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Sidearms & Scatterguns School me on Red Dots
- Thread starter Hoyt7mm
- Start date
So now that we are in summer, does anyone have issues with their glass fogging up when going from inside A/C to 100 degree outside temps? I bought my setup the day before I left for work and wont get to play with it for 3 weeks.
I haven't ever had fogging issues with any of my MRDS's. I went Friday and zeroed both at the outdoor range temps around 100-101 with a heavy humidity as it had just rained. No issues.
About 3:50 into this video, he covers the question.
I’ve never been able to make my rmr fog up and have used it in every possible condition one could realistically think of it’s just not an issue like it is with sealed optics.
Lately it's been very hot and humid here in the midwest. My USPSA carry optics gun lives in the air conditioned gun room, goes in the bag, into the trunk, and out to the range 15 min away. I've never had the RMR on it fog up when I take the gun out of the bag at the range even though the ammo that was stored in the same location and rode in the same bag immediately develops condensation when taken out and opened at the same range.
The guy who cut mine isn’t doing any side work just did it as a favor for me. May I aske why you want the rear sight behind the rmr? Cause in that location it blocks some of your already small window
If the rear sight is tall enough to be usable, it's going to block the same area of the RMR's window regardless of whether it's behind or in front of the optic. Just how much gets blocked depends only on how tall the rear sight is.
It's physics. It can't be any other way.
Actually it can be... You can see the dot in your window at the bottom of the window
if the rear sight is in front of the rmr
If the rear sight is behind the rmr then you can’t see your dot down there.
It actually does make a difference in acquiring your dot.
Also because your brain combines both your right and left eye image you will see the dot overlaying the target even if the rear sight is blocking the target.
Bendon aiming concept.
OK I see what you're saying. Yours is the first reasoning backed up by optical/visual facts that I've ever heard for putting the rear sight in front of the optic. Everything else I've heard is just "because I say it works better".
PS, it's Bindon aiming concept. Named after Glynn Bindon, the guy who proposed it for use with ACOGs and founder of Trijicon.
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Some other advantages of the rear sight up front are:
1. It deflects some debris and burnt power residue from hitting or coating the optic.
2. During one-handed clearing exercises, you are putting pressure against the iron sight and not your expensive optic.
1. It deflects some debris and burnt power residue from hitting or coating the optic.
2. During one-handed clearing exercises, you are putting pressure against the iron sight and not your expensive optic.
I'll buy #1
#2 is a maybe. The optic still is taller than the rear sight, so it's reasonable to assume that the optic will be the first thing that catches on whatever solid object you're using to rack the slide.
#2 is not an issue if you buy an optic that passes Aaron Cowan's testing. As much as I don't like to use youtube personalities to prove a point, Cowan is a pretty serious guy that at least has a method for testing pistol-mounted optics that is a) pretty thorough and b) done the same way every time.
That may be the case if you have a super tall rear sight but with the way mine is setup it’s as low as possible so it would be almost impossible to rack the slide off the iron sights..
I used the lowest rear sight I could get that allowed me to still see the bottom of the notch then we actually milled the factory front sight down to match up with my intended zero.
We did this by milling the optic cut then installing the optic zeroed the red dot then went back to the mill and put the slide in the vice and slowly milled down the front till everything lined up perfect.
I have a 100 yard zero on my red dot and iron sights. This works out to about a 12 yard zero on the first part of the curve. I find this a really good balance in case you do need to take far shots.
I'm amazed he was able to get the slide milled down that far. Awesome.
I agree on Aaron. He's who I make my decisions off of. Keep in mind, he did mention once or twice about having irons forward would be another barrier if he had to manipulate the slide off an object.
When I send my Glock 19 MOS off to agency for their AOS system, I'm going to try irons forward for the first time.
Having the dot that low also helps keep your draw stroke much closer to that of your irons only guns.
I shoot open and limited often in the same match and switch guns back and forth and it doesn’t bother me at all.
If you have a super high red dot like most of the open guns then it throws you off going back and forth.
As you can see my open gun is still a super practical pistol. I run factory ammo through it and out of over 50 thousand rds so far I’ve had one malfunction of any kind and it was fixed by a quick rack of the slide..
Its actually had less malfunctions then the glocks running in the same conditions.
@JeremyV
Honestly, I have no articulable reason for going irons behind optic. I’d have to try it out before going irons forward though to see which I prefer. For now, I’ll keep with what I know I like and put them to the rear.
Your thoughts on it though do make me consider, perhaps if I can try someone’s out before sending mine off.
Tell your friend he could have a side business milling stuff that nicely. I’d send my S2 to him.
Honestly, I have no articulable reason for going irons behind optic. I’d have to try it out before going irons forward though to see which I prefer. For now, I’ll keep with what I know I like and put them to the rear.
Your thoughts on it though do make me consider, perhaps if I can try someone’s out before sending mine off.
Tell your friend he could have a side business milling stuff that nicely. I’d send my S2 to him.
My comments regarding sight location are based on tens of housands of rounds of experience with Bill Rogers at his elite shooting school; post #9 shows the Glock Setup he recommends that I first starting using.
He outlines the advantages of his design here.
How low the optic can be installed is obviously firearm specific related to interference with any safety block mechanisms / extractor channels etc.
With a really low forward rear sight, the typical advantages won't be appreciated.
He outlines the advantages of his design here.
How low the optic can be installed is obviously firearm specific related to interference with any safety block mechanisms / extractor channels etc.
With a really low forward rear sight, the typical advantages won't be appreciated.
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The last point is complete fucking bullshit and shows a complete lack of understanding of how reflex sights are used and why the iron sights are there in the first place. It's two independent sighting systems. Forcing the dot to be on top of the front sight is dumb and a needless obstruction.
Yeah, I don't care if God himself said it. It's still bullshit.
BTW, #1 is also bullshit. I have just over 7K rounds through an RMR and not once have I had to clean even the slightest bit of powder residue from it. Dust, yes. Fingerprints, yes, water spots, yes. Powder fouling, no. And if spent cases come back and hit the glass, (hello Gen 4 Glocks) unfuck your pistol.
#2 is dubious at best. The fucking optic sits higher than the rear sight. Guess which one has a higher likelyhood of being the charging handle for the pistol.
#3 is true but not why they think so. Field of view is a concept that does not exist with reflex sights unless you're one of the tards who insists on seeing the entire world through that tiny glass instead of letting one's peripheral vision superimpose the dot on the target while your eyes see the dot as just another object at infinity. Now, the sight in front does not obscure the dot in some awkward positions, if that's what they meant.
He has a full time business making firearms parts and is over booked already so there isn’t enough profit in milling slides. As far as sights in front or behind here is a quick video of my setup
I also agree I have never got powder fouling on my rmr.
Maybe if your running a comp you would but I don’t see the iron sights blocking much of that anyway.
Also the charging thing is a bit of a miss in my book. I’ve never seen someone actually hit the rear sight vs the optic for charging. I’m sure if you were super careful you could do it but I think this is more an emergency thing and your probably going to be in a f-ing hurry.
Maybe if your running a comp you would but I don’t see the iron sights blocking much of that anyway.
Also the charging thing is a bit of a miss in my book. I’ve never seen someone actually hit the rear sight vs the optic for charging. I’m sure if you were super careful you could do it but I think this is more an emergency thing and your probably going to be in a f-ing hurry.
You're not wrong. Show me someone who complains that he's slower with a dot, especially on close targets, and I'll show you someone whose draw and index both suck and is using the sights to find the dot.
Nice video showing the front placement . First thing that jumps out to me is there appears to be less “distractions” while looking through the window at ALL points in the window. Yes I know I am not supposed to look at the dot but focus on the target, I still need to train more with this.
For now though, I’m going to stay with it behind the optic.
I agree with your comment about less distractions.
Only advantage I know to having it behind the optic is that you have a longer sight radius in Case you actually need your back ups but it’s definitely not a big advantage. I guess the other possible advantage is you don’t have to mill another spot for the sight so it could be cheaper?
What’s your reason for wanting to put them behind?
Only advantage I know to having it behind the optic is that you have a longer sight radius in Case you actually need your back ups but it’s definitely not a big advantage. I guess the other possible advantage is you don’t have to mill another spot for the sight so it could be cheaper?
What’s your reason for wanting to put them behind?
I agree with the aesthetics and I thought it was stupid to put them in front of the optic for a long time till I was about to get my slide milled
Has anyone removed their iron sights completely and went optic only? This is my first red dot setup on a pistol (Icant shoot it for another 2.5 weeks cause Im at work) and the first thing I noticed was having both the dot and the irons was honestly alot of shit to line up. Even though I guess I should kind of ignore the irons? But having all this shit on the slide kind of defeats the purpose of having a red dot.
The majority of us dont pile up irons on our rifles and throw a red dot in the middle.
The majority of us dont pile up irons on our rifles and throw a red dot in the middle.
Please tell me you're not trying to line up the iron sights then somehow float the dot over the front sight...……….
You are, aren't you?
IGNORE the iron sights. The dot is a self contained and completely independent aiming system.
In any case, if the sights on your gun are the original ones, they are too low to be visible through the optic when you have the pistol up in front of your face and you're looking straight ahead with an erect (not hunched over) head.
Even if you have sights tall enough to be usable as back up sights, they should be just peeking over the bottom edge of the optic's lens. Otherwise they are needlessly tall. Again they are backups if the optic dies. They are not to be used simultaneously with the optic.
I need to open a training shop..........
Hey smartass,
If you read my posts again I stated that this is my first red dot setup and that I havent even shot it yet and cant for another 2.5 weeks. I DO HAVE tall irons and will be shooting this pistol suppressed. So I have suppressor height sights. If you look at post #45 thats my post and pistol.
If you didnt read my post correct, then please dont open up a training shop.
@madppcs
You don’t really line anything up. With a RDS, your focus should be on the target. The dot should, with proper training, appear on the target. You’re in the wrong if you’re focusing in the dot. Ignore the dot, irons, optic housing, and focus on the target.
If you are just using the handgun for fun or comps, no irons are necessary. Maybe if you had a dedicated NV set up, I could see going optic only. For any type of use with the possibility of a two way range, you need to have back up irons, as batteries fail, screws come loose, etc.
Whenever you are able to shoot/dry fire, do a few hundred draw strokes and you’ll eventually have the dot magically appearing on target.
You don’t really line anything up. With a RDS, your focus should be on the target. The dot should, with proper training, appear on the target. You’re in the wrong if you’re focusing in the dot. Ignore the dot, irons, optic housing, and focus on the target.
If you are just using the handgun for fun or comps, no irons are necessary. Maybe if you had a dedicated NV set up, I could see going optic only. For any type of use with the possibility of a two way range, you need to have back up irons, as batteries fail, screws come loose, etc.
Whenever you are able to shoot/dry fire, do a few hundred draw strokes and you’ll eventually have the dot magically appearing on target.
I didn't misread your post. Maybe you should just refrain from speculating until you actually learn to use the thing........
Im not speculating. Im asking legit questions in a thread meant for learning about red dots on a pistol. If you have a problem answering questions about this topic, then please move on. We dont need smartass remarks. Plenty of others in this thread are actually helping people like me and its greatly appreciated.
Yeah you are. You're making ssumptions about how all this works and you don't have a clue. Let me list them for you:
But hey, you do you
Yes Im making assumptions AND ASKING QUESTIONS. Thats why Im here. Why are you even in this thread? Can we get this thread back on track for us that are really trying to learn about this?
Sorry about the drifting topic
Quick answers
#1 Yes it’s cluttered and it’s easier and faster without anything on your slide but the red dot.
#2 dots can fail so most people Sacrifice a clean window for back ups
#3 you never use both sights and red dot together
#4 you don’t focus on the dot you focus on the target.
If you watch the video I posted you will see how almost my whole window is clear cause of how I had the sights and red dot milled into the slide and having them forward of the red dot also makes it less distracting. I’m not a big fan of suppressor height sights and red dots because the do make a cluttered field of view..
Most competitive shooters don’t run irons at all because of this...
At Amazon and Euro Optic, RMR prices are still what they were last winter when I bought mine.
Damn near all the ones on Amazon are counterfeit, and europtic is on average $40 more than anyone else!
I honestly blame europtic for the price hike!
Bench
Depends on who the seller is
I didn't find that to be the case once I factored in shipping, taxes, etc.
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