Gunsmithing Scope level to a rifle

[EnXCess]

Hmmm, when did they start allowing "silencers" and wood "tables" in F-class?
3.4.1 Rifle Rests - (a) F-Class Open Rifle (F-O) - (2) The use of “tables i.e. a single flat solid surface extending under both front rest and rear bag is prohibited.

(a) Sound suppressors are not authorized for use in high power competition.

Yes, it is almost like I wasn't shooting F-Class at all, isn't it?

That "match lost due to shooting just outside the X" was most likely a bad wind call.

Yes, that is what everyone thinks, until they see a match lost on a dead-calm day, and they were behind the shooter and could see him plainly canting his rifle.

 

[pmclaine]

Isn't "the reticle" a reference?

 

[Dthomas3523]

Whether you use a sloped base or not has no effect upon the issue. You are still going to sight in at some fairly close distance, like 100 or 200 yards.

The problem comes when you then dial up to shoot at LR, like 1,000 yards, because of one very hard rule of physics -- if your reticle does not point at the center of your bore then with any amount you dial up (or hold over) your reticle's windage will be off. The bigger your scope-to-bore misalignment, the more your POI will be off from your POA. The more you dial up, the worse the error becomes.

The only way you can detect exactly how many MOA (or inches, or (feet ) you are off at, say, 1,000 yards is to shoot at that distance on a dead-calm day and measure the error on your target. But to do that you have to hold the rifle exactly the same way when shooting at 1,000 as you did when you sighted in at 100.

So let's assume Lowlight can somehow do what no other person on the planet can do, which is to hold his rifle exactly level every time. He can't, of course, but let's assume for a minute that he can. He is still going to have a windage error when he cranks up from 100 yards to a longer range because he did not bother to make his reticle point at the center of his bore before he started the sight-in process. He did even try to do that, because he did not understand the importance of doing that. Indeed, he scoffed at the whole necessity.

So he will end up like the hundreds of other people I see every year, who find that when they start to accumulate LR dope, it does not contain merely elevation dope, but also windage dope. That assumes, of course, that you can hold your rifle the same way every time. Most people cannot without a reference (level on scope, plumb object downrange, etc.), but if you do use a level (or other reference) it will become very clear to you very quickly. The drift left or right from scope-to-bore misalignment usually starts to show up by 300 yards. It is quite apparent by 500 yards.

However, people like Lowlight will not see it as much because their cants are all over the place. They are just as likely to correct their scope-to-bore misalignment by accidentally canting the opposite direction as they are to magnify it by canting the other way. To them windage at LR is all a confusing jumble of "spend-drift," "coriolis effect" and "wind, even on dead-calm days" such that they just don't worry about it. Their approach is, you just fire a round or two at the LR target, see where you hit and then correct for it. Voila! They hit the target and consider themselves LR shooting experts.

And that is a perfectly acceptable approach for games. They should not, however, ever use the word "sniper" because true snipers do not have the luxury of firing "sighter" rounds. They need to hit the target with the first shot.

And anyone trying to do that without both a scope mounted to point at the center of the bore and a level on their rifle is at an extreme handicap. Anyone who purposefully omits both is a fool.

Because you are not going to experience the "1-2 degree rifle cant" you asked about -- it is going to be more like 10-20 degrees, especially if you are on sloping ground with no reference to look at. And unless you got lucky and accidentally canted in the direction needed to offset your scope-to-bore misalignment, your dope is going to say things like, "500 yards: 8.5 moa up and 2.25 moa right." Keeping "dual dope" like that is certainly one way to do it -- but I thought we were concerned about "time," and having to adjust two turrets every time the distance changes instead of one doubles that.

I don't understand why you would spend "hours" getting your scope aligned with your bore. I told you how to do it in 15 minutes, 30 at most.

I understand completely that your rifle, when aligned with the bore and level does not "feel right." But the question is, do you want to "feel good" or do you want to shoot straight? The solution, if the hold does not "feel right," is not to employ a consistent cant and keep windage dope, it is to (a) get used to it, or (b) get a stock that is comfortable even when the rifle is held level.

Find your way out or it will be found for you.

 

[Lowlight]

No person can hold a rifle level,

that is all you need to know

 

[lash]

Whether you use a sloped base or not has no effect upon the issue. You are still going to sight in at some fairly close distance, like 100 or 200 yards.

The problem comes when you then dial up to shoot at LR, like 1,000 yards, because of one very hard rule of physics -- if your reticle does not point at the center of your bore then with any amount you dial up (or hold over) your reticle's windage will be off. The bigger your scope-to-bore misalignment, the more your POI will be off from your POA. The more you dial up, the worse the error becomes.

The only way you can detect exactly how many MOA (or inches, or (feet ) you are off at, say, 1,000 yards is to shoot at that distance on a dead-calm day and measure the error on your target. But to do that you have to hold the rifle exactly the same way when shooting at 1,000 as you did when you sighted in at 100.

So let's assume Lowlight can somehow do what no other person on the planet can do, which is to hold his rifle exactly level every time. He can't, of course, but let's assume for a minute that he can. He is still going to have a windage error when he cranks up from 100 yards to a longer range because he did not bother to make his reticle point at the center of his bore before he started the sight-in process. He did even try to do that, because he did not understand the importance of doing that. Indeed, he scoffed at the whole necessity.

So he will end up like the hundreds of other people I see every year, who find that when they start to accumulate LR dope, it does not contain merely elevation dope, but also windage dope. That assumes, of course, that you can hold your rifle the same way every time. Most people cannot without a reference (level on scope, plumb object downrange, etc.), but if you do use a level (or other reference) it will become very clear to you very quickly. The drift left or right from scope-to-bore misalignment usually starts to show up by 300 yards. It is quite apparent by 500 yards.

However, people like Lowlight will not see it as much because their cants are all over the place. They are just as likely to correct their scope-to-bore misalignment by accidentally canting the opposite direction as they are to magnify it by canting the other way. To them windage at LR is all a confusing jumble of "spend-drift," "coriolis effect" and "wind, even on dead-calm days" such that they just don't worry about it. Their approach is, you just fire a round or two at the LR target, see where you hit and then correct for it. Voila! They hit the target and consider themselves LR shooting experts.

And that is a perfectly acceptable approach for games. They should not, however, ever use the word "sniper" because true snipers do not have the luxury of firing "sighter" rounds. They need to hit the target with the first shot.

And anyone trying to do that without both a scope mounted to point at the center of the bore and a level on their rifle is at an extreme handicap. Anyone who purposefully omits both is a fool.

Because you are not going to experience the "1-2 degree rifle cant" you asked about -- it is going to be more like 10-20 degrees, especially if you are on sloping ground with no reference to look at. And unless you got lucky and accidentally canted in the direction needed to offset your scope-to-bore misalignment, your dope is going to say things like, "500 yards: 8.5 moa up and 2.25 moa right." Keeping "dual dope" like that is certainly one way to do it -- but I thought we were concerned about "time," and having to adjust two turrets every time the distance changes instead of one doubles that.

I don't understand why you would spend "hours" getting your scope aligned with your bore. I told you how to do it in 15 minutes, 30 at most.

I understand completely that your rifle, when aligned with the bore and level does not "feel right." But the question is, do you want to "feel good" or do you want to shoot straight? The solution, if the hold does not "feel right," is not to employ a consistent cant and keep windage dope, it is to (a) get used to it, or (b) get a stock that is comfortable even when the rifle is held level.

Wow! You just never quit, do you? So, since you seem to be a physics master and all, please show your calculations and diagrams that prove your “very hard rule of physics”. For all of the physics I’ve taken and used, I don’t recall any described as very hard rules. You must be pretty advanced.

So, show your work for us. Or is this just all a bunch of BS you use to amaze your students in class?

You continue to completely ignore the actual calculations and diagrams that Lowlight posted for your edification and continue to spout lengthy diatribes that contradict that information, but have yet to show your work. We're waiting!

By the way, the more you write, the deeper the hole you are digging and the more obvious it is that you have no idea what you are talking about. You are making it up as you go along.

 

[pmclaine]

If @EnXCess was an OUI defense lawyer.....

EnXCess , Esq. - "Officer before you asked my client to walk that straight line did you allow him to deploy his supplemental level or did you force him to rely solely upon those natural mechanisms contained within his skull to maintain equillibrium? Are you aware that despite millions of years of evolution these human "systems" are still in a state of "evolution" and that very fact suggests they are imperfect and faulty? Didn't you deprive my client, Otis Campbell, "advanced technology" that would have permitted him to maintain his relation to earth and successfully negotiate the Nine Step Walk and Turn? You sir disgust me depriving him of his Home Depot level."

 

[Lowlight]

That is awesome,

he would make Tom Hanks proud, if there is ever a Big 2, he can be the guy hired to repeat, I don’t Get it over and over

he won’t last long, I see an exit in his future

 

[chrome]

If @EnXCess was an OUI defense lawyer.....

EnXCess , Esq. - "Officer before you asked my client to walk that straight line did you allow him to deploy his supplemental level or did you force him to rely solely upon those natural mechanisms contained within his skull to maintain equillibrium? Are you aware that despite millions of years of evolution these human "systems" are still in a state of "evolution" and that very fact suggests they are imperfect and faulty? Didn't you deprive my client, Otis Campbell, "advanced technology" that would have permitted him to maintain his relation to earth and successfully negotiate the Nine step Walk and Turn? You sir disgust me depriving him of his Home Depot level."

^Most creative shit i've seen in a few weeks. Well played sir.

On a more positive note, great thread of information. Bookmarked this one!

 

[Lowlight]

I hope you bookmarked @EnXCess posts, he is the only one here who has a clue, about what we’re not sure, but he’ll tell you, the rest of us are crazy.

 

[chrome]

Already printed his posts out and laminated them for safe keeping.

 

[Schütze]

Has he ever seen SNIPER rifles with scopes mounted next to the bore centerline aka m1903 or k31/42-43 ?
Snipers never hit anything with them because they can’t by his great knowledge of physics, next he will tell me that they were just lucky lol.

 

[pmclaine]

Has he ever seen SNIPER rifles with scopes mounted next to the bore centerline aka m1903 or k31/42-43 ?
Snipers never hit anything with them because they can’t by his great knowledge of physics, next he will tell me that they were just lucky lol.

Dont mention the M1C/D this will be him.....

 

[Southern Custom]

Going back through all of @EnXCess posts so I can figure out what else I don’t know. Getting schooled today!! I guess everyone has just been damned lucky to hit anything past 1000 and it’s time to learn how it should actually be done.

 

[Secant]

He sounds a lot like some of the resident shooting experts on a couple hunting forums I've seen.

 

[Lowlight]

He sounds like he is a Big Box Store Gun Counter Worker, all his talking points are marketing claims LOL

he reads the website or the side of the box and takes the words as gospel

 

[Southern Custom]

 

[Zeroit]

Whether you use a sloped base or not has no effect upon the issue. You are still going to sight in at some fairly close distance, like 100 or 200 yards.

The problem comes when you then dial up to shoot at LR, like 1,000 yards, because of one very hard rule of physics -- if your reticle does not point at the center of your bore then with any amount you dial up (or hold over) your reticle's windage will be off. The bigger your scope-to-bore misalignment, the more your POI will be off from your POA. The more you dial up, the worse the error becomes.

The only way you can detect exactly how many MOA (or inches, or (feet ) you are off at, say, 1,000 yards is to shoot at that distance on a dead-calm day and measure the error on your target. But to do that you have to hold the rifle exactly the same way when shooting at 1,000 as you did when you sighted in at 100.

So let's assume Lowlight can somehow do what no other person on the planet can do, which is to hold his rifle exactly level every time. He can't, of course, but let's assume for a minute that he can. He is still going to have a windage error when he cranks up from 100 yards to a longer range because he did not bother to make his reticle point at the center of his bore before he started the sight-in process. He did even try to do that, because he did not understand the importance of doing that. Indeed, he scoffed at the whole necessity.

So he will end up like the hundreds of other people I see every year, who find that when they start to accumulate LR dope, it does not contain merely elevation dope, but also windage dope. That assumes, of course, that you can hold your rifle the same way every time. Most people cannot without a reference (level on scope, plumb object downrange, etc.), but if you do use a level (or other reference) it will become very clear to you very quickly. The drift left or right from scope-to-bore misalignment usually starts to show up by 300 yards. It is quite apparent by 500 yards.

However, people like Lowlight will not see it as much because their cants are all over the place. They are just as likely to correct their scope-to-bore misalignment by accidentally canting the opposite direction as they are to magnify it by canting the other way. To them windage at LR is all a confusing jumble of "spend-drift," "coriolis effect" and "wind, even on dead-calm days" such that they just don't worry about it. Their approach is, you just fire a round or two at the LR target, see where you hit and then correct for it. Voila! They hit the target and consider themselves LR shooting experts.

And that is a perfectly acceptable approach for games. They should not, however, ever use the word "sniper" because true snipers do not have the luxury of firing "sighter" rounds. They need to hit the target with the first shot.

And anyone trying to do that without both a scope mounted to point at the center of the bore and a level on their rifle is at an extreme handicap. Anyone who purposefully omits both is a fool.

Because you are not going to experience the "1-2 degree rifle cant" you asked about -- it is going to be more like 10-20 degrees, especially if you are on sloping ground with no reference to look at. And unless you got lucky and accidentally canted in the direction needed to offset your scope-to-bore misalignment, your dope is going to say things like, "500 yards: 8.5 moa up and 2.25 moa right." Keeping "dual dope" like that is certainly one way to do it -- but I thought we were concerned about "time," and having to adjust two turrets every time the distance changes instead of one doubles that.

I don't understand why you would spend "hours" getting your scope aligned with your bore. I told you how to do it in 15 minutes, 30 at most.

I understand completely that your rifle, when aligned with the bore and level does not "feel right." But the question is, do you want to "feel good" or do you want to shoot straight? The solution, if the hold does not "feel right," is not to employ a consistent cant and keep windage dope, it is to (a) get used to it, or (b) get a stock that is comfortable even when the rifle is held level.

[However, people like Lowlight.....]
Priceless!

 

[Long Range 338]

Whether you use a sloped base or not has no effect upon the issue. You are still going to sight in at some fairly close distance, like 100 or 200 yards.

The problem comes when you then dial up to shoot at LR, like 1,000 yards, because of one very hard rule of physics -- if your reticle does not point at the center of your bore then with any amount you dial up (or hold over) your reticle's windage will be off. The bigger your scope-to-bore misalignment, the more your POI will be off from your POA. The more you dial up, the worse the error becomes.

The only way you can detect exactly how many MOA (or inches, or (feet ) you are off at, say, 1,000 yards is to shoot at that distance on a dead-calm day and measure the error on your target. But to do that you have to hold the rifle exactly the same way when shooting at 1,000 as you did when you sighted in at 100.

So let's assume Lowlight can somehow do what no other person on the planet can do, which is to hold his rifle exactly level every time. He can't, of course, but let's assume for a minute that he can. He is still going to have a windage error when he cranks up from 100 yards to a longer range because he did not bother to make his reticle point at the center of his bore before he started the sight-in process. He did even try to do that, because he did not understand the importance of doing that. Indeed, he scoffed at the whole necessity.

So he will end up like the hundreds of other people I see every year, who find that when they start to accumulate LR dope, it does not contain merely elevation dope, but also windage dope. That assumes, of course, that you can hold your rifle the same way every time. Most people cannot without a reference (level on scope, plumb object downrange, etc.), but if you do use a level (or other reference) it will become very clear to you very quickly. The drift left or right from scope-to-bore misalignment usually starts to show up by 300 yards. It is quite apparent by 500 yards.

However, people like Lowlight will not see it as much because their cants are all over the place. They are just as likely to correct their scope-to-bore misalignment by accidentally canting the opposite direction as they are to magnify it by canting the other way. To them windage at LR is all a confusing jumble of "spend-drift," "coriolis effect" and "wind, even on dead-calm days" such that they just don't worry about it. Their approach is, you just fire a round or two at the LR target, see where you hit and then correct for it. Voila! They hit the target and consider themselves LR shooting experts.

And that is a perfectly acceptable approach for games. They should not, however, ever use the word "sniper" because true snipers do not have the luxury of firing "sighter" rounds. They need to hit the target with the first shot.

And anyone trying to do that without both a scope mounted to point at the center of the bore and a level on their rifle is at an extreme handicap. Anyone who purposefully omits both is a fool.

Because you are not going to experience the "1-2 degree rifle cant" you asked about -- it is going to be more like 10-20 degrees, especially if you are on sloping ground with no reference to look at. And unless you got lucky and accidentally canted in the direction needed to offset your scope-to-bore misalignment, your dope is going to say things like, "500 yards: 8.5 moa up and 2.25 moa right." Keeping "dual dope" like that is certainly one way to do it -- but I thought we were concerned about "time," and having to adjust two turrets every time the distance changes instead of one doubles that.

I don't understand why you would spend "hours" getting your scope aligned with your bore. I told you how to do it in 15 minutes, 30 at most.

I understand completely that your rifle, when aligned with the bore and level does not "feel right." But the question is, do you want to "feel good" or do you want to shoot straight? The solution, if the hold does not "feel right," is not to employ a consistent cant and keep windage dope, it is to (a) get used to it, or (b) get a stock that is comfortable even when the rifle is held level.

This sounds like it can only be settled with "hands on" application of your amazing skills... You need to provide reliable evidence to back up your claims or be put in your place....

Also of note is how you mention "snipers" have to be able to make first shot kills. The HMFIC has completed these courses, what experience do you have to make statements with such authority? Judging by your setup, Carlos Hathcock was as up to date...

 

[Zeroit]

What happened to Mr. Enxcess?
I was going to hang a picture of Lowlight in my gun room, thought I might see if he
Could rent me one of those levels.
I have construction levels , also a rather expensive laser level (self leveling) with tripod and receiver.
But one of those gun levels might be more appropriate probably more accurate.

 

[Petrov]

This is why we should teach vector based physics in high school.

 

[Secant]

This is why we should teach vector based physics in high school.

Most guys are quick to point out how they don't like 'math' or did so poorly in school.........unless it's related to firearms, then everybody is an astrophysicist

 

[1moaoff]

Yes, it is almost like I wasn't shooting F-Class at all, isn't it?



Yes, that is what everyone thinks, until they see a match lost on a dead-calm day, and they were behind the shooter and could see him plainly canting his rifle.

That's not quite that simple..... there are other questions to be asked.

If a match is lost because of 1 shot from a canted rifle how did they get that close to 1st place??

 

[1moaoff]

I had more thoughts but gave up....

 

[Clark]

I have the plumb bob on the end of my 50 foot deck and a benchrest set up.
But a lot of scopes do not focus at 50 feet.
So I have figured out which telephone pole features are plumb, 200 yards out.
The worst problem is some scope levels move when tightened.
I have a couple rifles to build, maybe I wll work out some scope level pinching.

 

[XTREM HTR16]

@lowlight thanks for the business card tip. Worked great!

 

[Gleedus]

Interesting thread lol. I'm a framer so the "dissucussion" on if you can see level or not absolutely you can! On the crew we will take bets on how far out of level something is by eyeballing. You can see less then a degree in the vertical and we find horizontal we are most accurate. But why then...
1- when I look through the scope do I always want to cant to the left. Im right handed and tend to tip the optic towards myself.
2- I have messed with rifle fit with little success
3- I have checked this against a plum bob
4- I want to cant the same way and amount prone or positional.

 

[Boatninja]

FWIW radio towers work good.......

 

[lash]

Interesting thread lol. I'm a framer so the "dissucussion" on if you can see level or not absolutely you can! On the crew we will take bets on how far out of level something is by eyeballing. You can see less then a degree in the vertical and we find horizontal we are most accurate. But why then...
1- when I look through the scope do I always want to cant to the left. Im right handed and tend to tip the optic towards myself.
2- I have messed with rifle fit with little success
3- I have checked this against a plum bob
4- I want to cant the same way and amount prone or positional.

It’s the rifle in your shoulder. Most people have a natural can’t induced by how the butt of the stock fits into their shoulder. The trick is to use a plumb bob or other vertical indicator to adjust/rotate the scope in your rings so that when you shoulder your rifle, the reticle no longer cants relative to horizontal.

The other option is to outfit every rifle with 3-way adjustable butt plates in order to properly make up for the natural fit of the rifle into your shoulder.

 

[Gleedus]

It’s the rifle in your shoulder. Most people have a natural can’t induced by how the butt of the stock fits into their shoulder. The trick is to use a plumb bob or other vertical indicator to adjust/rotate the scope in your rings so that when you shoulder your rifle, the reticle no longer cants relative to horizontal.

The other option is to outfit every rifle with 3-way adjustable butt plates in order to properly make up for the natural fit of the rifle into your shoulder.

I do have a adjustable butt plate. I can set that to make it work prone or on a flat surface well in positional but if I'm standing on a side hill then I'm back to doing it by looks not feel.
I do agree changing the butt pad cant has helped me to marry to the rifle consistently.
What I'm curious about is if having a tilted head will do it. Ive been messing with the cheek piece but have not been able to come to any conclusions.

 

[squishee]

I used to have a scope mounted level because the interwebs said it was cool and i needed one.
I used it (to cant) my rifle and missed my shots.

Frank said i didnt need a level ,Blasphemy thought I. .
Actually i think he called me an idiot back in the day cuz i asked about levels. ( which i tried to refute but only proved my ignorance)

I threw away the level so i didnt induce any cant
I now use a rock and string to level scope to my natural hold.

I now trust my eyes and inner level and hit things go figure.
Moral of story is a rock and string is all thats needed .

 

[cuz]

I don't mean to resurrect this thread, but it's just what I was looking for. I was starting to get stressed about setting up a new scope on a new rifle and wondering how many levels I'm going to need, and what kind...

Thanks to @Lowlight and a bunch of others for explaining that it's not really as complicated as I was making it out to be. Now I'm looking forward to getting the rings I ordered so I can give the "easy way" a try and see what happens.

 

[pmclaine]

Do you believe everything you read on the internet?

 

[Bluedog82]

I just got the arisaka tool, as I’m constantly moving stuff around. Makes it super simple, especially for use in scope mounts where the business card trick doesn’t work as well.