Rifle Scopes Schmidt problem or Badger Ring problem

[TexasMade]

http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a574/connelyXtreme/20141006_084847_zpshb5hos6f.jpg


Ok hiders. I have a problem of some sort and need help figuring it out. My zero will not stay dead on. The left target bottom 5 shots demonstrates one week ago before I went to match. I had to bring it up .2 and hit center...which made me question what was going on. The right target demonstrates todays 5 shots. Same clothing. It was .4 high. Ive been chasing a zero since I got this scope and ring set up and believe that to be the problem since I don't have this problem on my other precision rigs. Any suggestions?

6.5x47 Surgeon
Schmidt and Bender 5x25
Badger Ordnance rings.

 

[918v]

Could be your load. Could be parallax.

 

[poison123]

Could be your load. Could be parallax.

Unless he's talking like multiple grains or a insane seating difference.....his load wouldn't change his POI that much.

Thats a pretty big shift for parallax at 100y too I think.

Op what did you torque the rings to? Both for base and top?

 

[TexasMade]

15 inch pounds on top screws. Torqued the nut on the side to 50 inch pounds. Its not parrallax..im a proficient shooter I know how to set that. My load has an SD of 7 so not worried bout that.

 

[Chiller]

Floated barrel?
Torque on the action?
Has someone other than you shot it?

 

[Chiller]

Which Surgeon Action? 591 or RSR

 

[TexasMade]

591. J allen chassis so floated. Action screws torqued. No other shooter has shot it

 

[918v]

Unless he's talking like multiple grains or a insane seating difference.....his load wouldn't change his POI that much.

Thats a pretty big shift for parallax at 100y too I think.

A .2" or .4" shift in POI can realistically be due to load or parallax.

 

[poison123]

A .2" or .4" shift in POI can realistically be due to load or parallax.

LOL those are a lot more than .2 or .4 inches. And again doubtful.

 

[918v]

The OP himself said he had to correct .2" and .4"

 

[poison123]

The OP himself said he had to correct .2" and .4"

.2 or .4 MIL is not equal to .2" or .4" inches.

 

[918v]

oops.

 

[Sapper524]

Shooting off the same surface/rest/position both time?

 

[cramey74]

Why not mount another scope on it to eliminate that possibility? That is a lot of shift for it to be the ammo.

Chris

 

[jaycoux]

What turrets are on your SB?

 

[kansas]

It's always fun (fun like having a tooth pulled) to chase down problems like these. All you can do is start eliminating every variable. I'd have a tendency to think it was a chassis issue.

 

[jaycoux]

I had a 5-25 SB on an AIAWSM 338 LM that started having shifting poi issues. I sent the rifle off to AI before finding out that tbe SB had a number of things that needed to be fixed. Scope was about 3 yrs old on a safe queen that hardly ever got any use. Jerry and the guys got it back in spec, and i learned a valuable lesson about expensive optics: they break too.
There are some issues with the new mtc turrets. From what i have read you need to follow a very particular procedure when you set it to zero.

 

[TexasMade]

Shooting off the same surface/rest/position both time?

Yes sir same spot

 

[TexasMade]

What turrets are on your SB?

MTC

 

[TexasMade]

Why not mount another scope on it to eliminate that possibility? That is a lot of shift for it to be the ammo.

Chris

All the other scopes are perfectly sighted in to other rifles. Kinda hate to take one off honestly

 

[TexasMade]

All I know to do is keep testing...

1. If your SD is good on your ammo, but you are near max and one round has a slightly sticky bolt but the velocity is still the same as the others within 15fps would it make much difference on paper? Debating taking my load down just a hair just in case even though SD has always been good...

2. Taking off butler creeks tomo. Its possible that covers are touching barrel when shot. Its a close clearance

 

[NoLegs24]

There are some issues with the new mtc turrets. From what i have read you need to follow a very particular procedure when you set it to zero.

I know I read it here a while ago. How you go about doing it again?

 

[TexasMade]

I know I read it here a while ago. How you go about doing it again?

Im all ears...I didn't do anything particular. Maybe Rob101 could shed some light. I know he's had some Schmidts

 

[jaycoux]

Im all ears...I didn't do anything particular. Maybe Rob101 could shed some light. I know he's had some Schmidts

The trick was to push down and turn the turret back to zero. Otherwise it will not adjust properly. That info is not in the instructions.

 

[Grubbworm]

I tourqe my ring screws to 25 and tourqe cross bolt to 75 right or wrong my Schmidt & Bender stays spot on I can take it off my Defiance action and put it back on and have very little deviation must be lucky

 

[NoLegs24]

The trick was to push down and turn the turret back to zero. Otherwise it will not adjust properly. That info is not in the instructions.

Talked to Jerry from S&B USA today and said he only does that in case air gets trapped in turrets. But other than that there isn't a secret formula to setting your zero

 

[mikem4045]

Had similar problem with my gun. Thought my Nightforce was bad. Traced it back to the chassis it was mounted in. When checking scope for stock screw loose. Took completely apart and assembled gun. Now no problems. I was getting a shift of up to 2 moa at 100 yds. It was in a Mcrees chassis.

 

[g3ninfinite]

I thought badger torque spec was 65in/lbs

 

[Diablo]

15 in/lb and 65 in/lb

Just happened to have Badger P/N 306-75 for 1.0" USMC M40A3 rings sitting on desk right now

 

[Evo6]

I had a S&B 5-25 (DT turret) that started shifting zero 3 months after I bought it. I loved the optics but sent it back to the vendor, they can be great scopes but seem to need more TLC than NF, Bushie or Vortex.

 

[djarecke]

I've sent back two of my Schmidts (out of the 3 that I own). The last one was a brand new 5-25 with locking turrets and would not hold the zero either. Neither of the other two Schmidts did that (on either of my GAP rifles) so I sent it back to the vendor.

Schmidt Bender USA in Virginia was very quick in their response, but Schmidt Bender USA sales has been non-existent in their response to the issue.

I've had $800 scopes that didn't do this, and apparently they do require more TLC than other scopes. I've owned everything else other than Niteforce, and frankly I'm thinking of trying out the new Beast. My hope was to keep everything the same in the gun cabinet, but what's the point? Even though the Schmidt has great glass, it's disappointing when a $4000 has issues.

 

[cramey74]

Since all these S&B's are junk, I think they should be offered for sale at a really deep discount. If you have one, and you want to sell it at real good rate, PM me.

Chris R

 

[Evo6]

They are not junk but the failure rate is higher than I am personally comfortable with. I just got a GenII Razor yesterday and my initial impression is it's made like an MRAP, hopefully it's optics are as good as everyone is saying and I won't have to pine for another S&B.

 

[NoLegs24]

Since all these S&B's are junk, I think they should be offered for sale at a really deep discount. If you have one, and you want to sell it at real good rate, PM me.

Chris R

Hell Yeah!!

 

[Irokcrawl]

I've sent back two of my Schmidts (out of the 3 that I own). The last one was a brand new 5-25 with locking turrets and would not hold the zero either. Neither of the other two Schmidts did that (on either of my GAP rifles) so I sent it back to the vendor.

Schmidt Bender USA in Virginia was very quick in their response, but Schmidt Bender USA sales has been non-existent in their response to the issue.

I've had $800 scopes that didn't do this, and apparently they do require more TLC than other scopes. I've owned everything else other than Niteforce, and frankly I'm thinking of trying out the new Beast. My hope was to keep everything the same in the gun cabinet, but what's the point? Even though the Schmidt has great glass, it's disappointing when a $4000 has issues.

The S&B with MTC turrets do have a known issue of POI changing just from a small bump. I watched 10 out of 14 get sent back to be repaired. Defiantly not the old S&B quality and also a 2 year warranty. I own both S&B and the NF beast and honestly thing the beast is a superior optic; Especially once they get the 1/10 increment turret models released. The lever doesn't bother me but for some it may. I primarily use holds so I just lock the turret and run with it.

 

[sandwarrior]

http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a574/connelyXtreme/20141006_084847_zpshb5hos6f.jpg


Ok hiders. I have a problem of some sort and need help figuring it out. My zero will not stay dead on. The left target bottom 5 shots demonstrates one week ago before I went to match. I had to bring it up .2 and hit center...which made me question what was going on. The right target demonstrates todays 5 shots. Same clothing. It was .4 high. Ive been chasing a zero since I got this scope and ring set up and believe that to be the problem since I don't have this problem on my other precision rigs. Any suggestions?

6.5x47 Surgeon
Schmidt and Bender 5x25
Badger Ordnance rings.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but I think it's a "you, behind the scope problem on different days." Your groups look awesome, even if different poi over a week. If it was a scope or a ring problem it would seem to me the 'shifting' would be happening while you are shooting a group. Leastways that's what happens when I have shifting problems and I find something loose. Not afterwords, over a week of sitting in the gun safe.

It's simple things like, how much breakfast did you eat? Did you drink the night before one or the other group? Were you shooting from the same bench? Were you as comfortable this time as last? A new optic that is as good of glass as a Schmidt & Bender might lull you into a sense of confidence and your parallax is different. All in all that is the first place I would look. With your eyes closed, check, re-check, check again, cheek weld. Good glass will fool you sometimes.

Also, you mention the first group was before a comp. Was it possible the scope took a knock during the comp? You were hitting close enough so didn't take issue with it during the comp?


Just some things to think about. IMO, when you get settled in on that scope and rig combo, you'll be doing great.

 

[TexasMade]

Found my issue. Even though the butler creeks are not touching the barrel and seem to have decent clearance. ..its what has been causing issues. Took them off and have tested for 3 days in a row with no caps and havent had a problem. Put BC back on and had issues. Funny how something so small can screw you.

 

[Evo6]

Wierd

 

[sandwarrior]

Found my issue. Even though the butler creeks are not touching the barrel and seem to have decent clearance. ..its what has been causing issues. Took them off and have tested for 3 days in a row with no caps and havent had a problem. Put BC back on and had issues. Funny how something so small can screw you.

I take back everything I said....

 

[Jerry R]

Found my issue. Even though the butler creeks are not touching the barrel and seem to have decent clearance. ..its what has been causing issues. Took them off and have tested for 3 days in a row with no caps and havent had a problem. Put BC back on and had issues. Funny how something so small can screw you.

Believe me, I see this more often than not. The difference here is that the shooter had enough integrity to admit that the problem was another variable aside from the scope after it was discovered. He could have sent it in for service and we would have found nothing wrong with it. Got it back and shot it under the same conditions and got the same negative results. Not a happy camper at that point and most likely ready to toss the scope or send it back in to be reevaluated.

Glad you figured it out TexasMade. Enjoy your optic.

 

[TRAAV]

How exactly were the caps causing the problem?

 

[TexasMade]

The caps when the gun was fired were apparently touching the barrel. I saw a little black mark on the barrel where the cap had been rubbing it. The clearance with the caps I thought was enough but apparently not. Ill keep this in mind next time I mount a scope. Thanks Jerry!

 

[dvdt]

Wow, amazing. Thanks for posting up. Glad the problem is solved!

 

[TRAAV]

Sorry I don't buy it. I can buy that something coming in contact with your barrel makes your groups open up but not change your zero from one day to another.

 

[Evo6]

I was thinking the same thing, but if it's shooting, don't mess with it!

 

[Irokcrawl]

I've seen stranger things happen. I've watched people bring ammo directly from the house to the range and zero and then come out the next day with ammo they had sat in a hot car all day and it make the poi change and blow primers and they had no clue why. Weird stuff happens but I personally will not run a S&B with the MTC. I own the older non mtc versions and I'm. Very happy with them but I've seen way to may mtc versions act up.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Taking delivery on my first S&B 5-25 with MTC turrets next week. I will be leaving the Butler Creeks off!! Thanks for posting this!

-VB

 

[TexasMade]

Taking delivery on my first S&B 5-25 with MTC turrets next week. I will be leaving the Butler Creeks off!! Thanks for posting this!

-VB

I would just make sure you have rings high enough for real good clearance! If you think it MIGHT be too low then you may experiment.

 

[vonbalkenbush]

I would just make sure you have rings high enough for real good clearance! If you think it MIGHT be too low then you may experiment.

I'll make sure there's enough clearance! Thanks!