Gunsmithing Setting Head Space with an Empty case?

[CJC73]

Can this be done? Would assume this would be considered a go-gage. How could I turn it into a NO-Go gage?

It's a savage action. I inserted a empty case into the action and screwed barrel down till it hit, backed it off a hair and tightened the nut.

I'm not against renting (or borrowing a set if someone has a set... it's a 325WSM) a set of gages to do a final check. But just wondering.

 

[Mordamer]

You'll get a ton of people on both sides of the fence on this one.

Prepare yourself for all the people claiming you'll blow your face off.

 

[fdkay]

It can be done. Use a full length sized case.
I wouldn't back it off, I would snug it down and leave it there. I prefer minimum headspace.
Put a piece of clear scotch tape on the case head to act as a no go.
I never cared for this method of setting head space.

 

[CJC73]

It can be done. Use a full length sized case.
I wouldn't back it off, I would snug it down and leave it there. I prefer minimum headspace.
Put a piece of clear scotch tape on the case head to act as a no go.
I never cared for this method of setting head space.

So run the case thru a FL sizing die first (makes sense, I think this case was but I'll do it again) and then crank it down?
That's what I thought as well for a no go. Do you prefer using gages themselves?

 

[Snuby642]

If the fire formed case is probably at minumum chamber spec and then you resize it would you not end up with a short chamber?

Also have seen it where people put epoxy in the fire formed case to keep it from being crushed.

 

[Snuby642]

Do you have the go/ nogo dimensions ?

 

[fdkay]

A properly sized case should be to SAAMI specs.
I prefer using gauges.
They can be rented cheap.

 

[CJC73]

A properly sized case should be to SAAMI specs.
I prefer using gauges.
They can be rented cheap.

was my thinking... just was asking the question. a sized case should work but obviously gages are the best way to go.

 

[Snuby642]

A fired case would normally be at the go gage dimension.

A sized case while I'm sure in saami cartridge tolerance is not a go gauge all depends on your bump.

 

[CJC73]

A fired case would normally be at the go gage dimension.

A sized case while I'm sure in saami cartridge tolerance is not a go gauge all depends on your bump.

right, so back it off a hair. that's what i was told to do when i head spaced my 280ai with a set of gages. turn it till it hits then back it off ever so slightly.

 

[Snuby642]

That sounds gtg.

I have noticed brass that is fire formed being right at the go gauge dimensions within 0.0005 on several guns I load for.

If while sizing you bump back 0.002 then you see what my over concern is.

If your formed brass will go in the new chamber that is probably how to replicate it.

The suggestion of filling with an epoxy is to keep from crushing it down.
I have not yet found go / nogo dimensions , it would be nice to know they are normally tighter than saami chamber spec.

 

[Snuby642]

Saami page 214 gauge dimm.

Thats page # in bottom center of page not the pdf page on the side.

My good glasses are missing so best to see for yourself.

 

[...]

i mean....ide rather just buy a go/no-go set for $70 and know its right.....

you can always sell the gauges and recoup most of your money

if i was away at a match, and something happened that i had to swap barrels with minimum tools at my disposal....then yeah, ide probably use a fired case...but if i can do it properly, why wouldnt i?

 

[Steel head]

Totally doable.
I’d put 1 layer of packing tape on the end(.002) as new brass is often .001-.003 under a go gauge, going that route would probe good with all brass sources.

 

[Wannashootit]

Nothing wrong with using a FL sized case on a Savage to set HS.
Set it. Add a piece of cellophane packing tape to the back (trim to fit with razor), adds roughly 3 thou to confirm bolt doesn't fall.

It's not a hardened gage. Make sure bolt is stripped, no FP or ejector that will provide resistance. It's easy to deform that soft brass closing the bolt.

Keep in mind this sets HS to your die- which is fine- but could result in problems chambering any/all factory ammo.

 

[Snuby642]

Much to my dismay saami gives a whopping 0.010 for min - max on the hs gauge dimension.

Actual gauges used are not that large that I have seen.

Most store ammo is way below minimum but recently got some 6.5g that was right up to min, it shot good.

I may be a chicken shit but things that go bang right in front of my face I like to stay within spec.

 

[Ledzep]

Savage Action with a barrel nut, go for it. If you run into new cases or ammo down the road that don't fit you can adjust it again. Every 7 degrees is 0.001".

Head space too tight the only concern is ammo doesn't fit. Head space often has to be over GO .010" or more (usually a lot more) before you run into safety concerns like ruptured cases, blown primers, case head separations, etc. As was mentioned above, ammo is typically .002-.005" under GO to ensure it fits/functions.

ETA: Even if you set head space .020" loose, if you properly fire form the cases and set your FL die up right and ONLY reload for it, you'll just have a .325 WSM-CJC73 Improved. Obviously a little bit redneck, but once it's formed, as long as a .001-.004" shoulder bump is maintained you're achieving the same fit the SAAMI spec. would offer with factory new brass/ammo. Remember your setup just wouldn't conform to SAAMI ammo. Also, if you go too far unscrewing the barrel, you'll expose web material from the breech side, and may eventually rupture a case that way-- or turn your .325 WSM into a belted magnum... Anyway, within reason, there's little risk to using the case as a HS guage. Odds are you'll be tighter than a GO just because cases are on the small side.

 

[microsuck]

The main issue you would run into is if the case is sized right. A re-sized case is dependent in how your die was set. If you use a piece of new brass, not been loaded yet, its less room for error. HS gauges are pretty cheap insurance though.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I have almost always used a piece of brass sized on my equipment. I normally use a .001” shim on the bolt face. I have even set it at 0 and never had an issue. I believe that headspace on the tight side helps with brass life too.

Excessive headspace is more dangerous as less of the case web is supported.

 

[CJC73]

All great info. I'll run some thru the FL sizer and redo the HS, check a few with and without tape on it. I have to install a 280 RCBS barrel for my brother once he buys an action and will use gages for that. I'll rent them and get some 300wsm gages at same time to double check.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I use headspace gauges on guns that might use factory ammunition. If it is only using MY reloads I set it using sized brass.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Yes, you can if you don't have the gauges. It's not rocket science. New case go. Strip of electrical tape cut around nice and neat no go/field.

 

[__JR__]

What's the headspace dimension of the empty case?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Close enough to SAMMI or CIP specs to set headspace.

 

[__JR__]

If you can math, you can order cheap gage balls off amazon and use a depth mic to gage your 'HS'

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Why?

 

[__JR__]

Why?

Why what? If you are rolling your own, then you can make your own gage using a case. You're running your own gamut there. When I fireformed, my headspace was who cares.. If you are shooting factory, you might want to know where your headspace actually is. If you don't want to purchase $100 headspace gages to find out, you can use a precision gage ball to check that dimension and math it out to figure out where you lie in the headspace tolerance. It's called ball checking. One. two. three?

 

[Snuby642]

Interesting, so you order precision balls to datum size?

And then measure to what?

 

[Ledzep]

Depth mic to breech face I'd assume.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Now it is rocket science.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

It's a machinist trick invented by the Egyptians. I looked it up on the Internet. Bone fide.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

@__JR__

Can you post a link to the balls on Amazon?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

home made head space gauge

Any thoughts opinions or advice on the practicality of making a home made head space gauge, or any input on headspacing rifles genaraly that you feel relative whould be nice. thanks ricky.

www.practicalmachinist.com

"From time to time, I've been caught short of a head space zero gage when chambering.
My remedy is to use an appropriate diameter steel ball and do the math. Actually, it's nothing more than a tooling ball. I use this method all the time when fabricating my custom forming dies.

HTH

Alan Warner"

WTC RELOADING DIES - Warner Tool Company

CUSTOM WTCSIZING DIES WTCSEATING DIES WTC SIZING DIES If you’re here, checking out our Custom WTC Sizing Dies, you’ve probably got a high-end target rifle in the safe. Why feed it ammo from a commercial, off-the-shelf die that may or may not yield optimum results for concentricity and brass...

www.warner-tool.com

 

[Alan Warner]

Nice to know a few people pay attention. The rest of ya will have to repeat 8th grade.
Take it lightly, I CANT EVEN BEGIN TO DO ASPHERIC FORMULAS on paper, much less
In my head like a few Guys I know!

 

[338dude]

Can this be done? Would assume this would be considered a go-gage. How could I turn it into a NO-Go gage?

It's a savage action. I inserted a empty case into the action and screwed barrel down till it hit, backed it off a hair and tightened the nut.

I'm not against renting (or borrowing a set if someone has a set... it's a 325WSM) a set of gages to do a final check. But just wondering.

I personally would not do that but you could put a piece of cellophane tape on the base of the case just like you would a go gauge to create a no go gauge

 

[NewsShooter]

This is how I put my first savage barrel on, double checked it with go/no go gauges at a local gunsmith. Worked great.

It can be done. Use a full length sized case.
I wouldn't back it off, I would snug it down and leave it there. I prefer minimum headspace.
Put a piece of clear scotch tape on the case head to act as a no go.
I never cared for this method of setting head space.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Nice to know a few people pay attention. The rest of ya will have to repeat 8th grade.
Take it lightly, I CANT EVEN BEGIN TO DO ASPHERIC FORMULAS on paper, much less
In my head like a few Guys I know!

How is it done? I guess I'm the only one interested.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Don't

I used to recommend using the fired case as the headspace gauge. It was very, very nearly a costly mistake.

I had run a 30BR barrel on my Savage for some time, then replaced the original L-W 260 barrel using an older resized case as the head space gauge. Over the hiatus, I had also decided to use the new 143 ELD-X bullet and in lieu of a Hornady manual, had looked up a likely load on the Hodgdon site. No 143; but 142, I was somewhat familiar with. I loaded up some rounds at what I considered to be a median load.

First round, some bolt lift. Second round, blown primer. I packed it up, ordered proper headspace gauges, and tore down all the rounds

Couple of weeks later, Hodgdon finally listed the 143, and the loads were quite a bit lighter than expected, enough so that I was actually a full 1gr above max.

The following week, I head spaced the barrel all over again, and the proper Go gauge required more headspace, by a fair amount.

Overconfidence was getting me into trouble.

Between the too hot load, and reduced headspace; I had overly souped up the cartridge, and nearly done physical damage to both both my rifle and self. A perfect storm is a perfect storm, and it is in our power to create one at any time. Don't cut corners doing headspacing.

I no longer recommend using a cartridge case to head space a barrel.

Greg

 

[308pirate]

This is beyond stupid. Don't be a cheap ass, have some pride in your work, and buy the right tools for the job.

 

[Alan Warner]

How is it done? I guess I'm the only one interested.

OK,
Start with the diameter at the body/shoulder junction. Lay in a sphere that is known and smaller than that diameter.
Now , do the Trig to determine the distance the center of the ball is below/ or above the body/shoulder line. Now you know from add/ subtract how far it is to the bolt face.
In case you have not realized, you need a reamer drawing for basic dims
Alan

 

[Alan Warner]

OK,
Start with the diameter at the body/shoulder junction. Lay in a sphere that is known and smaller than that diameter.
Now , do the Trig to determine the distance the center of the ball is below/ or above the body/shoulder line. Now you know from add/ subtract how far it is to the bolt face.
In case you have not realized, you need a reamer drawing for basic dims
Alan

Your welcome

 

[Deleted member 10043]

 

[Alan Warner]

View attachment 7390502

Well, thats one way, but good luck finding a ball that diameter. Just use one that is smaller than the junction diameter ---- forget about the head space datum line diameter. Work it from the should/ body junction.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

A little blast from the past...

 

[Alan Warner]

For example,

Well, thats one way, but good luck finding a ball that diameter. Just use one that is smaller than the junction diameter ---- forget about the head space datum line diameter. Work it from the should/ body junction.

Use a 7/16. .4375 diameter in a 308 win.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

That PT&G UNI gauge has a ball at the end of it. They discontinued it.

 

[Alan Warner]

That PT&G UNI gauge has a ball at the end of it. They discontinued it.

That because most don't understand how to do the math, Dave Kiff included. I refuse to use any of his prints. Over the years, iv,e found about a dozen math errors on his reamer drawings.
Head space gage for my 416 Warner is topped off with a .750 sphere.

 

[Deleted member 10043]

Trigonometry was not my finest hour. But the method has merit. I get it now.

 

[Alan Warner]

Trigonometry was not my finest hour. But the method has merit. I get it now.

Good . Your just a little rusty. Use it a few times and it becomes second nature.
I use it every day, so it's a piece of cake.

 

[NewsShooter]

Don't

I used to recommend using the fired case as the headspace gauge. It was very, very nearly a costly mistake.

I had run a 30BR barrel on my Savage for some time, then replaced the original L-W 260 barrel using an older resized case as the head space gauge. Over the hiatus, I had also decided to use the new 143 ELD-X bullet and in lieu of a Hornady manual, had looked up a likely load on the Hodgdon site. No 143; but 142, I was somewhat familiar with. I loaded up some rounds at what I considered to be a median load.

First round, some bolt lift. Second round, blown primer. I packed it up, ordered proper headspace gauges, and tore down all the rounds

Couple of weeks later, Hodgdon finally listed the 143, and the loads were quite a bit lighter than expected, enough so that I was actually a full 1gr above max.

The following week, I head spaced the barrel all over again, and the proper Go gauge required more headspace, by a fair amount.

Overconfidence was getting me into trouble.

Between the too hot load, and reduced headspace; I had overly souped up the cartridge, and nearly done physical damage to both both my rifle and self. A perfect storm is a perfect storm, and it is in our power to create one at any time. Don't cut corners doing headspacing.

I no longer recommend using a cartridge case to head space a barrel.

Greg

Sounds like a hot load was the problem, not the headspace. Did you measure the jump or did you jam the bullet?