Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

#51
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gas guns are tougher to shoot than bolt guns. Generally bolt guns are ergonomically designed to shoot from the belly or bench, and most gas guns where designed as Infantry Combat weapons (at least at the initial design stage).

I shot a .25 group from a SR-25 EMC this morning with AB39 (Mk316 Mod0) - key a Group, I shot several .5 groups later, but I was the key factor. The same gun shot barely under 1" with M118LR (a decent lot of it, we have several lots of it that are 1.5 MOA ammo at best).

Position and Hold on a Gas gun are much more important, the best comments I have heard is you need to drive a gas gun, while you shoot a bolt gun... Many guns can do it, at the end of the day its the shooter.





</div></div>

You're speaking, of course, from your experience. My experience is the AR is easier to shoot well. It fits me better than a bolt gun with adjustable stock; and, I also think the importance for position consistency is independent of action type.
 
#52
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?



Boltgun or gasgun, doesn't matter. This is the REALITY:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1/4 MOA (@ 110 yds)

06-15-11SmallGroup1.jpg


Or 1/2 MOA

06-15-11AllGroups1.jpg


You be the judge.... same target. This is a Rorschach test for how one views groups. Most memories only remember the group happening in the middle or at least remember it happening a lot more than it did.
</div></div>

One time laminated "wallet" or "refrigerator" groups just show what happened one time.

This topic goes hand in hand with the question "If everyone on the internet shoots 1/2moa all day long, why the f'k aren't they winning matches and setting records?"
 
#53
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

i shoot 3 shot groups because i am cheap and am working on a new load . i was using Winchester primers but was having some issues so switched to wolf primers. 168gr hornady hpbt 44.6gr varget 2.8 COAL gave me a .3 moa at 100 yds out of a DPMS 308lr.

i1ljx0.jpg


i am not the best shooter so i would assume that some out there can get .25. granted a 5 shot group would probably push me up over .5
 
#55
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Man if they ever build a .25 moa semi auto I would all over it. While I can get boltguns to do .25moa fairly reg I have yet to get a 308 semi auto to run five, five shot groups anything close to .25 moa. And I have driven those fuckers enough to drive around the world

I cant wait until I get a M110 to really try out because my AR10Ts are lucky to hold .75 moa
 
#56
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I don't see why a semi-auto can't do 1/4" groups. I think the gunsmith's are starting to figure out how to make an AR-10ish type shoot really well. Take the following two groups I've shot with my Rock River LAR-8 Varmint 26". Both were shot at different times and both times I was prone with bipod and rear sand bag:

This first one is a 5 shot group at 110 yards, and includes first round cold bore shot:

DSC_0106.jpg


This one is a 10 shot group at 100 yards. It includes first cold bore shot. The 9th and 10th round opened the group up and I blame myself for getting too excited. It wasn't the guns fault:

a4c40ae18eb6a8f893c5a294.jpg
 
#57
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

some guy on here a couple of weeks ago had a Les Baer .308 target model for sale and posted the factory test targets (2) they were both one-hole groups, just a little bigger than bore diameter. Kind of wish I'd of bought it. Just sayin'...
 
#58
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I'm in agreement with the consistency comments. I don't have an AR, but I just got into long range shooting. I managed a couple groups at 100 yards with 0.3 MOA, but honestly speaking, I usually average 0.5 - 0.9 MOA. The best I ever did was 1" at 300 yards. But that was ONCE. Overall, I'd say I'm a 0.75-minute shooter with my rifle. Some days I'm a 1-minute shooter, others I'm a 1/3-minute shooter. Never a 1/4. But again, I'm not that skilled.
 
#60
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: judgedelta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">some guy on here a couple of weeks ago had a Les Baer .308 target model for sale and posted the factory test targets (2) they were both one-hole groups, just a little bigger than bore diameter. Kind of wish I'd of bought it. Just sayin'... </div></div>


I've got one of his .308 Monoliths. Agree with your comment above: test targets are basically one hole. Certainly shoots better than I do.
 
#61
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

One thing to keep in mind with semi-autos, you have many more variables. The gas system adds one huge variable to barrel/chamber pressure and will effect velocity spreads, thus at ranges beyond ~300m performance will decline more so than with a bolt gun. The gas system also adds a point of stress over a bolt gun, and disturbs barrel harmonics, thus disturbing potential accuracy beyond ~500m. Sure the effect is very minute, but there is an effect, and ANY effect will disturb potential accuracy, which will be magnified at range. Take a semi-auto that will shoot a '1/4' group at 100m and try shooting it at 800m, and your results will only disappoint you greatly when you will be very happy when you are barely able to hold a 1/2 group on a good day... Variables are what every precision shooter tries to eliminate, and semi-auto rifles only introduce more. Groups at 100m don't tell much, groups at 500m start to tell you about true performance in your rifle, as well as your skill. 300m is a whole lot better telling than 100m. At 100m wind is essentially negligible under 10kt@9/3 o'clock. 100m groups don't tell squat. My Mil-spec M4A1 will hold 3/4 with Mk262 mod1 at 200m, but at 500m it is lucky to hold 1.5 groups. Now my SPR upper will hold 3/4 @ 500m, however at 600m it opens up to 1 MOA.

I have a MSG91 that at 100m will hold about 1/3 groups, but at 300m it is just about 3/4, at 500m it is just under 1 and holds to about 700m where it opens to 1.5. My bolt guns hold a lot better at longer ranges because they have a lot less variables, faster lock times, only the firing pin is moving in a straight motion during firing, no gas tube, barrel is truly completely stress free (hint: the gas key interface with the gas tube does add some minute amount of stress to the barrel harmonics on AR and other gas systems) and it stays that way till the bullet is out of the barrel. In semi autos you have parts starting to move as the bullet is just leaving the barrel (watch high speed videos of the mechanisms) which is yet another variable (aka timing) that will have an effect on accuracy. Some of these variables can be minimized to some degree, but they still exist in semi autos.

Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing Semi's, they are wonderful weapons they just won't have the same level of precision as a bolt gun can have because they just have so many more variables that cannot be controlled. Heck, one big one is just with ammunition alone. Some gas guns can be very picky about powder selection in hand loads, as well as seating depth, and case size, while bolt guns can take essentially any powder, generally softer benchrest primers (though they are also generally fine in semi's just all the warnings about using them in semis that exist... you know disclaimer CYA stuff) and cases that essentially fit the chamber perfectly, that in a semi would have issues feeding. You can also load bullets out longer in most bolt actions, to fine tune the free bore length. Sure match chambers help minimize this effect, but there is still that variable that hinders semi's from ever reaching bolt gun potential. It's a matter of physics.

To sum it all up... Semi's are meant for rapid engagement of large (man sized) targets at 300-800m in their primary role. They are not meant to be shooting 1/4 groups, as that is not needed to fill that role. Semi rifles tend to leave some tolerance/clearance in them for reliability in function which compromises potential accuracy. I primarily use my semi's for shooting steel(I have hanging targets, X" square where X is 1 for every 100m) as they are designed for shooting at such targets. They are great for the role which they are designed for. They are not designed to be punching little one hole groups at 100m. They are meant to sling copper coated lead downrange at intermediate to long range at small-medium sized targets.

To claim you can shoot a 100m 1/4" group with a semi is like saying you got laid when you rubbed one out... sure the result is the same, however it just isn't what counts... Take your rifle to a real range, and shoot and then cry when you are lucky to get a 1/2 5 round group at 500m.
 
#62
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KevinB-KAC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gas guns are tougher to shoot than bolt guns. Generally bolt guns are ergonomically designed to shoot from the belly or bench, and most gas guns where designed as Infantry Combat weapons (at least at the initial design stage).

I shot a .25 group from a SR-25 EMC this morning with AB39 (Mk316 Mod0) - key a Group, I shot several .5 groups later, but I was the key factor. The same gun shot barely under 1" with M118LR (a decent lot of it, we have several lots of it that are 1.5 MOA ammo at best).

Position and Hold on a Gas gun are much more important, the best comments I have heard is you need to drive a gas gun, while you shoot a bolt gun... Many guns can do it, at the end of the day its the shooter.





</div></div>


Some lots of M118LR sold by some places are reject lots, which is why I never buy the stuff. I just got my loads re-calibrated for the new lot of Varget, and I am about to shoot the first manufacturer produced ammunition out of my rifle next week as a test to see how it performs. My handloads are going very well, in part because they are custom tuned using formed lapua brass. But I will find out if federal GMM 175 grain will group nearly as well in the case I need to travel somewhere I can't bring my handloads, or if a competition or course requires use of mass produced ammunition. I don't like mass produced ammunition because it is like 'one size fits all' stuff, where it never really fits 'just right', unless you have a weapon that is spec'd to what they developed the load around. Handloading allows that wonderful customization of powder selection for barrel/system and all that wonderful jazz...
 
#65
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mayhem1stClass</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To claim you can shoot a 100m 1/4" group with a semi is like saying you got laid when you rubbed one out... sure the result is the same, however it just isn't what counts... Take your rifle to a real range, and shoot and then cry when you are lucky to get a 1/2 5 round group at 500m. </div></div>

Your argument is off base here. You're comparing accuracy to that of a high end bolt rifle. The original OP wasn't asking about comparisons to bolt guns. Anyway, the evidence here suggests that 1/4 MOA semi-autos are indeed trending toward the possible. Obviously the bolt action is the better platform for long range work. Re-read your last sentence - what exactly is a "<span style="font-style: italic">1/2 5 round group at 500m</span>"?
 
#67
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

The most consistant .25 gun I have seen is an Armalite AR 10 a custom one build by SSK in 300WSM. Great shooter but most shooters cant live up to the gun from day to day. I have a .308 built by them also but as stated above its harder to shoot the AR platform for accuracy then a bolt gun. I just installed a HDMR on mine and am developing loads and shoot allot, and wouldn't make that claim even for .5 right now. Usually people who make the claims are the ones who can't on most days. There are a few though that have the guns and the skill.
 
#68
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I believe if it can't be done now we are not far from it. I've shot 1/2 moa out to 300 yards and moa out to 700 yards with a standard CL LMT MWS. I own several good bolt guns and I know I'm not a 1/4 moa shooter. The photo is 100 yards and the three groups averaged 3/4 moa. With out the uncalled flyer they average 1/2 moa.

[img

Uploaded with ImageShack.usimg
 
#69
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Internet groups are awesome, so I'll share mine. I have an AR-15 in 223 that I did extensive load development for. With this load my rifle has shot 1/4 MOA. I am in no way saying that I can do this all day long or anything to that matter, but when I shoot outside of 1/4-1/2 MOA I know exactly what is to blame....me.

On the other hand, I bought an AR-10 in 308. I did extensive load development trying 5 different bullets, and over 15 different powders and could not get sub 1.5 MOA. Thinking that I got unlucky, I bought a Noveski barrel for it and with the same extensive load development I could not get sub 1.25 MOA. In the end it cost me 4 months and around $3500. I traded up for a DTA 308, and immediately started getting sub 1/2.

I think that the AR-15 platform has been around mainstream and refined to the point that it is no longer difficult to get them to shoot as well as bolt guns. Now with the AR-10 style, even though older has not been in the spotlight until more recently. I think in the future (maybe near future) they will be closer to bolt action accuracy.

Or maybe I just got two lemon barrels, and I don't have any idea what I am talking about.
 
#71
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I guess a simpler version?

My experience is the AR-15 is capable of 1/4 MOA if you can shoot that well. I did not have anywhere near the same results with an AR-10.

Your results may very. Better?
 
#72
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

noob question, colleagues:
is it manual round loading one by one direct into the chamber improves accuracy on semi?
wondering 'cause I cant shoot shit out of my first semiauto - Rem R25 modified with KAC front, trigger, etc... but stock DPMS barrel. Usually all my groups split in 2 groups over 1moa. ammo is fine - FC, CCI, SMK175, N140 41.5, shooter also not the worst - sub .5 with bolts...
 
#73
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

The Internet is a funny place where everyone shoots under 1/4 moa pass 1000yds. I would love to see that "consistent" 1/4 moa semi-auto rifle and shooter show up at some real matches, undoubtably winning.
 
#75
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

My best shooting AR is my Noveske Afghan model. I've shot 1/4X3/8" groups several times but never achieved 1/4x1/4" groups but amost alway under 1/2".
 
#76
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My new favorite comment is:

You can <span style="font-style: italic">ride</span> a boltgun but you have to <span style="text-decoration: underline">drive</span> a gas gun.

</div></div>

LL, what does this mean exactly?
 
#77
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Patriot Prepper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My new favorite comment is:

You can <span style="font-style: italic">ride</span> a boltgun but you have to <span style="text-decoration: underline">drive</span> a gas gun.

</div></div>

LL, what does this mean exactly?</div></div>
It means a bolt gun is easy to run, some pretty much shoot themselves, even with an inexperienced shooter.

You have to use correct form, trigger control, etc to make a gasser shoot...
 
#78
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I built a AR-10 that would shoot .25 moa shots,and that's about as good as it gets with match ammo,match trigger,match barrel,etc. it cost money and most people can't live up to there rifle. Is he BSing??? who know's......There's one way to find out........put some money on it! I have a M14 that occasionally shoots .25 moa, but more often than not shoots .46moa.......and that girl is expensive!!!!! <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: untouchable13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a guy tell me he was getting 1/4 MOA group sizes out of a AR-10 and I found that surprising since most of the custom rifle makers only guarantee 3/4 MOA out of their rifles. I know it hugely depends on the shooter, but is anyone for real getting 1/4 MOA out of their gas gun? Or is that just BS.

Just to be clear my understanding of a true group is a 5 shot group.

Thoughts? </div></div>
 
#79
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Beautiful Rifle mate!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm with Mechanic on this.

The claim the guy is making sounds like a bullshit claim to me, and not because I can't do it. GAP and other precision rifle manufacturers place 1/2-3/4 MOA guarantee on their rifles but that also depends on the shooter. </div></div>
 
#80
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

I have shot numerous groups in the range of 1/4 to 1/2 MOA with my MA-TEN w/Rock Creek 5R 18.5" barrel at varied distance out to 500 yds with my reloads. That said I have had days were the best I could do was 3/4 to 1 1/2 with the same gun/load. All my shooting is done from my bipod and shooting sock no sled ever.

Guarantees from any manufacture or custom builder are relative to how they test and measure but any rifle that shoots sub 3/4 MOA with factory match ammo is worth having in your safe.

There are a ton a variables least of which is the biological component of the weapon system (me). I find shooting single round dot drills to be much more benefical practice and a true test of the effectiveness of my rifles and me
 
#83
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

when i did my load development for my .243 bolt gun i had one load that shot a .108" group. since then i have not been able to shoot a group that tight, 1/4 is lucky but also uncommon, most fall 1/2 to 3/4 moa on the good days. i'd call BS on his story of 1/4 consistently.
 
#84
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Most people that I meet in the shop or at the range that talk to me about their new "build" ends up being a stock rifle that they changed out the stock and grip for the Magpul parts of the week and presto they built it. I would be willing to bet that they guy in question falls into this category.
 
#85
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Yesterday I was able to hold 4 shots of 168gr FGMM on a shoot n see dot. I almost completely covered it with a dime. Kind of impressive actually for an M1a based rifle. I was so excited I wanted to shoot another, but this time a 10rd group. I was fucked after the 3rd shot making it 1 moa in that 10 rounds. It's god damn hard not to fuck up in 10 shots! If I could be consistently shooting 1/2moa I'd be thrilled. 1/4moa isn't even in the picture yet for me and the M21. I need to work on it a lot more.
 
#86
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

remeber that gap and places like that claim 1/2 or 3/4 more because of the shooter than the rifle if they all claimed 1/2 or whatever and we all know the majority of shooters are not capable of this consistantly then that would not be good for buisness!
 
#88
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

By no means am I saying my m14 is a 1/4 moa rifle......however she occassionally does shoot that at 100yds and avg. .46moa with hand loads. here is a pic of my m14 with winchester supreme 168gr. at 100yds and Hornady SST/Superformance at 400yds.(2.75") I will be posting my handload groups when I get a chance to get back to the range.
297520_238022279570128_202193666486323_644067_824696_n.jpg

216533_10150161638058201_649593200_6682383_2852121_n.jpg
308315_246700292035660_202193666486323_666618_185778_n.jpg




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vkc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1/4moa is possible at 100 yds with semi-automatic but unlikely, as stated above, depends most on the shooter. One thing to consider with semi-auto vs. bolt actions, as the distance gets further, e.g. beyond 300 yards, the accuracy deteriorates more for a semi-auto, as the little things matter much more at distance. The trigger pull follow-through and stability with recoil is much more of a factor with a semi-auto and is magnified with further distances.</div></div>
 
#89
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

My questions is...what does it matter? Ok, I know it's fun to find the limit on things, and I know the OP was just asking a question because of some jackhole that was claiming crap at the guncounter. Still, if we are talking a .308 @ 1000 yards if you maintain the 1/4 MOA vs. 1/2 MOA idea we are talking about an extra 2.5 inches right? In a vacuum a 1/2 minute gun will have a spread of 5 inches and a 1/4 minute gun will have a spread of 2.5 right?

I have gotten to the point where I would rather take all that ammo wasted testing groups on paper at 100 and just shoot between 300-1000 and get practice reading wind, checking dope and getting the satisfaction of smacking steel and becoming a better shooter. Sometimes we forget that the purpose of precision is to hit stuff far away! Not a knock on anyone posting, I'm just frustrated after only shooting paper at 100 with some noobs because I'm new to the Denver area, and don't know a good distance range yet.
 
#90
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verdugo60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My questions is...what does it matter? Ok, I know it's fun to find the limit on things, and I know the OP was just asking a question because of some jackhole that was claiming crap at the guncounter. Still, if we are talking a .308 @ 1000 yards if you maintain the 1/4 MOA vs. 1/2 MOA idea we are talking about an extra 2.5 inches right? In a vacuum a 1/2 minute gun will have a spread of 5 inches and a 1/4 minute gun will have a spread of 2.5 right?

I have gotten to the point where I would rather take all that ammo wasted testing groups on paper at 100 and just shoot between 300-1000 and get practice reading wind, checking dope and getting the satisfaction of smacking steel and becoming a better shooter. Sometimes we forget that the purpose of precision is to hit stuff far away! Not a knock on anyone posting, I'm just frustrated after only shooting paper at 100 with some noobs because I'm new to the Denver area, and don't know a good distance range yet. </div></div> Naaaaa, it doesn't matter but, all that ammo isn't just wasted.......you have to get data on your rifle at different ranges and in most cases, your loads will be entirely different at your longer distances..........I think there's more to it than just reading the wind! I think it's pretty safe to say that you won't get .25moa at 1000 (or .50 for that matter)out of a gas operated rifle.
 
#91
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Im brand new to this site actually this is my first post. Could someone tell me where to go on here to talk to some people about my LR-308 chambered in 7mm08 jamming? I've changed from the A2 original stock to a mil-spec buffer tube with magpul CTR stock. I replaced the buffer with a XH CAR10 buffer from heavybuffers.com and it came with a spring as well that I installed as well. Its closing on the fired casing. Could maybe someone tell me which topic to look for or where to go?
 
#92
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hell-Hill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im brand new to this site actually this is my first post. Could someone tell me where to go on here to talk to some people about my LR-308 chambered in 7mm08 jamming? I've changed from the A2 original stock to a mil-spec buffer tube with magpul CTR stock. I replaced the buffer with a XH CAR10 buffer from heavybuffers.com and it came with a spring as well that I installed as well. Its closing on the fired casing. Could maybe someone tell me which topic to look for or where to go? </div></div>

You can go ahead and post this issue in its own topic on this board.
This is preferred over thread jacking.

That way people who have input can click your thread and offer advice.

Click the search option in my sig line first maybe this has been a problem for someone in the past.
 
#93
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Well if you as the shooter can't get it down at 100, you sure as hell are not going to at 1000. I don't see shooting for accuracy a waste.
 
#94
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Without reading 3 pages or responses, I can say if you tune a gas gun and make up the optimal load for it, the best I have seen out of my AR10 is 0.75 MOA consistently (that being the key). I have made many 1 hole groups, but not ALL day long. I shoot the 155 scenars out of a 24" T barrel and it is very dependable for sub MOA, but 0.25 MOA repeatedly is not realistic on mine.
 
#95
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Id say 1/2moa is the best most well built rifles can consistently shoot. Unless you are a scout sniper and have a custom built rifle and scope that is dialed in like a sob then 1/2 is about as good as you can get consistently. Hitting 1/4 is possible but it sure isn't repeatedable all day long past 100 yards.

Id love to see a rifle hit 1/4 moa at 500 yards because I would buy one on the spot.

Best group I have shot it just under 1/2 moa at 350 and there was NO wind.
 
#96
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

The limit is the driver. I would not be surprised if many rifles can do it. If a box stock rifle like mine can do .35 or so consistently with my lousy shooting skills. I would think a pro could drive it to .25.
 
#97
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

One thing I have found was that my 308 gas gun is alot more fickle with different ammunition. My GAP Crusader shoots a wider range of ammo more consistently than my 308 gas gun. I've shot a .138" 5-shot group with my OBR before...ONCE. But I definitely cannot do that consistently. I shoot 1/2-3/4 MOA most of the time with good match ammo or reloads.
 
#99
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

Here's the way I see it:
Guy 1: "Well, I have a 1/4 MOA rifle, so it's better than yours!!"
Me: "Are you consistantly a 1/4 MOA shooter? At medium to long ranges?"
Guy 1: "...uhhh no."
Me: "Then what does it matter?"
I think people get too caught up in how accurate they can make a rifle. Sure, pushing the limits is fun, but for me, pushing the limits at longer ranges with a less than perfect gun is a hell of alot more fun than simply going for 1/4 MOA groups at 100 yards. JMHO, not hating on anyone, and nice shooting folks.
 
#100
Re: Semi Auto 1/4 MOA group?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For zero dispersion be as perfect as your equipment. </div></div>

Or just know where the next one will hit and compensate
grin.gif
 
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