Sidearms & Scatterguns SH handgun Dot Torture challenge

[WATERWALKER]

I believe it, it forces you to vice the trigger to rear rather than squeeze it. If that makes sense.

That wasn’t my issue though, a massive flinch got my I called it as soon as the bullet left the gun.

I see flinching quite a bit. The good news is that flinching can be corrected w/ quality dry fire. If it’s not a recurring issue just move on & don’t dwell on it.

I have students that laugh when I instruct floating the pinky. Some don’t need to practice this method, but those who need it & actually practice it reap the benefits.

 

[308pirate]

Gonna have to re-run this now that the P-10F is wearing an RMR. It's gonna take me some time to get used to seeing all the wobbling that I never saw using irons.

 

[WATERWALKER]

I’ve seen more than a few guys think the RDS is a magic pill to cure all their ills. Its not laudanum; it’s a tool to be used like any other. Once you get past picking up the red dot off the draw you’ll be fine. I’ve seen your work @308pirate & you’ve nothing to worry about. You don’t need parlor tricks.

I don’t sweat over the RDS too much. The environment in which I work is pretty dusty & dirty. My concern is that the RDS will become nothing more than a dirt tray when I need it most. The last thing I need is to draw the pistol & find an opaque window that obscures my RDS & my tritium night sights. Eso no es bueno.

 

[308pirate]

Once you get past picking up the red dot off the draw you’ll be fine. I’ve seen your work @308pirate & you’ve nothing to worry about. You don’t need parlor tricks.

My goal is to have reflex sights on all my semiautos, including the one I carry, by the end of the year.

I haven't been able to focus on the front sight clearly for nearly ten years. I've learned workarounds but lately I've found myself capable of shooting faster than my eyes can process what I call a sight picture.

The dot fixes all that. Now vision is no longer a handicap to close in speed and mid range accuracy.

I installed the RMR on Thursday and I'm already 100% picking up the dot in freestyle draw and about 90% on strong hand only draws. My vision deficiency has forced me to develop a really solid index and that's why I've been able to avoid the "hunting for the dot" problem

Right now I need to work on WHO and learn a bit better how to "see what I need to see" when doing fast splits.

 

[WATERWALKER]

This week I started using a new prescription w/ my contacts & progressive lenses in my sunglasses. I’m not so sure it’s going to work, so it’s still tentative whether or not I return to regular glasses / contacts.

I’m still getting used to these new lenses. Once I get behind a rifle & shoot a bit I’ll see whether they’re going to work.

I can’t imagine trying to pick up a RDS right now. I shot a qual course yesterday (360 points) & dropped a total of 9 from 25 yards. That’s not my best work & needless to say I wasn’t pleased w/ the results. Getting older sucks. *On the flip side, nine out of 360 isn’t terrible on turning targets.

 

[308pirate]

I can’t imagine trying to pick up a RDS right now..

What do you mean by that?

 

[WATERWALKER]

Only that I’m having enough trouble adjusting to progressive lenses right now that I don’t need another variable to complicate my life. The RDS can be a badass tool in the right environment. Like any new tool, it may require time & training to master. I certainly didn’t mean anything negative in my comment(s).

 

[308pirate]

Only that I’m having enough trouble adjusting to progressive lenses right now that I don’t need another variable to complicate my life. The RDS can be a badass tool in the right environment. Like any new tool, it may require time & training to master. I certainly didn’t mean anything negative in my comment(s).

Roger that.

What I can suggest is buy a real cheap one just to try it out.

I have significant myopia, some astigmatism, and presbyopia so my lenses are pretty complex. The red dot sight makes presbyopia a non-issue because I don't need to shift focus away from the target for any reason.

So long as your lenses correct any myopia (or hyperopia if you're farsighted) and astigmatism, the red dot will make your life a lot easier.

From the research I've done, they're far more tolerant of abuse and contamination than most assume.

I would have to think that USSOCOM didn't adopt the Trijicon RMR as their handgun optic without significant environmental testing.

 

[bornhunter04]

I did this the other day with new rmr on a g19 and did terrible. But learned about the offset of 147gr ammo with a 25yd zero @ 3 yds. Its about 3.5".....

Will probably switch to 124gr ammo and try again.

One day ill make to the 5yd line .......

 

[Back Spin]

I did this the other day with new rmr on a g19 and did terrible. But learned about the offset of 147gr ammo with a 25yd zero @ 3 yds. Its about 3.5".....

Will probably switch to 124gr ammo and try again.

One day ill make to the 5yd line .......

Is your RMR milled into the slide or do you have a dovetail adaptor? 3.5” offset sounds like too much (that’s even more offset at 3 yards than an AR15).

I’ve remembered shooting an RMR (milled into the slide) as close as 7 yards on a dot, but don’t recall having to offset to hit a dot at 7 vs a bullseye at 25.

(edited because I missed the RMR part)

 

[308pirate]

What height sights are you using? 3.5” offset sounds too much (that’s even more offset at 3 yards than an AR15).

With a 9mm P226 and standard night sights (147 grain ammo) I can tag a 1” dot at 3-5 yards using the same relative POA to hit a 5” circle at 25 yards. Same with my G19 with 147 grain ammo.

My guess is you may be anticipating a bit which is accounting for the dramatic offset you are seeing.

He's using a Trijicon RMR and has it zeroed for 25 yards. Both together likely account for his close range offset.

 

[308pirate]

Speaking of which, I recently put an RMR on my P-10F and need to redo the dot torture with it.

 

[bornhunter04]

Its milled into the slide. When j get tI'll me im going to run 124gr and 147gr at various ranges and zeros to see how much difference there really is.

 

[Back Spin]

Yeah I caught the RMR part after hitting the post button (d’oh!).
Still 3.5 sounds like a lot. A co-worker has a Delta Point Pro on his 320. I’ll have to double check his zero at 25 give it a whirl today at 3 on a dot. I’d be curious if the P210 has a big offset too.

 

[steve123]

Wanted to try some opposites of mine.
A Glock42/380 and a Benelli MP 95 E/22rf with a Fastfire. Both at 5 yards.

Darned if I couldn't shoot the 22rf with RD much better. Going in I thought I'd do significantly better with it, but no, I was shakey and the dot bouncing around all over the place made me lose my confidence somewhat. Looking back I should have shot this pistol first and the Glock afterwards because it seemed I used up my concentration quota up with the little Glock. I had to aim above top of the bull about a 1/2" to hit center with the Benelli which didn't help and it would've been easier I think if I had a small aiming spot in the middle of the bull to aim at.

The Glock sights were right on but I had to strive hard to keep all the shots hitting blue. I knew if I muffed a shot the slightest bit it'd be a miss for sure, even so I was almost out on a half dozen shots! The trigger is heavy, maybe 5lbs??? Squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, then it would finally go off.

 

[Back Spin]

@bornhunter04

I shot my co worker’s P320 with a red dot (DP Pro) milled into the slide. 147 grain ammo.

Verified zero at 25 yards and then shot 1-2 inch dots from 2 to 5 yards. Up close hold over was 1 inch tops.

Photos are rotated to the left. Top square is 5 yards. Bottom square is 2-3 yards.

For the circle, 3 shots to the right are 25 yard zero confirm shots. The rest in the circle are 2-5 yard shots with one 10 yard shot thrown in.

 

[bornhunter04]

Nice!, still need to recheck mine. Have a holosun on a g17 and a new 2020 vp9 so ill do lots of testing, see if i can figure out whats going on.

 

[TACC]

I

Its milled into the slide. When j get tI'll me im going to run 124gr and 147gr at various ranges and zeros to see how much difference there really is.

I run 115, 124, 135 +p, and 147. I don't see any variance to speak of with my RMR. The impact difference between 7 yards and 25 yards is minimal. Yes, I sight mine in at 25 yards.
When I put my omega 9k on it with the 147 there is some poa/poi shift, but very slight with that as well.

All of my RMR's are milled into the slide, G17,G19, G32, Sig 229, and FNH FNS9.

 

[j-moose32]

Shot the dot torture today. I was at an indoor range where the closest marked line was 7 yards so I said F it and went for the 7 instead of guessing at 5 yards. Wasn’t perfect but not as terrible as I thought for not doing it in a bit.

Question for the better shooters than I. After about 100 rounds on the practice range I’ll start anticipating the recoil, where on the first 100 ( rough estimation) I won’t anticipate at all. Any thoughts to rectify? I was planning next time that after every 4 mags or so to do 10 perfect dry fire reps. Lemme know your guys thoughts. Thanks

Oh and for the target I circled the misses and drew a line to where they belong. Or Atleast drew a line to where it belongs

 

[steve123]

Shot the dot torture today. I was at an indoor range where the closest marked line was 7 yards so I said F it and went for the 7 instead of guessing at 5 yards. Wasn’t perfect but not as terrible as I thought for not doing it in a bit.

Question for the better shooters than I. After about 100 rounds on the practice range I’ll start anticipating the recoil, where on the first 100 ( rough estimation) I won’t anticipate at all. Any thoughts to rectify? I was planning next time that after every 4 mags or so to do 10 perfect dry fire reps. Lemme know your guys thoughts. Thanks

Oh and for the target I circled the misses and drew a line to where they belong. Or Atleast drew a line to where it belongs
View attachment 7269203

That's a good idea on the dryfire to re-establish follow through.

All that noise in a indoor range would make me more tired than I normally would outdoors. Hopefully you are doubling up on hearing protection. Everyone has a point where fatigue begins to set in.

 

[Centuriator]

The cool thing about the dot torture if you keep running yourself against a timer, bearing down, you will really be prepping yourself to get effective groups in a real world shooting situation. For instance, look at J-Moose's target and the groups of the rounds, then consider that's on a torso target. Whoever got hit with those groups, even if under spread they double in size, would be having a horrible, no good, rotten day.

 

[j-moose32]

That's a good idea on the dryfire to re-establish follow through.

All that noise in a indoor range would make me more tired than I normally would outdoors. Hopefully you are doubling up on hearing protection. Everyone has a point where fatigue begins to set in.

Yep I always double up now, even outdoors. And it’s weird I don’t think I’d call it fatigue, but I start trying to game the recoil almost to get back on target faster. I have trouble with that a lot when I’m doing timed draws, strings of fire etc. then hit the brakes right to dot torture. That always messes me up good

 

[j-moose32]

The cool thing about the dot torture if you keep running yourself against a timer, bearing down, you will really be prepping yourself to get effective groups in a real world shooting situation. For instance, look at J-Moose's target and the groups of the rounds, then consider that's on a torso target. Whoever got hit with those groups, even if under spread they double in size, would be having a horrible, no good, rotten day.

True I barely shoot torso stuff anymore and forget that’s what it’s all really about, but I wanna clear dot torture ?

 

[Burdy]

Ok, Im in. I want to shoot this with my trusty P365. Ill post up my first and probably horrible result and we will go from there.

 

[Choid]

Four yds with p10c. Only one really poor shot, but still on the line. Old eyes require a colored target.

 

[mattc51]

Bumping up as I am headed to the range to run some of my guns through this and test some new loads for upcoming matches. Manditory 3 week comptime burn has me spending alot of time in the man cave.

I need to slow down. 83.83 secs total shoot time from 5 yards with my dan wesson .45 from 5 yds, threw a few. Also need heavier weight paper as the swc's tore shit up.

 

[PBWalsh]

This drill consistently pisses me off... 96% today. 100% at 3 yards still eludes me.

Yeah... I know I suck

 

[lash]

Only those that can post up a 100% target would have the right to say you suck. Except they already know it is tough, so probably wouldn’t.

 

[PBWalsh]

Dot torture will have to wait now, have to send my x300 back to SF to get it fixed. Guess I'll have a go at it with my P226.

 

[308pirate]

Well I'm back with targets from a new gun and an old gun with a new sight

First the P-10F. I've shot the drill at 5 yards with it before, using a red fiber optic front and plain serrated rear and was able to clean it. Back in January I put an RMR on it to compete in USPSA and IDPA Carry Optics but hadn't gotten around doing the torture with the RMR on it until now.

Only managed a 49 at 5 yards, tossed one high on the weak hand (dot 8)

Here's the target with the gun out of the way

Second gun is my new carry gun. I used to carry a P-07 about six years ago and like a fool traded it for a P-01. Roll fwd six years and after a very successful season in USPSA Production with a P-09 I started thinking I should carry its little brother. So I found a guy had what I wanted and wanted what I had and traded straight across

The high shots on dots 1, 3, and 8 (in dot 5 at 6 o'clock) are all the reason why I'm methodically converting all my pistols to red dot sights. Once my P-09 slide comes back milled for an RMR from DP Customs, the 07 goes next. ETA: the P-07 still has its OEM sights, which are not the easiest for me to work with based on my presbyopia. I think with a red FO up front I would have cleaned it or at worst a 49.

 

[steve123]

I really need to get off my ass and start having RD's put on my pistols. Sure is a lot different shooting with irons than it used to be.

I remember when I was 45 years old and decided I'd go do a USPSA match which I hadn't done in a couple years, I had done many in the past 20 years but got into other things.
I shot a longer stage with a decent amount of paper farther out than normal. At the end of that stage I went to go see how I did as the targets were being scored. I couldn't believe what I saw, I had missed 3 shots, didn't even hit paper! I hadn't done that since I first got into combat pistol shooting when I was in my early 20's! And it wasn't because I was rusty, that just affects my speed not my accuracy.

I got to looking closely and it occured to me that I wasn't seeing the front sight well??? Always before I had perfect vision so this was a shocker to me.
It took some trial and error but a friend suggested I have a prescription lens for my dominant eye and no prescription for my other eye. That worked well and I was back on track again.
Except things are getting pretty pathetic in the eyes department nowadays. My hands are noticeably shakier too. RD's well even with them the dot looks like a red amoeba doing a break dance, lol.

 

[lash]

...RD's well even with them the dot looks like a red amoeba doing a break dance, lol.

Lmao! Great use of words to create a visual!

 

[308pirate]

I'm baaaaaaaaccckkkkk from purgatory, bitches................................

I gave up on P-10s and I gave up on striker fired pistols in general. I FUCKING hate pistol triggers with a hard wall/break. Plus the "ergonomic" grip shape of the P-10 is anything but. Glock got it right with its wide, flat sides on the grip.

So without further ado, here's my ol' trusty P-09 with a sight that I can actually use. This thing is like fucking cheating and it feels like a plastic Shadow. Worst of it is, it's bone fucking stock except for a 15 lb hammer spring and a Glock 17 ISMI flat wire 13 lb recoil spring.

Read 'em and weep

And just to keep it real, a 48 with my old 75BD. I have polished the shit out of the guts and put some CGW goodies in there, I have to admit.

 

[1500varmint]

Nicely done!

 

[Burdy]

I shoot this every week now because of this thread. However, it was a bit boring after the first couple of week so I created a much more fun and challenging way to shoot and score it:

1. 4 mags used is standard. Any number of mags needed less than four, add 3 seconds for each. Any number of mags more than four, subtract 3 seconds for each.
2. Start your shot timer and do not stop the timer for any reason until the 50th shot is fired
3. Shoot the target exactly as described in the directions on the target
4. 45 out of 50 (90% accuracy threshold) or better on the target (5 misses) is the minimum passing score. If less than 45, you failed. If you shoot out of order, you fail.
5. For every miss, add 5 seconds
6. The first number of your score is the yardage, the second number is the total time, plus 5 seconds per miss, plus any magazine adjustment time if needed
7. The lower the score the better.

Shot it this way my first time on Sunday with my P365 and it was much more fun. My score was 3 yards/235.67 (195.67 sec time + 4 misses). Since I passed, I will shoot it this weekend at 4 yards.

 

[308pirate]

I shoot this every week now because of this thread. However, it was a bit boring after the first couple of weeks.......

My solution to boredom is to not shoot it every week. I don't shoot it very often actually. I might go a few months without doing it, then I'll break out several pistols and do it as a tune up or diagnostic with each of them.

This drill has a very limited scope by design: marksmanship fundamentals without regard to time pressure or anything else. You can pile on time limits to try to get better at shooting under pressure, but there are FAR better drills to learn to do that than this one.

There are dozens of those drills in Steve Anderson's and Ben Stoeger's books. Avoid drills pushed by "tactical" pistol trainers. Most of those drills are stupid and ineffective.

 

[Burdy]

My solution to boredom is to not shoot it every week. I don't shoot it very often actually. I might go a few months without doing it, then I'll break out several pistols and do it as a tune up or diagnostic with each of them.

This drill has a very limited scope by design: marksmanship fundamentals without regard to time pressure or anything else. You can pile on time limits to try to get better at shooting under pressure, but there are FAR better drills to learn to do that than this one.

There are dozens of those drills in Steve Anderson's and Ben Stoeger's books. Avoid drills pushed by "tactical" pistol trainers. Most of those drills are stupid and ineffective.

I shoot a lot of different drills. Running dot torture under time pressure really seems to place the emphasis on trigger control under duress. I tend to get sloppy at speed sometimes so I have found it useful.

 

[Burdy]

Untimed 3 yards, P365, 100%

 

[300Norma1959]

I renamed that the "A Drill" because when I see people shooting it I hear "F'ing A" a lot.

 

[PBWalsh]

This drill is the bane of my handgun experience. You get all excited because you hit consistent sub 1 second draws to A zone hits at 7 yards from retention and realize you still suck at shooting paper at 3 yards...

 

[steve123]

What cracks me up is that I get nervous and shaky because I know I'm going to post the pics here and I don't want to miss! If I were relaxed and didn't care I would group the shots in better.

I went to a steel match recently because I thought maybe I could win it and brought my STI 2011 in 40 with 140 pf loads. That was stupid of me to think I could since I never practice and I'm old, etc.

My strategy was to try to not miss so I slowed down to meet that goal. Nope, even though I only missed 5 times in a 120 shot course I ended up 5th, man was I disappointed! I can't shoot fast enough while still hitting reliably anymore!

I'm pretty sure when I was at my peak about 25 years ago I would have easily won! Back then I could mow down a plate rack at 12Y in 3-3.5 seconds. Probably take twice that now??

I still think the red omoeba/RD would have gave me more speed and reduced missing. I was shooting irons.

 

[Burdy]

If your fundamentals are sound this drill is as much mental as it is anything else. How many of you rush to complete despite have no time limit all? You can complete this drill at 3 yards, just slow down. If it doesn't feel right, stop, recompose, breathe and then present back out to the target again. The only part I struggle with from a physical aspect is the one handers. I have a slight essential tremor that really shows up with no support hand as soon as I begin applying pressure to the trigger. There is nothing I can do about but it's the most nerve wracking part of the drill by far. Any other mistake usually shows up at 2 + 2 section where anticipation of recoil will push those second shots low. That goes away if I've done plenty of dry fire for the week.

 

[308pirate]

If your fundamentals are sound this drill is as much mental as it is anything else. How many of you rush to complete despite have no time limit all? You can complete this drill at 3 yards, just slow down. If it doesn't feel right, stop, recompose, breathe and then present back out to the target again. The only part I struggle with from a physical aspect is the one handers. I have a slight essential tremor that really shows up with no support hand as soon as I begin applying pressure to the trigger. There is nothing I can do about but it's the most nerve wracking part of the drill by far. Any other mistake usually shows up at 2 + 2 section where anticipation of recoil will push those second shots low. That goes away if I've done plenty of dry fire for the week.

Outstanding observation. Concur completely.

 

[308pirate]

I still think the red omoeba/RD would have gave me more speed and reduced missing. I was shooting irons.

Get your ass to an optometrist that will fix you up some corrective lenses that will fix your astigmatism.

I did and now all my red dots are crisp and clear, despite the fact that I'm borderline nearly blind without corrective lenses.

With the proper lenses and a reflex sight in front of me now I can shoot to my potential without the handicap of old age.

 

[steve123]

I went to the eye doctor about a year ago and he said I didn't have a astigmatism and that my eyes were in good shape except I needed a new prescription??? It sure doesn't seem that way to me??

Maybe when I get a RD/reflex mounted up I'll make another appointment and ask if I can bring my RD with me for them to figure it all out.

 

[308pirate]

I went to the eye doctor about a year ago and he said I didn't have a astigmatism and that my eyes were in good shape except I needed a new prescription??? It sure doesn't seem that way to me??

Maybe when I get a RD/reflex mounted up I'll make another appointment and ask if I can bring my RD with me for them to figure it all out.

Yes, by all means go find a different DO. Some suck, some are good.

Do not settle when it comes to your vision.

 

[NGCSUGrad09]

Ran this version today. The timer running makes you think about being efficient, but I ran the drill consciously not looking at the timer to get an informed run. Shot it at 4 yards and clean with my Staccato P...making a score of 4 yards/159.40

I shoot this every week now because of this thread. However, it was a bit boring after the first couple of week so I created a much more fun and challenging way to shoot and score it:

1. 4 mags used is standard. Any number of mags needed less than four, add 3 seconds for each. Any number of mags more than four, subtract 3 seconds for each.
2. Start your shot timer and do not stop the timer for any reason until the 50th shot is fired
3. Shoot the target exactly as described in the directions on the target
4. 45 out of 50 (90% accuracy threshold) or better on the target (5 misses) is the minimum passing score. If less than 45, you failed. If you shoot out of order, you fail.
5. For every miss, add 5 seconds
6. The first number of your score is the yardage, the second number is the total time, plus 5 seconds per miss, plus any magazine adjustment time if needed
7. The lower the score the better.

Shot it this way my first time on Sunday with my P365 and it was much more fun. My score was 3 yards/235.67 (195.67 sec time + 4 misses). Since I passed, I will shoot it this weekend at 4 yards.

 

[Burdy]

Ran this version today. The timer running makes you think about being efficient, but I ran the drill consciously not looking at the timer to get an informed run. Shot it at 4 yards and clean with my Staccato P...making a score of 4 yards/159.40





View attachment 7341502

That's awesome

 

[PBWalsh]

It laughs again at me, but I'm getting better. Still need reps on the DA pull for my S2. 96% today from 3 yards. 90% while sprinting, and 86% with my issued G17. All shot with irons.

The 96% target was shot on a SA/striker target, but I shot it as the DA/SA target.

The 90% one as mentioned, was done with sprints. Gives me 19 total 47 yard sprints and forces me to immediately bring my breathing down and place a well aimed shot. My “rest” was jogging back to the 50 yard line. Tiring, but I think realistic and very practical. This was shot as instructed because another guy was running the drill with his G19.

 

[308pirate]

@PBWalsh

• Date shot: 7/16/20
• Make and model of handgun used: CZ P-07
• Target used: TDA dot torture
• Distance shot from: 5 yards
• Score: 50/50
• Pics of target or it didn't happen

• Date shot: 7/16/20
• Make and model of handgun used: CZ P-09 with RMR RM07 (6.5 MOA)
• Target used: TDA dot torture
• Distance shot from: 5 yds
• Score: 49/50 (dropped one on WHO)
• Pics of target or it didn't happen

In my experience, the P-07 and P-09 are the most accurate polymer handguns CZ makes. Noticeably more accurate than the P-10 series (I have two of them), and likely as accurate as an OEM Shadow and possibly a Shadow 2.

The slide to barrel lockup and slide to frame fit of my P-07 and P-09 is crazy tight and something that the P-10 series can't equal with its lack of full length contact between frame and slide.