes to terminal performance on game they suck in comparison to bullets hitting with higher velocity, not to mention more reliable expansion.

8.6BLK would be a good round you could go hunt with to moderate ranges and go have quiet fun. 300BLK is alright too and a lot more common but after shooting several deer with them with supers and subs IMO its a 200 yard MAX range medium game round with Barnes supers and I’d never shoot subs at an animal again after shooting them with both the hornady and Lehigh subsonics. 9mm with HST’s are more effective.

 

[hafejd30]

I tried playing in this game for a bit. I found either I gave up to much terminal performance to get short and quiet or just ended up with a compact loud gun that lacked velocity and didn’t suppress well anyways

Results may very but for myself the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze

 

[noremorse92]

What will the majority of its actual use be? At what range? Budget? Do you reload? I think you'd compromise too much velocity with that short a barrel in a 'regular' cartridge. Maybe meet some of your compactness needs with a folder?

Lot of guys in the shorty rifle thread doing well with a 16 inch 6.5cm. With a folding chassis or compact stock like the manners cs you can Gain the majority of the compactness you want I think, and not compromise too much in performance. Something like a 3b contour for the barrel.
Can always cut it shorter if it's too long.

 

[hlee]

Velocity X bullet mass. That is momentum. Add in mass / (pi X (caliber/2)^2). That is sectional density. All else being equal, a bullet with more momentum will drive further into a target. And, all else being equal, a bullet with higher sectional density will drive further into a target. When considering subsonic rounds and “all NA game,” the question of having enough ass to get to the vitals becomes important.

And whether it comes from a 30-06, a 308 win, or a 300 BO, a subsonic bullet is a subsonic bullet.

Personally, I keep my hunting with subs to ranges I am comfortable with shooting pistol cartridges, or a bow.

 

[Tyler Kemp]

16" integral will forego the SBR travel BS.

I've lusted over a 458 Socom Integral but haven't seen one.

 

[Kadams1563]

13.7 with pin and weld brake.

I want to see some one do this with a bolt gun.

I wanted to do it with my .223 AI build but got scared.

I bet a .308 would work

 

[davidwillis]

Thanks for the comments so far, There is some great information. Maybe to clarify. I don't plan on hunting with subsonic rounds, unless it is small game at close range. My main purpose is to have a light compact gun with a suppressor (so I can shoot without ear protection). Watching videos on the 8.6 blackout sounds exactly what I want. But I just don't think it will work with supersonics. Having the option of subsonic would just be an added benefit to go shoot at the range or what not.

Also I don't reload, so I would have to buy factory ammo, and am limited to what is made.

I already have a 6.5 creedmoor and a 7prc, so I have the rifles for hunting, but it would be amazing if I could get something I could hunt with in a size like the mpp. It would be so easy to carry.

I had not thought about the integral barrel. That may be a great option, other than the wait time to get it because it has a supressor built in. I am not sure the wait on an SBR, but I already have suppressors (which took what seemed like forever to get).

 

[zeroz]

As mentioned, the 13.7-14.5 with a pin and weld brake/supressor host to 16" would avoid the SBR issues not limited to but including, ATF paperwork, state line crossing complications and hunting laws (depending on the state). If you really want to go shorter you could integrally suppress or pin and weld a suppressor. Im looking at pin and welding one and am trying to wade through the barrel cleaning issues involved.
.338 fed, 308 win,.260 rem and I GUESS 6.5 CM would all fit the bill. If I had to buy factory ammo I'd likely go .308 win.

 

[davidwillis]

Thanks.... I have been searching more on integal barrels, and found this video. These look very nice:

I think 308 would be the best, since it so available, and cheap.

 

[Crews]

I had not thought about the integral barrel. That may be a great option, other than the wait time to get it because it has a supressor built in. I am not sure the wait on an SBR, but I already have suppressors (which took what seemed like forever to get).

Form 1 to create an SBR should be infinitely shorter, I haven’t done one in a couple years but my last one on eFile only took 30 days.

When I went down this same road, I ended up with a pinned 14.5” 308 in a chassis with a collapsible stock (JTAC Industries.) It was small enough to scratch the tiny rifle itch for me, and 308 in that barrel length is nothing an animal would laugh at. Here it is, with thermal.

 

[davidwillis]

That is really nice. How are you able to put a suppressor on a pinned barrel? Do you like shooting it? is it loud?

 

[hlee]

That is really nice. How are you able to put a suppressor on a pinned barrel? Do you like shooting it? is it loud?

Pin your supressor mount…

 

[C130]

Thanks for the comments so far, There is some great information. Maybe to clarify. I don't plan on hunting with subsonic rounds, unless it is small game at close range. My main purpose is to have a light compact gun with a suppressor (so I can shoot without ear protection). Watching videos on the 8.6 blackout sounds exactly what I want. But I just don't think it will work with supersonics. Having the option of subsonic would just be an added benefit to go shoot at the range or what not.

Also I don't reload, so I would have to buy factory ammo, and am limited to what is made.

I already have a 6.5 creedmoor and a 7prc, so I have the rifles for hunting, but it would be amazing if I could get something I could hunt with in a size like the mpp. It would be so easy to carry.

I had not thought about the integral barrel. That may be a great option, other than the wait time to get it because it has a supressor built in. I am not sure the wait on an SBR, but I already have suppressors (which took what seemed like forever to get).

Wait times on an SBR‘s aren’t bad, at least mine have been pretty quick. One was 11 days and the latest was 20 something, that was about three months ago. That is with me filing the Form 1 and adding a stock, not buying it as a SBR which I think is much longer.

I have a Noveske SBR in 300BLK, just under an 8” barrel. One of my favorite guns but I haven’t been hunting with it. Taking it across state lines isn’t a big deal but it took about 3 or 4 weeks to get the approval which was a little longer than I thought it would take. I go back and forth from Texas to Tennessee and I’m just filing it for a year next time, that’s what seems to be the recommendation.

 

[Crews]

That is really nice. How are you able to put a suppressor on a pinned barrel? Do you like shooting it? is it loud?

Pin the suppressor mount to attain 16” OAL for barrel. In this case, TBAC Ultra 5. It was great to shoot, and I killed a lot of hogs with it. Really fast 110’s were murderous. The suppressor was just enough to make it not uncomfortable without hearing protection.

 

[BCP]

There's been a bunch of threads on here with pinned 16" bolt guns for target shooting, hunting etc. With the right bullet I don't see why it wouldn't work on deer or elk. Some of these people are getting 2700-2800+ with a 130gr TTSX which is almost as fast as a 130gr factory out of my 270.

 

[Eo12]

308, 375raptor, or 8.6blk in a 14.5-16” barrel would all be lethal to animals. 8.6 running 185cx bullets have no problems in supers.

 

[brianf]

I’m not a big fan of them but get a DTA.

You won’t get much shorter and it still has barrel length

 

[jbuck88]

Pistol bullets are generally designed to expand at lower velocities then rifle bullets. A integral 77/44 is the quietest rifles I've heard besides the 22lr. The 44caliber 300gr XTP is designed to expand down to 850fps.

So might be worth looking at.

 

[DJL2]

This strikes me as half baked… forgive me for generalizing and possibly lumping you in where you don’t belong. Every time I see some dude that has to have a SBR or a 6 lb gun or whatever to go hunting I just roll my eyes… like a whole class of people that need hunting to be easier as their main concern without regard for the actual business of shooting the damn thing.

That being said, you want either a Freedom Arms or a Ruger Super Blackhawk (depending on budget) modified to either .475 Linebaugh or .500 Linebaugh. Both have been used to take dangerous African game and will serve for anything on the American continent while being very compact, light, and easy to carry. If you’re a DA sort of guy, run a Redhawk in .44 Rem Mag and find some Garrett Hammerheads - get the 300s and load stoutly.

 

[davidwillis]

I think I may have found exactly what I am looking for. A sig cross 277 FURY. It will shoot a 150 grain bullet at over 2800 ft/s in a 16" barrel (a little longer than I wanted). It has a folding stock, so it will is small and light. I could also get it in the 308, which should do very well, just with a little more recoil, and slower.

 

[hlee]

I think I may have found exactly what I am looking for. A sig cross 277 FURY. It will shoot a 150 grain bullet at over 2800 ft/s in a 16" barrel (a little longer than I wanted). It has a folding stock, so it will is small and light. I could also get it in the 308, which should do very well, just with a little more recoil, and slower.

You’re not going to get those speeds without the hybrid case ammunition. The conventional cased ammo is more like a 135 gr at 2750 fps. Basically a 6.8 Creedmoor with a lower BC.

The hybrid case ammo is running $70 to $100+ per 20?

 

[BamaSE]

The Sig Cross will probably serve you well, but based on your original post, I recommend one in .308….in order to shoot subs or supers.
Or you can go out with the Cross’s hotter and older sister aka the Q Fix if you have more $$$ to spend.

But as others have pointed out, shooting subs on big game can be done….but only should be done with certain ammo, on certain game, and under certain conditions. My experiences with .300 BO and Lehigh’s or Gorilla’s on pigs has been ok…..that ammo on the first one is pretty gnarly, but the others still run after the initial shot suppressed and it is a truly helpless feeling with follow up shots not knowing how the heck to lead them for speed or range.

SBR inhibitions against crossing state lines aside….I have a POF Revolution 12.5” SBR in .308 that makes a great truck/buggy gun. But it is a fire breather and ear drum popper with supers unless suppressed. However, it meets your criteria and will run both supers and subs and has an AGB to trim the gas for whatever you are firing. Downside is it is a 2 stamp gun so figure in the current Form 1 wait time of 60 days (???) plus suppressor of 8 months….unless you already have one. The Dead Air Nomad pairs up nicely.

 

[Kadams1563]

Dude. 13.7”-13.9” .308 with a pin and weld brake of your choice for your suppressor.

For me it would be a SOLGW NOX for my suppressor and that will get you a small as heck package and still be a rifle so no jumping through hoops.

 

[davidwillis]

You’re not going to get those speeds without the hybrid case ammunition. The conventional cased ammo is more like a 135 gr at 2750 fps. Basically a 6.8 Creedmoor with a lower BC.

The hybrid case ammo is running $70 to $100+ per 20?

View attachment 8221050

From my searching, a 135 gr creedmoor from a 16" barrel is more like 2550 fps (about 200 ft/s less than conventional 227) . Now if you bump it up to an 18" barrel then you are probably close. But the hybrid case blows the creedmoor away, it even beats the 308 with a full length barrel (227 in a 16").

The drawback is the cost of the hybrid rounds, but it is not like you will use a lot of rounds hunting, and you could still use it to shoot they conventional ammo (but still more expensive than non hunting creedmoor or 308).

I wonder if the cost will come down after other manufacturers start making ammo for it?

 

[hlee]

From my searching, a 135 gr creedmoor from a 16" barrel is more like 2550 fps (about 200 ft/s less than conventional 227) . Now if you bump it up to an 18" barrel then you are probably close. But the hybrid case blows the creedmoor away, it even beats the 308 with a full length barrel (227 in a 16").

The drawback is the cost of the hybrid rounds, but it is not like you will use a lot of rounds hunting, and you could still use it to shoot they conventional ammo (but still more expensive than non hunting creedmoor or 308).

I wonder if the cost will come down after other manufacturers start making ammo for it?

Truly apples to apples, comparing 6.5 CM to conventional 277 fury is about the same comparison as 6.5 Grendel v 6.8 SPC. Slightly more MV for the 6.8, but lower BC allowing the 6.5 to catch up and overtake at distance.

 

[AMG04]

I'm running a 16" 300 SAUM and getting 3100 fps from the 130 TTSX for hogs, then 2750 with 190 SMKs over RE26.

Unfortunately, factory ammo and even brass is about extinct...

 

[davidwillis]

Looking at 4 cartridges from a 16" barrel, and just the energy (yes there is more than just the energy, but that will give us a good idea), and this is just estimated from what I have read on velocities, and bc. They are not the same grain, but what I thought was the best for a 16" barrel.

at 100 yards
creedmoor: 1635
277 hybrid: 2334
277 conv.: 1969
308: 1808

at 200 yards
creedmoor: 1455
277 hybrid 2035
277 conv: 1703
308: 1563

at 300 yards
creedmoor: 1290
277 hybrid 1766
277 conv: 1466
308: 1345

at 400 yards
creedmoor: 1141
277 hybrid 1526
277 conv: 1255
308: 1152

That is probably the limited range, but just for fun

at 600 yards
creedmoor 886
277 hybrid. 1123
277 conv: 907
308: 837

at 800 yards
creedmoor 685
277 hybrid. 815
277 conv: 648
308: 606

 

[davidwillis]

I'm running a 16" 300 SAUM and getting 3100 fps from the 130 TTSX for hogs, then 2750 with 190 SMKs over RE26.

Unfortunately, factory ammo and even brass is about extinct...

That sounds great, other than you can't get factory ammo.... How loud is it? Do you run a suppressor on it?

 

[AMG04]

I've only shot it suppressed.

 

[davidwillis]

Thanks for all the input. I have decided to go with a 16" 308 (christensen arms modern precision rifle). It should have enough power to take down just about anything out to 200 yards, and deer out to 400. And ammo is very abundant in 308.

 

[carbonbased]

(christensen arms modern precision rifle)

Uh oh. The rep on Christenson isn’t the best. Do a site search.

Also, with supersonic ammo, without ear pro you are still going to be losing hearing from the supersonic crack each time you shoot.


The guy’s analogy with UV exposure isn’t the best, as your skin does repair itself (but yeah, you can get cancer over a lifetime). Whereas if you injure your hearing, your ear does NOT repair itself.

Heck, with a semi-auto, even shooting subsonics might expose an unprotected ear to damaging sound due to ignition sound coming out of the ejection port. I’m not sure, but with ARs lots of sound escapes from that port.

In my case, I’m specifically thinking about a suppressed 10/22.

 

[davidwillis]

I have seen both good and bad reviews. But the other one I was considering is the cross, which also has both good and bad reviews. The Christenson arms looks like it is better quality.

I will use ear protection even with a suppressor when shooting supersonic rounds. It will just be much safer.