Gunsmithing Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

[AdamJacksom]

Alright, I am currently waiting for my .300 Blk barrel to arrive so I can continue my Daewoo DR conversion to the .300 Blk. Since the barrel mfg. is predicting a 2-16 week lead time, I have decided to go ahead and start another project in the down time. Here is what I'm thinking of doing:

I have a 12ga Beretta AL390 I used duck hunting when I was in high school before I convinced my dad to "sell" me his SBE. So now, I have the Beretta which is just sitting in my safe plaguing my imagination. I want to turn it into a combat shotgun but because of the cycling operation, the gun's magazine tube configuration cannot be modified or changed, therefore, the gun seems to be stuck with a max 3-shot mag tube. I want to change that.

I want to add a box mag to the shotgun. Now, I've seen several posts related to this issue saying "it can't be done," "don't try it," "buy a regular combat shotgun and save the trouble," etc, etc. Here's the thing, I have a shotgun that's not being used, and I've pretty much already set my mind to trying it. So, I'm looking for some information on how I can make it happen. I've got a background in mech. engineering and industrial prototyping, as well as access to a machine shop and a brother who can make Solidworks sing like a mozart harmony.
So, anybody got ideas that might be beneficial and help me minimize the damage to a perfectly good shotgun?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

this is your chance at becoming a gun ho

there is no glory in butchering a perfect sporting /hunting shotgun...

a douche bag wanna be will say that he made some go fast wiz-bang state of the art new invention re-invent the wheel boolit launcher.......but no one gives a rats ass what you do......so just sell the shotgun and get what you think you really need

 

[wfjames22]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

Sell the Beretta for $400, add $200 from your piggy bank and buy a Saiga 12. Mission accomplished.

Or since your have your "mind set to trying it", start by hacking up a perfectly good shotgun. Then once you have spent way more than $200 and still dont have a "combat" shotgun, but no longer have a working shotgun period, you will see why people are trying to steer you down another road. My 2 cents.....

 

[AdamJacksom]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

geez.. why so angry?! just a few responses:

1. Even though we are not currently engaged in a formal argument, your statement: "this is your chance at becoming a gun ho" is an 'ad hominem'. If you don't know what that is, look it up. It is a logical fallacy. It's existence in your 'argument' completely invalidates your entire response, discrediting everything that follows.

2. <span style="font-style: italic">"there is no glory in butchering a perfect sporting /hunting shotgun..."</span> This statement, as a response, is also a logical fallacy, mostly, it takes the form of a 'straw man fallacy' which is a type of a 'fallacy of assumption.' In this instance, what you are <span style="font-weight: bold">assuming</span>, unwarrantedly, I might add, is that one would only seek to modify a <span style="font-style: italic">"perfect sporting/hunting shotgun"</span> for a sense of <span style="font-style: italic">"glory."</span>
Also, imbedded in this particular instance is also a "false-dilimma" and "fallacy of definition" in your confusion of the terms 'modifying' and 'butchering'. Also, in using the term <span style="font-style: italic">'butchering'</span> you are also committing another instance of a 'straw man fallacy.' For formal purposes, the arguer hoping to equate such a thing does so with the intention of then being able to easily discredit it.
And, as an aside, though I know you are intending to be rhetorically forceful, labeling anything as "perfect" is a dangerous tactic. Especially when you offer no grounds or specific, existent criteria upon which such a label of <span style="font-style: italic">"perfection" </span> could be attributed.

3. In response to your final paragraph:
<span style="font-style: italic">a douche bag wanna be will say that he made some go fast wiz-bang state of the art new invention re-invent the wheel boolit launcher.......but no one gives a rats ass what you do......so just sell the shotgun and get what you think you really need</span>
First of all, could you please define, or give an example, of what a "douche bag wanna be" is? I always assumed, with warrant, that any one person, or group of people, who sought to become a douche bag, were, by very nature of the slang term "douche bag," an actual douche bag. Put simply, aspiring to be a douche bag, makes you a douche bag. So, stating that someone is a "douche bag wanna be" is a 'non-sequitor,' which is, you guessed it, a logical fallacy.
Or, did you intend to say, "a douche-bag, wanna-be...."? in this later instance, you really get the full importance of correct punctuation. If this is what you meant, then I can also provide you with grammar help to aide you in avoiding these types of simple mistakes in the future.
Alright, lets move on to the next problem found in the following phrase <span style="font-style: italic">"a douche bag wanna be <span style="font-weight: bold">will say</span> that he" made some go fast wiz-bang state of the art new invention re-invent the wheel boolit launcher</span>. See, here, you are assuming that such a douche bag wanna be will commit some action. Do you have any justification to prove that every 'douche bag wanna be' will always, in every instance of shotgun modifications, say, or project "<span style="font-style: italic">that he made some go fast wiz-bang state of the art new invention re-invent the wheel boolit launcher</span>"? If so, what justifications do you have to make such a universal claim? If not, then would the proper, and much safer, statement be <span style="font-style: italic">"a douche bag wanna be will <span style="font-weight: bold">probably</span> say that he made some go fast wiz-bang state of the art new invention re-invent the wheel boolit launcher"</span>? Though not containing the rhetorical force of the original, the amended statement alleviates the onus to prove an un-proveable universal statement.
Further, "no one gives a rats ass what you do," is an example of one of the most egregious logical fallacies, the existence of a universal negative. See, to refute such a claim that "no one gives a rats ass what you do," all I have to do is ask; Have you talked to every single person in the entire universe regarding their givings of rat's asses related to my question? I doubt that you have. And until you speak to every single person about the issue, you cannot prove that statement.Therefore it is invalid.

Anyway, I'm still looking for constructive ideas.
Thanks.

 

[jacq220]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

constructive ideas. Sell it and get what you need.

constructive critism. I think your idea is a waste of time recources, and doomed for failure.

 

[AdamJacksom]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

quite honestly, I don't see it as "a waste of time resources, and doomed for failure." What is the absolute worst thing that could happen?
I'm unable to fit a box mag to the shotgun?
I acquire major ftf problems?
I acquire major fte problems?
My shotgun is ruined?

I don't see these as problems, more as risks. I think such statements regarding why I shouldn't do it, and why it's a bad idea, arise from differences in perspective and objectives. My main objective is not to have/possess a reliable semi-auto box-mag fed shotgun, that is a byproduct. My main objective is to see if I can do it because it is interesting. In the words of the great home-machinist and author Dave Gingery "Nothing is impossible. You can know what others know, and you can do what others do."
This is my hobby and it's something that I enjoy simply because of the pursuit. I got the same responses when I talked to multiple people about converting a DR-200 to .300 Blk. I had a master machinist tell me that the creation of one needed part was impossible without a mold. 2 hours later, we had a drawing in mastercam producing exactly what I need. Currently, my .300 barrel is due to arrive in 4 or so weeks, the dr-200s gas block has been re-engineered and a few prototypes have been made to try out, and a new handguard mounting bracket should be coming out of the machine shop any day.
I have posted this current topic on other forums as well and garnered much of the same type of response. I've asked for advice, relating to design, and I've received ridicule. Everything from "you're a f***** moron." "no one gives a rat's a** what you do you idiot gun ho", "it's impossible, we're just trying to help you out and save your shotgun" and blah blah blah.
With that said, I actually have a good idea of how such a mod could be accomplished keeping the basic, current, functioning of the shotgun intact and without altering the shotgun irreparably. I'm just looking for some insight from others who think like I do and enjoy a good challenge, and would be willing to share some ideas and consider certain un-convential possibilities.
It truly is amazing how upset people get at others who simply ask questions. If I have unduly offended anybody, I am sorry, but I refuse to accept that "It can't be done"

 

[AdamJacksom]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

also, this;

"...Back in 1981 Glock was producing plastic grenade shells for the Austrian army, in addition to plastic curtain-rod rings. One day he overheard two colonels complain that no gun existed that could meet their specifications. When Glock offered to make one, they laughed at him."

 

[jacq220]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AdamJacksom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">also, this;

"...Back in 1981 Glock was producing plastic grenade shells for the Austrian army, in addition to plastic curtain-rod rings. One day he overheard two colonels complain that no gun existed that could meet their specifications. When Glock offered to make one, they laughed at him." </div></div>

dont you know that glocks go kaboom? maybe they should have stuck to curtain rods (sarcastic)

in a serious response, i think that you get the replies you get because most of us in the gunsmithing field have tried such mods and lost money on it. its tuff for us to envision what you have in your head. If you could produce some blueprint prototype documents to help us understand what your idea is that you think would work maybe we could critique that a bit easier, but asking us to come up w/ an idea about how to do such and extensive thing off the top of our head while typing about it on the internet.... well you will garnish the exact responses you have recieved.

i wish you the best of luck, and hope to see you post your results, whether good or bad, on here so we can all at least learn from it. until then, i still think that you would be wasting your time. and i mean exactly zero disrespect from any of my posts on the matter.

 

[671RTO9513]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

Adam

I'd go for it. Who dares, wins.

If I'd listened to the naysayers 25 years ago, I'd be stuck in a Marxist shithole with a shit job. As it turned out, I went for it and now get paid real money by real people to make the real nice stuff I've always wanted to build.

Most of the opinions you get on the internet are from dicks in their mothers' basement.

Hell, if Frank had listened to them there'd be no Snipershide and he'd still be making midget porn.....

 

[AdamJacksom]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

I appreciate the thought and cordial response. As well as acknowledge my neglect to post dwgs or prints that would aide yall in formulating a constructive response.
Starting off, I realize that any modification to the loading port and shell elevator system will drastically alter the guns reliability and functionality, as well as cause (most likely) irreparable alterations. To bypass this threat, a mosseberg style box mag is where I am heading.
In keeping with that, what if you were able to bypass the magazine spring as well? I think it can be done given the AL390s gas operating rod assembly. If you removed the magazine spring, and fabricated a part that attached to the operating rod that would essentially push the top shell in the mag, from the front, and into/onto the shell elevator as the rod cycled the bolt, I think you'd be in business. You would have to fabricate a custom mag well that would take the place of the current magazine tube and also fabricate a new mag. Of course, you'd also have to determine if the rod had enough force to both cycle the bolt, and feed a fresh shell to the shell elevator. If this turned out to be a problem, a lighter recoil spring might solve this issue.
Just some thoughts, I appreciate you advice.

 

[AdamJacksom]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

Alright, here's the sketch. And it is a VERY VERY ROUGH one at that. But I think it captures the gist of what I'm thinking. as a little explanation, the "operating arm" and what I'm calling the "operating arm sleeve", both travel backwards cycling the bolt and actuating the shell elevator.

The box mag-well, will screw into the receiver just as the current magazine tube does, thus replacing it. Off the end of the new attachment will be a bushing, or guide which will allow the operating arm sleeve to take the same path rearwards during cycling of the gun.

As far as the magazine goes, the mag will look like a standard box mag except a large portion of the top will also be enclosed. Another key diff will be that a section on the back-side of the mag will be missing. Therefore, loading of the mag will happen from the rear, instead of from the top. The tab on top will keep the shell from simply flying out under spring pressure. Also, a portion along the top of the mag will be open the entire length of the mag. Therefore, a shell sitting in the "ready-to-load" position will be completely exposed along it's 9:00 to 12:00 top surface(if looking from the rear). This will allow the tab attached to the operating arm to push the shell rearward into the shell elevator.

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise


Adam. Just do it.

And as for all that other intellectual masturbation: Fussing at another means nothing about the other but means I have made similar errors. In others we see our fears and flaws and we don't like it. In defense, our ego hastens to condemn the other rather than properly condemn itself.

 

[gunnergirl81]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

Hopefully I won't draw fire for this, but I've got my big girl panties (not to be confused with fat chick undies) on and don't let internet jabs get at me.

If you have the background and access to the tools, along with the support of someone with the ability to assist in the design, why not build from scratch? You can skip modifying the shotty in hand and maybe just use the design as functional model to build on.

But in the end, you're asking a question you seem to have already answered in your head. Why?

 

[AdamJacksom]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kenda</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hopefully I won't draw fire for this, but I've got my big girl panties (not to be confused with fat chick undies) on and don't let internet jabs get at me.

If you have the background and access to the tools, along with the support of someone with the ability to assist in the design, why not build from scratch? You can skip modifying the shotty in hand and maybe just use the design as functional model to build on.

But in the end, you're asking a question you seem to have already answered in your head. Why? </div></div>

No, I don't intend on firing upon you. Your first question is valid. I could definitely attempt a build from scratch. But a semi-auto gun is no cake walk. And though I am thought to be crazy for my former ideas, I have no illusions about my current desire to compile the extensive Bill of Materials, design all small components, test tons of various springs, pins, catches. Then go through the design check, part check, test, retest, recheck, redesign,... then redo that for every part, every version of every part, every version of completed sub assembly, and every version of every completed assembly. Then carry out the actual test firing of such a gun. There are stories about Gaston Glock spending years in his basement designing the first Glock 9mm, and for test firing he would always fire with his left hand, so that he could still draw if the gun blew up.

No, I have no current interest a complete ground up semi auto build. I'm much more interested in modifying a current gun I have.

As for your second question, it is true that I had specific ideas related to the direction of the mod before my first post. But I in no way claimed to have answered all the questions related to this. I am convinced that I can access the technical expertise to design certain components needed for the mod. I was mostly interested in hearing if anyone had tried such a mod before and if there was some recorded instances of success/failure attempts. I was also interested in hearing some advise related to the Beretta Al390 common problems or certain parts that were flawed during the mfg. process that could become a potential problem.

 

[phideaux]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AdamJacksom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">also, this;

"...Back in 1981 Glock was producing plastic grenade shells for the Austrian army, in addition to plastic curtain-rod rings. One day he overheard two colonels complain that no gun existed that could meet their specifications. When Glock offered to make one, they laughed at him." </div></div>

I say go for it. if nobody had ever "butchered" a sporting shotgun, we wouldn't have combat shotguns now. sounds to me like you have the knowledge and expertise to make it happen. fuck a bunch of Saiga shotguns, and make your own prototype if you want.

 

[sf88]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: phideaux</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AdamJacksom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">also, this;

"...Back in 1981 Glock was producing plastic grenade shells for the Austrian army, in addition to plastic curtain-rod rings. One day he overheard two colonels complain that no gun existed that could meet their specifications. When Glock offered to make one, they laughed at him." </div></div>

I say go for it. if nobody had ever "butchered" a sporting shotgun, we wouldn't have combat shotguns now. sounds to me like you have the knowledge and expertise to make it happen. fuck a bunch of Saiga shotguns, and make your own prototype if you want. </div></div>

I don't think creating an abortion of a gun out of an old beretta falls under the same category as inventing the glock. OP would be way better off selling and buying something that fits what he wants to do with it.

 

[Mark Housel]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't think creating an abortion of a gun out of an old beretta falls under the same category as inventing the glock. OP would be way better off selling and buying something that fits what he wants to do with it. </div></div>
This was my first thought also.

After reading the rest of the thread, swapping a few PM's, it seems that the projects goal isn't really to have a 'tactical shotty".
But is more of an engineering exercise to see what it would take to make this a mag fed shotgun WITHOUT having to modify the receiver.
Such that the gun can be returned to its original form easily.

As a recovering engineer I suppose I can see the intrigue?

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

some would rather talk than eat young dog.......

 

[jasonZ]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

So are you custom building a mag for this shotgun? That probably presents alot of R&D I'd say, but I could be wrong. I'm not a engineer, a talented writer, or even what people might call a smart person. I'm not going to rag on your idea.

I do purpose this answer to your question of whats the worst that could happen and my answer is simply...well it could blow up in your face! I mean I think that's the worst that could happen.

Now with that said, I'd love to see the end result and how all this turns out. I think if you want to try this then it's your shotgun, your time, your money, and your decision. I would think that if possible though, my suggestion would be to see about using an already fabricated mag and simply an already difficult project. If I understand correctly that the goal is to be able to return the shotgun to functional status if there is a failure and it not be a complete waste of a perfectly good gun, then is it possible to use a mag from something like a Saiga or anything else that would be available in the aftermarket.

I think it should be looked at from a simplistic view and how best can you make it work with things that you wouldn't have to engineer, as most manufactures don't design and engineer things without years of R&D and hence BIG DOLLARS.

Goodluck with your project and keep us posted, Jason

 

[phideaux]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NF1986</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: phideaux</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AdamJacksom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">also, this;

"...Back in 1981 Glock was producing plastic grenade shells for the Austrian army, in addition to plastic curtain-rod rings. One day he overheard two colonels complain that no gun existed that could meet their specifications. When Glock offered to make one, they laughed at him." </div></div>

I say go for it. if nobody had ever "butchered" a sporting shotgun, we wouldn't have combat shotguns now. sounds to me like you have the knowledge and expertise to make it happen. fuck a bunch of Saiga shotguns, and make your own prototype if you want. </div></div>

I don't think creating an abortion of a gun out of an old beretta falls under the same category as inventing the glock. OP would be way better off selling and buying something that fits what he wants to do with it. </div></div>

Glocks are still abortions to lots of people......OP, if John Moses Browning had listened to guys like this^, we probably wouldn't have some of his wonderful toys today. have fun experimenting with your project.

 

[sf88]

Re: Seriously modding a shotgun. Need advise

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: phideaux</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NF1986</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: phideaux</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AdamJacksom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">also, this;

"...Back in 1981 Glock was producing plastic grenade shells for the Austrian army, in addition to plastic curtain-rod rings. One day he overheard two colonels complain that no gun existed that could meet their specifications. When Glock offered to make one, they laughed at him." </div></div>

I say go for it. if nobody had ever "butchered" a sporting shotgun, we wouldn't have combat shotguns now. sounds to me like you have the knowledge and expertise to make it happen. fuck a bunch of Saiga shotguns, and make your own prototype if you want. </div></div>

I don't think creating an abortion of a gun out of an old beretta falls under the same category as inventing the glock. OP would be way better off selling and buying something that fits what he wants to do with it. </div></div>

Glocks are still abortions to lots of people......OP, if John Moses Browning had listened to guys like this^, we probably wouldn't have some of his wonderful toys today. have fun experimenting with your project. </div></div>

That's not really an apples to apples comparison, Gaston Glock and JMB developed systems from scratch with new concepts and well thought out execution. What exactly is similar in these scenarios?