Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender "implosion"?

[orkan]

Seems if somebody has a vested interest in the success of a product in the category, that will be the answer. Anything else would surprise me.

... and there's why I refuse to answer. If someone disagrees on this forum, and the offender is a regular member, then that person is labeled an idiot. If someone disagrees on this forum, and the offender is a vendor, then that person is also willing to lie, cheat, misrepresent the facts, and steal to make money. Anything but be truthfully representing his opinion and servicing his customers the best he knows how.

The day financial matters are my primary motivation for anything I do, I'll have a fucking tag on my toe tyler. I'm sad that you don't realize this.

 

[tylerw02]

I didn't say finances were your primary motivation, did I? I was making a general statement.

I wouldn't expect somebody to go to bat for something they didn't believe in. If one were touting a product he or she didn't believe in, then it would obviously be only for financial reasons. If that post shocks you or offends you, then we know which category you fit in.




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[orkan]

If that post shocks you or offends you, then we know which category you fit in.

Or it could be that underhanded approaches to arguments bore the shit out of me. "Seems if somebody has a vested interest.." That's not a general statement at all. A goddamn monkey could see exactly what you are inferring, and who you were targeting with that statement. That "if you're offended" passive aggressive crap might work on others, but it doesn't work with me. You knew exactly what you were saying and who you were saying it about.

I have my opinions, and you have yours. The difference is that I'm not sitting here inferring negative shit about you for holding your opinion. I'm getting so very tired of that "If you don't hold my opinion, then you are an idiot, or just financially vested" attitude around here. It's beyond old, and people need to grow up and stop identifying their online personality with the gear they run. If you don't share the same preference as someone else, that does NOT make them an idiot, and that does NOT mean they are shilling for another company. Maybe it just means they feel differently than you do, and perhaps they even have a really goddamn good reason for it.

So save the passive/aggressive shit. Last I checked, everyone appreciated straight talk here. I have PM'ed interested parties with my thoughts on the matter, beyond that... this same argument happens with goddamn near every brand in existence on this forum. So it doesn't much matter does it?

Guy1 - "Hey I like X thing."
Guy 2 - "Sounds like someone is vested in X thing's success!"
Guy1 - "I guess my opinion is invalidated."
Guy2 - "hey BRO if that offends you, then YOU must be who I was talking about, ... um... even though I wasn't... BRO"

It is so very played out.

 

[tylerw02]

Passive aggressive? Bullshit. I'm pointing out the obvious. I wouldn't expect the owner of a Honda dealer to tell me to go buy a Suzuki. Odds are he or she picked up Honda bikes is because of a passion for them. But that's just over your head I suppose.

I wasn't targeting. You or anybody, rather pointing out the obvious answer to somebody else's facetious question...but apparently you got offended. Poor thing. What negative thing did I say or "infer" about you? If anything it's positive because you're selling something you believe in.....I guess I was wrong?

Frankly, you don't like the things around here and it's so tiresome for you, don't let the door bump your tender little bottom on the way out.





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[Mirnyx]

@orkan

I can respect where you're coming from. With that said, if you're unwilling to elaborate on a subject why bother with a hit and run post that invites more questions?

My reason for asking you to elaborate was from the position of wanting to upgrade a NF NXS to something with zero-stops, matching reticle / turrets, and ffp. Better glass would be nice but reliability / durability is the most important consideration. It is my understanding S&B is still wearing the crown but you seem to feel something else may be better based on your comment.

 

[orkan]

I wouldn't expect the owner of a Honda dealer to tell me to go buy a Suzuki.

Of course you wouldn't. It's clearly over your head.

Earlier today I sent a customer to SWFA for a super sniper 1-6. I don't carry them... and that was the best scope for that customer's needs. How do you reconcile this with the statements you've made thus far?

 

[tylerw02]

Oh really? So you sell a similar product with the same feature with a similar price? And STILL sent him away? Didn't believe in your product?




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[orkan]

I'll leave you to it. Clearly there is one way... and that's yours.

 

[tylerw02]

Schmidt & Bender "implosion"?

If you can call "not walking around with a chip on my shoulder, looking for something to infer as offensive" as my way, then sure. Try it sometime.

Good luck with your future ventures.

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[orkan]

Good luck with your future ventures.

Thank you very much, that means a great deal to me.

 

[Bluejazz]

I am getting more and more bored with this site.
Everything is so argumentative.
God forbid you state your opinion or thought on a subject without getting bombarded with a bunch of negative or contradictive feedback.
Give me a break. Why don't some of you guys get off your high horses and let people state what they want without feeling like you have to be the truth police of the website.

 

[Shoottothrill]

This is a really good point. +1. Its ok to debate, but it always turns personal.

I am getting more and more bored with this site.
Everything is so argumentative.
God forbid you state your opinion or thought on a subject without getting bombarded with a bunch of negative or contradictive feedback.
Give me a break. Why don't some of you guys get off your high horses and let people state what they want without feeling like you have to be the truth police of the website.

 

[djskit]

I am getting more and more bored with this site.
Everything is so argumentative.
God forbid you state your opinion or thought on a subject without getting bombarded with a bunch of negative or contradictive feedback.
Give me a break. Why don't some of you guys get off your high horses and let people state what they want without feeling like you have to be the truth police of the website.

You obviously have a vested intersted in the success of this site....SHILL!

 

[Twisted .308]

@orkan

I can respect where you're coming from. With that said, if you're unwilling to elaborate on a subject why bother with a hit and run post that invites more questions?

My reason for asking you to elaborate was from the position of wanting to upgrade a NF NXS to something with zero-stops, matching reticle / turrets, and ffp. Better glass would be nice but reliability / durability is the most important consideration. It is my understanding S&B is still wearing the crown but you seem to feel something else may be better based on your comment.

unless you just have to have a ffp ? why not send it back to NF and have it upgraded ? i just did my NXS and had it back in less than 2 weeks

 

[Mirnyx]

unless you just have to have a ffp ? why not send it back to NF and have it upgraded ? i just did my NXS and had it back in less than 2 weeks

Probably the biggest reason is not being able to get the reticle I want.

 

[E. Bryant]

That has already happened.

Considering the length of time that the SB PMII has been at the top of the heap, it will take a while for any contenders to prove themselves worthy of the crown. At the very least, we should probably hold off on proclamations that the torch has been passed until the new product has actually hit the street.

 

[orkan]

Considering the length of time that the SB PMII has been at the top of the heap, it will take a while for any contenders to prove themselves worthy of the crown. At the very least, we should probably hold off on proclamations that the torch has been passed until the new product has actually hit the street.

Everyone assumed I was talking about one thing... when actually I meant another thing...

I considered the crown passed a couple years ago. Yet I'm quite sure that no S&B owner needs/wants to hear about that.

 

[datec]

When I get my S&B PMII 5-25x56 I will give my impression about what I feel but from what I've seen so far I'm feeling buyers remorse in not getting the Steiner or Night Force. The more I am looking at the Steiner 5-25x56 the more I think that one may have have been the better choice given the silly tunneling the S&B has. It may seem like no big deal to some but for me it just seems stupid to have such a highly priced/prized optic with a silly flaw in design that could have been corrected quite easly given other manufactures don't have it. I think that S&B needs to correct it and reintroduce it or at least correct it for those who complain, I will be complaining when I get it and we'll see what they have to say and hopefully they take their customers satisfaction seriously.

 

[Mirnyx]

Everyone assumed I was talking about one thing... when actually I meant another thing...

I considered the crown passed a couple years ago. Yet I'm quite sure that no S&B owner needs/wants to hear about that.

Another hit and run post but the smiley makes it all good.

 

[oldfatguy]

Another hit and run post but the smiley makes it all good.

Doesn't look like he is ever going to give a simple answer to a simple question. But if you look at the Primal Rights Webb sight you will find the best collection of information re: PR & TT to be found anywhere.

OFG

 

[oinco]

re: this thread

at first I was all:

now I'm:

 

[orkan]

Doesn't look like he is ever going to give a simple answer to a simple question. But if you look at the Primal Rights Webb sight you will find the best collection of information re: PR & TT to be found anywhere.

OFG

Given the way people have reacted to simple information in this thread... you're correct, I will not simply reply to questions to which the answer is certain to send a flurry of poo-flinging monkeys slinging shit all over the place again.

 

[BigJim375]

So why do the majority of top ranked shooters use SB over Premier still? I guess they are all influenced by the hype and can't make a decision for themselves. If the torch was passed it certainly was not to Premier/TT. And no, you haven't came out and said P/TT but we surely can read between the lines. How did the entire shooting community miss this changing of the guard? I've owned a premier in the past... Didn't care for it. Thought USO was better. And yes, I use a SB now. Ultimately... Who cares. Use what you want, they are all decent enough and all have their place. Pro... Cons... Just save your bullshit for someone else. We all se past it.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Given the way people have reacted to simple information in this thread... you're correct, I will not simply reply to questions to which the answer is certain to send a flurry of poo-flinging monkeys slinging shit all over the place again.

You know, someone was just wanting to understand more about quality scopes and information to aid in their decision towards a scope purchase. You failed to answer that simple question. Then you made up reasons for not answering or stating it has already been answered.

Your articles and videos on Primal Rights ? Primal Rights -- Home are good articles and seem to be very helpful. The site layout is nice. I will visit there and get your opinions later. Thank you.

However, if you do not want to contribute here, then go back to your own forum and leave us alone. We are here to learn, not watch you jack off.

 

[BigJim375]

Given the way people have reacted to simple information in this thread... you're correct, I will not simply reply to questions to which the answer is certain to send a flurry of poo-flinging monkeys slinging shit all over the place again.

And your not a poo- flinging monkey?

 

[BigJim375]

It's exactly what you are... But again, everyone here is wrong. YOU are right. Just like everyone is wrong for choosing such a horrible optic with the SB and not pickin up a Premier.

 

[Singlestack_Wonder]

S&B is not "imploding". They will remain one of the top tier scope manufacturers in the industry. Have they made some questionable product decisions over the last two years, maybe, but which scope manufacturer has not?

If one doesn't like S&B for whatever reason, look elsewhere. That's why there is a "market".

 

[orkan]

It's exactly what you are... But again, everyone here is wrong. YOU are right. Just like everyone is wrong for choosing such a horrible optic with the SB and not pickin up a Premier.

Actually, I'm defending people that made their OWN choices. Not once have I said anyone is wrong. It's the S&B crowd that is completely out of shape on this. I'm quite fine with people using what they want to use. Yet look at the way anyone that doesn't think S&B is on the top of the pile is treated here. ... and I'm the bad guy?

 

[Twisted .308]

my 2* probably means nothing but he is stating the facts , before his " Gun Business" took hold Greg also does computer work , More than once he has given me options to possibly do something outside his shop to meet my needs . Before I picked up a DTA from him ..Several Options were discussed on which direction to go and yes Other Vendors were in the equation . Greg always has gone out of his way for me to ensure I got exactly what I requested at the best possible prices, so to say he's just in it for the quick bucks is false .

 

[Shortcut]

I am not a S&B fan either but I think the problem is that people sometime would drive things to extremes. I think the name of the thread from the start is wrongly chosen as S&B is by no means on the verge of implosion. Yes, they are not allways perfect, yes, they started to get tricky with the warranty services, yes they got very expensive etc, but everyone ever holding a PMII in their hands (just to give an example) cannot think they are crapy scopes. I personally prefer scopes such as Hensoldt, March, USO etc but shit, I would by no means have a problem with using a S&B. They are extrordinary in many respects.

I have used many scopes throughout the years so when I read posts that make people idiots because they don't happen to have the "right" scope on their guns there is no doubt in my mind that the person behind such statements is a clown, a joker, a retard, has hidden interests, is a liar or else there are few other explanations left. Despite my affinity for scopes such as the above mentioned I think scopes such as S&B, IOR, Premier, Steiner, Kahles, Nightforce, Vortex and the new Tangent Theta are all great scopes. They ALL have problems but they are great scopes and I strongly disagree with anybody stating the contrary.

And no, I don't think S&B is on the verge of implosion. I visited their booth at the SHOT and what I saw there were no signs of a company imploding but rather exploding.

 

[datec]

Man you guys really have to lighten up. Just because there are some who like or dislike a particular product namely S&B does not mean you come circling the wagons to defend it like a mother lion protecting her cubs, that is just stupid. When all this started the "Fact" was that the $3400 S&B tunnels as do some other High dollar scopes in the same or similar price point and everyone came out with fangs and claws showing in defense of S&B 5-25x56 and the best anyone could explain for it is because you never ever need to go into the 5-7.5 power range so who cares. If that is all you got you need to go back to bed. The fact for me is that S&B knows there is a flaw and they don't care enough to correct it because people (like myself) will buy it anyhow. I would like to see S&B fix it, that to me is bullshit, especially at this price point as should every scope manuf. that has the problem, yes it is a problem and it needs fixed period. When I buy a truck with a 5sp standard transmission and only 2-5 gears work proper because it has enough power that 1st gear is not really needed to get moving, I and you would have a problem with that, correct? So why is it OK for S&B and others to have a scope that doesn't function as it should be considered totally acceptable.
I can tell you first hand that Greg is one of a hell of a stand-up guy that just simply wants people to get involved in the sport and get exactly what they want and will spend the time with you and anyone even if it is for something he doesn't offer (knowing he isn't making a dime) and will point you in the correct direction to see you get exactly what you are looking for. If you doubt that, you simply have never spoke with him because if you had you would know exactly how wrong you are. He's probably one of the most honorable guys that I have had the pleasure getting to know in the short time I have known him.

 

[tylerw02]

I hear the 3-27x doesn't tunnel...


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[Dogtown]

I am getting more and more bored with this site.
Everything is so argumentative.
God forbid you state your opinion or thought on a subject without getting bombarded with a bunch of negative or contradictive feedback.
Give me a break. Why don't some of you guys get off your high horses and let people state what they want without feeling like you have to be the truth police of the website.

It's annoying that from forum to forum, it's often the same offenders. The pattern is quite obvious - some people just suck at this stuff.

 

[datec]

I hear the 3-27x doesn't tunnel...


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I should have stated the 5-25x56 as the one in question, the price is correct though.

 

[tylerw02]

Typically companies make new models rather than change old ones it seems.


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[sib1948]

I love S&B, but with their price increases this year, I think the new Vortex Razor will give them a run for their money. I think competition is a good thing and improves products for the companies as well as us consumers! Good shooting.

 

[phillip61]

I love S&B, but with their price increases this year, I think the new Vortex Razor will give them a run for their money. I think competition is a good thing and improves products for the companies as well as us consumers! Good shooting.

Competition is good for everyone, it forces companies not to stand fast for very long or they'll get left behind.

 

[Mirnyx]

I love S&B, but with their price increases this year, I think the new Vortex Razor will give them a run for their money. I think competition is a good thing and improves products for the companies as well as us consumers! Good shooting.

Vortex has a good product in the Razor line but they've been in the high-end scope game for about 2 minutes. Let's give it a little more time before mentioning them in the same breath as companies like S&B.

 

[lizzardking308]

I heard S&B's were made in Nunya by midget elves that cross dress... Can anyone confirm? Could this be the cause of said "implosion" we are referring to?

 

[Rob01]

I heard S&B's were made in Nunya by midget elves that cross dress... Can anyone confirm? Could this be the cause of said "implosion" we are referring to?

No, those were Premiers.

 

[lizzardking308]

No, those were Premiers.

Thank you for clarifying. I will search deeper for the cause of this implosion as it appears that S&B is unaware they are headed for the iceberg. Impressive poker face it seems... Will post my findings when I have them. Starting to think global warming might be a contributing factor...

 

[Jaeger308]

Originally Posted by lizzardking308 I heard S&B's were made in Nunya by midget elves that cross dress... Can anyone confirm? Could this be the cause of said "implosion" we are referring to?


No, those were Premiers.


You guys owe me a new keyboard LMFAO with coffee...Rob good seeing you at SHOT, it had been awhile stay in touch.

 

[Notso]

No, those were Premiers.

Golf clap!

 

[lizzardking308]

Not wanting to leave everyone hanging, here goes my findings after spending the last three hours searching and asking credible sources "within the industry" on the supposed implosion at S&B. I also put a few rounds down range to test my theory using said brand of scopes.

It is true, there is an implosion due to several factors. I have found.

1 - The scopes do not guarantee a hit each time. I missed my intended target a few times, clearly the scopes fault.
2 - The scope does not pull the trigger for me, I must still do this manually. You would think they could accomodate this by now.
3 - The scope does not shag my brass as it is rather lazy, staying put during my shooting session.
4 - The tunneling effect caused my wind drift to be more than normal, further causing my misses to be more pronounced.
5 - The scope did not adjust enough to make up for my slapping of the trigger each time, one would think it would have "learned" my shooting style by now.

More research is necessary to truely spell out the shortcomings of these scopes. In the mean time it seems a fire sale is necessary for all mine, so stay tuned for some killer prices on imploding optics. Trades accepted for wampum and beef jerky, plus cash on my end of course.

 

[tylerw02]

Zing


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[Shortcut]

I happen to have a package of buffalo jerky laying around in my fridge. Would that cover for a PMII with MSR? I don't like S&B but I could consider offering a package of jerky just to get a scope for my kids to play with.

 

[lizzardking308]

I happen to have a package of buffalo jerky laying around in my fridge. Would that cover for a PMII with MSR? I don't like S&B but I could consider offering a package of jerky just to get a scope for my kids to play with.

That would depend on if the jerky is teriyaki flavored and how much cash on my end. I don't want to take advantage of you, and in full disclosure, the tunneling is present on the 5-25's I checked. Don't want you to waste a perfectly good bag of jerky on a broken scope.

 

[Shortcut]

It's definitely the teriyaki flavor. I could skip the cash if you could consider throwing in an ARD and a fitting SPUHR mount to it, just because I feel like being extra kind today. That should level it.

 

[lizzardking308]

It's definitely the teriyaki flavor. I could skip the cash if you could consider throwing in an ARD an a fitting SPUHR mount to it, just because I feel like being extra kind today. That should level it.

You are a gentleman and a scholar sir. Maybe we could offer other owners of imploding scopes similar offers and help them rid themselves of such inferior products. All completely annonymous of course...

I mean, imagine how embarassing it would be for them to show off their rifle at the local gun shop and have someone notice the tunneling. Or even worse, while at the range, or someone wanted to see whose was bigger, they would surely lose with the imploding scope. Someone needs to produce a PSA to spread the word.

Stay tuned for an "Imploding Scope Disposal" thread... Line up folks, plenty of Jerky for all, no need to push... Shortcut and I are here to help. No, really...

 

[Thumper580]

That would depend on if the jerky is teriyaki flavored and how much cash on my end. I don't want to take advantage of you, and in full disclosure, the tunneling is present on the 5-25's I checked. Don't want you to waste a perfectly good bag of jerky on a broken scope.

I have a broken push mower I could trade for a S&B scope. It would make a great hammer.