I was looking for any powder that may have come in over the last couple of days from a local shop today. I found a brand new black SCAR 17S just waiting to be purchased. It could have been mine had I been willing to pay 3299.99 for it. I think I'll pass
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Scar 17s
- Thread starter Shoots 700's
- Start date
Very fair price, and they are a great rifle. I do not own one as I have 3 rifles that use the 308 pmags and I need more mags in my gun closet like Michael Moore needs more fat.
I have come close to getting them still, but if I come home with another 308 carbine my wife is going to hit me with it.
I have come close to getting them still, but if I come home with another 308 carbine my wife is going to hit me with it.
It's a great rifle. Price is relative to your wallet. I think I paid $2900 for mine (FDE) a year ago.
The SCAR-H is a nice rifle but no way would I drop $3200 on it when I could get a well-optioned GAP-10 for less. Granted it is a battle rifle not a precision rifle so apples to oranges, but battle rifles should be cheaper than precision rigs.
Weren't these going for around $2000 before the most recent scare?
Weren't these going for around $2000 before the most recent scare?
No, never. They were around 3000$ the SCAR L's were around 2000 and some change, I picked up a SCAR L locally for 2300. The cheapest I saw a SCAR H was 3050.
This must have been a steal then for 2500.00 wish I had the cash
https://floridaguntrader.com/index.php?a=2&b=295564
or this one for 2000.00
https://floridaguntrader.com/index.php?a=2&b=292471
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Retail pricing was between $2,800 and 3,000 before the insanity. The problem was magazine availability, as they were scarce well before January. They pop up from time to time, but you have to be vigilant. A FN specific forum runs a thread on the subject, and those guys snatch up mags priced at MSRP pretty quick.
Personally, I like the rifle, and the similar ergonomics to an AR platform make it a fairly easy transition - however the trigger is not suited for precision use.
Personally, I like the rifle, and the similar ergonomics to an AR platform make it a fairly easy transition - however the trigger is not suited for precision use.
I would say the bottom ad is definitely a scam and most likely the top one. You have to be very careful on craigslist, armslist, and etc. as they have a known scamming problem.
The cheapest I've seen the SCAR 17S is at $2,700 - $2,500 if you are lucky.
I would consider the SCAR 17 SSR for $3K if they released it, but not a battle rifle - not in this day in age where we have precision rifles in a battle rifle form like the KAC ECC, Larue OBR, and GAP
Interesting that the magazine supply issue is such a problem. Seeing as they are just FN FAL mags with the addition of a cut-out for the different magazine release, I would figure people would just start modifying FAL mags.
FAL and PMAGS can be modified, and theres a decent youtube video of someone sanding down a PMAG to fit a SCAR. I've have no first hand experience modifying them, but agree it doesn't look too complicated. Regardless, people still want the factory mags when they spend that kind of money for a rifle, and FN's not exactly winning friends by selling it with only mag.
The supply of the FN SCAR mags was very low before the ban, and they went from about $55/ea, to above $200 during the peak of market insanity. I've seen them online since for about $75, which isn't bad considering 1.) the cost of the rifle you're feeding, and 2.) the price before January.
The supply of the FN SCAR mags was very low before the ban, and they went from about $55/ea, to above $200 during the peak of market insanity. I've seen them online since for about $75, which isn't bad considering 1.) the cost of the rifle you're feeding, and 2.) the price before January.
I thought they were over priced when they were selling for $2700 here in Prescott, AZ. No way would I spend what thet are going for now.
Equip a SCAR 17 with a Gissele or Shooing Sight trigger and it will be very precise and lighter than most "battle" rifles. I've bought a number of FN mags in the past 2 months for $42.00 and some polymer Thurmolds for $22.00. However, I did pay $3400 for the rifle new from my LGS in the February panic period. I thought it well worth it then and still do.
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Like I said, it is a fair price for current market and it is not that much more than what they were at their release. If 200~500$ is going to break you, perhaps you should be looking at something else. As others have stated, the magazine issue is a huge turn off to me. And I think my Sig 716 and LMT MWS do fine enough for those roles, if the SCAR H did take my Pmags, I would probably own one, I really do like my SCAR L.
I am not trying to be a jerk here, the guy has a gun that is local, doesn't have to worry about dealing with shipping/fees, nor worry about the weirdness of gunbroker sometimes. Some of the prices on gunbroker by the way, are cash only... Suddenly that price goes up quite a bit when you whip out Mr CC.
Even local shops around me, will give you a cash discount, perhaps this dealer will as well.
I am not trying to be a jerk here, the guy has a gun that is local, doesn't have to worry about dealing with shipping/fees, nor worry about the weirdness of gunbroker sometimes. Some of the prices on gunbroker by the way, are cash only... Suddenly that price goes up quite a bit when you whip out Mr CC.
Even local shops around me, will give you a cash discount, perhaps this dealer will as well.
Right now you can get a scar for 2800-2900 plus shipping if you look hard enough. Fn forum had a brand new one went for 2850 shipped. I am never that lucky as i live in CA so the price is more like 3700-3900 for a new one after all commie tax and fees, but free states can get them for much cheaper providing you get them online from out of states.
Right now the supply for the SCAR is abundant, it is just he hype that drives the prices up. It will die down soon after the craziness in politics go away. However, there is also a slight chance it will not go away. But damn i hope it doesnt go that route.
Right now the supply for the SCAR is abundant, it is just he hype that drives the prices up. It will die down soon after the craziness in politics go away. However, there is also a slight chance it will not go away. But damn i hope it doesnt go that route.
I bought a SCAR 16 back in 2011 for about $2,600 from a local gun store, and they had a SCAR 17 there for $3,200. They were flying off the shelves at those prices a couple of years ago in my area. (I got the last SCAR 16 the store had and was filling out my background paperwork when another customer came in ready to buy it.) Prices dropped over the next year by a few hundred dollars, and I started seeing SCAR 17s for about $2,700. They may come down to that range again over the next few months, but $3,200 is not an unheard of price for the SCAR 17.
I have no idea what options there are for the SCAR 17 mags, but I have been able to modify PMags for the SCAR 16 with nothing more than a small pocket knife and about two minutes of my time. Using a Dremel, it can be done in 30 seconds.
I will only add that I love my SCAR 16. It is my favorite carbine.
I have no idea what options there are for the SCAR 17 mags, but I have been able to modify PMags for the SCAR 16 with nothing more than a small pocket knife and about two minutes of my time. Using a Dremel, it can be done in 30 seconds.
I will only add that I love my SCAR 16. It is my favorite carbine.
On the topic of the SCAR, I have never shot one, but how does the recoil on the 17s compared to that of other .308 caliber rifles? I have handled one before and it seems to have a very heavy bolt carrier. Is that the reason why the recoil is so soft? I meant the gun is very light so I assumed that it would be hell to shoot it in .308 caliber.
Yes, the Scar 17's recoil is extrodinarily light. Lighter than either my SR 25 ECC or my OBR. However, it is loud as a son of a bitch.
The scar 16 in 223 where selling around 2000-2500 the scar 17 308 was selling around 28-3200 dollars. During the scare I placed my friends on gunbroker and he got 5700 dollars that was actually paid for it.
Anyone saying that the gun is not worth 3200 has never shot one. I would say the recoil on mine is about the same as my 223 LWRC. Further more its a semi auto that shoots 3/4 moa. I can use the gun out to 1000 yards, hitting a larue. I have always been in love with the M1a as my semi 308 until I bought my scar, now there is no comparison.
You will spend 3-4 k on a gap gun, run it and tell us how good it is, yet you complain about a gun you have never fired. It makes no sense for half the comments on here. Your gonna complain about something you know nothing about. LOL
Anyone saying that the gun is not worth 3200 has never shot one. I would say the recoil on mine is about the same as my 223 LWRC. Further more its a semi auto that shoots 3/4 moa. I can use the gun out to 1000 yards, hitting a larue. I have always been in love with the M1a as my semi 308 until I bought my scar, now there is no comparison.
You will spend 3-4 k on a gap gun, run it and tell us how good it is, yet you complain about a gun you have never fired. It makes no sense for half the comments on here. Your gonna complain about something you know nothing about. LOL
Damn... You guys aren't making it any easier for me to resist buying a scar 17s hahaha.
The design on the gun is surprisingly amazing. Everything is modular. 1 take down pin to disassemble the entire thing. Yet it is one piece solid when put together. The weight of the weapon is again... eff'ing amazing! Simplicity and efficiency at its highest.
Damn I am talking myself into one again.
BTW: I heard that if you swap out the PWS flash hider to an AAC, I heard it got a lot better with the noise.
The design on the gun is surprisingly amazing. Everything is modular. 1 take down pin to disassemble the entire thing. Yet it is one piece solid when put together. The weight of the weapon is again... eff'ing amazing! Simplicity and efficiency at its highest.
Damn I am talking myself into one again.
BTW: I heard that if you swap out the PWS flash hider to an AAC, I heard it got a lot better with the noise.
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Damn... You guys aren't making it any easier for me to resist buying a scar 17s hahaha.
The design on the gun is surprisingly amazing. Everything is modular. 1 take down pin to disassemble the entire thing. Yet it is one piece solid when put together. The weight of the weapon is again... eff'ing amazing! Simplicity and efficiency at its highest.
Damn I am talking myself into one again.
BTW: I heard that if you swap out the PWS flash hider to an AAC, I heard it got a lot better with the noise.
It's a phenomenal piece of kit. I'm very happy with mine. I've also heard that changing the brake can tame its report, but honestly, it doesn't bother me that much (can't speak for the people around me though).
Not sure how much of a hassle it is to make one CA. compliant, but if its not too much, I'd highly recommend one.Your ignorance and superior attitude should be an embarrassment but I bet you seem to bear them with pride.
GAP-10 prices start at $2,750 which is a far cry from the $3,000 to $4,000 you wrongfully claim: G.A. Precision GAP-10
Yes, you can throw every option available at it but then you need to compare the SCAR-H with new trigger, suppressor adaptor, and all the goodies as well.
As for your asinine claim of: "Anyone saying that the gun is not worth 3200 has never shot one." and further retarded comments such as: "you complain about a gun you have never fired" and: "Your gonna complain about something you know nothing about. LOL", where do I begin?
I do not own a SCAR-H but have one issued to me as a personal weapon. I have shot them plenty over the course of several years both suppressed and un-suppressed with multiple set-ups, as well as full-and semi-auto. While I would not consider myself an expert, I know plenty about their strengths and weaknesses. While I am happy with their performance and impressed with the accuracy of the majority of them, I do not see them as being worth $3,300 dollars plus taxes and fees. That is my determination based off my EXPERIENCE which you are completely unworthy of determining for me.
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My biggest concern with the SCAR-H or -17 is the issue of trashing optics with the resonant frequency harmonics phenomenon. Not only do you have to spend the money for the gun, but you are very limited in what optics can take the beating, and even NightForce will fail under enough abuse.
That's a deal-breaker for me, but my intentions of building a .308 Multi-Purpose carbine were ruined by the 6.5 Grendel 4 years ago.
Everything I'm hearing and seeing from guys who have had them issued within USASOC is that they love the lightweight, but the issues are significant enough to cause apprehension or disregard by many towards the system if it's going to rattle your scope's innards apart.
That's a deal-breaker for me, but my intentions of building a .308 Multi-Purpose carbine were ruined by the 6.5 Grendel 4 years ago.
Everything I'm hearing and seeing from guys who have had them issued within USASOC is that they love the lightweight, but the issues are significant enough to cause apprehension or disregard by many towards the system if it's going to rattle your scope's innards apart.
Ive heard that about the optics, but everyone I know with a SCAR loves it and hasn't had a single issue... none of them use cheap optics though either. I didn't like them until I saw one with the VLTOR kit on it, then I decided I have to get one, just waiting for a decent price or for one of the LEO distributors to get one (not likely for a LONG time!). A couple of my buddies use them for 3 gun and competition with aimpoints and have no issues, another has a Trijicon 3-9 scope, another with a NF. Maybe they don't abuse them enough or maybe its certain ammo. One runs suppressed, the rest have the factory PWS brake on them, most use surplus ammo with occasional match 168s or so. I hope to get one myself to test out, but ive only seen a few in stock locally at $3000-3400 and that's just too much for a gun IMO worth $2500, especially when I have to drop coin to get the VLTOR stuff to get rid of the space boot, and drop a trigger in so it doesn't feel like something that belongs in the hands of the NYPD (glock 12 lb trigger joke for those who don't get it)
Recoil is about the same as my 20" P308....Which is a pig for weight. Now consider that the SCAR17's unloaded weighs 7.9 lbs that's a bit less felt recoil per weight with the factory brake.
If you know where to look you can easily find factory mags from 38-41 and have 20 within a month's time. Thermolds suck balls, good for malfunction drills and barely plinking around at the range even then they might piss you off. Buy the mags first get a few in hand then buy the rifle.
As for the Geissele trigger....They are NOT hard to find and haven't been since the beginning of the year. Every week like clockwork at 12:02 PM EVERY Wednesday Geissele-time they are restocked on their website for $325. There is no reason to pay more and if you order direct from Geissele you get free swag thrown in and it will ship the same day.
The SCAR factory triggers suck for pull weight. They feel like a 50lb trigger - no real creep just heavy.
Get a Geissele and keep the factory as a spare. Consider that in the current purchase price because even Johnny Cochran says the factory SCAR trigger has a ridiculous pull weight. (Google it, if you don't understand the reference).
If you know where to look you can easily find factory mags from 38-41 and have 20 within a month's time. Thermolds suck balls, good for malfunction drills and barely plinking around at the range even then they might piss you off. Buy the mags first get a few in hand then buy the rifle.
As for the Geissele trigger....They are NOT hard to find and haven't been since the beginning of the year. Every week like clockwork at 12:02 PM EVERY Wednesday Geissele-time they are restocked on their website for $325. There is no reason to pay more and if you order direct from Geissele you get free swag thrown in and it will ship the same day.
The SCAR factory triggers suck for pull weight. They feel like a 50lb trigger - no real creep just heavy.
Get a Geissele and keep the factory as a spare. Consider that in the current purchase price because even Johnny Cochran says the factory SCAR trigger has a ridiculous pull weight. (Google it, if you don't understand the reference).
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What are some of the issues that you have ran in with the SCAR while using it in service? Id like to know about this. I have been wanting a .308 rifle platform and based on the reviews and satisfaction, I am really thinking of getting a SCAR for its lightweight and nice recoil with decent accuracy. AR-10 is a good platform but i wanted something different. Hk91 and FAL dont seem to have that good of accuracy.
What optics have ya found to be working with it so far with the beating?
One of the biggest costs of the SCAR17 is the fact that it's a proprietary system, FN is the only maker, they can charge what the market will bear. The AR-10 style rifle has several manufacturers, from complete rifles to parts to assemble yourself.
Comparing the cost of a SCAR to a GAP-10, as was stated, is an apples to oranges camparison. You should compare the cost of the GAP-10 to a DPMS. In the semi-auto shootout how many of the top rifles were DPMS, costing a third of a GAP-10?
Comparing the cost of a SCAR to a GAP-10, as was stated, is an apples to oranges camparison. You should compare the cost of the GAP-10 to a DPMS. In the semi-auto shootout how many of the top rifles were DPMS, costing a third of a GAP-10?
Can't speak for anyone else's experience, but I've run about 3000 rounds thru mine using an Elcan 1.5-6x, with absolutely zero issues (including a carbine class). I too had read about the Scar's recoil impulse causing problems with optics, so I was a little apprehensive myself. But so far, so good. Keep in mind that I'm not fighting insurgents in the sandbox, so mileage may vary. Overall, I am very pleased with it's performance. What it lacks in pure accuracy, it makes up in being able to eat anything you feed her. Just my 2 cents.
Peace
Peace
I have seen the thread here on the Hide about the SCARs eating optics but haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary as far as failure rates. We were running the 1-4x Elcan on the SCAR for a while and had no issues. Now we have several new SCARs that came with the 1.5-6x Elcan and have not had any fail yet, but they are new. In my experience, I have seen quite a few Elcans fail on the M-4s and they are not that old, so I wouldn't hold it against the SCAR if one of the new Elcans broke anyways. I would just figure it was another failed Elcan.
As for issues with the SCAR, in my opinion they are all minor. Our triggers are not nearly as bad as what guys here are complaining about, but if it were my personal rifle I would still put a Geissele in it. There were issues with the button for the folding stock button breaking and also allowing the stock to accidently fold if hit hard enough. We fixed it with a $50 replacement button made of metal instead of plastic.
I have also seen the selector switch which is kind of thin plastic break. Pretty sure I have seen a metal replacement for that as well.
The original SCARs we had were really annoying to shoot as the prong-style flash hider rang like a tuning fork when fired. They have revised that style of flash hider and it doesn't ring now, instead they break. We got a safety notice a few weeks ago put out by Crane to inspect the new flash hiders before and after firing for cracks. I started a thread on the Hide about it but we took it down since nobody seemed to have that style flash-hider and it wasn't from Surefire like I initially thought. It had devolved into a Crane-bashing thread anyhow.
A lot of operators also complained about the ergonomics on it but I think they are fine. FN was wise to keep the control layout similar to the AR. Some people dislike the reciprocating charging handle as it can get stuck on things, and cause malfunctions if you have your thumb in the way or shooting off the side of barricades. It doesn't bother me though as I keep my thumb out of the way and since it reciprocates it doubles as a forward assist. With optics mounted you can bang your knuckles on the base as you use the charging handle, but once again there is a company that offers an angled handle for better clearance.
Oh, never mind. According to PrebanPaul nobody on this thread has any experience with the SCAR-H except him. Maybe he can come back and grace you with his vast knowledge of the subject...
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It sounds like a pretty darn good platform to shoot .308. I was concerned to hear about the optics problem, but it seems to be ok now that you confirm it.
. I have handled a SCAR too, and the trigger seems to be just like a stock AR with a little more pull. I haven't felt a Geissele Super Scar yet, but I assume it to be pretty similar to the feel on an AR15 Geissele. About the flash hider, just want to clarify. The one that rings is the AAC 51 Tooth like this:
And the one that breaks is the PWS Type that comes with the stock commercial SCAR right? Like this one:
I was thinking of putting a Surefire or AAC 51 3 prongs if I get a SCAR, what do you think about the loud noise issue? My left ear has been ringing since I shot a round of 45acp at an indoor range without my hearing protection on properly.
The SCAR might make both of them go ringing hahaha. Btw, I appreciate all the info McCrazy.
Nightwolf- the original flash hider/suppressor that rang when fired was similar to the AAC one you show. Was a different model but the prongs were the same.
The new ones we have are completely different than the commercial one you posted. Look like this (sorry for the crappy pic, internet is too slow to edit in photobucket):
As for the suppressor, I would get something different than the 3 prong AAC design. It really is annoying, although you start ignoring the ring. Would go with a Surefire probably. They also have 3 prong designs but hopefully without the ringing.
The new ones we have are completely different than the commercial one you posted. Look like this (sorry for the crappy pic, internet is too slow to edit in photobucket):
As for the suppressor, I would get something different than the 3 prong AAC design. It really is annoying, although you start ignoring the ring. Would go with a Surefire probably. They also have 3 prong designs but hopefully without the ringing.
Darn. I was hoping the 3 prongs would solve the loud noise problem all together. Im in CA so no can for me. But if something cool and does not deafen me is great. you are like scar wiki!
Would you recommend the scar over an ar 10 platform, such as sig 716 or PoF 308?
you are like scar wiki!Would you recommend the scar over an ar 10 platform, such as sig 716 or PoF 308?
I'll admit that Scar's aren't exactly quiet, but may I ask why you're so concerned about decibel levels as to pertains to living in CA? If you wear hearing pro, you'll be perfectly fine. Owning a few .308 AR's, I wouldn't disqualify the Scar based on it being a little louder than my other semi auto .308's. It's not like any .308 (unsupressed, of course) is going to be a quiet shooter. But for the record, I think you'd be pleased with any of the quality AR 308's out there.
You should definitely wear hearing protection when shooting which you apparently don't if a .45 ACP made your ears ring. Tinnitus is not a fun thing to have: Tinnitus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As for getting an AR-10 or a SCAR that is a decision you need to make for yourself. If I were looking for a battle rifle, I would go with a SCAR when the price becomes agreeable to me as they are a fine choice and I think by design they will be a very durable and reliable rifle that is inherently pretty accurate. If I were looking for a precision semi-auto rifle then the AR-10 would be my choice as there are more options to wring more accuracy out of them and gunsmiths who know how to do it.
As for getting an AR-10 or a SCAR that is a decision you need to make for yourself. If I were looking for a battle rifle, I would go with a SCAR when the price becomes agreeable to me as they are a fine choice and I think by design they will be a very durable and reliable rifle that is inherently pretty accurate. If I were looking for a precision semi-auto rifle then the AR-10 would be my choice as there are more options to wring more accuracy out of them and gunsmiths who know how to do it.
Have you considered purchasing one through a FNH MIL/LE dealer. They offer fixed pricing fom FNH. I bought one during the craze for $2590 with 2 extra mags and tax. I also paid with my check card, but this shop didn't add any fees. The shop was Shooter's Supply in Louisville KY.
Really the shorter the barrel the louder the gun. Also a loud muzzle brake is usually very effective
I own a 16 & 17. I have a USO 1-6 on the 17. I've owned a LWRC M6A2 and a GAP AR10 on a Armalite platform, and the 17 feels like it has less recoil than the GAP10 IMHO. I love both the SCARs. I put Timney triggers in them, but I wish that I would have installed a Geissele. The stock triggers are heavy pigs. The 17 is a lighter sweet shooter, but it isn't a 1/2 MOA precision gas gun. You can replace the lower on the 17 with an aftermarket one than accepts PMAGS. I shoot a Thunderbeast 30BA on the 16 & 17 with their proprietary brake. BTW - I paid $3500 on here for a NIB 17, 3 mags, and a new Aimpoint M2 during the height of the bull$hit scare. It really doesn't matter what other people think. Buy what you like and can afford
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It may be a battle rifle , but my SCAR 17s shoots better then my Larue OBR and LMT MWS did. I could have gotten a jewel in the rough, and I was shocked, but certainly dont count the SCAR out as being a very accurate rifle. Mine absolutely loves the FGM 7.62x51
Beenjammin,
Your collection sounds similar to mine (SCAR, OBR's, ECC). But when you say your Scar "shoots better" than your OBR and LMT, are you meaning to say its more accurate? If so, then you really do have a jewel. Even with the super Scar trigger in mine, I'm barely able to get .8-.9 groups. On average my 17s is a 1 MOA shooter....which is more than accurate enough for a Battle Rifle in my opinion. However, if you meant more reliable, then yes, I find that that's my experience as well.
This has been my experience as well, accuracy is superior on my ECC, recoil is similar, but the scar is FAR handier.
Although I do not have measurements to prove it, I would be willing to bet the SCAR 17s is no louder or quieter (withing normal bounds of variation) than any other 16" barreled .308 with a similar brake. It is not the general weapon type or brand that makes the loudness, like the other fellow said it is more about barrel length and of course the brake.
I also don't buy for a second that SCARs due to some unique (hocus-pocus harmonics) are any harder on optics than any other .308 semi-auto. Sure it is a bit lighter than most and that will tend to cause heavier recoil. However, counteracting that are a very heavy bolt carrier which most agree contribute to making it a very light recoiling weapon (in its class). The amount of recoil is almost for sure the driving factor on potential damage rather than some BS "harmonics". It basic really basic physics. The shock response spectrum seen at the optics primarily depends on the round and rifle weight. It is this SRS that defines the boundary between damage or no damage to sensitive parts such as electronics.
Just to be clear I know exactly what harmonics are, they are real and have plenty of place in a discussion about accuracy. I just think in the context of scope damage this is completely barking up the wrong tree...
I also don't buy for a second that SCARs due to some unique (hocus-pocus harmonics) are any harder on optics than any other .308 semi-auto. Sure it is a bit lighter than most and that will tend to cause heavier recoil. However, counteracting that are a very heavy bolt carrier which most agree contribute to making it a very light recoiling weapon (in its class). The amount of recoil is almost for sure the driving factor on potential damage rather than some BS "harmonics". It basic really basic physics. The shock response spectrum seen at the optics primarily depends on the round and rifle weight. It is this SRS that defines the boundary between damage or no damage to sensitive parts such as electronics.
Just to be clear I know exactly what harmonics are, they are real and have plenty of place in a discussion about accuracy. I just think in the context of scope damage this is completely barking up the wrong tree...
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My understanding is that Crane has a list of common optics issued within SOCOM, with a reduced life expectancy rating for each when used with the SCAR. Guys in USASOC broke the selectors and stocks within the 1st week of them being issued, but like the lightweight. If there is less mass in the gun, then maybe the optics are absorbing more G's, and resonant G's at a faster frequency.
One thing I like about the SCAR is the longitudinal track length for the cam pin, and I think this helps out with managing the dwell time better than the AR15 and AR10. Another issue I learned about the SCAR bolt fatigue and catastrophic failures was somehow induced by the bolt catch putting pressure upwards on the bcg, causing misaligned bolt engagement in the extension.
All the things I'm discussing are from guns that are run in torturous schedules that would make most gun owners cry if they saw their firearm run like a raped ape day after day. If someone has better knowledge, you can share it with Crane and tell them to update their advisories/MTBF stats with certain optics.
ETA: I also heard from very reliable independent, and not so independent industry sources that they were experiencing bolt fatigue issues with the SCAR-17.
That said, you should expect any new weapon system to go through several years of teething before it has been raised to an acceptable standard.
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SCAR 7.62 or 5.56? Let's see the expectancy ratings... I would also like to know if the 7.62 SCAR 17s "derates" optic lifetimes compared to other 7.62 SA rifles. What rifles used by SOCOM fit that bill and could offer the baseline for such a derating?
Furthermore from a technical perspective G's are not absorbed nor absorbed at faster frequencies... The entire rifle is subjected to the SRS (shock response spectrum) and then different locations in the optic and in the rifle itself respond with different amplitudes and acceleration levels.
Wow, with the massive and thoughtful bolt design of this rifle that is very surprising. Are the issues a shorter fatigue lifetime compared to a similar AR-10 rifle? I suppose either way such rumors are worth about as much as someones willingness to have their name/source attached to such a rumor.
Until I see some actual evidence in front of me of all these reported scar failures I'll continue to disregard them, I have 2 17's, which are at roughly 8K and 11K respectively and I have had ZERO problems to speak of. Also never managed to have a stock latch break on me despite slamming it open every time I use it.
The bolt geometry on the SCAR-L is what a 5.56 bolt should look like. On the SCAR-H, not so much. The main issues with earlier optics failure has mostly been on the SCAR-H's.
As far as other 7.62 NATO rifles and optics, I'm not aware of a connection between early optics failure and any of the legacy designs, especially the AR10/SR25 and variants. The AR10 bolt is so massive, I have yet to see or hear of catastrophic failures with them. It's kinda like google searching French military victories (Did you mean French military defeats?) when looking for "AR10 kabooms", as it will come back and say, "Did you mean AR15 kabooms?"
The SCAR failures have been well documented within USASOC from the get-go. The first time one of the USASOC Procurement Managers literally took the SCAR to the range, the selector broke on him.
Within the industry, there were people who reported bolt fatigue issues, and they will remain unnamed because they most likely signed NDA's not to air dirty laundry of a weapon system in its initial teething stages, with high hopes for its adoption by FN.
It is well-documented with the SCAR-16 that not all mags worked correctly with them, particularly with the bolt hold-open device and its tendency to ride high and score the bolt,and the industry has responded with mags that will work in the SCAR-16 and SCAR-17, but the original intent was to have cross-commonality with the AR15 mags for the -L.
I don't fault the SCAR for these issues, because every system goes through these teething stages. It appears that most of them have been addressed and resolved, except the way that optics are rattled apart. My biggest concern with the system right off the bat was the sight above bore arrangement, and the short handguard/gas system length. On the prototypes, a lot was taken from the FNC, and I believe the horrible trigger mechanism can trace its inheritance to that weapon.
For those that are satisfied after paying thousands of dollars for one, I hope you truly enjoy them and that they last long enough to be passed on to your children-I really do. For me, I would own one if they were $1200 max just to have one and evaluate it long-term, as I genuinely like some of the internal features of the bolt carrier, but there is no way I would personally shell out that kind of cash for something that FN probably has $800 in. If their price points are designed to keep them out of a lot of people's hands to reduce the likelihood of them ending up on the news in a crime, that makes sense, but there simply isn't $3k in one.
$3k would barely be justifiable for a Sniper Support Rifle SCAR Variant with an accuracy guarantee of .75 MOA for 10 rounds of match ammo, but not a lightweight battle carbine mass-manufactured with modern production technology and an atrocious trigger weight. Those are just my opinions.
As far as other 7.62 NATO rifles and optics, I'm not aware of a connection between early optics failure and any of the legacy designs, especially the AR10/SR25 and variants. The AR10 bolt is so massive, I have yet to see or hear of catastrophic failures with them. It's kinda like google searching French military victories (Did you mean French military defeats?) when looking for "AR10 kabooms", as it will come back and say, "Did you mean AR15 kabooms?"
The SCAR failures have been well documented within USASOC from the get-go. The first time one of the USASOC Procurement Managers literally took the SCAR to the range, the selector broke on him.
Within the industry, there were people who reported bolt fatigue issues, and they will remain unnamed because they most likely signed NDA's not to air dirty laundry of a weapon system in its initial teething stages, with high hopes for its adoption by FN.
It is well-documented with the SCAR-16 that not all mags worked correctly with them, particularly with the bolt hold-open device and its tendency to ride high and score the bolt,and the industry has responded with mags that will work in the SCAR-16 and SCAR-17, but the original intent was to have cross-commonality with the AR15 mags for the -L.
I don't fault the SCAR for these issues, because every system goes through these teething stages. It appears that most of them have been addressed and resolved, except the way that optics are rattled apart. My biggest concern with the system right off the bat was the sight above bore arrangement, and the short handguard/gas system length. On the prototypes, a lot was taken from the FNC, and I believe the horrible trigger mechanism can trace its inheritance to that weapon.
For those that are satisfied after paying thousands of dollars for one, I hope you truly enjoy them and that they last long enough to be passed on to your children-I really do. For me, I would own one if they were $1200 max just to have one and evaluate it long-term, as I genuinely like some of the internal features of the bolt carrier, but there is no way I would personally shell out that kind of cash for something that FN probably has $800 in. If their price points are designed to keep them out of a lot of people's hands to reduce the likelihood of them ending up on the news in a crime, that makes sense, but there simply isn't $3k in one.
$3k would barely be justifiable for a Sniper Support Rifle SCAR Variant with an accuracy guarantee of .75 MOA for 10 rounds of match ammo, but not a lightweight battle carbine mass-manufactured with modern production technology and an atrocious trigger weight. Those are just my opinions.
^ Your criticisms are starting to sound a bit like some prejudice or ax to grind against the platform.
The 16s and 17s bolts and carriers look very darn near identical to me, just a bit of size/weight/thickness variation here and there. Perhaps you can expand on your "insight" into what the 17s bolt "should" look like.
Do you have the data requested previously or any links to substantiate the claims about hard on optics and what that really means?
How much of these issues happened well before civies could get their hands on a SCAR or even before any agency adoptions? By the way, you really going off topic here with the lengthy editorial criticisms of the rifle.
The only problem with the SCAR trigger is that critical surfaces are not EDM cut and/or ground/polished to be highly smooth. I'd say it is absolutely in the same league as a standard (gritty) milspec AR-15 trigger. The same reason one would throw a very nice Geissele trigger on an AR-15, one would do so with a SCAR.
I agree SCARs are a bit pricey, perhaps even a bit overpriced. However, they have some unique features and performance, especially in terms of the weight and low recoil of the 7.62 version. That being said is also sounds both 100% speculative (and also flat out wrong for that matter) that they are priced to keep them out of crime reports. Statements like that really are further strikes against your credibility, IMHO...
The 16s and 17s bolts and carriers look very darn near identical to me, just a bit of size/weight/thickness variation here and there. Perhaps you can expand on your "insight" into what the 17s bolt "should" look like.
Do you have the data requested previously or any links to substantiate the claims about hard on optics and what that really means?
How much of these issues happened well before civies could get their hands on a SCAR or even before any agency adoptions? By the way, you really going off topic here with the lengthy editorial criticisms of the rifle.
The only problem with the SCAR trigger is that critical surfaces are not EDM cut and/or ground/polished to be highly smooth. I'd say it is absolutely in the same league as a standard (gritty) milspec AR-15 trigger. The same reason one would throw a very nice Geissele trigger on an AR-15, one would do so with a SCAR.
I agree SCARs are a bit pricey, perhaps even a bit overpriced. However, they have some unique features and performance, especially in terms of the weight and low recoil of the 7.62 version. That being said is also sounds both 100% speculative (and also flat out wrong for that matter) that they are priced to keep them out of crime reports. Statements like that really are further strikes against your credibility, IMHO...
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Your defenses are starting to sound like you're an FN rep, or proud SCAR owner who might not want to read this. I would want to know if there is something wrong.
I have zero prejudice against the SCAR. To the contrary, I had genuine high hopes for it. When I first saw a SCAR-H bolt, the first thing that came to mind was, "That is way small for a 7.62 NATO bolt." It was no surprise when I learned that they were having fatigue issues with it, at least back in 2010. I didn't know about the SCAR-L catastrophic failures at that time, and only learned of them last week from a guy who participated in their introduction to one of the units within USASOC.
I just learned of the optics-destroying features in March from two independent persons, both with resumes that you can take to the bank, but don't take my word for it.
Here's a link from FN Forums barely addressing the issue and ridiculing it, but I heard about it from no less than 2 people within USASOC, and one in the PMC community, all of whom have used the SCAR-L and -H extensively. These quotes are ones I just pulled with a simple google search, and it the first time I have seen anything of this online outside of SH, because the word of those I heard it from face-to-face was good enough for me. In certain circles, that type of trust still exists.
1st quote:
"The mass of he SCAR bolt has long been a point of discussion within the community. I have repeatedly talked to FN and Crane folks about this in that this is a well known contributor to the recorded high abrupt peaks in recoil impulse that have contributed to ancillary item breakage from SOPMOD Block II MDNS suite. Conversely, the AR series bolt assembly has a much more manageable bolt mass in the system that gives the residual benefit of a) manageable recoil/controllability in rapid shot sequences and b) more receptive/consistent recoil impulse for ancillary items."
2nd quote:
"the MK17 breaking optics is well documented on lightfighter and is the reason why Eotech beefed up their optics(EXPS line). Aimpoints were not tested, Elcan had to beef up their optics as well to handle the recoil impulse. So yes it is real, is it a problem now days? No it has been fixed but do not act like it is all made up either. SOCOM has the information on it from the SOPMOD II downselects." SCAR: Sharp forward recoil impluse breaking SOPMOD addons? - Page 3
Maybe it is a grand conspiracy by the evil Stoner design crowd, but when I hear from multiple reputable sources within USASOC, SOCOM, and elsewhere that a real issue with destroying optics and electro-optical aiming devices has been identified, it gets my attention.
The topic of this thread is "Scar17s". This is an open forum. Are you sure you want to stick with the statement that I'm off-topic? Just checking that I was in the right thread.
Yup. It was speculative on my part, but not a statement. A statement would look like this:
"Company X makes 100%+ margins on dealer price with product line Y because they want to keep them out of the hands of criminals." You won't find that anywhere in my post, but you will find logical fallacies in yours, just as a matter of fact. My credibility will remain what it is before and after this, that I can promise. All I'm doing is passing on what I feel is important information about a product to many who are interested. The information I have received comes from men I would trust my life with. That is good enough for me.
When this topic came up in another thread, one of the guys in USASOC who actually tested SCARs popped in and backed what I had heard about the optics issue, and I don't know him from Adam. He even posted a pic with him in a HALO rig with the SCAR-L rigged for jumping exposed (not in weapons cases like I'm used to for static-line jumps), and said there were legitimate problems with the system.
Here's the thread: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-semi-auto-rifles/176762-scar-17-optic-opinion.html
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