I guess we talked about CE enough they found us hahaha! For real though great product. I haven't even setup my auto thrower yet but it on the to do list lol.
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Scales scales scales... tell me about your scale!
- Thread starter DeauxJoe
- Start date
I received my combo yesterday and going to set it up today. Should the balance be left on all the time or does it need to be "warmed" up like the charge master?
- Sep 1, 2017
- 26
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Greta review from Joe Ambartsumyan about the Autothrower Combo vs The Chargemaster Thank you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7ryIfBssu8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7ryIfBssu8
Let me guess, the $500 digital scale with $400 worth of accessories beats the $200 scale?
Am I right?
Am I right?
Haha. That made me laugh
seriously though, I was annoyed with kernels jumping out of the cup and pill bottle I tried. Bought 3oz Dixie cups and cut them down. Work way better.
fastest way for load development
seriously though, I was annoyed with kernels jumping out of the cup and pill bottle I tried. Bought 3oz Dixie cups and cut them down. Work way better.
fastest way for load development
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Looks like you cut off the bend in the straw like the instructions say to have, thats probably why you are having kernals hop out. They are shooting out too fast.
I have had one or two bounce out but nothing that has caused me to need to cut off a dixie or pill bottle.
I have had one or two bounce out but nothing that has caused me to need to cut off a dixie or pill bottle.
Other nice thing for me is non plastic. No static, the main reason I wanted the Dixie cup. I had the bend, a few still bounced out here and there. No need for the bent straw now.
- Sep 1, 2017
- 26
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***BLACK FRIDAY/CYBER MONDAY***
Starts Friday Nov 24th 12:30am- Ends Monday Nov 27 11:59pm
https://ce-products.myshopify.com/…/fx-120i-reloading-scale…
USE CODE: BFCM17
$10.00 off scale,
Free 100 Gram Calibration Weight
Free Programming,
$45.00 in savings
Applies to FX-120i,HR-100A, Autotrickler package and FX-120i Combo Package
Please Share! Stocked and ready to ship out
Questions please call 1-800-535-3751
Starts Friday Nov 24th 12:30am- Ends Monday Nov 27 11:59pm
https://ce-products.myshopify.com/…/fx-120i-reloading-scale…
USE CODE: BFCM17
$10.00 off scale,
Free 100 Gram Calibration Weight
Free Programming,
$45.00 in savings
Applies to FX-120i,HR-100A, Autotrickler package and FX-120i Combo Package
Please Share! Stocked and ready to ship out
Questions please call 1-800-535-3751
- Sep 1, 2017
- 26
- 26
- Sep 1, 2017
- 26
- 26
WE JUST GOT THE WORD TODAY
PLEASE SHARE with your Friends, This offer is real and for EXTREMELY LIMITED TIME
https://ce-products.myshopify.com/…/fx-120i-reloading-scale…
Thinking about an FX-120I? For a limited time only, bring home an FX-120I for 30% off the purchase price with a new manufacturer’s rebate from A&D Weighing. How does it work? Order an FX-120I, fill out the included rebate form with a copy of your invoice and remit to A&D using the instructions on the rebate form. Please allow 6-8 weeks for check to arrive, US residents only. Rebate applies only to FX-120I, not applicable on accessories or the AutoTrickler or Autothrower components
https://weighing.andonline.com/…/docum…/Rebate%20form_V2.pdf
Order online
Or by Phone
Mon- Fri 830-430pm EST
1-800-535-3751
PLEASE SHARE with your Friends, This offer is real and for EXTREMELY LIMITED TIME
https://ce-products.myshopify.com/…/fx-120i-reloading-scale…
Thinking about an FX-120I? For a limited time only, bring home an FX-120I for 30% off the purchase price with a new manufacturer’s rebate from A&D Weighing. How does it work? Order an FX-120I, fill out the included rebate form with a copy of your invoice and remit to A&D using the instructions on the rebate form. Please allow 6-8 weeks for check to arrive, US residents only. Rebate applies only to FX-120I, not applicable on accessories or the AutoTrickler or Autothrower components
https://weighing.andonline.com/…/docum…/Rebate%20form_V2.pdf
Order online
Or by Phone
Mon- Fri 830-430pm EST
1-800-535-3751
I put a dogleg bend end at the end of the straw. It decerates the kernels before they dump into the plastic cup provided with the thrower, zero bounces. Haven't used it much; assembled an OCW with 115 DTACs (33 rounds) for my new 6x47 Lapua and 50 rounds of 6.5 CM. It works very well IMHO. Much faster than I can do it manually with -0/+1 milligram repeatability.
I just happened to be looking at the setup and saw the 30% off. Ordered mine a few days ago and everything should be here next week.
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No the rebate is on the scale only. Comes out to about $150 back which is a great deal.
The rebate is from the manufacturer of the balance (AnD) and has nothing to do with the auto-addons.
I think it’ll be the week after next that they start shipping the units out. I emailed Adam and he said that CE probably wouldn’t have the backordered items from him until the end of next week.
I ordered the scales separate and the auto trickler combo direct from Adam. Scales shipped yesterday and Adam said the combo will ship Monday.
Good deal! Sounds like a win. Probably should’ve done that myself. I have a match in a couple weeks and was hoping to use it to load.
Hmm, but the problem is best is a realitive term many times and not a definitive one like you are making it out to be. I’ll use part of your own example, you say the Ferrari is the best car, well it isn’t the “best” if I need to haul a cord of firewood. Also if I say what is the best sports car you will get thousands of different answers because people have their own prerogatives. So like I say best is a realitive term.
So if someone asked me what the best powder dispenser is I would say in my opinion if you have 1000 to spend get the autotrickler with all the area 419 stuff trickler base and the powder cup. If you don’t have 1000 then get the chargemaster. Then I would add the caveat if you have unlimited funds and don’t care about money get a Prometheus.
The reason I say the auto trickler is the best is because for 98-99% it is the best. Using the car analogy again, if someone ask me hey I’m looking to buy a sports car what’s the best I would probably consider the corvette at the top of that list because the Ferrari is so far out of most people league that it dosen’t make the list.
Also, the other issue is when you go from a good manual balance beam to the chargemaster for my use I would say you get a 50% increase in benefits for a hundred or two hundred more dollars. When you go from the cm to autotrickler you get a 25% increase in benefits over the cm for 500 more dollars and with the Prometheus you get a 10% increase in benefits over the autotrickler for 4,100 more dollars.
Now you can say all this bull about not handling and spilling the powder but the last time I looked at a Prometheus it didn’t fill it self, seat bullets or handle all your cases but maybe you got a gen 3 Prometheus we don’t know about. Those complaining about spilling powder with the auto trickler, your using it wrong, not had a single issue with this. The only reason that I typically spill powder the Prometheus won’t help with because it typically happens moving the case with the powder in it, from reloading block to the press.
Is the Prometheus awesome and the best where money is not a concern, yes of course it is but the problem is for most people money is a concern. Even if money is not a concern the cost benefit of the Prometheus is not there, you can show me no hard facts that show any improvements in the Prometheus over the autotrickler and probably not even the CM. This is the reason I almost could not justify buying the autotrickler because I really doubt there is much cost benifit between the two. With each step up in price you get improvements in speed, convenience and accuracy but the gaps in improvements grow smaller and the price grows exponentially larger.
With enough money someone could make something better than the Prometheus but like I said in the beginning the best is realitive and if something is unattainable or irrational for someone to buy it is not the best and for 99% the Prometheus is an irrational or unattainable purchase so when talking to the average shooter, which the majority on this site are, the Prometheus is not the best when talking about purchasing a powder dispenser.
Orkan's statement that the Prometheus is the best is firmly rooted in the (incorrect) belief that no advances have been made since the Prometheus was designed.
I will pit my $600 AnD FX300 lab balance against the mechanical scale in the Prometheus any day and the AnD will best it in every measure (no pun intended). I am 100% sure that my FX300 has superior resolution, accuracy, repeatability, and update time to whatever mechanical balance is built into the Prometheus.
How can I make that claim when I have no experience with the Prometheus?
Being as Orkan has zero experience with the AnD FX balances, I'm just as likely to be right as he is.
I will pit my $600 AnD FX300 lab balance against the mechanical scale in the Prometheus any day and the AnD will best it in every measure (no pun intended). I am 100% sure that my FX300 has superior resolution, accuracy, repeatability, and update time to whatever mechanical balance is built into the Prometheus.
How can I make that claim when I have no experience with the Prometheus?
Being as Orkan has zero experience with the AnD FX balances, I'm just as likely to be right as he is.
I also have to question if measuring to the kernel is absolutely necessary. Are we guaranteed that every kernel is exactly the same consistency/composition. I know that many BR shooters chose volume over weight. Weight was just a starting point. Just curious if real world results show that exact powder weights equal more exact accuracy/velocity.
Richard Lee (of Lee Precision) has written that when the goal is precision, it's possible volume is a better way to meter out charges than weight.
A friend of mine gets very good SDs using a Chargemaster which cannot resolve down to the kernel.
For a given powder/primer/bullet/barrel combination there are often nodes .06 to .08 grains wide wherein the same velocity is produced.
There's plenty of evidence to support the idea that weighing to the individual kernel is not required to produce precision ammo.
Still, my A&D/autotrickler/autothrower combo throws charges faster and with greater precision (-0/+1 kernel) than either I can throw manually or my friend's Chargemaster can throw automatically. It can't hurt that the charges are so close in weight IMHO.
A friend of mine gets very good SDs using a Chargemaster which cannot resolve down to the kernel.
For a given powder/primer/bullet/barrel combination there are often nodes .06 to .08 grains wide wherein the same velocity is produced.
There's plenty of evidence to support the idea that weighing to the individual kernel is not required to produce precision ammo.
Still, my A&D/autotrickler/autothrower combo throws charges faster and with greater precision (-0/+1 kernel) than either I can throw manually or my friend's Chargemaster can throw automatically. It can't hurt that the charges are so close in weight IMHO.
Id love to see proof what an extra $4830 for the Prometheus gets me on steel or on paper...
I'm guessing its minute at best.
I'm guessing its minute at best.
Agree, I doubt it is much which is the point I was making in my post. I have the auto trickler setup and the gains going from cm to the auto trickler are small enough I really don’t know if it can be justified. I don’t think it can be justified on paper, doubt there is much gain there, a little maybe but not much. The stepup from the cm to autotrickler is almost purely a time and convenience saver, so your paying $700 for that and perhaps a slight increase in precision. Then the stepup from autotrickler to Prometheus is almost the same thing but for $4100 increase in price for a much smaller time and convenience saver and very slight increase in precision. If you can afford 4100 for very slight increase in performance that doesn’t translate to steel or paper, get after it but I would say the majority of people cannot.
Like I said for for me it is hard to justify going to the autotrickler because on paper there is only minimal gain if any and honestly not a huge time saver and can’t balme anyone if they think the autotrickler is an extravagance. I think that the Prometheus is an extravagance and because of that I do not believe it is the “best” powder dispenser.
How is the Prometheus going to deliver greater precision than a milligram lab balance that weighs down to the single kernel? Does the Prometheus cut kernels in half?
I don’t seem to remember saying anything about it being more accurate, I said it is more precise. You are right the Prometheus is not more accurate than the A&D/auto trickler but it is more precise and like I said above only slightly. I would rather a powder dispenser be more precise than accurate, I don’t care if it was possible to weight to 0.0001 accuracy, all I care about is that it throws 42.7 1000 times without it being different. That being said, I cannot see the difference in precision between the two translating to paper for me, which is really all that matters.
Yeah on a 5 shot string. I bet if you put the CM up against the Auto Throw and did a 30 shot string over the Chrono the SD would be much better for the AT even being in the middle of a node. Will the difference in SD be significant enough to tell the difference. Not sure. These guys are going to test it out.
I have. My Magneto Speed mounts to my rail and not my barrel. I'll post a picture of that data when I get a chance, it's single digit as well.
What I was meaning about my chrony mounting to my barrel is that I almost always shoot with it attached...
I think it answers it and it doesn't if that makes sense? 600 yards is a good distance to check vertical but 1000 would've been better. On another note the Harrel's for instance with the 6x47 load had twice the sd/es but had almost as goo of a group as the AT and Prometheus. the ES was 34 with the Harrel's and 11 and 14 on the AT and P respectively. That being said I don't think the groups are the best way to measure the value of different powder drops(human error and such, wind, etc). The CM and Hornady both had worse groups but better SD/ES than the Harrel's. Either way the ES/SD from the AT and P were almost half the CM and Hornady. That makes a difference somewhere.
Interestingly enough in the 6.5 gas gun the ES/SD's were a lot closer. Maybe thats just a function of a gas gun and why they're harder to tune for long distance. Not a gas gun guy so I don't know.
6x47 Powder throw SD Group size with flyers
P- ES/SD 14/4.66 .016 3.626
AT-ES/SD 11/3.23 .021 3.475
CM-ES/SD 23/7.29 .092 4.114
HOR-ES/SD 24/9.62 .113 4.819
HAR-ES/SD 34/11.47 .161 3.736
6.5CM Powder throw SD Group size with flyers
P-ES/SD 33/11.46 .019 8.776
AT-ES/SD 28/8.52 .015 7.480
CM-ES/SD 32/9.90 .075 6.536
HOR-ES/SD 39/12.39 .054 9.759
HAR-ES/SD 23/7.60 .014 5.405
Interestingly enough in the 6.5 gas gun the ES/SD's were a lot closer. Maybe thats just a function of a gas gun and why they're harder to tune for long distance. Not a gas gun guy so I don't know.
6x47 Powder throw SD Group size with flyers
P- ES/SD 14/4.66 .016 3.626
AT-ES/SD 11/3.23 .021 3.475
CM-ES/SD 23/7.29 .092 4.114
HOR-ES/SD 24/9.62 .113 4.819
HAR-ES/SD 34/11.47 .161 3.736
6.5CM Powder throw SD Group size with flyers
P-ES/SD 33/11.46 .019 8.776
AT-ES/SD 28/8.52 .015 7.480
CM-ES/SD 32/9.90 .075 6.536
HOR-ES/SD 39/12.39 .054 9.759
HAR-ES/SD 23/7.60 .014 5.405
Well pretty much what I said in my earlier post other than I was wrong about the precision being better on the Prometheus. I said I didn’t think there was much improvement going from cm to autotrickler (i have autotrickler setup now) and it appears there isn’t but I thought they would show a little bit of improvement in SD’s going to the Prometheus from autotrickler but it appears they are pretty much identical. So the Prometheus saves you time, which I was surprised was as much as it was, I figured it was somewhere around 2-3 seconds time saving. So I will say that the time savings is high enough that if you load in the 10,000 round range per year the time savings is more significant than I though (around 22hrs for 10,000 rounds).
Still in my opinion and based on this video the autotrickler is still the best but that is the best for me, I only load around 3000 rounds per year over probably 20 loading sessions (150rds per load session). So the Prometheus would buy me 6.5 hrs approximately per year or 20mins per loading session for an additional $2,500 to $4,000 depending on leasing or buying. Think I’ll stick with the autotrickler and this video just reassured me on the decision that I had already made before they put out this video and for anyone sticking with the charge master it should reassure them of that decision.
For those that assert that the Prometheus is the best and none of the other options out there should be in the same conversation with it, that video should assure them they are completely wrong. I think most of us knew that already though, just making sure we are on the same page though.
Still in my opinion and based on this video the autotrickler is still the best but that is the best for me, I only load around 3000 rounds per year over probably 20 loading sessions (150rds per load session). So the Prometheus would buy me 6.5 hrs approximately per year or 20mins per loading session for an additional $2,500 to $4,000 depending on leasing or buying. Think I’ll stick with the autotrickler and this video just reassured me on the decision that I had already made before they put out this video and for anyone sticking with the charge master it should reassure them of that decision.
For those that assert that the Prometheus is the best and none of the other options out there should be in the same conversation with it, that video should assure them they are completely wrong. I think most of us knew that already though, just making sure we are on the same page though.
Obviously there is a point of diminishing returns. When you look at the data for the AT and P in the 6x47 the P throws slightly better as far as powder drop sd's but the ES/SD of the P is higher. I think that everyone is shooting for the ES/SD's that the P and AT threw with the 6x47. I've been able to get down to an ES/SD of 25/8 with my 6.5CM and ONCE I got it down to 15/6 out of a 10 shot group with the CM but its not been consistent. I have an AT on order and I believe that it will get me into the 10-15 ES and 6-3 SD consistently! I think that's the allure of the AT over the CM. You get speed and consistency upgrades. Yeah it costs $600 more but in this game that's very little!
If powder/kernel composition is accurate enough so that weight directly equals burn rate then we're definitely on to something. That video proved about nothing as far as I see it. Too many variables come into play. Great attempt though - I enjoyed watching...
Well your right it’s not the only variable in the equation but it is one of them. If you have that attitude I guess you just put just dump whatever comes out of the powder thrower in to the case. It’s pretty obvious there is some affect in smaller changes of powder weight, I mean like .1 grain not .02 grain and like I said earlier I care little about how accurate my scale reads for the most part as long as it precise, meaning if it will throw the same charge every time even after it’s been turned off then back on. I do think variations in the .2 range have a dramatic effect and that is about what you can get with the Chargemaster if you are not careful and if you are careful you still get .1 variations.
Also, pretty nice way to thanks someone that has taken their personal time & money (since bullets cost money) to try and help the shooting community answer a question many people have been asking. Is it a definitive answer? Was it the perfect scientific approach to the question? No and no but at least they tried and at least it does give us some information that we didn’t have. Maybe you don’t care but some of us do.
Id like to see if done with a a small stick as well (finer ball powders dont jive with the auto throw) but I doubt that would change the results too much.
When I was dumping H4350 with my CM I was having experiences like they had with the hornady, every other charge was over thrown significantly. So my time per individual charge was fine but it took 2-3 additional scrap throws for every usable one. Thats actually what pushed me to the auto throw, not the internal and external ballistic results. However I have gone from an SD of 10-14 to 6-10 with the auto throw so that was just icing on the cake. Smaller powders gave me no issues on a CM which is really the only reason I brought up my first point.
When I was dumping H4350 with my CM I was having experiences like they had with the hornady, every other charge was over thrown significantly. So my time per individual charge was fine but it took 2-3 additional scrap throws for every usable one. Thats actually what pushed me to the auto throw, not the internal and external ballistic results. However I have gone from an SD of 10-14 to 6-10 with the auto throw so that was just icing on the cake. Smaller powders gave me no issues on a CM which is really the only reason I brought up my first point.
I'm just here to learn and out of 15 years and 15+ web forums I participate in Orkan is the *FIRST* time I've ever used forum software "Ignore" feature.
Best. Forum. Feature. Ever.
Best. Forum. Feature. Ever.
If anything I hope the prometheus guys will see that they arent the only show in town and do something about their price...
So apparently with the rebates the a&d fx120i setup has sold like hot cakes and does not appear that it can be ordered from @CE Products site at the moment. Can anyone point me in the direction of another source? Or I see the same setup can be had from CE with the 300i scale for minimal increase in price. Any input on downside to having the 300 instead of the 120? Any drawback to this when most of my loads will be 37-84 grains depending on cartridge and powder combo? Is a 120 scale more ideal than a 300 on the low end of its capacity?
Here is a 10 shot string shot from a 6.5cm AR. Loaded on two different chargemasters.
