Rifle Scopes Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

[jrgfox]

Hello all, Got a question for those that have actually used the Horus H58 or similar horus reticle. Im somewhat sold on this reticle for long distance shooting as it has clear advantages for quick changes to holdovers and hold-offs. Im planning on buying a new Schmidt to put on top of a AX308. My concern with this reticle is if it is hard to see bullet impact/splash when shooting distant targets if it falls within the grid.

Basically i want to know if your able to easily spot your own shots if you don't have a spotter, or if you easily lose the impact point within the grid.

Im debating between the H58 and the P4 Fine. Any other opinions or input on these reticles is welcome.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

My choices in reticles for a S&B 5-25 would be the P4F or H2CMR. You don't have the issues of the reticle potentially blocking splash and you can still be very accurate in elevation and windage holds. Me personally have never seen the need for a Horus reticle because IMO a shooter that is familiar with standard mil-based reticles can drive one just as well when it comes to hold overs. Plus you can save a good bit of cash not going with a Horus which can towards other things. Those are my two cents. Hope it helps.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I agree with Trigger Monkey. Been using the H2CMR and really like it a lot. I also have 2 scope with P4F reticles and like it as well.

 

[25MAN]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Never had an issue seeing splash using the H58 in both the schmidt or HDMR, in fact the reticle is designed for when you do see splash in use that for impact for a quick second shot which you can not do with the P4...its an awesome recticle and in stressful situations like timed events it helps to have the mils numbered in the reticle.

the other reticles are GREAT but there are advantages to the Horus. But they are pricey which is the only downside.

 

[bengates]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I third the thought. I've never understood holding a large amount of windage and elevation at the same time. I would rather dial in my elevation and hold the wind.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the reticle is designed for when you do see splash in use that for impact for a quick second shot which you can not do with the P4...</div></div>

You can't? News to me. I better stop doing it now that I know that.

 

[25MAN]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 25MAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the reticle is designed for when you do see splash in use that for impact for a quick second shot which you can not do with the P4...</div></div>

You can't? News to me. I better stop doing it now that I know that.

</div></div>

haha...well its a WHOLE lot easier using a Horus in IMO...but it a rookie against a pro's opinion so i'll shut up. Listen to Rob way before me...haha

But I still do like the Horus alot

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Rob beat me to it...lol.

 

[jerseymike]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

have been using the h58 since its been out in the HDMR and havent had any issues with the reticle obscuring bullet impacts.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

if you make a video shooting down on a place that has been under drought conditions for more than a year then it works perfect. As soon as you move to a place where they have moisture, or trees, or thick brush, really anything close to resembling a flat countryside that has grass, especially fields with grass grown over manicured lawn length, then the grid is gonna be of no use to you.

I have yet to see any records set holding, and when novices try to hold the grid under pressure the usual reaction is, " I held the wrong line"... especially when on a clock.

Nothing wrong with holding, but how far down the reticle do you want to hold, and if you're at the bottom of the reticle on the edge of the scope's FOV how much can you really see... say your target moves, "in" instead of out, now you have compromised your position again.

NPA should be set on the target, moving to hold is a compromise to some degree, and holding out, on a far target is not when I want to compromise my NPA.

 

[Rob01]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I was only messing with you 25Man. I have never been a fan of the Horus reticule but I know some like them. Your experiences with it are valid and should be heard by the op.

 

[Iloveguns]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I third the thought. I've never understood holding a large amount of windage and elevation at the same time. I would rather dial in my elevation and hold the wind. </div></div>

Thats great until you have multiple targets to engage in a short time span. Most big matches have hold over stages. Way faster to hold over then trying to dial for every target.

 

[25MAN]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was only messing with you 25Man. I have never been a fan of the Horus reticule but I know some like them. Your experiences with it are valid and should be heard by the op. </div></div>

I know you were and I don't mind at all

keeps it fun...but I really do not see the disadvantage of the Horus, I undwerstand the grid may not hold a major advantage in all scenarios but I still feel it helpful and not hard to use...I have shot both the P4F and Horus H58 and for me i feel the H58 in stressful situations helps me by being able to identify the mils by the numbers...over time I am sure it will not matter as much but for me personally it helps now. I shot ASC along side of a friend shooting the H58 and he loved what the reticle offered him at that event I shot the P4F and also liked it alot...like everything else in this sport comes down to what you are comfortable with IMO and some guys (like you said) really like it and others not a big fan since it does clutter the scope in high power...put I usually shoot between 12-16 power anyway so its not that bad when using a FFP scope since it shrinks the reticle down...so again does it host a big advantage...i agree no, but is there any disadvantage to it...that I have not expierenced. I guess its what I was trying to say in the begining but it was late I was too lazy to type haha

 

[bengates]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iloveguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I third the thought. I've never understood holding a large amount of windage and elevation at the same time. I would rather dial in my elevation and hold the wind. </div></div>

Thats great until you have multiple targets to engage in a short time span. Most big matches have hold over stages. Way faster to hold over then trying to dial for every target.</div></div>

Didn't I hear that the Horus retical was banned from many comps with holdover stages? I'm not sure, I just heard that.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iloveguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I third the thought. I've never understood holding a large amount of windage and elevation at the same time. I would rather dial in my elevation and hold the wind. </div></div>

Thats great until you have multiple targets to engage in a short time span. Most big matches have hold over stages. Way faster to hold over then trying to dial for every target.</div></div>

Ignorance is bliss,

Why can't you hold with a regular reticle and be success it is done every single competition.

Funny you never see the winners of the big competitions coming on to say, I won with a Horus. Most experienced shooters opt for less not more.

You can be infinitely successful holding with a standard mil dot reticle. It's done every week.

 

[Iloveguns]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iloveguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I third the thought. I've never understood holding a large amount of windage and elevation at the same time. I would rather dial in my elevation and hold the wind. </div></div>

Thats great until you have multiple targets to engage in a short time span. Most big matches have hold over stages. Way faster to hold over then trying to dial for every target.</div></div>


Didn't I hear that the Horus retical was banned from many comps with holdover stages? I'm not sure, I just heard that. </div></div>

?? I highly doubt that! I dont get how the Horus would give you a leg up in a comp. If you know how to properly use your reticle The Horus does not really have a crazy advantage unless shooting in high wind situations. But even then I would rather go with a different Reticle.

 

[Iloveguns]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">



Ignorance is bliss,

Why can't you hold with a regular reticle and be success it is done every single competition.

Funny you never see the winners of the big competitions coming on to say, I won with a Horus. Most experienced shooters opt for less not more.

You can be infinitely successful holding with a standard mil dot reticle. It's done every week. </div></div>


That is what Im saying. Might not have been clear in that post. I am not a Horus fan. Running an S&B with the H2CMR.

 

[bengates]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iloveguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iloveguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: UncleBenji</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I third the thought. I've never understood holding a large amount of windage and elevation at the same time. I would rather dial in my elevation and hold the wind. </div></div>

Thats great until you have multiple targets to engage in a short time span. Most big matches have hold over stages. Way faster to hold over then trying to dial for every target.</div></div>


Didn't I hear that the Horus retical was banned from many comps with holdover stages? I'm not sure, I just heard that. </div></div>

?? I highly doubt that! I dont get how the Horus would give you a leg up in a comp. If you know how to properly use your reticle The Horus does not really have a crazy advantage unless shooting in high wind situations. But even then I would rather go with a different Reticle.</div></div>

I can't tell, are you for or against the Horus? It sounded at first like you thought it was great because of holdover comps, but then it sounds like you are saying that it doesn't give you any advantage. Perhaps you can clarify.

 

[Iloveguns]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I am NOT a fan of the Horus!! I am a fan of hold overs instead of dialing!! Internets can be a hard place to clarify! Sorry for the confusion!

 

[25MAN]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Lowlight,

This is simply a question to help educate a new shooter in the comp world.

not talking about a specific reticle because there are a lot out there that etch the numbers into the glass these days...do you like or dislike this? do you feel there is an advantage to that?

Thanks...slightly off topic but helpful.

 

[bengates]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iloveguns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am NOT a fan of the Horus!! I am a fan of hold overs instead of dialing!! Internets can be a hard place to clarify! Sorry for the confusion!</div></div>

Ah ha! No problem! I fully agree with you - I'm not a fan of the Horus either.

 

[poison123]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Horus Reticles ruin good glass in my opinion. Had the Henny with the H37 in it......ya it got sold pretty quickly after the first real comp I used it at.

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I hate clutter in my sight picture; mildot is about as much as I can cope with. I need to see splash clearly to take that mental picture of it. Get a sharp snap picture and I have something to work with. Why the heck do I want to put a net obscuring the picture? As said add some mist and rain then what a mess.

You really need to look deep into the splash to know where the bullet really struck. Clear best glass helps big time so why mess it up?

Not for me. Fair weather shooters can keep it.

 

[25MAN]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muskett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not for me. Fair weather shooters can keep it.</div></div>

you mean like these fair weather guys? haha

"Winners Use Horus at the 2010 International Sniper Competition"

http://horusvision.wordpress.com/2010/11...er-competition/

ASC winner uses Horus:
Allegheny Sniper Challenger Takes First Place Using The Horus Reticle

Doing some internet research and there a quiet a few top shooter and tournments being won using Horus retciles. so not everyone has to love them, but clearly they do work for those who do like them

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I'm sure those who won on the day were shooting so well they probably could have done it with nearly anything (bar the broken scope problem).

Nice weather to shoot a comp. I used to shoot such comps in the summer too; we all looked tanned and fit after a long shooting concentration to boot. By the end of several weeks on the range when everything came together it was quite remarkable what you could pull off shot wise. Thousands of rounds later it was a good feeling.

Anyway, I still don't like cluttered reticules. I know why they are made but doesn't mean I have to like them.

I was in Scotland the other month and you needed windscreen wipers on you eyeballs let alone on your scope. My Zeiss 60 ret on 10x worked; anything more complicated would have been a wash out.

Like many of these things you shoot to the comp rules. Take your advantages where you can. Doesn't mean those advantages travel well. Horses for courses really.

 

[jerseymike]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

To each his own. If you dont like it dont buy it. As for me ive shot it all conditions dry rain sand mud whatever, the h58 works fine for me.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Yup, never bad weather at ASC...

 

[Trigger Monkey]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Very little wind too....

 

[ck50bmg]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I have shot HORUS VISION scopes for years and for me thats all I shoot in comps. I may be the person that you were talking about as I won ASC 3 times, Mammoth 1st, 2nd and 4th in the past year and the Practical Marksman Sniper Challange 1st, 3rd and 3rd in the last 3 matches with a HORUS reticle. Most all of my shooting buddys have converted to shooting Horus reticles in there S&B,Bushnell HDMR's, USO's and Horus scopes. I have seen times at ASC that I needed 18 mils of holdover and 8 mils of wind and without the Horus reticle I couldn't have hit the target at 1300yds that Rob and I hit in the 1st 308 match.

I have shoot the Horus out to 2444yds on IPSC man targets in changing wind and a moving Goat at 2222yds so there is nothing that works better for me for long range. Ask the guys at the SOTIC Sniper School in FT BRAGG what they are shooting on there rifles in the school house and on there own guns and that may tell you a little who likes HORUS reticles.

Just my 2 cents as this everyone to there likes and I likes HORUS.

HORUS shooter forever,
Clark K
TEAM BUSHNELL TACTICAL
TEAM JPE
TEAM HORUS VISION

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

clark K, in anyones reckoning that is quite outstanding shooting. To achieve such results you had to be completely confident and familiar in your equipment. The results shows that your choice works.

Sometime ago for quite a few years I competed in Service rifle comps here at Bisley and in Little Rock Arkansas. Range wasn't as far, but we were limited to service issue rifles, issued optics and ammunition. The comp practices did differ from country to country. Target sizes and exposure times. All good competitive stuff.

A couple of questions:
What % of your the comps are done in poor light, or adverse conditions?
What were the exposure times allowed? Counted in seconds or minutes; 3 seconds, 5 seconds or longer?
I know my Fig 11's, 12's and 12c's but can you give me an idea of your targetry sizing. I should think they are similar sizing.

I'm not trying to knock your achievements as they speak for themselves, but just wanted to get a better idea of why you chose the equipment you did. Maybe the Horus for these comps does give an advantage. My shooting history differs to yours and the Horus reticles just goes against the grain. I'm not the only one but then we all have different experiences, levels of expertise, and work in different environments.

I like a completely clear image with just a good aiming mark. The benchrest boys seem to go for the same but go even finer with their massive magnification. I always bring up what the Benchrest boys can achieve because they hold the accuracy records. Whatever the shoot is those that bring in the silver have made the best calls on the day... better than the hundreds of other competitors... they must be doing something right.

Lastly, what you can achieve using optics wise on a bright clear day and what you can use when the weather is horrendous are worlds apart. One reason European optics remain at the top of the tree; its what the glass does in poor condition that makes them the best. But then again if the conditions are so bad you can't make a shot at 1000m plus anyway because you can't see the target! Mist and moisture is the limiting factor over here. I've often had to wait for the morning mist to burn off.

Just looked up the footage of the annual comps. Several rifles systems used, bolt and self loading. Local knowledge of ranges can help, it all depends on who sets the practices up. With known target sizes a POA card is good to about 600m then clicking in has to be done. Wind has its own call but again out to 600m so long as its light wind can be kept within the target. Beyond that more science is needed.
Looks a good shoot.

 

[steve123]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clark k</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot HORUS VISION scopes for years and for me thats all I shoot in comps. I may be the person that you were talking about as I won ASC 3 times, Mammoth 1st, 2nd and 4th in the past year and the Practical Marksman Sniper Challange 1st, 3rd and 3rd in the last 3 matches with a HORUS reticle. Most all of my shooting buddys have converted to shooting Horus reticles in there S&B,Bushnell HDMR's, USO's and Horus scopes. I have seen times at ASC that I needed 18 mils of holdover and 8 mils of wind and without the Horus reticle I couldn't have hit the target at 1300yds that Rob and I hit in the 1st 308 match.

I have shoot the Horus out to 2444yds on IPSC man targets in changing wind and a moving Goat at 2222yds so there is nothing that works better for me for long range. Ask the guys at the SOTIC Sniper School in FT BRAGG what they are shooting on there rifles in the school house and on there own guns and that may tell you a little who likes HORUS reticles.

Just my 2 cents as this everyone to there likes and I likes HORUS.

HORUS shooter forever,
Clark K
TEAM BUSHNELL TACTICAL
TEAM JPE
TEAM HORUS VISION </div></div>

Great shooting Clark!

I bought a couple Horus 8-26 Predators from you years ago. Still got em. My primary scopes now are the HDMR's with H-59's.

I've been getting some high finishes and wins myself this last year using the H-58 and H-59 with holdovers/holdoffs. In fact I won the 2011 AZPRC championship doing so. I dial when I feel it suites me better like when shooting at a fixed distance for a long period of time but otherwise I hold.

To the OP...The only problem I have ever had with the Horus system and holdovers/offs is not paying attention to which line I'm supposed to be on, "mistake" but then again I've also forgot to dial my dope too before, "mistake". I can't remember ever having not seen a impact because of the reticle or feeling like I was at a disadvantage because of the reticle either. If they can be seen at all I see them fine. In fact more often than not I am able to see exactly where I miss and can correct accordingly in the grid to make the next shot a hit. I was spotting today at the AZPRC with a Pentax PF100 spotting scope, (no reticle in it) to obscure a miss. If a shot missed the steel and went into a Juniper bush I could not tell where the shot went unless it knocked a branch off. That's just how it is if there's no dust signature no matter what reticle one uses.

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Don't we all love ranges with nice sandy backstops!

Exposure times is my real question. I have no doubt the system works in good light. I can also see the benefit for making fine adjustments at long range. I can also see it being an advantage for scope ranging; though I think the practice is redundant with modern lasers (given time, reconnaissance, a map and google earth should get you to 100m). But I do struggle with the whole concept under multiple target and ranges within limited exposure times because it does have such a busy reticule. Yep, whatever system we all make mistakes.

I do think aiming off/hold over adjustments can be remarkably accurate to about 600m. Knowing your drop and average wind gives good POA to get the hit. After that its not fine enough without more reticule aid which I presume the Horus gives. But then for the longer shots you should be given the time to click. At closer ranges if the POA hold overs are on the target then it can be very fast.
One point of importance is always if hits are required or much smaller scoring areas are needed. Big difference in what is needed from the shooter and how you tackle them. Many modern target have nice aiming marks to use all over them so it makes sense to be familiar with the print pattern and size. However, if you have to hit tiny targets then clicks every time (Lowlights preferred choice??).

I definitely used to have a markedly off POI when sitting doing rapid and used a specific POA to compensate.

I'm a bit of a KISS kind old school shot. I do wonder if the courses of fire might be being made biased to the reticle rather than the marksmanship with all the technology now available to the average shooter. If you have time to use the Horus reticule for ranging, then there is no reason a spotter shouldn't be able to use a rangefinder or have made a range card from othe aids. I don't shoot this match nor have I ever shot it so I do realize I am taking liberties with my questioning. But I find it fascinating and well worth the discussion. I think the Horus is robust enough to be questioned.

What I do know is some of the tricks I used in the comp circuit don't travel well.

 

[totenkopf]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I think the issue here is TIME. If you're in a situation that requires speed than the Horus may be "your" tool of choice. Ranging with a reticle is still the same matter of practice whether using Horus or basic mildots. If I was shooting a target competition I might use a Horus (usually a time factor is involved). There are a lot of variables involved for sure. I've used a lot of reticle patterns and even now I'm not convinced there is an all-encompassing example for every use. Maybe experience is the answer for you…try some different examples and see what fits your requirement. I use different reticles for different requirements i.e., benchrest vs hunting Elk at 1500meters.

 

[totenkopf]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clark k</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot HORUS VISION scopes for years and for me thats all I shoot in comps. I may be the person that you were talking about as I won ASC 3 times, Mammoth 1st, 2nd and 4th in the past year and the Practical Marksman Sniper Challange 1st, 3rd and 3rd in the last 3 matches with a HORUS reticle. Most all of my shooting buddys have converted to shooting Horus reticles in there S&B,Bushnell HDMR's, USO's and Horus scopes. I have seen times at ASC that I needed 18 mils of holdover and 8 mils of wind and without the Horus reticle I couldn't have hit the target at 1300yds that Rob and I hit in the 1st 308 match.



I have shoot the Horus out to 2444yds on IPSC man targets in changing wind and a moving Goat at 2222yds so there is nothing that works better for me for long range. Ask the guys at the SOTIC Sniper School in FT BRAGG what they are shooting on there rifles in the school house and on there own guns and that may tell you a little who likes HORUS reticles.

Just my 2 cents as this everyone to there likes and I likes HORUS.

HORUS shooter forever,
Clark K
TEAM BUSHNELL TACTICAL
TEAM JPE
TEAM HORUS VISION </div></div>

I couldnt agree more. I have found the same results in my small world...if I had the use of this reticle pattern when in the SEALs...welllllll, you know.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

I shot K&M this past weekend and I am gonna read the COF Description from the match book:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Shoot up to 10 rounds at 5 auto reset targets. Shooters will start at the base of the tower and on command run to the top and establish a prone firing position. Shooters are not authorized to adjust the scopes elevation turret once the event begins. Targets must be detected and then ranged estimated by by eye sight only. Targets must be engaged & hit from closest to furthest, do not move on until the target is hit. Targets will not be closer than 175 yards and will not be further than 700 yards. Do not load magazine until in your firing position.

Target sizes range from 1/2, 3/4 to full size IPSC

You will have 1 minute and 45 seconds </div></div>

So with my 260 using an S&B 5-25x and MSR Reticle, I ran the 10 yards to the tower, then up 2 sets of stairs to the firing position. I hit all 5 targets using only 6 shots in 54 seconds... it was the fastest time.

Where is the benefit of the grid, and frankly the way things were tucked in the woods the Horus would have been a bit busy to have seen misses not in front of the target properly, so the heavy H58 reticle would have blocked most misses not splashing clearly in the mud.

None of the top shooters this weekend used a horus i know of ? The Bushnell scopes I saw all had GAP G2 reticles.

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Its been bugging me why I dismissed the Horus type reticles when I first discovered them a good few years ago. I think I've nailed it now.

Yes they might well work given a stable firing platform for the rifle in good light. A heavier rifle from a stable prone position. Where they don't work for me is for other less stable positions where my concentration is centered on getting a stable sight picture. With so much movement going on I can't see how I could utilize the small calibrations that this system relies on. For this kind of shooting, for me anyway, I need a definite point, aiming mark, to work with. A H2CMR is about as much clutter that I could manage and only because there would be no time to click having multiple ranges to deal with in a limited time scale.

Given time and a laser then my preferred choice has always been a fine cross or target dot in 2FF anytime. Made to have holdover points then some reference ladder marks and 1FF, but then only if on a manageable rifle for all positions shooting.

Stating the obvious its a two rifle match if you have to cover all scenarios: dedicated assault rifle and dedicated sniper rifle. Probably why the interest in the self loading sharp shooter configuration type rifles is on the rise. The British Army has fairly recently bough into the concept with a sharp shooters rifle in 7.62 and upped their Sniper systems range with the AI's in .338.
Different roles. Again my prference would be 2FF for sharpshooting with a ladder system and 1FF for the latter to get the highest precision.

But then what do I know?

 

[gits]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

This is a debate that will continue to go on whether or not Horus has advantages over the standard mil dot or other reticles. Ultimately it is the shooter behind the reticle that makes all the shots. Older more experienced guys like Lowlight who have been shooting for a while don't need it or see any advantages because they are shooting at such a high level they don't require a Horus reticle or anything fancy. The truth of the matter is LR Precision shooting in the military circle are switching over to Horus and teaching Horus in their courses in addition to the basics. Hell a good 85% + of the teams at the USASOC Comp ran Horus. If there wasn't any sort of advantage to Horus then it wouldn't have been selected and sent downrange on the M2010s. In the end it's all shooter preference debating back and forth is pointless.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gits</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a debate that will continue to go on whether or not Horus has advantages over the standard mil dot or other reticles. Ultimately it is the shooter behind the reticle that makes all the shots. Older more experienced guys like Lowlight who have been shooting for a while don't need it or see any advantages because they are shooting at such a high level they don't require a Horus reticle or anything fancy. The truth of the matter is LR Precision shooting in the military circle are switching over to Horus and teaching Horus in their courses in addition to the basics. Hell a good 85% + of the teams at the USASOC Comp ran Horus. If there wasn't any sort of advantage to Horus then it wouldn't have been selected and sent downrange on the M2010s. In the end it's all shooter preference debating back and forth is pointless. </div></div>

Lots of corruption when it comes to these choices, you have to look at the money spent and the time put in "selling" these guys on the system.

the lobbying effort is huge, and it is not an organic change, but a calculated sale to a group known to influence decisions.

if people knew what was being done to sell these guys I would bet opinions would change, fast. And you'd stop quoting who is using them, because the "why they are using it" is not so cut and dry.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Can anyone give me any insight on the tremor2 reticle..I was looking through one on a 5-25 PSR scope last week and it seemed more of a DTUBB style reticle than a standard Horus. I cant seem to find much info on it and I know Its offered in the HDMR now. In the limited time I had behind it it seemd to make sense for a quick DMR style reticle.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
if people knew what was being done to sell these guys I would bet opinions would change, fast. And you're stop quoting who is using them, because the "why they are using it" is not so cut and dry. </div></div>

The more I learn, the more I agree.

 

[Muskett]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

It was a good time ago when I was last at The Shot Show and Horus was newish; but even then it was being pushed hard as the answer to all things. The whole package is very appealing and arguments strong, but....

Anyone have a video of a Horus under adverse conditions? Can only find demonstrations with nice white steels. All smoke and mist to me; or am I losing it?

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharfshutze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone give me any insight on the tremor2 reticle..I was looking through one on a 5-25 PSR scope last week and it seemed more of a DTUBB style reticle than a standard Horus. I cant seem to find much info on it and I know Its offered in the HDMR now. In the limited time I had behind it it seemd to make sense for a quick DMR style reticle.
</div></div>

I am trying to wrap my head around it and either I am just not "getting it" or it's a huge mess.

Basically the "dots" are wind calls and the speed varies depending on the load you are shooting. You have to go on the Horus site and plug in your load and it gives you the values for the dots.

 

[XTR]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sharfshutze</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone give me any insight on the tremor2 reticle..I was looking through one on a 5-25 PSR scope last week and it seemed more of a DTUBB style reticle than a standard Horus. I cant seem to find much info on it and I know Its offered in the HDMR now. In the limited time I had behind it it seemd to make sense for a quick DMR style reticle.
</div></div>

There is a thread here on it. Someone took the initiate to contact Horus I think and and get details. It us definitely not an intuitive reticle.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
if people knew what was being done to sell these guys I would bet opinions would change, fast. And you're stop quoting who is using them, because the "why they are using it" is not so cut and dry. </div></div>

You mean things like calling everything else a "poor man's" version of theirs?

 

[sosicmcise]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

You won't easily find training materials for the Tremor 1 or 2 reticles. It's intentional.

 

[Woj8541]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Pretty unreal that a company would market and sell a product which is so complicated that it requires a manual that doesn't exist...

Awesome.

 

[gits]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gits</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a debate that will continue to go on whether or not Horus has advantages over the standard mil dot or other reticles. Ultimately it is the shooter behind the reticle that makes all the shots. Older more experienced guys like Lowlight who have been shooting for a while don't need it or see any advantages because they are shooting at such a high level they don't require a Horus reticle or anything fancy. The truth of the matter is LR Precision shooting in the military circle are switching over to Horus and teaching Horus in their courses in addition to the basics. Hell a good 85% + of the teams at the USASOC Comp ran Horus. If there wasn't any sort of advantage to Horus then it wouldn't have been selected and sent downrange on the M2010s. In the end it's all shooter preference debating back and forth is pointless. </div></div>

Lots of corruption when it comes to these choices, you have to look at the money spent and the time put in "selling" these guys on the system.

the lobbying effort is huge, and it is not an organic change, but a calculated sale to a group known to influence decisions.

if people knew what was being done to sell these guys I would bet opinions would change, fast. And you'd stop quoting who is using them, because the "why they are using it" is not so cut and dry. </div></div>

Unfortunately I just happen to be within one of the communities I am quoting, SOF is pretty cut and dry for most of us who converted over. Guys in the community who actually keep up in precision shooting and sniper craft, don't need to be sold, we decide whether or not if it works. If it doesn't then it gets pushed aside. We've been setting the standard on equipment for the military. If Horus wasn't super great to begin with then we wouldn't be coming in numbers to adopt it. I competed at the competition this year and between competitors the why we were using it was pretty cut and dry for us. No one was paid to use a product they didn't want to compete with. But for most of us who competed we all bought our scopes outside of the military.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

So what you are saying is, Horus hasn't been camped out at Range 37, there hasn't been a bunch of discounted or free products floating around to key people. There hasn't been a bunch of personal attention given to people in decision making positions... like week+ personal instruction prior to the military competitions highlighting the product. Guaranteeing a positive finish for those using the reticle.

The Horus has been in and out of the military with mixed reviews since the early 2000s, it's just now, that their lobbying effort has been solidified that it is suddenly, "pretty great". when in year past it was clearly dismissed as, "too busy" among other complaints, that have been well discussed.

The civilian community by and large which has a better track record for setting standards, to include the competition world has largely dismissed it, labeling it less than effective. From the notoriously poor customer service to the named / labeled products lack of reliability. The change all happened recently when key personal in the military were "sold" on the concept. That can all be traced back to the lobbying done by the company. Connecting the dots is not hard too see...

 

[Graham]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

Despite the threatening telephone call that my secretary received the last time I said something bad about a Horus reticle on the internet, I nevertheless chose to shoot an H-25 in all matches last year. The reticle worked fine. And because when I fucked-up it wasn't because of the reticle, I suspected that my successes were only partly due to the equipment as well.

... Like maybe it was the tank crew, and not the tank.

Horus reticles work well for people who have had minimal training and/or experience using a Mil-type reticle. Unfortunately for our ground forces, and much like our air force, one gets more seat time in or at anything as a civilian. Thus the military can, and does, benefit from the Horus system despite the fact that many decision-makers haven't a clue what works, what doesn't, and why.

All tolled: I have seen Clark shoot, and if I gave him a pellet gun he would likely smoke most of the people who have qualified themselves as experts by virtue only of a position awarded to them by a system that doesn't care about their level of competence.

So I see more value in discussing the reticle, its advantages and disadvantages, than worrying about the quality of any competition that can be 'won' or 'lost' based on the reticle choice of a paid spokesperson.

To the OP's original question here's my input, and what will be on my match rifle this year:
http://www.eurooptic.com/PDF/Schmidt-Bender-Reticle-MSR.pdf

 

[shootist2004]

Re: Schmidt and Bender w/Horus question?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Despite the threatening telephone call that my secretary received the last time I said something bad about a Horus reticle on the internet, I nevertheless chose to shoot an H-25 in all matches last year. The reticle worked fine. And because when I fucked-up it wasn't because of the reticle, I suspected that my successes were only partly due to the equipment as well.

... Like maybe it was the tank crew, and not the tank.

Horus reticles work well for people who have had minimal training and/or experience using a Mil-type reticle. Unfortunately for our ground forces, and much like our air force, one gets more seat time in or at anything as a civilian. Thus the military can, and does, benefit from the Horus system despite the fact that many decision-makers haven't a clue what works, what doesn't, and why.

All tolled: I have seen Clark shoot, and if I gave him a pellet gun he would likely smoke most of the people who have qualified themselves as experts by virtue only of a position awarded to them by a system that doesn't care about their level of competence.

So I see more value in discussing the reticle, its advantages and disadvantages, than worrying about the quality of any competition that can be 'won' or 'lost' based on the reticle choice of a paid spokesperson.

To the OP's original question here's my input, and what will be on my match rifle this year:
http://www.eurooptic.com/PDF/Schmidt-Bender-Reticle-MSR.pdf </div></div>

Thats odd....Ive been bad-mouthing them for years and never got a call!