Rifle Scopes Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

[Insite Arms]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Agreed.
Myself and a buddy were at an extremely well known and respected LongRange/Tac course a while back; all the instructors had extrensive military and real world civ experience. When the Horus reticle came up in conversaton everyone laughed their ass off

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gits</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a debate that will continue to go on whether or not Horus has advantages over the standard mil dot or other reticles. Ultimately it is the shooter behind the reticle that makes all the shots. Older more experienced guys like Lowlight who have been shooting for a while don't need it or see any advantages because they are shooting at such a high level they don't require a Horus reticle or anything fancy. The truth of the matter is LR Precision shooting in the military circle are switching over to Horus and teaching Horus in their courses in addition to the basics. Hell a good 85% + of the teams at the USASOC Comp ran Horus. If there wasn't any sort of advantage to Horus then it wouldn't have been selected and sent downrange on the M2010s. In the end it's all shooter preference debating back and forth is pointless. </div></div>

Lots of corruption when it comes to these choices, you have to look at the money spent and the time put in "selling" these guys on the system.

the lobbying effort is huge, and it is not an organic change, but a calculated sale to a group known to influence decisions.

if people knew what was being done to sell these guys I would bet opinions would change, fast. And you'd stop quoting who is using them, because the "why they are using it" is not so cut and dry. </div></div>

SELL these guys on the system?? I wonder if its because of the "old school" guys that are like "Its too busy", without actually trying the system. ITS MIL-RADIAN BROKEN DOWN, that is all. And yeah they may give a few out or sell them discounted prices... Isnt that the point? to get it out the door to shoot bad guys?? I guess not if some people aren't lining there pockets

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what you are saying is, Horus hasn't been camped out at Range 37, there hasn't been a bunch of discounted or free products floating around to key people. There hasn't been a bunch of personal attention given to people in decision making positions... like week+ personal instruction prior to the military competitions highlighting the product. Guaranteeing a positive finish for those using the reticle.

The Horus has been in and out of the military with mixed reviews since the early 2000s, it's just now, that their lobbying effort has been solidified that it is suddenly, "pretty great". when in year past it was clearly dismissed as, "too busy" among other complaints, that have been well discussed.

The civilian community by and large which has a better track record for setting standards, to include the competition world has largely dismissed it, labeling it less than effective. From the notoriously poor customer service to the named / labeled products lack of reliability. The change all happened recently when key personal in the military were "sold" on the concept. That can all be traced back to the lobbying done by the company. Connecting the dots is not hard too see... </div></div>


Reliability?? We just had one of our original falcons come back from the stan after its SEVENTH trip over there! Every time it was on a SASR, the only reason it broke was an ATV rolled over on the weapon coming off a hill. A phone call and they are replacing it again FREE of cost to get it out the door to shoot bad guys not bulls eyes.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepDog0372</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what you are saying is, Horus hasn't been camped out at Range 37, there hasn't been a bunch of discounted or free products floating around to key people. There hasn't been a bunch of personal attention given to people in decision making positions... like week+ personal instruction prior to the military competitions highlighting the product. Guaranteeing a positive finish for those using the reticle.

The Horus has been in and out of the military with mixed reviews since the early 2000s, it's just now, that their lobbying effort has been solidified that it is suddenly, "pretty great". when in year past it was clearly dismissed as, "too busy" among other complaints, that have been well discussed.

The civilian community by and large which has a better track record for setting standards, to include the competition world has largely dismissed it, labeling it less than effective. From the notoriously poor customer service to the named / labeled products lack of reliability. The change all happened recently when key personal in the military were "sold" on the concept. That can all be traced back to the lobbying done by the company. Connecting the dots is not hard too see... </div></div>


Reliability?? We just had one of our original falcons come back from the stan after its SEVENTH trip over there! Every time it was on a SASR, the only reason it broke was an ATV rolled over on the weapon coming off a hill. A phone call and they are replacing it again FREE of cost to get it out the door to shoot bad guys not bulls eyes. </div></div>

Please,

Just Give it up, you're cheerleading a team and don't even know their record... Having taught Horus classes prior to the current guy, I think I know a bit about the system, the track record, not to mention what it can and cannot do.

Now Go wipe your chin off.

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I've yet to to hear anything to change my assessment: "Not for me. Fair weather shooters can keep it". Too dedicated a system for some pretty limited shooting conditions.

The military can be sold anything if pushed hard enough. There are countless pieces of equipment, some having been bought at huge expense, that really don't cut the mustard; some complete and utter doggy doodar. The "as used by SF" is probably the most overused slogan out there. Means absolutely squat.

I've enjoyed this thread; the two sides of the camp aren't going to change fast. Too big an investment. I know what side I'll be sticking too.

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepDog0372</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what you are saying is, Horus hasn't been camped out at Range 37, there hasn't been a bunch of discounted or free products floating around to key people. There hasn't been a bunch of personal attention given to people in decision making positions... like week+ personal instruction prior to the military competitions highlighting the product. Guaranteeing a positive finish for those using the reticle.

The Horus has been in and out of the military with mixed reviews since the early 2000s, it's just now, that their lobbying effort has been solidified that it is suddenly, "pretty great". when in year past it was clearly dismissed as, "too busy" among other complaints, that have been well discussed.

The civilian community by and large which has a better track record for setting standards, to include the competition world has largely dismissed it, labeling it less than effective. From the notoriously poor customer service to the named / labeled products lack of reliability. The change all happened recently when key personal in the military were "sold" on the concept. That can all be traced back to the lobbying done by the company. Connecting the dots is not hard too see... </div></div>


Reliability?? We just had one of our original falcons come back from the stan after its SEVENTH trip over there! Every time it was on a SASR, the only reason it broke was an ATV rolled over on the weapon coming off a hill. A phone call and they are replacing it again FREE of cost to get it out the door to shoot bad guys not bulls eyes. </div></div>

Please,

Just Give it up, you're cheerleading a team and don't even know their record... Having taught Horus classes prior to the current guy, I think I know a bit about the system, the track record, not to mention what it can and cannot do.

Now Go wipe your chin off. </div></div>

Ok big mouth, I have stated the facts of the HV scopes reliability, you have nothing say alot of crap that sounds like "I know something you dont know" but you haven't given any REAL data to back up your mouth. Let me guess either your a bitter old school SF guy who fears change and doesn't wanna be left behind or a wanna be which is it?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

One anecdotal statement is not real data

I can tell you when teaching a Horus class to the 101st, their were several scopes that broke on the line, and Wes had to stay after to take care them, as well there was one scope that adjusted "backwards" and didn't work.

I can say this board is filled with tales of "broken" scopes and poor customers services stories, just try using the Google Search on the site -------->

Heck I have a Horus ATRAG I will sell you for full price, never used because it was incorrectly formatted from the start and I have yet to get Horus to replace it. So you can buy it off me then just roll right into that no-nonsense warranty.

Not bitter at all, I was introduced to Horus a long, long, time ago by John Sr @ USO as they were one of the first adopters to use the reticle in a scope not made in CHINA like the Horus ones are. I was there very early and my assessment still stands, it is not a case of a Johnny come lately who is baffled by Bullshit. I have see it first hand for years... more than 10 now.

Lots of cheap scopes hold up, once and while, consider yourself lucky. I bet you like the Springfield Armory Models too, if same guy sold it, you'd be creaming over a Counter Sniper Government overrun.

Guys act like the sniper fights of Fallujah or Ramadi weren't fought with a mil dot reticle. Where would the sniper world be today without the Horus. LOL

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Fallujah, Ramadi, and Nasiriyah were all fought with mildot reticules with straight 10X, and in my opinion alot more guys could have fell with a better scope reticule combo. As for the SA 1911 I have been issued one of those for the past 8 years and if you keep it pristine and greased up they sometimes work out ok. The 1911 has had its day and it should be put down like a lame horse, there are many better pistols out there, which is why most of the guys carry the 19's now. The glocks are much more reliable of a combat pistol in my eyes (Im sure i'll hear about that comment). If your ATRAG was formatted wrong your telling me that they wont replace it?? I don't know if were talking about the same company. Our sniper course started using and teaching this system back in 2006 after the instructors had put the system through the ringer. Anytime a chip went down (SD cards were the problem not the software) they were ALWAYS replaced. What version is the Chip, Ill have it replaced. I know that this is your site, it just seems that there is alot of bashing on Todd, ATRAG and the Horus reticule from alot of guys who have never even shot or used the system in real world or training (not saying your one of those guys). Alot of guys just fear change. I have never seen the system not work if the shooter puts in good data. The Hakko scopes are made in Japan right or made in china with Japanese parts whatever, I never said they were great scopes, but its hard to argue when 4 out of the original five that the school house received are still deploying. The S&B's have much better glass, and thats why we had the HV reticule put in them.

 

[Double-edged]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I don't think that he was talking about pistols when he mentioned Springfield Armory.

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I wasn't at any of those battles, but there really isn't anything wrong with a fixed 10x scope for sharpshooting which given the footage I've seen is just about what was happening. (Yes, I am driving my armchair as a Cold War Warrior).

My point is: never give up too much field of view. Its all jolly well cranking your mag up when you have the time but often as not you just want to find it and be get that well aimed shot off fast. A 10x will take the 308 to as far as it will happily go. Bigger faster calibres you well need more to go further but the bread and butter targets aren't too far away. (You might have all day, even days, waiting for the action to start, which gives you plenty of time to get prepared.... range cards, fire zones, DF's. When it does kick off its all very fast and frantic with minimum time to take the shot. Which is why I want it al KISS easy with one aiming mark and see as much of the big picture as I can).

Its the same problem I have with FFP high variable mag scopes, they are best with a good bit of magnification. When wound down they lose their reticule. How much field of view are you giving up?

All this super long range stuff is all very good if you are positioned at the top of a block of flats (tower block) or on a mountain side but there is far more done at ground level. Anyway just saw red when someone gives the fixed 10x a slagging.

 

[McCrazy]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lots of cheap scopes hold up, once and while, consider yourself lucky. I bet you like the Springfield Armory Models too, if same guy sold it, you'd be creaming over a Counter Sniper Government overrun.
</div></div>

I am not college-educated but even my reading comprehension level makes it pretty clear that LL was talking about the Springfield Armory branded scopes and not the 1911 platform.

Nice to know your opinion about the 1911 though Sheep.

 

[bengates]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muskett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wasn't at any of those battles, but there really isn't anything wrong with a fixed 10x scope for sharpshooting which given the footage I've seen is just about what was happening. (Yes, I am driving my armchair as a Cold War Warrior).

My point is: never give up too much field of view. Its all jolly well cranking your mag up when you have the time but often as not you just want to find it and be fast. A 10x will take the 308 to as far as it will happily go. Bigger faster stuff you well need more to go further but the bread and butter targets aren't too far away. (You might have all day, even days, waiting for the action to start, which gives you plenty of time to get prepared.. range cards, fire zones, DF's. When it does blow off its all very fast and frantic with minimum time to take the shot. Which is why I want it al KISS easy with one aiming mark and see stuff).

Its the same problem I have with FFP high variable mag scopes, they are best with a good bit of magnification. When wound down they lose their reticule. How much field of view are you giving up?

All this super long range stuff is all very good if you are positioned at the top of a block of flats (tower block) or on a mountain side but there is far more done at ground level. Anyway just saw red when someone gives the fixed 10x a slagging. </div></div>

This always drives me nuts. Just because you have a 25x scope doesn't mean that you shoot it at that magnification. You do have the ability to back it off and shoot at 10x if you'd like. In fact, you can even zoom out further for more field of view! Having the ability to observe at a higher magnification is very nice when it's needed.

Also, your point about the reticle on a FFP getting lost at lower magnification is a non-point. You obviously haven't looked through good glass with a good reticle if that's your final analysis.

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I'm a huge fan of variables, and a lot of the time my scopes are backed down to what I need. I was just defending the 10x. I never said you couldn't wind a variable down.

I shot a S&B FFP for five years. Probably was laboring the issue a bit. When wound down to 4x the reticle gets a bit light/thin, but then the higher power variable ones don't go down that far. (I presume thats the reason for the proliferation of piggy back dot sights; yea I'm showing my age). But for bayonet ranges you don't want above 4x.. No scope gives you the best at both ends of the mag scale.

It takes some discipline to keep a scope at the right power, wound down to something useful. Its happened to me when someone else has "had a look" and left it cranked up.

Presently I have about 15 scopes and had, had a go with, or looked through nearly everything out there. I used to do about a hundred days a year on military ranges for 13 years. I've got a good idea what works; I've got a better idea of the level of marksmanship too.

 

[bengates]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muskett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a huge fan of variables, and a lot of the time my scopes are backed down to what I need. I was just defending the 10x. I never said you couldn't wind a variable down.

I shot a S&B FFP for five years. Probably was laboring the issue a bit. When wound down to 4x the reticle gets a bit light/thin, but then the higher power variable ones don't go down that far. (I presume thats the reason for the proliferation of piggy back dot sights; yea I'm showing my age). But for bayonet ranges you don't want above 4x.. No scope gives you the best at both ends of the mag scale.

It takes some discipline to keep a scope at the right power, wound down to something useful. Its happened to me when someone else has "had a look" and left it cranked up.

Presently I have about 15 scopes and had, had a go with, or looked through nearly everything out there. I used to do about a hundred days a year on ranges for 13 years. I've got a good idea what works; I've got a better idea of the level of marksmanship too.

</div></div>

...my dad can beat up your dad . . .

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Ok my bust Im not familiar with the SA branded scopes that he referenced to, so im at a loss there, I just know the 1911s. I know for a fact that in those battles looking through a 10X wasnt the best.

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

This thread is about the Horus reticules.

The discussion points I'm putting forward from my experience are really to defend my position why the Horus doesn't do it for me.

There I was just going to get the popcorn out, and spoilt it all by my 10x jump in!

My old man is dust.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

How about this ,

Go shoot a local, Camp Butner F Class match with your Horus, you can shoot F/TR with a 308 then report back on your placing.

 

[z1_bam]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

For what its worth I have a H39 reticle on my 308 and have grown to love the system for target and hunting but I never feel disadvantaged in the day but there is some at dusk (mountains and bush, so the contrast is usually bad on any east facing slope in the alpine)

The disadvantage is that using the illumination I have found tricky as too much and the reticle washes out quite easily. One feature I do like about the reticle however is that for every second mil on elevation there is a little 'reflector' so I still can see where the mils are and keep the illumination low. It helps alot but its not a perfect solution but for right now I've decided its a fair tradeoff.

EDIT: You really need to just try them out for yourself, so shoot a match with a horus and then one with a mildot or something else. Remember its not like you're tied to one system forever though

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

If you're objective about it, this actually goes against what we know about long range accuracy.

Is it a good mid - range solution, yes it can be, however for long range accuracy the key to solid hits is consistency. This forgoes that, and favors holds at distance, something most world class shooters would choose not to do.

Holds are effective out to your personal danger space, which is generally between 300 and 600 yards. It's from here and "IN" that speed and rapid engagement play a bigger roll. It's also here that most targets are larger than 2MOA, at least in the vertical plane and a minute of man can be as much as 6MOA, so it's not that important to be as precise. Most effective horus shooters quickly learn to move on to other, less cluttered reticles. It;s a good mil learning tool, but after you learn the system, you find less is more.

Distance is supposed to give you time and that time should be used for precision. Couple that with the fact, humans are drawn to the intersection of the reticle, this helps you understand why so many reticles in the past were cross hairs and not grids. (Even though anti aircraft reticles were spider web grids) You want to be able to quarter the target and hold precisely shot after shot. Instead of holding near the lower quarter which cuts your FOV by 3/4 of that of a shooter using the center . This is pretty much common sense, the more you can see the more effective you are. And imagine being on on the back side of the bullets' trajectory and using the least accurate part of the scope, which is the edges. It's a series of compromises that stack up the further you go out, instead of putting the focus on long range targets in the best possible light you are putting it in the worst. In a time where people are talking shaving errors at distance, you are right back to stacking some new ones on.

Can some one be effective with it, sure they can. As with anything we are highly adaptable with enough time, practice and certainly instruction we can make anything work. That is also our nature. But the next question is, if without that instruction, how intuitive do you think it would be if you were just handed the grid versus the crosshair to go out and shoot something ? Not very, it requires a lot of instruction to be effective with it. Not that you can't, certainly you can and people do... but it goes against our very human nature.

It was originally designed as a solution to a problem that didn't really exist. For mid range hunting and has evolved into this long range solution, although, you never see it stand up in this case, only demonstrated in tightly controlled situations by those who practice endlessly with it.

First impressions are generally correct, and the most common first impression is, "It's too busy" ... that should not be ignored and if you have to be sold on it from the get go, is it really that good. Some people can sell you on anything, doesn't mean you need what they are selling.

 

[z1_bam]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're objective about it, this actually goes against what we know about long range accuracy. </div></div>

So the guys at Schmidt & Bender are stupid for offering this or are just after a quick buck with sending military personnel downrange with inferior equipment? I understand you have a hate on for the reticle and company but I'm starting to wonder if my dick is going to fall off if I buy a hdmr with the horus in it

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

No Z1 your dick wont fall off, but It will most likely grow after you have a few range days with the HDMR. Happy Hunting.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

7 paragraphs and that was your take away...

Personally I can careless what you buy, and hope you do invest in a horus, especially when you look at the level of shooters running around today, I think you'll find you'll fall a bit short in the competition department. I'm just prone to not being baffled by bullshit, and call it exactly how I see it. if that offends your decision maybe you need to get out more.

Knock yourselves out and get whatever makes you feel good about your purchase, I know where my money is spent and I have tried them all, in fact when offered them for free I continue to turn them down, some would call that clue.

 

[shootist2004]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepDog0372</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fallujah, Ramadi, and Nasiriyah were all fought with mildot reticules with straight 10X, and in my opinion alot more guys could have fell with a better scope reticule combo. As for the SA 1911 I have been issued one of those for the past 8 years and if you keep it pristine and greased up they sometimes work out ok. The 1911 has had its day and it should be put down like a lame horse, there are many better pistols out there, which is why most of the guys carry the 19's now. The glocks are much more reliable of a combat pistol in my eyes (Im sure i'll hear about that comment). If your ATRAG was formatted wrong your telling me that they wont replace it?? I don't know if were talking about the same company. Our sniper course started using and teaching this system back in 2006 after the instructors had put the system through the ringer. Anytime a chip went down (SD cards were the problem not the software) they were ALWAYS replaced. What version is the Chip, Ill have it replaced. I know that this is your site, it just seems that there is alot of bashing on Todd, ATRAG and the Horus reticule from alot of guys who have never even shot or used the system in real world or training (not saying your one of those guys). Alot of guys just fear change. I have never seen the system not work if the shooter puts in good data. The Hakko scopes are made in Japan right or made in china with Japanese parts whatever, I never said they were great scopes, but its hard to argue when 4 out of the original five that the school house received are still deploying. The S&B's have much better glass, and thats why we had the HV reticule put in them. </div></div>

since you're getting Lowlight's chip replaced can you get my scope back? I sent it back to Horus for repair in 2005.......

 

[cpt.creedmoor]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

since you're getting Lowlight's chip replaced can you get my scope back? I sent it back to Horus for repair in 2005....... </div></div>


damn.....

 

[z1_bam]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">7 paragraphs and that was your take away...
</div></div>

It was not the only takeaway, I do see you point and am not knocking it. But the question was legitimate, if the reticle is so inherently flawed is S&B/USO/leupold et al. really installing the reticle just because Horus has a great marketing team that they're fleecing all the engineers out there? What about the other christmas tree reticles like premier's for instance, where is the split between useful 'busy' and 'useful' on these scopes? as Clark K seemed to do fine with horus

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Horus is well known to threaten lawsuit against other optics companies that attempt hold over reticles, as they have the patent on it. And their patent is extremely broad, so over the years they have used this to limit what you see.

Optics companies like USO will pretty much put any reticle in their scopes and will even make you a custom reticle if you are willing to pay. Others do so because of the efforts of Horus to request it. It's a $400 addition, in fact this week Leupold gave me a price of two of their scopes, with a TMR it was exactly $400 less than the same scope with a Horus. I had both here, so I got a price for both. There is nothing wrong with the concept of the reticle, as a Mid Range Solultion, I have stated that several times... so using it is not an issue. The reticle still works, it's only mils with reference lines. But I will tell you behind close doors some of these companies sing a different song.

Because of the sales efforts, companies are including it as the military is requesting it... the military here also recently requested Mils and MOA in the same scope, which shows where their head is at. Just because someone uses it, doesn't make it right... before your forces (CA) did a class I was working, they were using NF with Mils and MOA, after our demonstration of mil / mil they went out bought S&Bs with P4 reticles in their 5-25x, so the world is full of examples of influence. We demonstrated the effectiveness of using matching systems. They replaced their NF scopes immediately after.

I know Clark, have shot alongside him so I won't comment, However I suggest you should look at the list of competitions. ASC for instance is "self scored" as an example, do your own research before passing judgement or using the information as a point of reference.

I think the line is with Vortex, the EBR seems to balance it well. But I have not found the need to use reference marks... Maybe you missed it, 5 targets from 175 yards to 700 yards, all UKD, ranged by eye, starting from a run, I hit all 5 with six shots in less than minute, with an S&B MSR Reticle. I simply dialed on 1 mil before hand in order to keep the majority in the center of the reticle. This is how to use a reticle effectively. Dial on a BZO and hold in the middle.

I also don't like the Premier XR reticle, I feel the dots are too small the half mil marks are larger and the Christmas tree is a waste of time. but again, my opinion. I had a Premier/ S&B w/ XR reticle and traded it for a Mac Book Pro on this site.. best trade I have made in at least 2 years.

if you want another example, one not well known. I have the NF mil spec Velocity reticle, which when zeroed at 500 yards on the 500 yard line in the reticle is extremely accurate and quick without the clutter. The one I have is used by SEALs, so it combines a mil dot reticle with the velocity reticle for hold overs. When combined with a Mk11 shooting M118LR is extremely effective. As it was designed, the horizontal at center and vertical above are straight mil dots.

The biggest difference is, I am not here to sell you on "A" product or system. I am here to tell you what is effective and works, as I am not beholden to single company. My training encompasses a wide variety of systems, and is not designed to sell you on the merits of a single product. I can speak a variety of languages and make a point of knowing them all. So when you are listening to someone who is paid to sell you on a single product, understand everything they do is, by design, meant to make it look better than everything else.

 

[Jester308]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
if you want another example, one not well known. I have the NF mil spec Velocity reticle, which when zeroed at 500 yards on the 500 yard line in the reticle is extremely accurate and quick without the clutter. The one I have is used by SEALs, so it combines a mil dot reticle with the velocity reticle for hold overs. When combined with a Mk11 shooting M118LR is extremely effective. As it was designed, the horizontal at center and vertical above are straight mil dots.. </div></div>

Frank,

Can I see a pic of this. Google only shows the standard velocity or mildot.

Cheers mate

JJ

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepDog0372</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fallujah, Ramadi, and Nasiriyah were all fought with mildot reticules with straight 10X, and in my opinion alot more guys could have fell with a better scope reticule combo. As for the SA 1911 I have been issued one of those for the past 8 years and if you keep it pristine and greased up they sometimes work out ok. The 1911 has had its day and it should be put down like a lame horse, there are many better pistols out there, which is why most of the guys carry the 19's now. The glocks are much more reliable of a combat pistol in my eyes (Im sure i'll hear about that comment). If your ATRAG was formatted wrong your telling me that they wont replace it?? I don't know if were talking about the same company. Our sniper course started using and teaching this system back in 2006 after the instructors had put the system through the ringer. Anytime a chip went down (SD cards were the problem not the software) they were ALWAYS replaced. What version is the Chip, Ill have it replaced. I know that this is your site, it just seems that there is alot of bashing on Todd, ATRAG and the Horus reticule from alot of guys who have never even shot or used the system in real world or training (not saying your one of those guys). Alot of guys just fear change. I have never seen the system not work if the shooter puts in good data. The Hakko scopes are made in Japan right or made in china with Japanese parts whatever, I never said they were great scopes, but its hard to argue when 4 out of the original five that the school house received are still deploying. The S&B's have much better glass, and thats why we had the HV reticule put in them. </div></div>

since you're getting Lowlight's chip replaced can you get my scope back? I sent it back to Horus for repair in 2005....... </div></div>

Give me your scope serial number

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

In these times of instant gratification; or the quick fix solution then the Horus arguments are very appealing on paper. The system works for sure and with practice very well. But like many things, to get the concept to work in reality there are some built in disadvantages too. Its those disadvantages which we detractors find too much when compared to other systems.

Lowlight, others and I have tried to highlight those disadvantages. If you still think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages then buy into the system. Its your money at the end of the day. All we say is don't be bamboozled by the science. There are plenty of options out there.

Anything that requires you to twitch off the natural hold of a rifle isn't best marksmanship practice in my book. Vertical holdover isn't too difficult to achieve but horizontal for wind can cause problems. When I aim off I realign onto a hold off point and ensure that I get a natural position onto it. Pretty important at the longest ranges where precision and consistency is paramount to making a good shot. You can do it with the Horus but, like with all windage reticule marked aiming systems, its tempting to be lazy and just pull the rifle over without adjusting body position. Heavy rifles with high velocity rounds are more forgiving but don't try it with a Sporter.

As Lowlight pointed out its a shame not to utilize the human's ability to centre circles. Just think how good iron target sights are using concentric circles (no our targets aren't always round, nor do they all have roundel birthmarks). We are good at this circle game and can centre remarkably accurately even under stress. I think the Horus works against this natural ability being always off centre. Other systems do too, but non quite so emphatically.

I remember being sold the Horus system hard and was being told it was the fast track to getting the results we all desire. The reticule and ballistics package would get me instant results. I didn't bite because I didn't believe in it as I know marksmanship, application and practice gets the results. Thre is no such thing as a fast fix; its all to do with getting out there and doing it. I can see the military with limited training resources needing a fast track system for their boys. But hardware is only part of the answer as the British found out when they first invested in the SA80 and optics system. Big equipment investment but without time on the range doing the practical results were poor (The British Army Skills at Arms meeting was stopped to save costs as it wasn't needed now that they had optics). So poor was the shooting even with this new equipment that it was embarrassing. Heads were bashed together and a whole new range package put together. The Small Arms meetings and competitions reinstated. Good equipment, marksmanship training combined with a good range package with plenty of ammunition and what a difference. The British Army could hit things again to the point that their rifles had to be improved even further to keep up (plus some other rifle issues). Last reports is that results are excellent out at the sharp end. However, when services are looking to save money its always range time or equipment fast fixes over good training that look the easy options.

Again I don't believe the Horus is the short cut answer its made out to be. I don't like searching for my aiming mark. There are to my mind better systems, that when given the correct marksmanship coaching and range time, give the desired result over more varied situations. Keep it Kiss simple, don't fight the natural way of things and utilize all that a scope's clarity will give. Uncluttered in my experience is just superior.

 

[z1_bam]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> the military here also recently requested Mils and MOA in the same scope, which shows where their head is at. Just because someone uses it, doesn't make it right... before your forces (CA) did a class I was working, they were using NF with Mils and MOA, after our demonstration of mil / mil they went out bought S&Bs with P4 reticles in their 5-25x, so the world is full of examples of influence.

I think the line is with Vortex, the EBR seems to balance it well. But I have not found the need to use reference marks...
</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muskett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lowlight, others and I have tried to highlight those disadvantages. If you still think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages then buy into the system. Its your money at the end of the day. All we say is don't be bamboozled by the science. There are plenty of options out there.</div></div>

Thanks for the continued responses on <span style="font-style: italic">why</span> you guys don't like holdovers in general (I did miss the part on the MSR reticle, although I'm not sure my eye is that calibrated). I think I will be doing some direct back to back testing between my mildot and horus before pulling the trigger on the hdmr though

Regardless to the reticle though I would have hoped that the military of all places would have been guided in purchasing more by them knowing what works than anything to do with marketing

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Well being in the Military, being a sniper, having been on five combat deployments as a sniper with the horus on three of them, I don't think that someone can persuade me on what works, I know what works by having shot more cases of ammo than most people will ever see. Look at the top military units in the military there running Horus or fighting to get it, not because of free shit, or someone with 10 dollar words, but because the system works. Marketing you guys kill me.

 

[bengates]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepDog0372</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well being in the Military, being a sniper, having been on five combat deployments as a sniper with the horus on three of them, I don't think that someone can persuade me on what works, I know what works by having shot more cases of ammo than most people will ever see. Look at the top military units in the military there running Horus or fighting to get it, not because of free shit, or someone with 10 dollar words, but because the system works. Marketing you guys kill me. </div></div>

Bull. The people in the military who make desicions are just that - people! They can be won over with a song and a dance just like any other people. Don't for a second think that they're the all knowing definitive answer on what works. They are the government for crying out loud!! The people who make military spending desicions are bureaucrats!! You know, the same ones who made us by those crappy swirly light bulbs that suck, because they're supposed to be better, but cost 6 times as much and only last twice as long.

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SheepDog0372</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well being in the Military, being a sniper, having been on five combat deployments as a sniper with the horus on three of them, I don't think that someone can persuade me on what works, I know what works by having shot more cases of ammo than most people will ever see. Look at the top military units in the military there running Horus or fighting to get it, not because of free shit, or someone with 10 dollar words, but because the system works. Marketing you guys kill me. </div></div>

Bull. The people in the military who make desicions are just that - people! They can be won over with a song and a dance just like any other people. Don't for a second think that they're the all knowing definitive answer on what works. They are the government for crying out loud!! The people who make military spending desicions are bureaucrats!! You know, the same ones who made us by those crappy swirly light bulbs that suck, because they're supposed to be better, but cost 6 times as much and only last twice as long.
</div></div>

I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and shit out a smarter statement than that, I'd like to see things from your point of view, but I can't get my head that far up my ass. Im not talking about the general mass of conventional troops Im talking about a small group of guys who have some control of the equipment that they use. Last note I hope all of you get crabs.

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

"Regardless to the reticle though I would have hoped that the military of all places would have been guided in purchasing more by them knowing what works than anything to do with marketing"

You would think so, but its not always the case. The purchasers are rarely the end users (There are exceptions but its rare). Even when good input is given from the bottom up its often ignored and yes the hype wins through. Happens all the time.

Sheep Dog 0372; seems to me you are very familiar and happy with the horus system. You have done a lot of time with it. If it works for you then thats great. Our observations differ; so what?
Here is a question for you: how would you improve it?

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I have yet to shoot the new Tremor reticule, but as for the ones that I have worked with the H25 had to big of a center cross hair on some of the earlier versions and the inch scale I found to be useless, the H27 run out of mils in high winds but a very good reticule for the most applications and could be easly worked around, and the H37 had a shit ton of Mils and I prefer it least of any, but still an effective system. I will have to get back to you on how to improve the system. I know that Horus doesn't use the best glass to put the reticule on when installing them in some high end scopes and can ruin some of the clarity. My point is that MOST of the guys bashing the system don't shoot PEOPLE for a living, If I was shooting bulls-eyes in F-class matches a high power non gridded system would most likely be better, but I have shot the horus in a match and placed second, I don't find it that unnatural to hold off with the subtended mil reticule, because I know what my hold is and that is what is on the target.

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Think the crab reply goes:
"Had them; got them from your wife."
"Its alright though, I don't have them now. I gave them all to your daughter".

Keep it fun.

Another one:
Take crabs as crossers.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

SD,

Clearly you can't differentiate between someone with your best interest in mind and someone's who's soul purpose is to sell you on a single product.

Don't underestimate how far a free OBR will get you, or even the highly discounted ones, as we all know the going rate is about $1500 for people in the right position.

If you unwilling to acknowledge the purpose is to "sell" you on the benefits, with courses and drills designed to highlight a single product, to point of referring to a rezeroed Mil Dot as a "poor man's horus", how else can your eyes be open to the realities, it's a solution to a problem that never existed. In fact it creates just as many new problems as it is purported to resolve.

if I was to focus this board towards a single purpose, or better yet, single product, and you knew I was being paid by that company to do so, or say so, you would look at everything said in a completely different light ? Now, if I had no military background, never enlisted, never went to sniper school and did the same thing, was paid to sell you on a product that I stated with everything I did as being the best the solution, would you follow that line of thinking or would you call me a shill ? Especially if I was walking into your house to sell you on the product with drills that highlight the benefits, wouldn't you ask questions ?

For everyone sold on the concept there are just as many who aren't and even more who don't; think the whole process doesn't pass the sniff test. If you're sold on concept, great, run with it, but understand there is more than one way to skin a cat, and just because you can get to C, from point A, doesn't mean you can't get there from B.

Sure the reticle works, it has too, it;s simply mils, and we all know mils work. But there are still best practices and there are short cuts that can get you by. There is a difference between a person paid to sell you on a single solution, versus a person who is teaching universal best practices. And if you think favors are not being exchanged I have a bridge to sell you in NYC.

 

[elkhuntinguide]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jester308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
if you want another example, one not well known. I have the NF mil spec Velocity reticle, which when zeroed at 500 yards on the 500 yard line in the reticle is extremely accurate and quick without the clutter. The one I have is used by SEALs, so it combines a mil dot reticle with the velocity reticle for hold overs. When combined with a Mk11 shooting M118LR is extremely effective. As it was designed, the horizontal at center and vertical above are straight mil dots.. </div></div>

Frank,

Can I see a pic of this. Google only shows the standard velocity or mildot.

Cheers mate

JJ </div></div>

I believe this is the reticle Frank was describing...

 

[SheepDog0372]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

LL, This is the last post im going to make on the topic as I can see that this is going no where. your last comment states:

"Sure the reticle works, it has too, it;s simply mils, and we all know mils work. But there are still best practices and there are short cuts that can get you by. There is a difference between a person paid to sell you on a single solution, versus a person who is teaching universal best practices. And if you think favors are not being exchanged I have a bridge to sell you in NYC."

I can only assume that your are speaking of Todd, having attended many of his courses and many courses that we had him guest instruct, he never said or taught that you cant do this without a Horus reticule, PDA, ect... Some courses were shot only with the gen II mildot, and Horus reticules were not even brought out. All the drills and COF that we shot can be shot with any system, we found that its just faster and more accurate to do it with the HV Reticule. As I and now you have stated the Horus is just subtended mil-radian, So as far as the lawsuits I dont know or care about them, because there are a cunt load of christmas tree style, BDC, and MOA hold over reticules out there.

 

[benchduck]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Sheepdog0372 is at the top of the SF community he doesnt get out much I've told him several times arguing on the forums is like wrestling with a hog. You both get dirty, and the hog likes it.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

No argument here, just a difference in opinion.

He drank the kool-aid and likes it, doesn't make it ugly or an argument.

 

[SLVGW360]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I don't understand the emotional investment in these things. Any given reticle is just a tool. One will prefer tool A while another prefers tool B. They both work under the same principles. To expound upon the virtues one specific system vs. the others seems pointless and causes one to wonder...why?

Is the HORUS the be all and end all? Probably not. I would imagine that such a creature doesn't exist...yet. It may never exist. If a particular system works for you, use it. More deer and elk have probably fallen to a 4x Weaver than any of the scopes or reticles discussed here. Does that make it the best? Probably not. If it is, I sure wasted a bunch of money.

 

[Jester308]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkhuntinguide</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jester308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
if you want another example, one not well known. I have the NF mil spec Velocity reticle, which when zeroed at 500 yards on the 500 yard line in the reticle is extremely accurate and quick without the clutter. The one I have is used by SEALs, so it combines a mil dot reticle with the velocity reticle for hold overs. When combined with a Mk11 shooting M118LR is extremely effective. As it was designed, the horizontal at center and vertical above are straight mil dots.. </div></div>

Frank,

Can I see a pic of this. Google only shows the standard velocity or mildot.

Cheers mate

JJ </div></div>

I believe this is the reticle Frank was describing...

</div></div>


Hey mate, thanks for that, appreciate it.

Cheers,

JJ