I was looking at a thread "What the pro's use" in the bolt gun forum and was wondering if you guys, who shoot matches, still prefer a bolt gun or is your precision semi-auto your work horse.
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Semi-Auto vs Bolt Gun: Precision/Tactical Matches
- Thread starter 308Shooter1911
- Start date
Different matches can benifit from different rifles. The GAP10 I saw was accurate enough for most matches but your bolt back run and gun stuff the auto benifits none. Most shooters go bolt but you will see some autos. And as autos have been stepping up nowadays I think they will keep going strong.
Semi's can have their drawbacks. Often I'll have stages where they require each change of position that the bolt be back which when you have to change positions 5x+ can really suck. You either have to decide to eject a live round each time or run 5+ magazines. But like all things it has it's benefits with quicker follow-ups, increased magazine capacity, and in certain instances like hanging platforms there's less movement between shots for more stability.
I have 4 308 semis and 8 223/556 semi's of various flavors. While most are quite accurate none come close to the accuracy of my AIAW or TRG 22.
for me it's about confidence. i know i can hit small targets with a bolt gun. i just don't have that confidence with a gas gun, despite owning a few very accurate gas guns. AND while a gas gun might save you some time, just about every stage can still be finished with a bolt gun. So I don't think we'll start seeing a lot of gas guns in matches until we switch to a 3gun style "time plus" scoring system. i.e. today in most stages, if both guys get 5 hits on a stage and one does it in 40 seconds and the other does it in 55, they get the same score. In a time plus system, one guy would have a score of 40 + penalties and the other 55 + penalties so there would suddenly be a huge motivation to shave tenths of a second off your time, like USPSA.
Lots of variables to consider between the platforms and also which matches you want to run the respective platform at. For a match which has mostly mid-range targets (700yds and in) and has a time plus or par time per stage constraint; a semi can be a benefit. Most of my match experience is at Woody's DMM and in a few weeks I'll be shooting my sixth DMM. Four of those were with a LR-308 and the most recent two will be with a Savage LRP in .260Rem. I went from the semi to the bolt mainly because the match has evolved from a mostly prone match to more of a barricade/positional type match. For me going to the bolt gun forces me to focus more on building the position and making the first shot count. The one downside I noticed from shooting a semi is that I started to rely on the follow up shots, rather than making the first one count. Either platform can be employed successfully dependent on the shooter (Indian not the arrow). I know John Paul of JP Rifles has been fairly successful (top 10) with his LRP-07 at multiple LR matches. I believe for the past four DMM's most of the top 10 teams (including the last two winning teams) have consisted of semi's with some bolt guns sprinkled in, while the Summer 2011 match was won by a team using single load bolt guns. It's the indian, not the arrow. 
I agree that few semi-autos can match the accuracy of a bolt gun. However, I consider the size of the targets at the matches, then decide if the semi-auto is accurate enough to use. If most of the steel at our matches is 2-4 moa, then my Grendel that will shoot .65-1.1 MOA is plenty accurate enough. However, if the targets at 100 yards are 2 inch circles, with an one inch circle, and half inch circle inside of that, I can loose enough points from the lesser accuracy, that giving up the speed of a semi-auto is a worthwhile trade off. At a match where our most distant targets are 66% IPSC targets ( body is about 12x19 inches, with a 4 inch head) at 540 yards, the speed of the semi-auto is a definite advantage, and my Grendel is plenty accurate enough to hit reliably.
The type of scoring system also comes into consideration. A match with a par time where a bolt gun can finish up comfortably, and points count more than time, is dramatically different from a match where your score is divided by your time. There is no rifle that will do all things at all matches. Some matches favor semi-autos, other matches favor bolt guns. Some match directors deliberately design matches to neutralize the differences between the two, while other directors feel that one weapon system is superior, and design matches to favor the system they like.
Course design, scoring system, and target size all make huge differences in which system to use.
The type of scoring system also comes into consideration. A match with a par time where a bolt gun can finish up comfortably, and points count more than time, is dramatically different from a match where your score is divided by your time. There is no rifle that will do all things at all matches. Some matches favor semi-autos, other matches favor bolt guns. Some match directors deliberately design matches to neutralize the differences between the two, while other directors feel that one weapon system is superior, and design matches to favor the system they like.
Course design, scoring system, and target size all make huge differences in which system to use.
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For the current competitions the bolt action rifle has the advantage. Currently most major matches use a par time for points scoring method, and a limited round count for stage or target. Most of the shots taken are taken from non-standard less then optimal firing positions. When shooting from less stable positions under time constraint fast lock time and light triggers are a distinct advantage. With a bolt action shooters can utilize a light hold on the rifle when in the worst firing positions, where the semi-auto with light trigger has a high possibility of doubling if proper fundamentals aren't applied. The doubling isn't a huge problem unless the round doesn't impact safely, however if there's a limited round count on the stage then one has been wasted. Regarding follow-up shots or transitioning from target to target the bolt action has no disadvantage if the shooter can cycle the bolt during the recoil impulse, while moving the rifle/position to another target, or while readjusting his position after recoil.
Now lets consider ammunition. When selecting ammo to use in a semi-auto you must consider magazine length and the ability to cycle the rifle properly. When using the longest 6.5 or 6mm bullets you may have trouble optimizing the ammunition. Bullet selection and velocity play a bigger roll in points scored then semi vs bolt. If you can fire a high BC bullet at the highest velocity allowed then you have a huge advantage when dealing with the variables your sure to encounter in a match.
Until the rules set fourth by match directors depict a more realistic shooting environment then we'll never know which type of rifle is truly superior. I would like to see a scoring method used that was time plus penalties. An even better scoring system would be points scored divided by time taken to score the points. That would give the most three demential look at the weapon/shooter capability, rewording both speed and accuracy. Set a time limit on stages and deduct for targets not engaged. Let competitors fire all the rounds they want. It's almost always faster to hit with the first round. Look at stage winners from 3gun carbine stages. The top scorer will go one for one on the distance targets.
I believe that most would be surprised if those scoring methods were used. The bolt rifles would still prove superior as long as the targets were less then 2MOA and beyond 300m. 66% IPSC targets inside 300m from prone or supported firing positions the semi would be at the advantage.
If you haven't been to a match I ask that you take the equipment that you have, practice with the intent of winning, take your performance seriously, learn from your experience, then please come back and share your findings. Help grow our sport and our understanding of long range shooting.
"A man with a scoped rifle is master of all he surveys" Jeff Cooper.
Now lets consider ammunition. When selecting ammo to use in a semi-auto you must consider magazine length and the ability to cycle the rifle properly. When using the longest 6.5 or 6mm bullets you may have trouble optimizing the ammunition. Bullet selection and velocity play a bigger roll in points scored then semi vs bolt. If you can fire a high BC bullet at the highest velocity allowed then you have a huge advantage when dealing with the variables your sure to encounter in a match.
Until the rules set fourth by match directors depict a more realistic shooting environment then we'll never know which type of rifle is truly superior. I would like to see a scoring method used that was time plus penalties. An even better scoring system would be points scored divided by time taken to score the points. That would give the most three demential look at the weapon/shooter capability, rewording both speed and accuracy. Set a time limit on stages and deduct for targets not engaged. Let competitors fire all the rounds they want. It's almost always faster to hit with the first round. Look at stage winners from 3gun carbine stages. The top scorer will go one for one on the distance targets.
I believe that most would be surprised if those scoring methods were used. The bolt rifles would still prove superior as long as the targets were less then 2MOA and beyond 300m. 66% IPSC targets inside 300m from prone or supported firing positions the semi would be at the advantage.
If you haven't been to a match I ask that you take the equipment that you have, practice with the intent of winning, take your performance seriously, learn from your experience, then please come back and share your findings. Help grow our sport and our understanding of long range shooting.
"A man with a scoped rifle is master of all he surveys" Jeff Cooper.
With the barrels and accuracy nowadays hard not to go gasser 1: its just about cheaper to build and not have to deal with stock bedding, blueprinting and what not that being said with all the chassis systems nowadays not hard to get a bolt gun running great 2: with GAP-10's, JP LR07's and barrels nowadays one can pull pretty close to the same groups as a bolt gun. 3: Not having to bolt or run bolt open with barricade shooting just safety on usually "depending on range". 4: When shooting movers not having to bolt while tracking target gasser makes it much easier...that being said I shoot a bolt and love it but built a gasser after seeing so many more advantages. Love both styles they both have benefits and problems guess the only thing i really hate about a gasser is chasing brass but that can be solved with a catcher or deflector.
I believe that I read at a local match, you had to police your brass before moving to the next firing position. That would be a bit slow with a gasser as well, unless you ran a brass catcher of some sort. Sounded to me like that particular MD didn't "want" the gassers to play. Just my opinion, I'm wrong a lot.
I wouldn't be surprised. I've run into issues up here where it's basically no semi-autos allowed.
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I ran a gas gun for a bit in comps (POF 6.5CM) and while plenty accurate I won't be running a gas gun over a bolt again. Too few stages where the advantage a gasser gives to be worthwhile.
See the reasons well spelled out above.
Also you can go to the PRS site, look at the top 50 shooters and find how many of them shoot semis in competition...
I ran a gas gun for a bit in comps (POF 6.5CM) and while plenty accurate I won't be running a gas gun over a bolt again. Too few stages where the advantage a gasser gives to be worthwhile.
See the reasons well spelled out above.
Also you can go to the PRS site, look at the top 50 shooters and find how many of them shoot semis in competition...
I've been running mostly AR10's in long-range competitions since 2007. I shot one match with a bolt gun several years ago. The thing I crave about a bolt gun is the lock time, and that's about it. It definitely helps you make precise hits with much less focus on the act of breaking the trigger and following through. When I get on my buddies' bolt guns, it feels like I can't miss, even if I yank on the triggers like a noob.
The main reason I stay with self-loaders is because you can't really fight with a bolt gun in the real world, so I use a platform that can be used as a closer range fighting stick, in addition to being able to reach out with a high hit probability on man-size targets. I cursed every moment I carried an M24 in the field, because it's a big club that you can't really shoot positions with, just like the M40A3. As much as I complain about the laundry list of issues with the M21, I still feel the Army made a bad decision going to the M24, and time has validated that complaint.
My focus in competing is more about drawing from the scenarios and learning lessons that may help me in the future. I've been pretty stubborn about staying with a self-loader all this time, and my GAP-built .260 Rem AR10 shoots a lot better than most of the bolt guns I see, so I've taken as much of the equipment factor out of the equation as possible.
The main reason I stay with self-loaders is because you can't really fight with a bolt gun in the real world, so I use a platform that can be used as a closer range fighting stick, in addition to being able to reach out with a high hit probability on man-size targets. I cursed every moment I carried an M24 in the field, because it's a big club that you can't really shoot positions with, just like the M40A3. As much as I complain about the laundry list of issues with the M21, I still feel the Army made a bad decision going to the M24, and time has validated that complaint.
My focus in competing is more about drawing from the scenarios and learning lessons that may help me in the future. I've been pretty stubborn about staying with a self-loader all this time, and my GAP-built .260 Rem AR10 shoots a lot better than most of the bolt guns I see, so I've taken as much of the equipment factor out of the equation as possible.
i thought it was interesting at the time that there were 0 out of 50+ shooters in the PRS finale running gassers, even though that match was mostly short range paper
edit: why would you say you can't shoot positional with an m24?
edit: why would you say you can't shoot positional with an m24?
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You can shoot positions with big, heavy, Palma contour barrels, just not well, especially with gear on and moving in and out of positions in a realistic environment, versus shooting jackets and slings dialed-in for one particular range condition.
I don't even like trying to shoot positions with an 18" SPR, compared to a little 16" carbine. If I can hold the reticle on-target better, my hit probability goes way up from positions. Yes, I use slings in positions, but long, heavy barreled guns just don't obey well, since they demand more muscle input from even a minimal muscle NPOA position. Even when you find the rare sweet spot NPOA with natural support, the imbalance of the bull barrel will eventually start straining something.
The best thing that could ever happen to these matches would be to eliminate the prone position to reflect reality more. That would drive a series of trends that would be more beneficial to a crowd more oriented to practicality, versus proving that we can hit certain size targets at different ranges from a comfortable prone position off a bipod, bag, and sand sock. That said, I think every match I've been to has had positions in it, but there is still a focus on prone shooting. I'm seeing more and more positional shooting introduced in some matches, but I would like to see at least 75-85% of all the stages involve positions.
I don't even like trying to shoot positions with an 18" SPR, compared to a little 16" carbine. If I can hold the reticle on-target better, my hit probability goes way up from positions. Yes, I use slings in positions, but long, heavy barreled guns just don't obey well, since they demand more muscle input from even a minimal muscle NPOA position. Even when you find the rare sweet spot NPOA with natural support, the imbalance of the bull barrel will eventually start straining something.
The best thing that could ever happen to these matches would be to eliminate the prone position to reflect reality more. That would drive a series of trends that would be more beneficial to a crowd more oriented to practicality, versus proving that we can hit certain size targets at different ranges from a comfortable prone position off a bipod, bag, and sand sock. That said, I think every match I've been to has had positions in it, but there is still a focus on prone shooting. I'm seeing more and more positional shooting introduced in some matches, but I would like to see at least 75-85% of all the stages involve positions.
With todays advancements in semi reliability and accuracy, I think the advantages of a bolt gun are decreasing. Im going to switch to a gasser for match shooting...at least give it a try. PTS and K&M have changed the rules that kept me from going to a gas gun in the first place with the allowance of switching the rifle to safe in between positions. Now that I no longer need to worry about stripping a mag and ejecting a round and locking the bolt back I think I can gain a definite advantage with a gas gun.
With an SR25 style mag I have 20 round capability.....no stage I have ever shot required any more than that from a single shooter, so no need to reload. Not having to cycle a bolt means not having to break down my grip and trigger finger position.....if Im on and hammering away, I just keep doing what Im doing. Thats especially important in odd positional shooting. In this last PTS match, during the "get to the short bus" stage, every time my partner or I would rack the bolt, the bus would shake just enough to mess up the other guys shot. A gas gun wouldnt do that....in the end saving time.
In the end I think if the top guys were to turn their focus to shooting a top quality gas gun, they'd still be wining.
With an SR25 style mag I have 20 round capability.....no stage I have ever shot required any more than that from a single shooter, so no need to reload. Not having to cycle a bolt means not having to break down my grip and trigger finger position.....if Im on and hammering away, I just keep doing what Im doing. Thats especially important in odd positional shooting. In this last PTS match, during the "get to the short bus" stage, every time my partner or I would rack the bolt, the bus would shake just enough to mess up the other guys shot. A gas gun wouldnt do that....in the end saving time.
In the end I think if the top guys were to turn their focus to shooting a top quality gas gun, they'd still be wining.
I just looked at the Precision Multigun Match website and read the stage descriptions...very nice.
I'm usually able to beat most competitors with my 22" .260 AR10 when shooting positions, by locking in really well with the padded VTAC, but they usually do better at distance from bipod/prone. I can clear plate rack stages really quickly, but there are still some guys running bolt guns who will beat my times on them as well, but very few (2 at the last match, including the guy who put the match together).
In high wind conditions, a long gun with a can gets blown all over the place from positions, as you know. I run DM Courses where most of the course is shot from positions. The morning of Day 1 is about the only time a prone/bipod position is used just to proof the system out to 600yds, then the rest of the course is pretty much all positional shooting. I'm always chasing the position rabbit hole, so I'm all ears on any pointers on how to dial-in better, especially with kneeling. I like kneeling because it's easy to get in and out of, but it sucks to shoot from for guys like me who are taller. I find seated much easier to set up a great position with, but it's difficult to get out of. A long martial arts background has provided me with being able to get into a seated position quickly, but it still sucks to get out of. This is why I'm always looking for tips on how to improve kneeling.
I'm usually able to beat most competitors with my 22" .260 AR10 when shooting positions, by locking in really well with the padded VTAC, but they usually do better at distance from bipod/prone. I can clear plate rack stages really quickly, but there are still some guys running bolt guns who will beat my times on them as well, but very few (2 at the last match, including the guy who put the match together).
In high wind conditions, a long gun with a can gets blown all over the place from positions, as you know. I run DM Courses where most of the course is shot from positions. The morning of Day 1 is about the only time a prone/bipod position is used just to proof the system out to 600yds, then the rest of the course is pretty much all positional shooting. I'm always chasing the position rabbit hole, so I'm all ears on any pointers on how to dial-in better, especially with kneeling. I like kneeling because it's easy to get in and out of, but it sucks to shoot from for guys like me who are taller. I find seated much easier to set up a great position with, but it's difficult to get out of. A long martial arts background has provided me with being able to get into a seated position quickly, but it still sucks to get out of. This is why I'm always looking for tips on how to improve kneeling.
(sorry about the PMG website... it's on haitus and hasn't been updated it in a year. Check out the precisiontacticalsolutions.com website. The spring and fall team matches are posted there for past 12 months. new name, same matches.)
yeah, you're probably right about the wind. i'm 6'5" and love shooting slung up in high power with an AR, but there are just much better sitting and kneeling positions that are faster, more stable and don't require a sling. so the only time i use a sling anymore is on K&M's nostalgia stage.
edit: heh yeah, it was a bit much. i've dialed back to 26" now. shrinkage
yeah, you're probably right about the wind. i'm 6'5" and love shooting slung up in high power with an AR, but there are just much better sitting and kneeling positions that are faster, more stable and don't require a sling. so the only time i use a sling anymore is on K&M's nostalgia stage.
edit: heh yeah, it was a bit much. i've dialed back to 26" now. shrinkage
Having shot both, I consider the semi-auto to be an advantage only if matches move to a "time+" scoring system. I've got an AR10 platform rifle in 6XC and it's extremely accurate and fast to shoot, but it suffers the same drawbacks that all the same type of rifles do when shot from less steady positions. I rarely (like literally I can't remember the last time it happened) run out of time on stages when shooting a bolt gun though, and advantage that the bolt gun has in being easier to shoot well from less steady positions is worth far more in a match setting than the speed advantage of the semi-auto where speed really doesn't matter.
I was just thinking about this today. I don't have any long range rifles yet and I've been seriously considering going with a DPMS rather than a bolt gun for a variety of reasons one of which being Remington doesn't offer anything in 6.5 creedmoor the cartridge I'd like to use.
Does anyone know how the competitors in the Snipers Hide Cup who used Semi Autos faired?
Does anyone know how the competitors in the Snipers Hide Cup who used Semi Autos faired?
If you are new to the game a gas gun can be a disadvantage, for many reasons.
And I wouldn't try 6.5 Creed in a gas gun: Poor LR performance by comparison and difficulties with the best high pressure/heavy bullet loads.
Poor long range performance compared to what?
What cartridge can you feed out of a gasser that runs better?
The biggest advantage a bolt gun has is when you get into the magnum calibers for when you need to really reach out there.
6.5 CM is a rock star inside 1000-1100 yards.
What cartridge can you feed out of a gasser that runs better?
The biggest advantage a bolt gun has is when you get into the magnum calibers for when you need to really reach out there.
6.5 CM is a rock star inside 1000-1100 yards.
Curious about the same - I thought 6.5CM WAS the route to go for a ranged gasser (260 mag length issues).
Sorry, gonna have to disagree. My match partner shoots a 6.5 CM out of a 24 inch barrel and he blisters stuff out to 1000. I was talking to JP last weekend and he gets close to the same velocity out of his gassers with the same bullet. You definitely dont need a 27 inch barrel to get good speed out of a 6.5 CM.
Granted I admit I have no practical experience but the 24" DPMS with published Muzzle Velocity of factory Hornady ammo out of a DPMS gets me supersonic out to 1350 with 16.3 mils elevation with my ballistics calculator.
There used to be a guy on here who competed with one and claimed he never felt at a disadvantage but that's a relatively small sample size.
The thing that makes me look hard at the DPMS is that they seem to be more consistently accurate from the factory than almost any other factory gun and it's the only factory 6.5 option out there with a heavy barrel other than the Savage 12 LRP which I'm not a huge fan of. If I can ever actually find one again after the black rifle scare of 2013 It seems like a much more cost effective option for an accurate rifle to and past 1000 yards than any bolt action I know of.
There are no mag-length issues with the .260 Rem in a gas gun that I have experienced. I've run:
¤ The 123gr Scenar
¤ 130gr VLD (my preferred bullet, outside of cost)
¤ 140gr VLD
¤ 139gr Scenar
¤ 140gr A-MAX
¤140gr Barnes Match Burner
¤ 142gr SMK
They have plenty of room loaded to 2.800" COAL, and I have found accurate loads for all of them but the 140gr A-MAX (need to work with it more if I really wanted to). I think the 130gr VLD going 2850fps from my 22" barrel is more than plenty, especially as it shoots them into .4 to .6" 5rd groups at 100yds, and is 1/2 Minute at 700yds, sub MOA at 1000yds with no real effort.
The .260 Rem case also feeds well from 7.62 mags because shoulder location and angle are the same. GA Precision blended my feed ramps with the upper. At the altitudes I'm usually at, I'm still way supersonic past 1400yds, with crazy retained energy, and minimal drop. I'm still under 10 Mils at 1200yds with that load at 4400ft ASL in 81 F temp.
Thanks for the info fellas. I have a POF 308 that is scary accurate. I have always wanted a AI AE 308, but was thinking my money could be better utilized elsewhere in my "Armory" if I could be competitive with my POF. I think the only reason I am still considering the AIAE is because a different caliber will give my a competitive advantage over the 308.
If you want more accurate information than the ability to 'reach out there', performance described as 'rock star' or a friend's ability to 'blister', then call George. He builds 6.5 gas guns. He'll tell you what works and what doesn't.
Im sorry, but your statement as to how the 6.5 DIDN'T work out of a gas gun was even more anecdotal. Im quite familiar with Georges gas guns, Ive owned them. I'd say anything around 2800 fps with a 130 VLD is going to provide phenomenal performance inside 1000 yards.
Guess my only beef is just go out and shoot one or two and you will find out pretty quick what your favorites are...I have both but prefer a gasser in 260 but this is kinda like the chevy vs ford argument alot of guys thats been running bolts for there career are not going to change over so easy I love shooting both styles of guns but in the end comes down to personal preference.
Graham, Since you seem to know about it why don't you explain yourself? I'd like to hear your reasoning and comparison info especially the .308 to 6.5. What bullets and what speeds are you comparing the two? I've never owned a 308 gasser but a couple 6.5 Creed and a 6 creed.
I have struggled with this forever and still think it is determined by COF. I think I was top gasser in the 12 Grind at 27th and had a 0 point stage thanks to being a Dumb S$$ that you just cant come back from at this level. I ran a GAP 10 in 6 creed. This led me to believe it was doable so I took it to the BRAWL this year but have no Idea how it would have worked due to competing with a mixed lot of borrowed ammo thanks to FED EX! Guess I will run the gasser in the Grind again to try to make a point.
i don't think the issue is guys running bolts for their career and being stubborn. Some years I shoot more rounds in my ARs than I have rounds in my lifetime through a bolt. I love gas guns. I love 3gun matches. (except the shotgun) I just don't think i would score as many points with a gas gun as I do with a bolt.
I use a bolt gun, and wouldn't envy the gassers at matches. I think that there are too many matches who will make you drop mag and rack a round to move. I also think that it is a little easier for me to be accurate on a bolt gun in general. I also can't imagine that the bolt gun with a longer barrel would out perform at 800-1000 yds, and also be able to cut the wind better.
I'd agree Jon. I ran a gasser at Woodys and PTS. To me a gasser has advantage at a COF like Woodys. You have X time to hit Y targets, your amt of time it took to complete a stage was your score unless you ran over or got penalties.
At PTS I don't believe either had an overall advantage. All the stages were less than or about bolt magazine capacity so they weren't at a disadvantage on magazine size. Only advantage to a gasser may have been when you had to engage a target twice from a barricaded position, but hardly worth running a gasser exclusively. With the limited rd count and scoring you couldn't "spray and pray" to figure out windage adjustments.
I haven't competed much and never with a bolt gun. That's going to change soon when the new 6.5 whizbang is completed.
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I was raised on bolts and can run a bolt fast, but I'm stubborn with sticking with gas guns for the reasons I explained above.
I too think the shotgun needs to go away from 3-gun. I personally have no use for a shotgun when I can grab a carbine with a 30rd mag, unless door-breaching is going to be part of 3-gun, and we know that ain't practical for running a match.
I notice a lot of difference in the 3-gun matches East of the Mississippi, versus out West, because of all the open space. I used to shoot a lot of 3-gun in the Bragg and surrounding areas before moving back West, so I understand that it can be very difficult to find terrain for ranges in the East where more distance and space come into play. It's par for the course in the Rockies and Mojave Desert area, as well as most of WA and OR as well until you hit the coast. I love shooting in the mountains. There seems to be a growing trend of matches out here where you shoot carbine, pistol, and long-range rifle. That's how I always wished the 3-gun matches were out east.
Regarding gas gun versus bolt velocity, I have a 22" Krieger barreled gas gun, and my friend a 26" rock barreled 700. With factory 140 amax, I get 2689 fps average and he gets 2766. Around 19 fps / inch, which sounds about right.
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