School me on process of buying a new gun out of state and bringing it into California

[fastrider777]

Waiting on the call from a well know gunsmith to let me know that my new gun is ready to ship to California.

I started checking around to see what kind of extra fees I was going to encounter.

FFL transfer fees run $75 to $100 per gun.

$25 for the DROS.

Perfectly understandable.

They want to charge CA Tax rates because the gunsmith is out of state. I believe this is something new because of all the interstate business over the internet that was going untaxed for years. That sucks, and not sure if there is anything I can do about that considering I bought it over the phone.

Worse thing is the EXTORTION MONEY they want paid if the firearm is over $1000.00. If you can believe it, they want 5% of the price of the gun.
FOR NOTHING......... They didn't do anything for a free 5% payday.


Extortion.......$177.55
FFL Fees........$100.00
DROS............$25.00
State Tax.......$310.71

Total.............$613.26

Doesn't the transfer fees take care of accepting the delivery and storing the gun for ten day waiting period?
How do I know the sales tax collected actually goes to pay the sales tax?
I'm really upset that on top of all this is the extortion fee. Its not my fault I'm bound by law to have to transfer this gun through your store, if you had one in stock, I would have bought it from them.

Please let me know if this is normal practice, or if you know of a place the the Bay Area that might seem a little more legit.

Thanks,

fastrider777

 

[proneshooter]

Find some other dealer, you are getting bent over badly.

I would pay a reasonable ($75 - 100 is not reasonable) dealer transfer fee and the DROS fee. Anything else, the dealer can KMA.

 

[JBNj]

75-100 transfer fee? Holy #%{€!!

Is the extortion money state mandatory or specific to the dealer? I'd look for a different dealer from the sounds of it for A reasonable transfer fee. Some places like to rip people off on the transfer fee cause they aren't making money on the sale. Look for other places to compare.

List of ffl in California in gunbroker network.
Search the FFL Holder Network at GunBroker.com

 

[krw]

If you pd your well known gunsmith for your rifle, it is yours. FFL gets pd for the transfer only, He is not selling you the rifle. I pay $20 for FFL transfers.

 

[fastrider777]

The $100.00 transfer fee is the common price here in The Bay Area. ($25 was the norm until things went crazy and the rush was on.)
Yes, I assumed the extortion money was just the LGS gouging me.

Between LGS closing up, or not willing to do FFL's, super shady looking places that I still can't believe are actually trying to operate as a gun store, I'm finding trust to be something that is hard to find around here.

Thanks for the listing link. I had used it already. Out of the top 10 listed for my zip code, One is closing, one said they won't FFL, several are personal residences. Many don't want to talk terms over the phone.

All the charm of living in California.

I might have better luck in the Central Valley. Hour and a half each way.

 

[proneshooter]

JFC as if there weren't enough reasons to avoid CA.......

 

[dondick]

I pay $20-$25 for FFL transfer. You gotta be shitin me on an extortion charge.

 

[David S]

I might have better luck in the Central Valley. Hour and a half each way.

I was just going to suggest that. The farther away from the coast you get, the less neurotic California seems to be. Were I in your shoes (which I confessedly am not), I'd willingly drive a lot more than half an hour each way both to avoid all this garbage you're facing and to avoid giving my money to people who I didn't think deserved it. One almost wonders just whose property the rifle is understood to be...

You have my sympathy.

-David

 

[tag_heuer]

You don't have to tell them how much you paid for the gun. That's none of their business. You paid $1 for it and they can tax u based on that.

 

[jbjh]

Check CalGuns for a list of FFLs that are in the state. My local LGS charges $100 to transfer a gun from out of state (they are allowed to charge fee because they are losing a sale). I've found more than a few individuals who will do the transfer for $25


Sent from 80ms in the future
Much peace
Jimmy

 

[Sean the Nailer]

does this help?

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...fls-except-non-ffls-transfer.html#post2533443

 

[BALLISTIC]

Sadly, this is the truth now in CA. Any 'NEW' firearms coming into the state must pay sales tax on the invoice to the FFL dealer, and yes $100 for a DROS is standard in CA.

 

[Hairball]

Well, don't listen to this advise "You don't have to tell them how much you paid for the gun" as that is a good way to get into trouble when they get audited and you claim you paid 5 bucks for 3k rifle. If you are looking for the cheapest way to go, go to any of your local pawn shops and they will do FFL transfers for almost half of what your local gun shop will do them for as most pawn shops have FFL's. Any shop is going to look at the sales receipt and charge sales tax accordingly, if they don't, I would find another place as they are shady and I would not trust leaving a high end item there. Charging tax is nothing new and has been done for years, I had to pay over 400 bucks when I had a Barrett delivered from out of state 6 years ago. In addition to the receipt, the DOJ letter with approval number will also need to be included in the paperwork.

"As of July 1, 2008, California Penal Code Section 12072(f)(1) prohibits all Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), other than Type 03 or 06 FFLs, from shipping firearms to an FFL in California unless, prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearms obtains a verification approval number from the California Department of Justice (CADOJ) Bureau of Firearms".

If the dealer sends stuff to CA regularly, they will have one on file and they just print the form and add it in the paperwork. On a side note, everything is expensive out here and transferring a firearm is no different.

Most just charge transfer fee, DROS, and sales tax if purchased out of state. I have seen some out of state retailers collect sales tax on their end but its rare.

 

[Logansar]

Start by moving to Texas...

 

[rookie101]

I used to live in Santa Cruz. If you are willing to drive south to Watsonville, Markleys gun shop was always pretty reasonable. Might be worth a phone call.

 

[fastrider777]

Sadly, this is the truth now in CA. Any 'NEW' firearms coming into the state must pay sales tax on the invoice to the FFL dealer, and yes $100 for a DROS is standard in CA.

They passed a law that pretty much says if you buy something, anything from an online vendor and it ships to California, you have to pay sales tax. They expect you to pay it out of the goodness of your heart. I work for a general contractor, if we buy something online for a homeowner, we are required to pay the sales tax.

I built a motorcycle, ground up. I was required to produce enough receipts from the build, to prove I built the bike. Most were online vendors and I got raped at the DMV.

I know what is in front of me. I don't want to get the "extortion fee."

 

[fastrider777]

Well, don't listen to this advise "You don't have to tell them how much you paid for the gun" as that is a good way to get into trouble when they get audited and you claim you paid 5 bucks for 3k rifle. If you are looking for the cheapest way to go, go to any of your local pawn shops and they will do FFL transfers for almost half of what your local gun shop will do them for as most pawn shops have FFL's. Any shop is going to look at the sales receipt and charge sales tax accordingly, if they don't, I would find another place as they are shady and I would not trust leaving a high end item there. Charging tax is nothing new and has been done for years, I had to pay over 400 bucks when I had a Barrett delivered from out of state 6 years ago. In addition to the receipt, the DOJ letter with approval number will also need to be included in the paperwork.

"As of July 1, 2008, California Penal Code Section 12072(f)(1) prohibits all Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), other than Type 03 or 06 FFLs, from shipping firearms to an FFL in California unless, prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearms obtains a verification approval number from the California Department of Justice (CADOJ) Bureau of Firearms".

If the dealer sends stuff to CA regularly, they will have one on file and they just print the form and add it in the paperwork. On a side note, everything is expensive out here and transferring a firearm is no different.

Most just charge transfer fee, DROS, and sales tax if purchased out of state. I have seen some out of state retailers collect sales tax on their end but its rare.

I realize I'm going to pay fees and taxes.

I have a total trust issue leaving a gun like this for 10 days with someone who is the slight bit shady.

I can pay my own taxes. I will ask to see what sort of documentation the LGS has that tells me they are actually paying the taxes they collect, and not just skimming the money for themselves.

There are plenty of FFL's that list they only collect a small fee for transfer and don't collect taxes or extra fees.

Finding one of those that I feel comfortable with having something delivered there is another thing.

 

[fastrider777]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

[fastrider777]

By the way, it was a gift from my Dad who lives in Washington state?

Do they collect taxes and fees from them too?

 

[proneshooter]

I too would be tempted to drive/fly to wherever the rifle is and bring it back myself. If for no other reason to give the state of California a big FU.

 

[Hairball]

If its a gift you don't pay sales tax but you will have to pay the others unless you bring the rifle in yourself in which case, you still will incur some fees as all rifles are now required to be registered in CA. I am a business owner and we collect taxes and must pay these taxes (in our case every month) to the FTB. If its a reputable shop they are not going to "pocket" the fees and if you are that concerned about them, pay with a credit card so there is a record through merchant services. Most shops are not going to take the chance of losing their business or incurring serious fines in order to save a few bucks here and there as every receipt of transaction is required to be maintained. FFL's must collect sales tax if the item is transferred in and was not collected at the time of original sale (the one you bought it from). If they are making a claim that they are not collecting sales tax, they are not only wrong for not doing so, they are stupid for making it public knowledge. These types of dealers have no idea what they are doing and its just a matter of time before they lose their business.

 

[fastrider777]

I too would be tempted to drive/fly to wherever the rifle is and bring it back myself. If for no other reason to give the state of California a big FU.

I didn't think you could buy a gun in a state you are not living in? Thought there was the whole residency gig? If Not, I've got plenty of time, I'll go pick it up there.

I didn't think that was an option.

 

[David S]

I didn't think you could buy a gun in a state you are not living in? Thought there was the whole residency gig? If Not, I've got plenty of time, I'll go pick it up there.

I didn't think that was an option.

Neither did I at first, but now I'm not so sure. From the ATF's website, it looks like the permissiblity of doing that depends on the laws specific to the two states that would be involved [I inserted the bolding]:

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]​

https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons#gca-unlicensed-acquire

There are some actual legal eagles here on the Hide who surely would be better able to advise you on these matters; if one of them chimes in, take notes.

Yours,

David

What a PITA that you would be made to go through all these calisthenics just to take possession of your own damned rifle without needing a second mortgage...

 

[fastrider777]

Neither did I at first, but now I'm not so sure. From the ATF's website, it looks like the permissiblity of doing that depends on the laws specific to the two states that would be involved [I inserted the bolding]:

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]​

https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons#gca-unlicensed-acquire

There are some actual legal eagles here on the Hide who surely would be better able to advise you on these matters; if one of them chimes in, take notes.

Yours,

David

What a PITA that you would be made to go through all these calisthenics just to take possession of your own damned rifle without needing a second mortgage...

I guess it couldn't hurt to ask the shop building the rifle what the restrictions are in their state.

Find out if it is possible and what kind of waiting period is involved.

 

[fastrider777]

Maybe I'm making this out to be more than it is.

I can't be the first guy in California on this forum to buy a rifle from an out of state gunsmith.

I know the tax law might be something new, as the higher FFL fees. The extortion fees are just greed.

That's the part that bugs me the most.

 

[BALLISTIC]

Please explain the 'extortion fee', what does the FFL you are transferring at actually calling this fee? Other than DROS, dealer fee for DROS, and sales tax, there should be nothing else. If so, find another dealer, there are plenty in CA.

 

[Hairball]

No idea what the "extortion fee" is that you are describing. You can buy from any state as long as you follow CA rules of bringing it back here as it needs to be a FFL or non-FFL out of state to an in-state FFL transfer. In other words, you are not legally allowed to go to another state, purchase a firearm, then drive it back into CA. Are there several loop holes and grey areas, yes but not for discussion here. If you are up for more reading, go over to calguns.net and read to your hearts content on out of state transfers. I make several purchases off of gun broker and other sites all the time from out-of-state dealers. You send them the money and they send the firearm to your local FFL. You go down and do the paperwork, pay the fees, wait the 10 days and its yours.

 

[Kiba]

Also not sure what the extortion fee is unless he's speaking about the sometimes ridiculous fees certain FFLs charge to receive a firearm that you didn't purchase from them but are having shipped to them.

For example, my favorite local FFL charges $25 on top of the $35 DROS fee for firearms that you purchase elsewhere (Buds, Gunbroker, off a forum, etc) and have shipped to him because of the extra paperwork involved.

On the other hand, a certain shop here in town charges $350 or 10% of the value of the firearm, whichever is greater, for their "fees" when you buy a rifle out of state and have shipped to them. That's above and beyond the $35 DROS fee. Needless to say that shop does NOT get my business.

If an out of state FFL is shipping a firearm to CA they must be enrolled in the CFLC system and submit a little information to the CA DOJ prior to shipment (senders FFL info, receiving FFL info, serial number of the firearm, etc.) The system is quick & easy but many FFLs won't sign up or use it and thus they cannot ship to CA.

It is true that the CA DOJ and the FTB sent notices to FFLs early this year to let them know they are supposed to be collecting CA sales tax for the full purchase price of the firearm at the time you do the DROS. By the letter of the law if you have a $3000 rifle shipped from say Buds to your FFL in CA, at the time of DROS the FFL is supposed to collect CA state tax on the full $3000 purchase price of the rifle. However, many FFLs will ignore the invoice and simply ask "so what did you pay for it?" and then they will charge you tax based off the declared purchase price.

Obviously, if it's a semi auto centerfire rifle don't run afoul of SB-23 and if it's a handgun it needs to be on the safety roster otherwise you'll have to SSE it. Also remember if it's an SSE handgun it must be shipped from an FFL-- a private party cannot ship an SSE handgun to an FFL. If a private party is shipping the firearm to your chosen CA FFL, double check with your FFL that they are willing to receive a shipment from a non-FFL. Some dealers won't.

After that, usual deal... complete the DROS, then the 240 hour waiting period, and then come back and pick it up.

 

[RSCOT]

You said above that this is a "gift" from your father in Washington. If that is the case and he paid for the firearm, then have it shipped to him, fill this form out, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf , pay the $19 dollars, then have your father ship to you with No dealer involvement. More info here: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

 

[komishe]

I almost shit myself when my Surgeon Scalpel made it to my FFL.
On top of transfer and tax, he said, "they" want me to charge you %10 of the value of the gun. I never asked who "they" were but I assume it's perfectly legal to charge middleman fees.

We're friends so he ended up charging me $0 because he felt bad enough about sales tax on $5k.
I kicked him a few bricks of .22lr for being a gentleman since he'd been having a heckuva time finding it for a fair price.

I'd look into the givety gifting RSCOT posted or find a shop that's not totally fucking greedy. Pacific Outfitters in Ukiah might treat you decently.

Ask on CalGuns. They are good for a few things other than funny pictures of AR's with too many handles and backwards parts

 

[fastrider777]

Please explain the 'extortion fee', what does the FFL you are transferring at actually calling this fee? Other than DROS, dealer fee for DROS, and sales tax, there should be nothing else. If so, find another dealer, there are plenty in CA.

I think a few posts sort of explain the "extortion fee" (basically the name I have given this fee.)

It seems to me that the FFL should be making enough money from the $100 FFL transfer fee to cover the 2 minutes it takes to accept a delivery from UPs, load the gun into the storage safe and hold it for the 10 day waiting period.

But in the next sentence, tell you that if the rifle costs more than $1K, they will feel bound to collect an additional 5% of the cost of the rifle.

To me, that is free money to them. No reason in the world they should get that money for doing nothing. It's not like I didn't buy the exact version of this custom rifle that was hanging from their wall. Granted, the place has plenty of selection. It isn't "Brand X" that I am bringing in.

I appreciate everyone's opinions, suggestions and input.

I just need to find the place I'm most comfortable with, suck it up on the sales tax and get it done.

The word I got on Friday was that I am a month away from delivery. 11 months waiting time, just over the 10 months originally quoted.

Just happy to see the light at the end of the tunnel. There was a point early in the waiting period that California was going to ban these rifles. But that was veto'd.

I just want to get it in my hands and be done with all this crap.

 

[fastrider777]

You said above that this is a "gift" from your father in Washington. If that is the case and he paid for the firearm, then have it shipped to him, fill this form out, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf , pay the $19 dollars, then have your father ship to you with No dealer involvement. More info here: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

More of a hypothetical off the cuff "Yeah, Yeah.... he gave it to me... sort of thing"

Throwing out the fact that two other states are involved, what makes you think the taxes haven't been paid in Washington State, why do I have to pay them again here?

No truth to the gift thing, just another point of view.

 

[JRM83]

I don't know how it is in California, but I know in the free states it's not uncommon for an area to have few FFL holders who operate out of their homes and do transfers for very reasonable fees. Generally good people once you get to know them. Yes, you might not be able to ring them up and get them on the phone whenever you want, but as an FFL holder they are required to maintain the same records and safekeeping procedures that a full scale gun store does. Finding a good FFL is like finding a good doctor, dentist, or mechanic. Once you have one, NEVER LET THEM GO.

 

[RSCOT]

I never said or alluded to taxes not being paid I just asked. If your father made the purchase and it is in his possession then this is how it would work. There is nothing hypothetical and it is not just a point of view. I have done this more than once with handguns and long guns with my son who lives in another state! You need to find a different ffl. You should only be paying the customary private party and dros fees.

Example of interstate intrafamilial transfer
Suppose you live in California, and your grandparent lives in Texas. Your grandparent wants to give you a pistol as a gift.
Since your grandparent is yet living, this transfer is not an inheritance.
Because it is interstate, Texas to California, the pistol must go to a CA FFL - the receiver may not take possession until the transfer has occurred at the CA FFL - so
CALL the FFL ahead of time to see if he understands interstate intrafamilial transfer; any FFL who suggests you do not need his services for an interstate intrafamilial transfer does NOT understand it.
ASK about the fees; there are no regulations limiting the transfer fees on interstate transfer.
ASK whether the FFL will accept a shipment from a non-licensed person; that is legal, but some have a business practice to accept only from other licensed persons.
Handguns transferred via intrafamilial transfer are NOT subject to the Roster.
Handguns should be accompanied by a letter of gift, specifying giver's name and relationship (e.g. John Smith, Grandfather), the handgun (e.g. Glock 17 9mm pistol, serial 12345), and the receiver's name (e.g. Little Jimmy Smith).
Since the transfer must use a CA FFL, the ordinary rules for an FFL transfer must be followed, including background check and 10-day wait. The receiver should be at least 18 years old for a long gun, 21 for a handgun; if a handgun, the receiver must also have a Handgun Safety Certificate.
The FFL should use the DROS "Curio/Relic/Exempt" process, and add a comment "27870PC intrafamily transfer".

 

[fastrider777]

I never said or alluded to taxes not being paid I just asked. If your father made the purchase and it is in his possession then this is how it would work. There is nothing hypothetical and it is not just a point of view. I have done this more than once with handguns and long guns with my son who lives in another state! You need to find a different ffl. You should only be paying the customary private party and dros fees.

Example of interstate intrafamilial transfer
Suppose you live in California, and your grandparent lives in Texas. Your grandparent wants to give you a pistol as a gift.
Since your grandparent is yet living, this transfer is not an inheritance.
Because it is interstate, Texas to California, the pistol must go to a CA FFL - the receiver may not take possession until the transfer has occurred at the CA FFL - so
CALL the FFL ahead of time to see if he understands interstate intrafamilial transfer; any FFL who suggests you do not need his services for an interstate intrafamilial transfer does NOT understand it.
ASK about the fees; there are no regulations limiting the transfer fees on interstate transfer.
ASK whether the FFL will accept a shipment from a non-licensed person; that is legal, but some have a business practice to accept only from other licensed persons.
Handguns transferred via intrafamilial transfer are NOT subject to the Roster.
Handguns should be accompanied by a letter of gift, specifying giver's name and relationship (e.g. John Smith, Grandfather), the handgun (e.g. Glock 17 9mm pistol, serial 12345), and the receiver's name (e.g. Little Jimmy Smith).
Since the transfer must use a CA FFL, the ordinary rules for an FFL transfer must be followed, including background check and 10-day wait. The receiver should be at least 18 years old for a long gun, 21 for a handgun; if a handgun, the receiver must also have a Handgun Safety Certificate.
The FFL should use the DROS "Curio/Relic/Exempt" process, and add a comment "27870PC intrafamily transfer".

This is poor grammar and communication skills on my part. Talking in the wrong tense, improper pronouns and whatever else my English teacher could dock me for.


Honestly, it's not a gift. It's a hypothetical question to the incoming LGS, asking them the question, "IF it's a gift from my Dad, who lives in Washington, why do I have to pay taxes on it again?"

Certainly didn't mean it any way as to bring someone's comment or post into question.

The way I see this happening, the rifle will be packed in a case and boxed up. Upon taking delivery of the package, the FFL will open the box and case to inspect the rifle. I would think all of the gunsmith's paperwork and receipts/invoices would be right there for viewing.

Definitely wouldn't look like a gift.

Like I said, I'm making too much of a small thing.

I pay my taxes.

I will find a upstanding FFL and get this done.

Sorry for any confusion on my part.