Rifle Scopes Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

#51
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

Good luck with whatever you choose. I am NOT an experienced long range shooter and I couldn't tell you which scope is better - and there's no "wrong" answer, people have different opinions. I suggest you look at all of them through your own eyes and compare the features you want and get that scope if it's in your price range.
 
#52
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Special Delivery</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hk dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still waiting... but if it goes over $3K I don't know that I'll be interested.
frown.gif


</div></div>

I'm pretty sure it will be in the 3K+ price range, at that point I would always get the S&B. If they cranked them out at $2500-$2700, I think they would not be able to keep them in stock. </div></div>


This is what I was just thinking. I suspect they will be priced as a direct competitor to the S&B 5-25. At this point, I agree, I would still choose the S&B for my money.
 
#53
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: beenjammin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Special Delivery</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hk dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm still waiting... but if it goes over $3K I don't know that I'll be interested.
frown.gif


</div></div>

I'm pretty sure it will be in the 3K+ price range, at that point I would always get the S&B. If they cranked them out at $2500-$2700, I think they would not be able to keep them in stock. </div></div>


This is what I was just thinking. I suspect they will be priced as a direct competitor to the S&B 5-25. At this point, I agree, I would still choose the S&B for my money. </div></div>


I wouldn't be so quick in reaching this decision. Who's to say a 3k NF won't surpass a 3k+ S&B? Durability, tracking and IMHO resoloution has always been excellent with NF and they've done this at with a price point well under S&B. That roughly 1k NF is adding to the price (if indeed they are) MAY just put it over the top, they can't be spending all that on illumation control which is the only minor issue I have with them. I wouldn't ever discount a company like NF, they've been building some pretty awesome scopes for a long time and are more than capable of competing with the anyone in the market.
 
#54
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Runamuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I wouldn't be so quick in reaching this decision. Who's to say a 3k NF won't surpass a 3k+ S&B? Durability, tracking and IMHO resoloution has always been excellent with NF and they've done this at with a price point well under S&B. That roughly 1k NF is adding to the price (if indeed they are) MAY just put it over the top, they can't be spending all that on illumation control which is the only minor issue I have with them. I wouldn't ever discount a company like NF, they've been building some pretty awesome scopes for a long time and are more than capable of competing with the anyone in the market.
</div></div>

Who's to say it will? The S&B is a proven scope in both civilian and military hands and they have been making scopes for a very long time as well. Guess we will have to wait and see.
 
#56
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I'm happy with my nightforces. Had several and none have ever given me any trouble and they all track perfect. Thats just my experience. From the SFP to the FFP. I agree with the lower power deal on NF and FFP but I choose SFP in my high mag scopes anyway. I love FFP in the 3.5x15. It's more fitting to me. Anyway, good luck with your choice OP. Might not be as-good as the other brands in other peoples eyes but they have always got it done before and they are super tough.
 
#57
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Runamuk said:
Who's to say it will? The S&B is a proven scope in both civilian and military hands and they have been making scopes for a very long time as well. Guess we will have to wait and see. </div></div>

The NF is just as proven. I would put NF durability up against anyones. I am not saying it is better than S&B, but I will say the S&B price difference is not worth it. I have or have had all the top end scopes and the NF is far and away the best value. There is no way one can say just because the S&B has better glass it commands a $1,000 price difference. Everything else about the scopes is a wash. Both are reliable, track, and are proven in battlefields.
Click to expand...
 
#58
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I was talking about his talking about a scope that isnt even out yet and making those assumptions. Not saying anything a out NF. Relax.
 
#59
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rushfan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Add the New Steiner Tactical 5-25x56 to the mix.

FFP, Stout build and German glass and construction quality. </div></div>

I'm liking mine more every time I take it out.
 
#60
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I'm relaxed. Didn't mean to sound combative. Just waiting impatiently for NF to release another f1. I think it's a pretty safe bet to assume they will be reliable. They have been working on it for a while now. I just hope they keep it close to $3,000. I love my S&B, but their price increase was uncalled for when exchange rates went in our favor.
 
#61
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The NF is just as proven. I would put NF durability up against anyones. I am not saying it is better than S&B, but I will say the S&B price difference is not worth it. I have or have had all the top end scopes and the NF is far and away the best value. There is no way one can say just because the S&B has better glass it commands a $1,000 price difference. Everything else about the scopes is a wash. Both are reliable, track, and are proven in battlefields. </div></div>
Being the best "value" and being the best are two different things.
Better glass is what optics are all about.
It is not the only factor in a rifle scope but a significant factor.
At the end of the day ~ S&B has much more going for it than NF.
FWIW I own both.
 
#62
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Runamuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I wouldn't be so quick in reaching this decision. Who's to say a 3k NF won't surpass a 3k+ S&B? Durability, tracking and IMHO resoloution has always been excellent with NF and they've done this at with a price point well under S&B. That roughly 1k NF is adding to the price (if indeed they are) MAY just put it over the top, they can't be spending all that on illumation control which is the only minor issue I have with them. I wouldn't ever discount a company like NF, they've been building some pretty awesome scopes for a long time and are more than capable of competing with the anyone in the market.
</div></div>

Who's to say it will? The S&B is a proven scope in both civilian and military hands and they have been making scopes for a very long time as well. Guess we will have to wait and see. </div></div>

I agree with you; I was just making the point that others have already decided a 3k SB is already better than 3k NF without ever seeing the 3k NF. Like you I have a bit of experience with both, its my opinion the SB is the superior optic at this point, but from a price standpoint it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison due to the cost delta. Add 1k of features to the NF and it may or may not compare favorably, "guess we'll have to wait an see".
If you would have told me Vortex was building a scope that would standup in a comparison to NF I may have laughed, but they did. NF can do the same.
 
#63
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smschulz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The NF is just as proven. I would put NF durability up against anyones. I am not saying it is better than S&B, but I will say the S&B price difference is not worth it. I have or have had all the top end scopes and the NF is far and away the best value. There is no way one can say just because the S&B has better glass it commands a $1,000 price difference. Everything else about the scopes is a wash. Both are reliable, track, and are proven in battlefields. </div></div>
Being the best "value" and being the best are two different things.
Better glass is what optics are all about.
It is not the only factor in a rifle scope but a significant factor.
At the end of the day ~ S&B has much more going for it than NF.
FWIW I own both.

</div></div>

I own both as well and a premier and the glass in the S&B and Premier offer me no advantage over the NF that I have found. I have used them all hunting and in matches. At no point in time using my NF was I ever at a disadvantage because of the optics.
 
#64
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I would like to thank everyone for their input. I ended up going with a NightForce 5.5-22X56 with ZeroStop. I had a conversation with Barrett and they are updating the BORS to with with the zero stop system. I recently bought an MRAD and have been incredibly pleased with the purchase. The bolt throw is a little long for my liking but WOW, what a difference a great rifle can do. A great step up from my FNH Patrol Bolt Rifle in .308.
 
#65
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

Oh, I also had to buy reloading gear... Eating the additional 1,000 or so dollars that would have put the S&B in reach. I will take the advice hear and not look through one until I have the spare coin to think about it.
smile.gif
 
#66
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I've used a friends NF 5.5-22 and I've just recently purchased a S&B 3-20. One thing I haven't read anyone mention on here is other than the glass, is the features of the scope which is something else that plays into the price hike. I love my S&B locking MTC turrets, FFP and bigger selection of reticles, I went with the P4f. Both scopes are gonna get the job done, but the S&B suits me better. Take a look at the features of the scopes and make sure they fit your operating style and mission requirements. You probably won't be disappointed either way but glass quality shouldn't be the only reason you go with either of the scopes you are considering. Keep an eye out on here and you will more than likely find a lightly used scope for far less than MSRP. I luckily found my S&B on here for a very reasonable price. One thing I will say is that the first trip to the range with a S&B will make you forget about the extra $ you spent. S&B's hold their value so if it's too tough a pill to swallow you can make most of it back. My friend with the NF is now considering a S&B since only looking through my scope. Good luck ...
 
#67
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

NateD33, I'd like to hear more about your S&B 3-20, that is one that has been on my radar. I have been looking at multiple 3.x - 18+x type scopes for a while. Because I am somewhat remote I don't have access to a lot of stores that carry these expensive scopes so I've been relying on "reviews" and purchasing from reputable companies that I can return if I'm not satisfied.

So far I've tested the Valdada 3-18x42 with MP-8 dot, Vortex Viper PST 4-16x40 (not really the range I was looking for but wanted to see the quality) and the Bushnell Tactical Elite 3.5-21x50 with G2DMR. I am still waiting for the Valdada 3.5-18x50mm (which is supposed to be a lot better than the 3-18) and the Leupold Mark 6 3-18x44. The S&B 3-20 and the Leupold Mark 8 3.5-25 fall into the "higher" list in my category as they are both well over $2k. Nightforce and Zeiss Hensoldt did not make my list because they don't offer a 5-6x or more zoom range which is what I was looking for.
 
#68
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

Dunno if it was mentioned but S&B doesn't have a zero stop on their P&M II as I recall. But even so I'd take a S&B over a NF any day.

(Ever try to change the NF reticle illumination level in a hurry? Don't.)
 
#69
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: litehiker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dunno if it was mentioned but S&B doesn't have a zero stop on their P&M II as I recall.
</div></div>

You recall incorrectly. S&B does have a zero stop on all their PMII line.
 
#70
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I may need to find a better place to price S&B. When I was pulling the trigger on some glass earlier this year there was alot more than a $1000 difference between the NF 5.5-22 and the PMII. A $1600 difference to be exact. I agree the S&B glass was much better, but the ability to get 2 Nightforces for barely more than 1 S&B sealed the deal for me, and I actually prefer the sfp reticle at max mag. I am also looking forward to this mythical "Beast". If it MAPs at 3k, we should see street prices I would guess around $2800 with a good deal?
 
#71
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I haven't had much time to run it through it's paces yet but so far I'm beyond impressed. The scope tracks perfect, you pay good money for the closest thing to exact clicks. The MTC turrets are nice and positive and once you get used to them, which doesn't take long, you can make adjustments in low light or without breaking your position. The locking feature helps when shooting tactical matches and your moving from position to position to ensure you don't make unwanted adjustments on the move, for one example. The magnification grip has been improved by being made bigger with a bigger, elevated reference "nub." Illumination on the scope is nice and easy to use. And lastly the glass is in a class by itself, target ID is made easy and spotting your shot is made that much more easier for a couple examples that I noticed when running my S&B next to a NF. That's just a couple things I can think of off the top on my head that stuck out so far, if you have anymore specific questions let me know and I'll answer to the best of my knowledge.
 
#72
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

Some of you guys are overly-obsessed with glass quality. Glass quality is not the most important thing on a scope. Furthermore, you can't just throw one up at the shop and "look through it" to evaluate glass quality. That is a very ignorant practice that completely ignores what should be evaluated in a rifle scope.
 
#73
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

Try the classifieds on here for better prices, glass may be used and have some light wear but you can always deals. I found my S&B on here, brand new, for several hundred under MSRP.
 
#74
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I like the nightforce but even at its price point it makes multiple scopes hard to swallow. Thats why I'll prolly never have a S&B and I'm ok with that. The nightforce will do all I ask of it any I'm happy. Like Alpha said do yourself a favor and buy the nightforce and never look through a S&B
 
#75
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: litehiker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dunno if it was mentioned but S&B doesn't have a zero stop on their P&M II as I recall.
</div></div>

You recall incorrectly. S&B does have a zero stop on all their PMII line. </div></div>



LOL.
 
#76
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

Thank you for sharing NateD33. It's on my list of scopes to review and I was just curious what your impressions are. Then again, I don't think I've ever read a "bad" review of a S&B, it may not be everyone's cup of tea, but you certainly can't find much fault in one of the best.

I'm not sure if you've ever used or played with a S&B 4-16x but was curious how they handled the greater magnification range of the 3-20x as that's a difference of 4x to 6.7x which is quite significant, but I've been seeing some pretty amazing results in my own tests of these higher magnification range scopes.
 
#77
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm relaxed. Didn't mean to sound combative. Just waiting impatiently for NF to release another f1. I think it's a pretty safe bet to assume they will be reliable. They have been working on it for a while now. I just hope they keep it close to $3,000. I love my S&B, but their price increase was uncalled for when exchange rates went in our favor. </div></div>

Pricing, of course, is not based solely on the cost of materials and manufacturing, plus profitable margin. Once the basic financial viability of the product is determined, the psychological part of pricing takes over. A Nightforce F1 in 5.5-22 power will not cost Nightforce much more than an F1 in 3.5-15 power. If it is priced $1000 higher, then it's all about what the market (i.e. excitable people) will bear. At $3000, I'd call it a joke.
 
#78
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

In response to being overly-obsessed with glass quality, I believe it's a trait worth noting when your contemplating spending around $3k on a SCOPE. I find it almost unusual if someone gets behind a S&B or a Premier and doesn't mention the glass quality. My reply wasn't only about the glass quality, I only mentioned it among other important traits of the scope that someone had inquired about. I guess I should've just said "I've used many scopes to include NF, Premier, Bushnell, Trijicon, Nikon, Weaver, US Optics, Leupold and IMHO my S&B 3-20 is THE CATS ASS!" so as to not offend anyone over mentioning glass quality since that would've been totally worth mine or anyone else's time to read ...
 
#79
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

It's not that you've offended anybody. But how often in these threads do people base decision almost solely on how the scope's glass "looks". Then they say "don't look through one because nothing else will be as good" and other glass comments. It would be much, much more pertinent to comment on the features that make a scope function as intended for our sport. How frequently do you have time to admire how beautiful the image of the target is on a stage? The reality is you need to see the target an that's about it. The scope's main function is to act as an aiming system which matches point of aim to poin of impact. It must be durable, reliable, and user friendly in a manner that allows the shooter to make necessary adjustments without distraction or confusion.

For this reason, I believe, is why you're seeing relatively low-end Bushnell HDMRs doing so well in matches and becoming more popular, despite it's noted chromatic aberration, relatively poor resolution, and all the other glass-related complaints. It has proven to be reliable, has nice knobs, a user-friendly reticle, FFP, and good magnification range. IOR scopes have been noted for "good glass", but how often do you see them with PRS shooters? Why?

I will say the only time I've had a shot I couldn't make because of glass quality was when hunting. I could see the animal fine in my Swarovski binos, but not through my relatively cheap hunting scope. No matter, it was before legal shooting hours anyway.

I've never haunted with my huge S&B 5-25x on my match rifle as rifles like that suck in the woods and in and out of tree stands. Maybe if I ever hunt in the open fields with extended range again...
 
#80
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lexington</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm relaxed. Didn't mean to sound combative. Just waiting impatiently for NF to release another f1. I think it's a pretty safe bet to assume they will be reliable. They have been working on it for a while now. I just hope they keep it close to $3,000. I love my S&B, but their price increase was uncalled for when exchange rates went in our favor. </div></div>

Pricing, of course, is not based solely on the cost of materials and manufacturing, plus profitable margin. Once the basic financial viability of the product is determined, the psychological part of pricing takes over. A Nightforce F1 in 5.5-22 power will not cost Nightforce much more than an F1 in 3.5-15 power. If it is priced $1000 higher, then it's all about what the market (i.e. excitable people) will bear. At $3000, I'd call it a joke. </div></div>

I can assure you the 5-25 F1 costs more to produce than the 3.5-15 F1. Landed cost of goods heavily influences sale price. This will be a Made in USA scope as well like our 15x F1.

The new 5-25 is also several generations ahead of current NXS optical quality and mechanical technology. The NXS, of which, is a 10 year old design that is still extremely viable in the market. I think many are expecting the 5-25 to be another NXS. I look forward to hearing the opinions and perceptions after release. Our intent was to design the best 5-25 on the market.
Ultimately you folks will be the judge.

I know by my posting that it will open up several questions.Questions of which cannot be answered at this time. We hope to see all interested visit us at SHOT.
 
#82
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I've said time again, make an F1 NXS in 5.5-22x56 with no additional price at the same quality and price as the current F1 and I'd take two. I don't think I'm the only person. That price point, looks like Votex and Bushnell own the market. I want to buy NF because I've had great luck with them in thr past. I've been reluctant to try Vortex. Ultimately, I may or save and save for another Bender.
 
#83
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've said time again, make an F1 NXS in 5.5-22x56 with no additional price at the same quality and price as the current F1 and I'd take two. I don't think I'm the only person. That price point, looks like Votex and Bushnell own the market. I want to buy NF because I've had great luck with them in thr past. I've been reluctant to try Vortex. Ultimately, I may or save and save for another Bender. </div></div>

I agree with you.

I've been saying the same thing since the 3-15 F1 came out: Where is teh 5.5-22 version??!!??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00Bullit</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The NXS, of which, is a 10 year old design that is <span style="font-weight: bold">still extremely viable</span> in the market.</div></div>

Exactly!!

All y'all had to do was move the 5.5-22 reticle into the FFP, and ship it. Not design/redesign the best scope ever.
 
#84
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've said time again, make an F1 NXS in 5.5-22x56 with no additional price at the same quality and price as the current F1 and I'd take two. I don't think I'm the only person. That price point, looks like Votex and Bushnell own the market. I want to buy NF because I've had great luck with them in thr past. I've been reluctant to try Vortex. Ultimately, I may or save and save for another Bender. </div></div>

I'm on the same boat. I'd buy that without a second thought.

Now one that is competing with an S&B, Premier, Hendsolt... wouldn't be a very easy decision.
 
#85
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The new 5-25 is also several generations ahead of current NXS optical quality and mechanical technology. The NXS, of which, is a 10 year old design that is still extremely viable in the market. I think many are expecting the 5-25 to be another NXS.</div></div>

The original 5.5-22x had a 4x mag range, this new 5-25 has a 5x mag range, not only that, NF is saying they are using new glass and mechanics superior to the old NXS, this is good yes? But I can also understand the hesitancy if the price is $1000 more. I am not interested in a 5-25x; however, I would be very interested in a 3.5-18x just to make my plug to NF
smile.gif


Again, sounds like good things are coming to SHOT in 2013!
 
#86
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hk dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now one that is competing with an S&B, Premier, Hendsolt... wouldn't be a very easy decision.</div></div>

Are you saying it would be difficult for you to think of NF in the same sentence as S&B, Hensoldt and Premier or are you saying that it would be difficult for you to choose between the 4?
 
#87
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill3@8</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hk dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now one that is competing with an S&B, Premier, Hendsolt... wouldn't be a very easy decision.</div></div>

Are you saying it would be difficult for you to think of NF in the same sentence as S&B, Hensoldt and Premier or are you saying that it would be difficult for you to choose between the 4?

</div></div>

Both! At least for me.

I think of NF as a dependable, quality product. While I don't think "NF" when I think of super top end rifle scopes, it's not that I don't think NF can do it. It's just that they havent't done it. They haven't tried...until now, anyway.
 
#88
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill3@8</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hk dave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now one that is competing with an S&B, Premier, Hendsolt... wouldn't be a very easy decision.</div></div>

Are you saying it would be difficult for you to think of NF in the same sentence as S&B, Hensoldt and Premier or are you saying that it would be difficult for you to choose between the 4?

</div></div>

I guess what i'm saying is that, a Nightforce 5.5-22x F1 with the current glass at a price not much more than the current F1, would be a no brainer. There's nothing in the current world of scopes that I'd be interested above such a Nightforce scope at that price range. I'd buy that one without even glancing at another scope.

Now if the Nightforce was a 5-25x F1 with the glass of an S&B, Premier, Hendsolt and also played in the same price range, in the end, it would come down to the one with the best features and Nightforce would no longer be the clear and easy choice.
 
#89
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

Gotcha, thank you for clarifying. I'm not so much into brand loyalty per se, anyone can surprise us (look at what Bushnell has done with their Elite Tactical line). If a scope has got all the features that I want then I will take a serious look at it. NF has always struck me odd with their mag ranges, but then again I think they wanted to be different. The 5-25 is the first sign of good things to come...
 
#90
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All y'all had to do was move the 5.5-22 reticle into the FFP, and ship it. Not design/redesign the best scope ever. </div></div>

It is not that easy. If it were, coulda been done long ago. Even the 15x F1 is not just a converted SFP scope. It was a ground up optical design for FFP.

And.....we recognize that a lower cost alternative is appealing to the market. Those desires and requests are not falling on deaf ears.
 
#91
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All y'all had to do was move the 5.5-22 reticle into the FFP, and ship it. Not design/redesign the best scope ever. </div></div>

It is not that easy. If it were, coulda been done long ago. Even the 15x F1 is not just a converted SFP scope. It was a ground up optical design for FFP.

And.....we recognize that a lower cost alternative is appealing to the market. Those desires and requests are not falling on deaf ears.</div></div>

It's so nice when the industry listens to what we want.
laugh.gif
I love my Nightforce scopes.
 
#92
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lexington</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm relaxed. Didn't mean to sound combative. Just waiting impatiently for NF to release another f1. I think it's a pretty safe bet to assume they will be reliable. They have been working on it for a while now. I just hope they keep it close to $3,000. I love my S&B, but their price increase was uncalled for when exchange rates went in our favor. </div></div>

Pricing, of course, is not based solely on the cost of materials and manufacturing, plus profitable margin. Once the basic financial viability of the product is determined, the psychological part of pricing takes over. A Nightforce F1 in 5.5-22 power will not cost Nightforce much more than an F1 in 3.5-15 power. If it is priced $1000 higher, then it's all about what the market (i.e. excitable people) will bear. At $3000, I'd call it a joke. </div></div>

So do you consider the S&B at $3,700 a joke?
 
#93
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I'm glad to hear you're listening to us. I'm not an optics engineer, I aways assumed the same 15x F1 technology could just be tweaked rather than a complete redesign to make a 22x F1. I'm looking forward to what the future holds with your new products. Hopefully, that mid-range price, high power F1 materializes or even something similar to Leupold's new Mk6 vs their Mk8. Thanks for being here for us!
 
#94
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lexington</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm relaxed. Didn't mean to sound combative. Just waiting impatiently for NF to release another f1. I think it's a pretty safe bet to assume they will be reliable. They have been working on it for a while now. I just hope they keep it close to $3,000. I love my S&B, but their price increase was uncalled for when exchange rates went in our favor. </div></div>

Pricing, of course, is not based solely on the cost of materials and manufacturing, plus profitable margin. Once the basic financial viability of the product is determined, the psychological part of pricing takes over. A Nightforce F1 in 5.5-22 power will not cost Nightforce much more than an F1 in 3.5-15 power. If it is priced $1000 higher, then it's all about what the market (i.e. excitable people) will bear. At $3000, I'd call it a joke. </div></div>

I can assure you the 5-25 F1 costs more to produce than the 3.5-15 F1. Landed cost of goods heavily influences sale price. This will be a Made in USA scope as well like our 15x F1.

The new 5-25 is also several generations ahead of current NXS optical quality and mechanical technology. The NXS, of which, is a 10 year old design that is still extremely viable in the market. I think many are expecting the 5-25 to be another NXS. I look forward to hearing the opinions and perceptions after release. Our intent was to design the best 5-25 on the market.
Ultimately you folks will be the judge.

I know by my posting that it will open up several questions.Questions of which cannot be answered at this time. We hope to see all interested visit us at SHOT. </div></div>

Fair enough.

However, I'll continue. There is no absolute correlation between price and value. Price relates to the buyer's perceived value, and he'll buy because the price of the product closely matches his perceived value of the product. That concept is well known in business, and I suspect Nightforce knows it too.

I've watched as Leupold introduced new tactical scopes and priced them in the $1800 to $2400 range, not unlike the present Nightforce price range. Before that, Leupold scopes were in the $1200 range, +/-. I think they wanted to compete in the "better" scope market and priced themselves like Nightforce so they could be perceived as being like Nightforce.

Now there is talk in this thread of Nightforce pricing its unreleased scope in the same range as Schmidt & Bender. A marketer might guess that is a calculated move to be perceived as being like S&B. Pricing has that effect.
 
#95
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lexington</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm relaxed. Didn't mean to sound combative. Just waiting impatiently for NF to release another f1. I think it's a pretty safe bet to assume they will be reliable. They have been working on it for a while now. I just hope they keep it close to $3,000. I love my S&B, but their price increase was uncalled for when exchange rates went in our favor. </div></div>

Pricing, of course, is not based solely on the cost of materials and manufacturing, plus profitable margin. Once the basic financial viability of the product is determined, the psychological part of pricing takes over. A Nightforce F1 in 5.5-22 power will not cost Nightforce much more than an F1 in 3.5-15 power. If it is priced $1000 higher, then it's all about what the market (i.e. excitable people) will bear. At $3000, I'd call it a joke. </div></div>

So do you consider the S&B at $3,700 a joke? </div></div>

I don't know. Has S&B met its own product objectives and have they provided the value the buyer expects? My argument is not about Nightforce vs. S&B. Substitute "Company A" and "Company B" in my post, and I think it makes my point.
 
#96
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I realize I am new to this forum and this subject may have been covered many times over already, but I see this thread going the way of many in the photography forums. It is an age old debate about whether or not something is worth it, and then whether or not you can afford it.

We live in a free market society which means manufacturer's are allowed to create what they'd like and then sell that product at a price that they think the market will bear. I used to work for a manufacturing company and understand a little bit about the market. You have to understand all the costs involved, and I think that is what 00bullitt was referring to with the 5-25. They are using "better" glass, which costs more, heck, most all raw materials have risen. Then there is R&D, that can take a huge chunk of a companies revenue. Bringing out a new product is no small endeavor and the mfr is going to try and recover those costs, especially in the early stages of release (almost any new product to the market will come with a premium selling at or near MSRP). Then the price will adjust accordingly based on what the market will allow. And who determines what the "market will bear" that's you and me.

Please realize this is a very simplified response to a very complex equation, but I hope it makes sense to most. Let's walk through some scenarios and take the NF 5-25 F1 as an example. NF officially announces the 5-25x F1 at SHOT and lots of people are excited because marketing does their job in showing off all the new features and technology. NF sells 10 scopes to a dealer at $2500 each and the dealer in turn advertises the scope for $3000 to the general public. Now, there are three possible situations that can happen: sales go through the roof, sales are as expected, sales are stagnant (and of course, anything in between).

Sales go through the roof = the dealer sells out on pre-orders before they even get the product and puts in their order for more (so far so good, it is better than NF hoped). This justifies their price point and they keep it at that price until they have recovered a lot of their initial costs and sales begin to slow. Over time the price comes down some now that profit margins have been met.

Sales are as expected = maybe a few pre-orders and the dealer sells out of stock in a month or two (not as good as NF hoped but this was their baseline). Sales are going okay but not great so dealers may opt to drop the price to hopefully spark sales. NF may also opt to drop price some to help stimulate sales.

Sales are stagnant = maybe a few pre-orders from those who always have to have the latest and greatest, but then stock just sits there on their shelves. Dealers make no money when stock is collecting dust and no new orders are coming in to NF so they aren't making money either. Price drops occur across the board as the mfr realizes they have either made a product the market doesn't want, or they have priced their product too high. Either way big price drops are coming.

Again, a very simplified approach but I think you all get the idea. NF can choose to sell the scope for $10,000 if they want to. The point is they are going to try to sell their products at a price they think it is worth; however, it is the market that will decide whether or not the product is actually worth it. Then there is also "name recognition", and yes, when you buy a brand you are paying in part for that "brand". Do Dolce&Gabbana jeans really cost 10x more than Levi's to make? Of course not, but people go out and buy them even though they cost 10x more. Maybe they fit better and have higher quality stitching but does that justify the cost?

You see, human beings are a really odd herd. We are mesmerized by marketing hype and perceived value and especially American's, my gosh, we are some of the worst. Materialism rules the day with the "gotta have" attitude. And I'll be the first to admit that I get sucked into that as well.

I am in the process right now of trying to figure out the best long range scope that meets my particular criteria. Unfortunately NF doesn't make one that meets that criteria; however S&B does with their 3-20x, but at $3500 I'm not even considering it even though it may be the best. I'd rather spend more on my build or on reloading and get a "cheaper" scope that can still get the job done, and that job is to hit an intended target from 100 - 1000+ yards, and if a "cheaper" scope can do that then what am I missing?
 
#97
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

I hope you don't buy Levi's. They are on the other team.

If the "cheaper" scope does it for you, you're best to buy it. Sometimes they are fine, sometimes not. You gotta roll the dice and see. It comes down to just that, will it do its job reliably? Which is why I argue the Bushnell HDMR that sells relatively low is becoming popular. But "spending more on your build" is essentially the same difference. You can sink all kinds of money into a gun and make it no more able to hit the target. You've got to place your bets and figure out what works best for you.

In the end, that's part of the game; selecting the right equipment. Your scores will show if you put your money in the right place or not. Divide it between reloading equipment, training ammo, instruction, the rifle, the optics, and the other tools of the trade that help you make the shot such as bipods, bags, weather meters, slings, ACIs, levels, electronic ballistic programs, etc. Your goal is to maximize performance with a blend of all the pieces of the system. Personally, its easier to spend more on the glass because I can put it on any rifle I want, its not going to quickly wear, and it requires little to no maintenance. Rifle barrels wear out. Magazines wear. Reloading components get used up and vary lot to lot. I spend my money on glass, reloading equipment, and the buying big lots of components---and shooting it!
 
#98
Re: Schmidt & Bender vs. NightForce... Let me have it

Tyler, some excellent points indeed. As for Levi's we do our best not to send our money their way; however, we would all be surprised to find out how many mfr's are "on the other team" as you say
wink.gif


My gosh it can get overwhelming, just looking at your list I realize how much money I've dropped into this over the years, and I don't even shoot competitively (yet), and now that prices are so much higher it makes it even more difficult.

Speaking of the Bushnell DMR that is the one high on my list right now. It has really impressed me in terms of price vs. performance, and with a limited budget to mod my current rifle and get a new scope and some other accessories, the money I could save by purchasing something under $1500 can go toward other needs.

At the end of the day, most of us purchase a scope to put a bunch of little bullets into the tightest group possible, and if you can do that with a Barska 3-9x then who am I to argue with you. I guess the question we all need to ask ourselves is "what is my goal" and then consider the factors that affect that goal.

I love that the shooting sports can be so diverse and yet achieve similar results. If your goal is to shoot sub moa at 100 yards then you can be shooting a Winchester, Remington, Savage or custom build and all can achieve similar results (within reason). Hand that same build with the same ammo to another shooter and they may shoot better or worse. We have such good equipment available to us today that if we're shooting horrible groups it is probably not the equipment but the shooter and we only have ourselves to blame. The old adage "practice makes perfect" is really true in this case. Unless you have a boatload of money lying around, be content with what you have and practice the heck out of it, once you realize you've reached the limitations of your equipment (and not your shooting ability) then look at upgrading. Ha, even writing this I realize that often I don't practice what I preach as I too get caught up in the "gotta have" mode... it's a tough one to shake.

I'm sorry, I think I really got off topic here but just thinking out loud.
 
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