Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Do you live in a city? I think the police chief can sign your form.
When I went to the sheriff in my county he wanted to know why I needed it. I used the excuse that tactical competitions don't allow muzzle breaks and I shoot a Magnum rifle. He was unaware that cans act as a muzzle break so he signed it.
Do you live in a city? I think the police chief can sign your form.
When I went to the sheriff in my county he wanted to know why I needed it. I used the excuse that tactical competitions don't allow muzzle breaks and I shoot a Magnum rifle. He was unaware that cans act as a muzzle break so he signed it.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Wake County is the same.... Check with member Slug (Dan), he might be able to give you some insights....
Wake County is the same.... Check with member Slug (Dan), he might be able to give you some insights....
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Revocable living trust first , fi that's a no go, LLC.
Revocable living trust first , fi that's a no go, LLC.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Heck, my Sherrif never asked why. They signed it after running a quick computer check on me while another Deputy was doing the prints at $5/card.
ATF has a whole list of folks that can do the CLEO signoff. Try your Police Chief first......
Heck, my Sherrif never asked why. They signed it after running a quick computer check on me while another Deputy was doing the prints at $5/card.
ATF has a whole list of folks that can do the CLEO signoff. Try your Police Chief first......
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Spooledup,
Have you considered a "donation", to the Sheriff's re-election fund? That usually helps "grease the skids" in jurisdictions where the head LEO is elected by popular vote.
Shouldn't have to be that way, but that politics in America in 2009.
Bob
Spooledup,
Have you considered a "donation", to the Sheriff's re-election fund? That usually helps "grease the skids" in jurisdictions where the head LEO is elected by popular vote.
Shouldn't have to be that way, but that politics in America in 2009.
Bob
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Try your police Chief. A trust is always an option...
Try your police Chief. A trust is always an option...
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
I don't know why a trust is a no go, but an LLC is always an option. Then they don't get to say "boo" about it.
Don't try making a "donation" because if he's an ass about the suppressor, more than likely he'll be an ass over a "bribe"
I don't know why a trust is a no go, but an LLC is always an option. Then they don't get to say "boo" about it.
Don't try making a "donation" because if he's an ass about the suppressor, more than likely he'll be an ass over a "bribe"
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Applying for and receiving an 03-C&R license will automatically bypass local and state elected officials in the Class III procedures. What the ATF and FBI think about it may be different, but if you can pass a 4478 to buy a rifle in the first place it should be no problem.
The paperwork actually says that the sheriff is supposed to verify that there is no <span style="text-decoration: underline">legal</span> reason to deny you a class III device, but like so many others they do not bother to read the instructions and reject the requests out of political expediency.
Since you already have your fingerprint cards, there should be no other fees other than the $30.00 licensing fee.
I know you probably do not care whether or not you can get those C&R firearms advertised in SGN at that price shipped to your door, but Caspian, Grafs, Midway and Brownells all give you dealer discounts as a C&R holder and I have saved literally <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Thousands</span></span> of dollars with mine.
Check with the dealer trying to sell you the can, he can help you fill out your forms and ease the way, if not, get another dealer.
Applying for and receiving an 03-C&R license will automatically bypass local and state elected officials in the Class III procedures. What the ATF and FBI think about it may be different, but if you can pass a 4478 to buy a rifle in the first place it should be no problem.
The paperwork actually says that the sheriff is supposed to verify that there is no <span style="text-decoration: underline">legal</span> reason to deny you a class III device, but like so many others they do not bother to read the instructions and reject the requests out of political expediency.
Since you already have your fingerprint cards, there should be no other fees other than the $30.00 licensing fee.
I know you probably do not care whether or not you can get those C&R firearms advertised in SGN at that price shipped to your door, but Caspian, Grafs, Midway and Brownells all give you dealer discounts as a C&R holder and I have saved literally <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Thousands</span></span> of dollars with mine.
Check with the dealer trying to sell you the can, he can help you fill out your forms and ease the way, if not, get another dealer.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Preface: IANAL, this is NOT legal advice and YMMV.
That said, try the Sheriff again. <span style="font-weight: bold">BE CORDIAL</span>, but make sure he understands what he is signing. He is NOT saying you can get the can, he is just saying that he knows of no <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">legitimate</span></span> reason you <span style="font-style: italic">can't</span>. I know that sounds like semantics or whatever, but there are more CLEOs than you might imagine that don't make that distinction. All he is doing is saying that he doesn't know of any reason you shouldn't be allowed to get one. BATFE does the actual check and approval, not the CLEO. Believe it or not, some sheriffs do not know that. If he still won't do it, I believe that the only recourse in NC is a judge/clerk of court. I am not certain of this, but I don't think that a police chief can sign off in NC. If your sheriff won't, you may be able to get a hearing and get the court to sign off.
Trusts/LLCs are a different animal. I know there are many who have used this route successfully for now, and BATFE has accepted them so far. However, technically, there is no mention of either in the NC codes, so it is a gray area that may/may not withstand the test of time. They do offer the advantage of no sign-off, no fingerprints, and reportedly, slightly faster turnover at BATFE (however there are those who are trying to change that).
I don't want to start a shit-storm of folks telling me how legal trusts/LLCs are, I know they work for now - and that <span style="text-decoration: underline">may</span> never change. All I am saying is that if you want to be absolutely covered, try to get a sign-off.
Also, I have sent you a PM with a route more locally tailored to you that may open some doors for you.
Preface: IANAL, this is NOT legal advice and YMMV.
That said, try the Sheriff again. <span style="font-weight: bold">BE CORDIAL</span>, but make sure he understands what he is signing. He is NOT saying you can get the can, he is just saying that he knows of no <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">legitimate</span></span> reason you <span style="font-style: italic">can't</span>. I know that sounds like semantics or whatever, but there are more CLEOs than you might imagine that don't make that distinction. All he is doing is saying that he doesn't know of any reason you shouldn't be allowed to get one. BATFE does the actual check and approval, not the CLEO. Believe it or not, some sheriffs do not know that. If he still won't do it, I believe that the only recourse in NC is a judge/clerk of court. I am not certain of this, but I don't think that a police chief can sign off in NC. If your sheriff won't, you may be able to get a hearing and get the court to sign off.
Trusts/LLCs are a different animal. I know there are many who have used this route successfully for now, and BATFE has accepted them so far. However, technically, there is no mention of either in the NC codes, so it is a gray area that may/may not withstand the test of time. They do offer the advantage of no sign-off, no fingerprints, and reportedly, slightly faster turnover at BATFE (however there are those who are trying to change that).
I don't want to start a shit-storm of folks telling me how legal trusts/LLCs are, I know they work for now - and that <span style="text-decoration: underline">may</span> never change. All I am saying is that if you want to be absolutely covered, try to get a sign-off.
Also, I have sent you a PM with a route more locally tailored to you that may open some doors for you.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Applying for and receiving an 03-C&R license will automatically bypass local and state elected officials in the Class III procedures. What the ATF and FBI think about it may be different, but if you can pass a 4478 to buy a rifle in the first place it should be no problem.
The paperwork actually says that the sheriff is supposed to verify that there is no <span style="text-decoration: underline">legal</span> reason to deny you a class III device, but like so many others they do not bother to read the instructions and reject the requests out of political expediency.
Since you already have your fingerprint cards, there should be no other fees other than the $30.00 licensing fee.
I know you probably do not care whether or not you can get those C&R firearms advertised in SGN at that price shipped to your door, but Caspian, Grafs, Midway and Brownells all give you dealer discounts as a C&R holder and I have saved literally <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Thousands</span></span> of dollars with mine.
Check with the dealer trying to sell you the can, he can help you fill out your forms and ease the way, if not, get another dealer.
</div></div>
I'm a CR holder as well, and it's a great discount machine, plus some of the cool C3 stuff is CR eligible (Reising 50, 55 and Tommy's and BAR's) but it does not preclude you from paying the $200 tax. If you're a CR holder and buy a CR eligible class 3 you still pay the $200 but it can be shipped directly to your front door.
I've been looking into this as I want to get a Reising when I have the money for it.
The CLEO doesn't get a say in your CR application, you simply fill out the form and mail him/her a copy. Also, there's no fingerprint cards required for a CR license, you pay the $30 and wait about 6 weeks for it to show up. Assuming of course you can pass the 447<span style="font-weight: bold">3</span> background check you're good to go.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Applying for and receiving an 03-C&R license will automatically bypass local and state elected officials in the Class III procedures. What the ATF and FBI think about it may be different, but if you can pass a 4478 to buy a rifle in the first place it should be no problem.
The paperwork actually says that the sheriff is supposed to verify that there is no <span style="text-decoration: underline">legal</span> reason to deny you a class III device, but like so many others they do not bother to read the instructions and reject the requests out of political expediency.
Since you already have your fingerprint cards, there should be no other fees other than the $30.00 licensing fee.
I know you probably do not care whether or not you can get those C&R firearms advertised in SGN at that price shipped to your door, but Caspian, Grafs, Midway and Brownells all give you dealer discounts as a C&R holder and I have saved literally <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Thousands</span></span> of dollars with mine.
Check with the dealer trying to sell you the can, he can help you fill out your forms and ease the way, if not, get another dealer.
</div></div>
I'm a CR holder as well, and it's a great discount machine, plus some of the cool C3 stuff is CR eligible (Reising 50, 55 and Tommy's and BAR's) but it does not preclude you from paying the $200 tax. If you're a CR holder and buy a CR eligible class 3 you still pay the $200 but it can be shipped directly to your front door.
I've been looking into this as I want to get a Reising when I have the money for it.
The CLEO doesn't get a say in your CR application, you simply fill out the form and mail him/her a copy. Also, there's no fingerprint cards required for a CR license, you pay the $30 and wait about 6 weeks for it to show up. Assuming of course you can pass the 447<span style="font-weight: bold">3</span> background check you're good to go.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Applying for and receiving an 03-C&R license will automatically bypass local and state elected officials in the Class III procedures. </div></div>
Wherever did you see that?
I've been through this procedure multiple times and never saw that in any publication.
Please point to your source.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Applying for and receiving an 03-C&R license will automatically bypass local and state elected officials in the Class III procedures. </div></div>
Wherever did you see that?
I've been through this procedure multiple times and never saw that in any publication.
Please point to your source.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Here is a really good resource for NC residents that is run by another "Hide" member.
http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/ncnfada/
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We at the NC NFA DA are not attorneys. We would be hesitant to tell anyone whether your "trust" is properly setup or not. You would need an attorney to look at the trust and grade it on its merit. What we do advise however, is that there is NO provision for legal use of a "trust" to own NFA under NC State law. In this case the more Restrictive State statutes over rule Federal law. This is especially true where a "trust" is used specifically to circumvent the CLEO signature requirement. We strongly advise anyone seeking to own NFA items in this state to procure the signature of their resident CLEO. The only exception that we can see for the use of a "trust" is to hold NFA items for underage dependents following the death, or immediately preceding the death (terminal illness) of the current NFA owner, where as the items are properly held by current owner before establishing the trust. Even this is not specifically allowed under the statutes in NC. If you currently hold NFA items via a trust that is setup contrary to these reasons, or in a questionable fashion, it would be in your interest to talk to your CLEO about signing a Form 4 for your item and then transfer it from the trust to yourself and close the trust.</div></div>
It is my understanding the only a Sherriff or Attorney General satisfies the CLEO requirement in NC.
Here is a really good resource for NC residents that is run by another "Hide" member.
http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/ncnfada/
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We at the NC NFA DA are not attorneys. We would be hesitant to tell anyone whether your "trust" is properly setup or not. You would need an attorney to look at the trust and grade it on its merit. What we do advise however, is that there is NO provision for legal use of a "trust" to own NFA under NC State law. In this case the more Restrictive State statutes over rule Federal law. This is especially true where a "trust" is used specifically to circumvent the CLEO signature requirement. We strongly advise anyone seeking to own NFA items in this state to procure the signature of their resident CLEO. The only exception that we can see for the use of a "trust" is to hold NFA items for underage dependents following the death, or immediately preceding the death (terminal illness) of the current NFA owner, where as the items are properly held by current owner before establishing the trust. Even this is not specifically allowed under the statutes in NC. If you currently hold NFA items via a trust that is setup contrary to these reasons, or in a questionable fashion, it would be in your interest to talk to your CLEO about signing a Form 4 for your item and then transfer it from the trust to yourself and close the trust.</div></div>
It is my understanding the only a Sherriff or Attorney General satisfies the CLEO requirement in NC.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DustyJacket</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Applying for and receiving an 03-C&R license will automatically bypass local and state elected officials in the Class III procedures. </div></div>
Wherever did you see that?
I've been through this procedure multiple times and never saw that in any publication.
Please point to your source. </div></div>
This is what I was getting at, I'm almost certain that's not true since I hold a CR license and I can't get an NFA weapon without jumping through the hoops.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DustyJacket</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Applying for and receiving an 03-C&R license will automatically bypass local and state elected officials in the Class III procedures. </div></div>
Wherever did you see that?
I've been through this procedure multiple times and never saw that in any publication.
Please point to your source. </div></div>
This is what I was getting at, I'm almost certain that's not true since I hold a CR license and I can't get an NFA weapon without jumping through the hoops.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Me too. The C&R is require in Missouri for NFA items.
Still need all the steps.
The only way I know of getting out of the CLEO signature is a Trust or LLC.
Me too. The C&R is require in Missouri for NFA items.
Still need all the steps.
The only way I know of getting out of the CLEO signature is a Trust or LLC.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
On a lighter note
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62aGF8G6RM4&feature=related
On a lighter note
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62aGF8G6RM4&feature=related
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trust no photo, no prints, no signoff </div></div>
Definitely the way to go.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trust no photo, no prints, no signoff </div></div>
Definitely the way to go.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
I would go trust/llc and bypass the idiot cleo!
I would go trust/llc and bypass the idiot cleo!
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Applying for and receiving an 03-C&R license will automatically bypass local and state elected officials in the Class III procedures. What the ATF and FBI think about it may be different, but if you can pass a 4478 to buy a rifle in the first place it should be no problem.
The paperwork actually says that the sheriff is supposed to verify that there is no <span style="text-decoration: underline">legal</span> reason to deny you a class III device, but like so many others they do not bother to read the instructions and reject the requests out of political expediency.
Since you already have your fingerprint cards, there should be no other fees other than the $30.00 licensing fee.
</div></div>
This has to be the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Bypassing a background check is not the same as ANYTHING to do with NFA.
"what the ATF thinks may be different"??? WTF is that supposed to mean. In the end, they are the only ones that matter, as they have final say over your can, and will haunt you if you try to screw with them or circumvent them without covering your ass.
C&R is not applicable to NFA items, only class 3 dealer or class 2 SOT, and these are NOT required for owning an NFA firearm or device. However, your transfer will have to go through a dealer3 or sot2. You must still do the form 4 (or form 1 if you are making it on your own, in which case you must submit schematics).
You might be able to skip background checks on a regular rifle with a C&R, but you can do that with a CCW permit, proof of LEO affiliation, etc. in many states, so it's really not something that special. This DOES NOT apply to getting a CLEO signoff on your NFA device, and I doubt that any 3dealer/2sot would honor that as your check at time of delivery, because they have their own laws/forms/records to satisfy. Nobody is going to risk his high-end license by skipping some mundane bullshit.
IF you skip the CLEO, then you had damn well better be on a trust or LLC plan... if not, you'll get your papers back with a big fat "you did it wrong" on them, and you get to do it over. One way or the other, not neither, not both. Get it?
see the NFA act info on the ATF website.
form 4 here: http://www.atfmachinegun.com/form4.pdf
good info:
http://www.class3weapons.com/class_3_faq_class_3_weapons.html
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/form4.html (includes sample trust form 4)
please google: "NFA form 4"
C&R ONLY applies to firearms designated as C&R or Antique. IIRC, it is up to a state to honor that in the case of a background check, same as with CCW and other such proof of legitimacy. Many states won't accept out of state anything without a check, unless your state has reciprocation on CCW, etc. with that state. The C&R is not terribly useful, and I'm not sure that you can even use it in lieu of a check in any situation except an antique.
It's not worth it over a $200 stamp, vs. a felony gun crime. Go trust/LLC and shutdown the CLEO garbage all together. I read the part about the NC trust laws, and you don't want them to back you into a corner, so consider the LLC approach.
READ all the ATF info and info from credible sources like ATF, FBI, class 3 dealers, class 2 SOT and device manufacturers. Breathe it, know it, roll in it. Confirm everything you question with a 3dealer/2sot or with an agent or with someone who has done what you seek to do. Consult an attorney regarding trust/LLC info if you are bogged down in something.
Don't double cross the ATF, it can only lead you to a shitty experience. If your CLEO won't sign the document, consider an attorney general or maybe state patrol or a different LEO department. Personally, I'm glad to live in WY where they don't care what I want to buy, they just sign it. It doesn't hurt to know the sheriff beforehand, lol. But I'd rather have a trust anyway, to eliminate any unwanted attention and preserve my right to own what I want.
Good luck, don't cut any corners or take stupid chances... Remember, the ATF is the same agency that says "N/A" is not an acceptable substitution for a blank, and that postal code is not an acceptable abbreviation. They can write circles around you.
...and for the love of peat, keep that thing under lock and key when not on your person. DO NOT leave an NFA item unattended in a vehicle, or on a bench while you go downrange, to the shitter, whatever. Watch it like a hawk. If you lose it, tell the cops & ATF pronto so you don't get fucked over. Theft happens, they won't blackball you unless something REALLY stupid happened. But you'll never get another if you don't report it and it surfaces in a crime or bust somewhere and you didn't tell them it was gone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cvedrick</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Applying for and receiving an 03-C&R license will automatically bypass local and state elected officials in the Class III procedures. What the ATF and FBI think about it may be different, but if you can pass a 4478 to buy a rifle in the first place it should be no problem.
The paperwork actually says that the sheriff is supposed to verify that there is no <span style="text-decoration: underline">legal</span> reason to deny you a class III device, but like so many others they do not bother to read the instructions and reject the requests out of political expediency.
Since you already have your fingerprint cards, there should be no other fees other than the $30.00 licensing fee.
</div></div>
This has to be the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Bypassing a background check is not the same as ANYTHING to do with NFA.
"what the ATF thinks may be different"??? WTF is that supposed to mean. In the end, they are the only ones that matter, as they have final say over your can, and will haunt you if you try to screw with them or circumvent them without covering your ass.
C&R is not applicable to NFA items, only class 3 dealer or class 2 SOT, and these are NOT required for owning an NFA firearm or device. However, your transfer will have to go through a dealer3 or sot2. You must still do the form 4 (or form 1 if you are making it on your own, in which case you must submit schematics).
You might be able to skip background checks on a regular rifle with a C&R, but you can do that with a CCW permit, proof of LEO affiliation, etc. in many states, so it's really not something that special. This DOES NOT apply to getting a CLEO signoff on your NFA device, and I doubt that any 3dealer/2sot would honor that as your check at time of delivery, because they have their own laws/forms/records to satisfy. Nobody is going to risk his high-end license by skipping some mundane bullshit.
IF you skip the CLEO, then you had damn well better be on a trust or LLC plan... if not, you'll get your papers back with a big fat "you did it wrong" on them, and you get to do it over. One way or the other, not neither, not both. Get it?
see the NFA act info on the ATF website.
form 4 here: http://www.atfmachinegun.com/form4.pdf
good info:
http://www.class3weapons.com/class_3_faq_class_3_weapons.html
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/form4.html (includes sample trust form 4)
please google: "NFA form 4"
C&R ONLY applies to firearms designated as C&R or Antique. IIRC, it is up to a state to honor that in the case of a background check, same as with CCW and other such proof of legitimacy. Many states won't accept out of state anything without a check, unless your state has reciprocation on CCW, etc. with that state. The C&R is not terribly useful, and I'm not sure that you can even use it in lieu of a check in any situation except an antique.
It's not worth it over a $200 stamp, vs. a felony gun crime. Go trust/LLC and shutdown the CLEO garbage all together. I read the part about the NC trust laws, and you don't want them to back you into a corner, so consider the LLC approach.
READ all the ATF info and info from credible sources like ATF, FBI, class 3 dealers, class 2 SOT and device manufacturers. Breathe it, know it, roll in it. Confirm everything you question with a 3dealer/2sot or with an agent or with someone who has done what you seek to do. Consult an attorney regarding trust/LLC info if you are bogged down in something.
Don't double cross the ATF, it can only lead you to a shitty experience. If your CLEO won't sign the document, consider an attorney general or maybe state patrol or a different LEO department. Personally, I'm glad to live in WY where they don't care what I want to buy, they just sign it. It doesn't hurt to know the sheriff beforehand, lol. But I'd rather have a trust anyway, to eliminate any unwanted attention and preserve my right to own what I want.
Good luck, don't cut any corners or take stupid chances... Remember, the ATF is the same agency that says "N/A" is not an acceptable substitution for a blank, and that postal code is not an acceptable abbreviation. They can write circles around you.
...and for the love of peat, keep that thing under lock and key when not on your person. DO NOT leave an NFA item unattended in a vehicle, or on a bench while you go downrange, to the shitter, whatever. Watch it like a hawk. If you lose it, tell the cops & ATF pronto so you don't get fucked over. Theft happens, they won't blackball you unless something REALLY stupid happened. But you'll never get another if you don't report it and it surfaces in a crime or bust somewhere and you didn't tell them it was gone.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: csi:cyberspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trusts/LLCs are a different animal. I know there are many who have used this route successfully for now, and BATFE has accepted them so far. However, technically, there is no mention of either in the NC codes, so it is a gray area that may/may not withstand the test of time.</div></div>
I'm going to pick on this part of your post - it's nothing personal, you're just the latest person I've seen posting it. The NC NFA DA has this crap on their website too:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are several options for ownership, none of them are specifically illegal in NC, that being said, there are no provisions in NC firearms law that specifically state that they are a legal course of NFA ownership either.</div></div>
If something is not illegal, it is legal. Think carefully about what that means.
NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> to say a damn thing about trusts to make them legal. If NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">prohibit</span> them, then they are as legal as breathing air and taking a dump - both of which are not specifically allowed by NC law, either. The state legislature doesn't have to specifically authorize every possible thing a citizen might do in his/her life; in the absence of legal prohibition, any course of action is presumed to be legal. If you meet NFA ownership requirements as listed in NC 14-288.8, but you use a trust to acquire them, the DA will not be able to point to any statute you have violated. Whenever I read the NC NFA DA website I get this mental image of a bunch of FUDDs who want to keep their club exclusive and want to scare people out of NFA ownership in this state.
Further, I am tired of this implication that trusts "might not be legal for long..." Permission for trusts to own NFA items is written into the National Firearms Act itself, and therefore it would take an act of congress to invalidate trusts. There is zero risk that the ATF will release a letter tomorrow saying trusts are no longer valid methods of ownership, because that would be a clear violation of the law.
I will say that machine guns have their own special rules here, and do require permission from the sheriff, but other NFA stuff should be fair game for trust ownership. IANAL blah blah blah.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: csi:cyberspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trusts/LLCs are a different animal. I know there are many who have used this route successfully for now, and BATFE has accepted them so far. However, technically, there is no mention of either in the NC codes, so it is a gray area that may/may not withstand the test of time.</div></div>
I'm going to pick on this part of your post - it's nothing personal, you're just the latest person I've seen posting it. The NC NFA DA has this crap on their website too:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are several options for ownership, none of them are specifically illegal in NC, that being said, there are no provisions in NC firearms law that specifically state that they are a legal course of NFA ownership either.</div></div>
If something is not illegal, it is legal. Think carefully about what that means.
NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> to say a damn thing about trusts to make them legal. If NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">prohibit</span> them, then they are as legal as breathing air and taking a dump - both of which are not specifically allowed by NC law, either. The state legislature doesn't have to specifically authorize every possible thing a citizen might do in his/her life; in the absence of legal prohibition, any course of action is presumed to be legal. If you meet NFA ownership requirements as listed in NC 14-288.8, but you use a trust to acquire them, the DA will not be able to point to any statute you have violated. Whenever I read the NC NFA DA website I get this mental image of a bunch of FUDDs who want to keep their club exclusive and want to scare people out of NFA ownership in this state.
Further, I am tired of this implication that trusts "might not be legal for long..." Permission for trusts to own NFA items is written into the National Firearms Act itself, and therefore it would take an act of congress to invalidate trusts. There is zero risk that the ATF will release a letter tomorrow saying trusts are no longer valid methods of ownership, because that would be a clear violation of the law.
I will say that machine guns have their own special rules here, and do require permission from the sheriff, but other NFA stuff should be fair game for trust ownership. IANAL blah blah blah.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
I concur with the Conqueror 100%.
That group is scaring a lot of people away from NFA in NC. A "defense association" with three members? They aren't even attorneys, are they? Oh yeah, please be sure to send a donation to...
CHRIS
I concur with the Conqueror 100%.
That group is scaring a lot of people away from NFA in NC. A "defense association" with three members? They aren't even attorneys, are they? Oh yeah, please be sure to send a donation to...
CHRIS
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cixelsyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I concur with the Conqueror 100%.
That group is scaring a lot of people away from NFA in NC. A "defense association" with three members? They aren't even attorneys, are they? Oh yeah, please be sure to send a donation to...
CHRIS </div></div>
Best thing for new NC NFA'ers to do is to do the research yourself and go from there. One question about nc, arent the leo's real liberal in that state or is that just a rumor I have heard?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cixelsyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I concur with the Conqueror 100%.
That group is scaring a lot of people away from NFA in NC. A "defense association" with three members? They aren't even attorneys, are they? Oh yeah, please be sure to send a donation to...
CHRIS </div></div>
Best thing for new NC NFA'ers to do is to do the research yourself and go from there. One question about nc, arent the leo's real liberal in that state or is that just a rumor I have heard?
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Depends on the county.
When I spoke to my Sherriff he said he wanted as many law abiding citizens as possible to have guns.
Depends on the county.
When I spoke to my Sherriff he said he wanted as many law abiding citizens as possible to have guns.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Two Sheriffs in my county have signed Form 4's for me. Just had to submit the forms and pick them up a few days later when they were signed.
If I had a non-signer, then the trust thing would have been done.
CHRIS
Two Sheriffs in my county have signed Form 4's for me. Just had to submit the forms and pick them up a few days later when they were signed.
If I had a non-signer, then the trust thing would have been done.
CHRIS
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depends on the county.
When I spoke to my Sherriff he said he wanted as many law abiding citizens as possible to have guns.
</div></div>
Well thats good since I really haven't heard anything good about the signoffs in NC!
fyi, great signature!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depends on the county.
When I spoke to my Sherriff he said he wanted as many law abiding citizens as possible to have guns.
Well thats good since I really haven't heard anything good about the signoffs in NC!
fyi, great signature!
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Yeah, there is wide variation in CLEO attitudes here. I live in a very liberal part of the state and mine has signed; other people have had less luck.
Yeah, there is wide variation in CLEO attitudes here. I live in a very liberal part of the state and mine has signed; other people have had less luck.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, there is wide variation in CLEO attitudes here. I live in a very liberal part of the state and mine has signed; other people have had less luck. </div></div>
Well thats good, mabye soon the rest will follow!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, there is wide variation in CLEO attitudes here. I live in a very liberal part of the state and mine has signed; other people have had less luck. </div></div>
Well thats good, mabye soon the rest will follow!
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Conqueror, thanks for the "breath of fresh air" and voice of reason and knowledge. Your statements are exactly what my research has concluded. I am in process now awaiting my suppressor and ATF approval going the Trust route in NC.
Conqueror, thanks for the "breath of fresh air" and voice of reason and knowledge. Your statements are exactly what my research has concluded. I am in process now awaiting my suppressor and ATF approval going the Trust route in NC.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
YOU WROTE " Whenever I read the NC NFA DA website I get this mental image of a bunch of FUDDs who want to keep their club exclusive and want to scare people out of NFA ownership in this state. "
Further, I am tired of this implication that trusts "might not be legal for long..." Permission for trusts to own NFA items is written into the National Firearms Act itself, and therefore it would take an act of congress to invalidate trusts. There is zero risk that the ATF will release a letter tomorrow saying trusts are no longer valid methods of ownership, because that would be a clear violation of the law.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Well, well, well Conqueror, here I am, one the of "FUDD's" you referred to. Let's get a couple of things straight. 1) NC NFA DA isn't a club, it was formed in 1999 to be a watch dog group for all things NFA in NC and take on a tactical role of changing the laws in NC that involved NCGS 14-288 and 14-409. More specifically to remove the " Permit to possess" requirement listed in 14-409. We are associated with GRNC. I'm sure if you call Paul Valone he can enlighten you.
2) Myself and the others are SOT's in your particular AO, and have been since 1994. So if you think we're into scaring people into not buying C3, then that would absurd, wouldn't it ?
3) I have no law degree, but we have lawyers who assist us. I'm more than certain if you'd like to contact Jim Jefferies about the trust/LLC statement he can use HIS 40+ years of firearm law experience to adjust your thinking. He has a habit of using the "letter of the law vs. the sprit of the law" argument when addressing NFA questions.
You honestly don't think some NC LEO can arrest you for possessing an NFA device that has Trust on the F4? Or that some magistrate can't charge you, or that some lowly little ADA won't smoke you a$$ in court? How much money are you willing to spend to find out. I tell everyone contemplating the trust route, set aside a min of $5k to cover your legal expense just in case. In reality it's more like the $42,000 that a medical professional in Durham had to spend in hiring the best damn firearm's atty we knew( Mark Barnes) so he wouldn't spend several years being someone's prison bitch.
But wait!!!!!! You claim we know nothing and the past 10 years of:
walking the legislative halls in Raleigh for support
attending political BBQ's & fundraisers of people we'd rather not be around
pandering to the NRA(which BTW doesn't give a rat's hairy ass about C3)
traveling around talking to sheriffs throughout the state so they understand C3 owners are the most vigilant and upstanding gun owners around
having knockdown drag outs with DA's over perceived verbiage of the NC General Statutes
Doesn't mean a damn thing to you I guess.
Well sport, I suggest you drag your happy little all knowing self down to 16 West Jones Street Raleigh, NC and put your handle name to something more useful that posting about things you aren't intimately familiar with and go Conquer the NC state legislature.
But if you don't want to waste the time parking and feel your interpretation of the law is correct, give John Aldridge who is the NC Deputy Atty General for Firearm laws a call (919) 716-6400. When you call, make sure you tell him you have a NFA device on a trust and give him your correct address. John is an avid shooter gun owner but gets very passionate about people outside of the requirements set forth in our NC Gen Statutes owning NFA. Let us all know how that turns out.
In 2005 an article in SAR was published about trust ownership. Overnight NC SOT's saw people using quicken trust maker placing orders for SBR's, suppressors etc. This also got the attention of the NC Sheriff's Association. I can tell you first hand because I met with the then President of the NC Sheriff's association and another member, who stated to me " The NC AG's office is aware of the trust loophole and wanted all to understand that those using the trust route to circumvent NC law are setting themselves up for a world of hurt". What most people in NC don't know is that the NC Sheriff's Association is stronger than the NRA lobbyist with regards to firearm laws. Talk the lobbyist, when pissed off, they get their way. For the last 4 yrs at their annual convention they give time to the NC AG's office to discuss firearm issue's and the most amount of time is spent on NFA.
Some CLEOs don't care about NFA and think everyone should own one or a dozen. Those aren't the one's to worry about. The comments we all tell people is that we do not want to see anyone go to jail or through their life savings to defend a trust procured NFA device.
Todd</span>
YOU WROTE " Whenever I read the NC NFA DA website I get this mental image of a bunch of FUDDs who want to keep their club exclusive and want to scare people out of NFA ownership in this state. "
Further, I am tired of this implication that trusts "might not be legal for long..." Permission for trusts to own NFA items is written into the National Firearms Act itself, and therefore it would take an act of congress to invalidate trusts. There is zero risk that the ATF will release a letter tomorrow saying trusts are no longer valid methods of ownership, because that would be a clear violation of the law.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Well, well, well Conqueror, here I am, one the of "FUDD's" you referred to. Let's get a couple of things straight. 1) NC NFA DA isn't a club, it was formed in 1999 to be a watch dog group for all things NFA in NC and take on a tactical role of changing the laws in NC that involved NCGS 14-288 and 14-409. More specifically to remove the " Permit to possess" requirement listed in 14-409. We are associated with GRNC. I'm sure if you call Paul Valone he can enlighten you.
2) Myself and the others are SOT's in your particular AO, and have been since 1994. So if you think we're into scaring people into not buying C3, then that would absurd, wouldn't it ?
3) I have no law degree, but we have lawyers who assist us. I'm more than certain if you'd like to contact Jim Jefferies about the trust/LLC statement he can use HIS 40+ years of firearm law experience to adjust your thinking. He has a habit of using the "letter of the law vs. the sprit of the law" argument when addressing NFA questions.
You honestly don't think some NC LEO can arrest you for possessing an NFA device that has Trust on the F4? Or that some magistrate can't charge you, or that some lowly little ADA won't smoke you a$$ in court? How much money are you willing to spend to find out. I tell everyone contemplating the trust route, set aside a min of $5k to cover your legal expense just in case. In reality it's more like the $42,000 that a medical professional in Durham had to spend in hiring the best damn firearm's atty we knew( Mark Barnes) so he wouldn't spend several years being someone's prison bitch.
But wait!!!!!! You claim we know nothing and the past 10 years of:
walking the legislative halls in Raleigh for support
attending political BBQ's & fundraisers of people we'd rather not be around
pandering to the NRA(which BTW doesn't give a rat's hairy ass about C3)
traveling around talking to sheriffs throughout the state so they understand C3 owners are the most vigilant and upstanding gun owners around
having knockdown drag outs with DA's over perceived verbiage of the NC General Statutes
Doesn't mean a damn thing to you I guess.
Well sport, I suggest you drag your happy little all knowing self down to 16 West Jones Street Raleigh, NC and put your handle name to something more useful that posting about things you aren't intimately familiar with and go Conquer the NC state legislature.
But if you don't want to waste the time parking and feel your interpretation of the law is correct, give John Aldridge who is the NC Deputy Atty General for Firearm laws a call (919) 716-6400. When you call, make sure you tell him you have a NFA device on a trust and give him your correct address. John is an avid shooter gun owner but gets very passionate about people outside of the requirements set forth in our NC Gen Statutes owning NFA. Let us all know how that turns out.
In 2005 an article in SAR was published about trust ownership. Overnight NC SOT's saw people using quicken trust maker placing orders for SBR's, suppressors etc. This also got the attention of the NC Sheriff's Association. I can tell you first hand because I met with the then President of the NC Sheriff's association and another member, who stated to me " The NC AG's office is aware of the trust loophole and wanted all to understand that those using the trust route to circumvent NC law are setting themselves up for a world of hurt". What most people in NC don't know is that the NC Sheriff's Association is stronger than the NRA lobbyist with regards to firearm laws. Talk the lobbyist, when pissed off, they get their way. For the last 4 yrs at their annual convention they give time to the NC AG's office to discuss firearm issue's and the most amount of time is spent on NFA.
Some CLEOs don't care about NFA and think everyone should own one or a dozen. Those aren't the one's to worry about. The comments we all tell people is that we do not want to see anyone go to jail or through their life savings to defend a trust procured NFA device.
Todd</span>
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: csi:cyberspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trusts/LLCs are a different animal. I know there are many who have used this route successfully for now, and BATFE has accepted them so far. However, technically, there is no mention of either in the NC codes, so it is a gray area that may/may not withstand the test of time.</div></div>
I'm going to pick on this part of your post - it's nothing personal, you're just the latest person I've seen posting it. The NC NFA DA has this crap on their website too:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are several options for ownership, none of them are specifically illegal in NC, that being said, there are no provisions in NC firearms law that specifically state that they are a legal course of NFA ownership either.</div></div>
If something is not illegal, it is legal. Think carefully about what that means.
NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> to say a damn thing about trusts to make them legal. If NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">prohibit</span> them, then they are as legal as breathing air and taking a dump - both of which are not specifically allowed by NC law, either. The state legislature doesn't have to specifically authorize every possible thing a citizen might do in his/her life; in the absence of legal prohibition, any course of action is presumed to be legal. If you meet NFA ownership requirements as listed in NC 14-288.8, but you use a trust to acquire them, the DA will not be able to point to any statute you have violated. Whenever I read the NC NFA DA website I get this mental image of a bunch of FUDDs who want to keep their club exclusive and want to scare people out of NFA ownership in this state.
Further, I am tired of this implication that trusts "might not be legal for long..." Permission for trusts to own NFA items is written into the National Firearms Act itself, and therefore it would take an act of congress to invalidate trusts. There is zero risk that the ATF will release a letter tomorrow saying trusts are no longer valid methods of ownership, because that would be a clear violation of the law.
I will say that machine guns have their own special rules here, and do require permission from the sheriff, but other NFA stuff should be fair game for trust ownership. IANAL blah blah blah. </div></div>
+1
Trust are not going anywhere.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: csi:cyberspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trusts/LLCs are a different animal. I know there are many who have used this route successfully for now, and BATFE has accepted them so far. However, technically, there is no mention of either in the NC codes, so it is a gray area that may/may not withstand the test of time.</div></div>
I'm going to pick on this part of your post - it's nothing personal, you're just the latest person I've seen posting it. The NC NFA DA has this crap on their website too:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are several options for ownership, none of them are specifically illegal in NC, that being said, there are no provisions in NC firearms law that specifically state that they are a legal course of NFA ownership either.</div></div>
If something is not illegal, it is legal. Think carefully about what that means.
NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> to say a damn thing about trusts to make them legal. If NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">prohibit</span> them, then they are as legal as breathing air and taking a dump - both of which are not specifically allowed by NC law, either. The state legislature doesn't have to specifically authorize every possible thing a citizen might do in his/her life; in the absence of legal prohibition, any course of action is presumed to be legal. If you meet NFA ownership requirements as listed in NC 14-288.8, but you use a trust to acquire them, the DA will not be able to point to any statute you have violated. Whenever I read the NC NFA DA website I get this mental image of a bunch of FUDDs who want to keep their club exclusive and want to scare people out of NFA ownership in this state.
Further, I am tired of this implication that trusts "might not be legal for long..." Permission for trusts to own NFA items is written into the National Firearms Act itself, and therefore it would take an act of congress to invalidate trusts. There is zero risk that the ATF will release a letter tomorrow saying trusts are no longer valid methods of ownership, because that would be a clear violation of the law.
I will say that machine guns have their own special rules here, and do require permission from the sheriff, but other NFA stuff should be fair game for trust ownership. IANAL blah blah blah. </div></div>
+1
Trust are not going anywhere.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
Had a big long post here but y'know... it's just not worth arguing over.
Had a big long post here but y'know... it's just not worth arguing over.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
I was glad to read it and thought it was very well thought out and informative. I think you should repost it.
I was glad to read it and thought it was very well thought out and informative. I think you should repost it.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If something is not illegal, it is legal. Think carefully about what that means.
NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> to say a damn thing about trusts to make them legal. If NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">prohibit</span> them, then they are as legal as breathing air and taking a dump - both of which are not specifically allowed by NC law, either. The state legislature doesn't have to specifically authorize every possible thing a citizen might do in his/her life; in the absence of legal prohibition, any course of action is presumed to be legal.
</div></div>
Really?
<span style="font-style: italic">
"North Carolina General Statutes § 14-288.8 Manufacture, assembly, possession, storage, transportation, sale, purchase, delivery, or acquisition of weapon of mass death and destruction; exceptions
(a) <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Except as otherwise provided in this section</span></span>, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction."
</span>
Many general statutes are written in this manner, meaning if something is expressly <span style="font-weight: bold">legal</span> then it's <span style="font-weight: bold">illegal</span>. Think about what that means, and then decide whether or not you would like to entrust 20 or so years of your life to some interpretation of something that is not expressly codified. That is all I am saying. The NFA laws require conformance to state laws as well as the fed. otherwise there would be no states that don't allow NFA items. Should NC declare trusts do not meet the letter of STATE law, then as far as NC goes, the statement that "trusts are not going anywhere" is equally erroneous. Just because the feds don't exclude them, doesn't mean an individual state can't.
But you're right, this isn't worth arguing about. I got CLEO sign-off and know I am covered.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Conqueror</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If something is not illegal, it is legal. Think carefully about what that means.
NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> to say a damn thing about trusts to make them legal. If NC law doesn't <span style="font-style: italic">prohibit</span> them, then they are as legal as breathing air and taking a dump - both of which are not specifically allowed by NC law, either. The state legislature doesn't have to specifically authorize every possible thing a citizen might do in his/her life; in the absence of legal prohibition, any course of action is presumed to be legal.
</div></div>
Really?
<span style="font-style: italic">
"North Carolina General Statutes § 14-288.8 Manufacture, assembly, possession, storage, transportation, sale, purchase, delivery, or acquisition of weapon of mass death and destruction; exceptions
(a) <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Except as otherwise provided in this section</span></span>, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction."
</span>
Many general statutes are written in this manner, meaning if something is expressly <span style="font-weight: bold">legal</span> then it's <span style="font-weight: bold">illegal</span>. Think about what that means, and then decide whether or not you would like to entrust 20 or so years of your life to some interpretation of something that is not expressly codified. That is all I am saying. The NFA laws require conformance to state laws as well as the fed. otherwise there would be no states that don't allow NFA items. Should NC declare trusts do not meet the letter of STATE law, then as far as NC goes, the statement that "trusts are not going anywhere" is equally erroneous. Just because the feds don't exclude them, doesn't mean an individual state can't.
But you're right, this isn't worth arguing about. I got CLEO sign-off and know I am covered.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arevalosocom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Revocable living trust first , fi that's a no go, LLC. </div></div>
+1 this is what I did
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Arevalosocom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Revocable living trust first , fi that's a no go, LLC. </div></div>
+1 this is what I did
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in
If you are going to quote NC law, please post the complete law and let the reader come to their own conclusion.
§ 14 288.8. Manufacture, assembly, possession, storage, transportation, sale, purchase, delivery, or acquisition of weapon of mass death and destruction; exceptions.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction.
(b) This section does not apply to:
(1) Persons exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14 269 with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in while carrying out their duties.
(2) Importers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors of firearms, ammunition, or destructive devices validly licensed under the laws of the United States or the State of North Carolina, while lawfully engaged in activities authorized under their licenses.
(3) Persons under contract with the United States, the State of North Carolina, or any agency of either government, with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in under their contracts.
(4) Inventors, designers, ordnance consultants and researchers, chemists, physicists, and other persons lawfully engaged in pursuits designed to enlarge knowledge or to facilitate the creation, development, or manufacture of weapons of mass death and destruction intended for use in a manner consistent with the laws of the United States and the State of North Carolina.
(c) The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" includes:
(1) Any explosive or incendiary:
a. Bomb; or
b. Grenade; or
c. Rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces; or
d. Missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one quarter ounce; or
e. Mine; or
f. Device similar to any of the devices described above; or
(2) Any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell of a type particularly suitable for sporting purposes) which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one half inch in diameter; or
(3) Any firearm capable of fully automatic fire, any shotgun with a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any rifle with a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not such firearm is included within this definition. For the purposes of this section, rifle is defined as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; or
(4) Any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any weapon described above and from which a weapon of mass death and destruction may readily be assembled.
The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" does not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of Title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary of the Treasury finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes, in accordance with Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(d) Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a Class F felony. (1969, c. 869, s. 1; 1975, c. 718, ss. 6, 7; 1977, c. 810; 1983, c. 413, ss. 1, 2; 1993, c. 539, s. 1228; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2001 470, s. 3.)
If you are going to quote NC law, please post the complete law and let the reader come to their own conclusion.
§ 14 288.8. Manufacture, assembly, possession, storage, transportation, sale, purchase, delivery, or acquisition of weapon of mass death and destruction; exceptions.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction.
(b) This section does not apply to:
(1) Persons exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14 269 with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in while carrying out their duties.
(2) Importers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors of firearms, ammunition, or destructive devices validly licensed under the laws of the United States or the State of North Carolina, while lawfully engaged in activities authorized under their licenses.
(3) Persons under contract with the United States, the State of North Carolina, or any agency of either government, with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in under their contracts.
(4) Inventors, designers, ordnance consultants and researchers, chemists, physicists, and other persons lawfully engaged in pursuits designed to enlarge knowledge or to facilitate the creation, development, or manufacture of weapons of mass death and destruction intended for use in a manner consistent with the laws of the United States and the State of North Carolina.
(c) The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" includes:
(1) Any explosive or incendiary:
a. Bomb; or
b. Grenade; or
c. Rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces; or
d. Missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one quarter ounce; or
e. Mine; or
f. Device similar to any of the devices described above; or
(2) Any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell of a type particularly suitable for sporting purposes) which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one half inch in diameter; or
(3) Any firearm capable of fully automatic fire, any shotgun with a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any rifle with a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not such firearm is included within this definition. For the purposes of this section, rifle is defined as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; or
(4) Any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any weapon described above and from which a weapon of mass death and destruction may readily be assembled.
The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" does not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of Title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary of the Treasury finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes, in accordance with Chapter 44 of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(d) Any person who violates any provision of this section is guilty of a Class F felony. (1969, c. 869, s. 1; 1975, c. 718, ss. 6, 7; 1977, c. 810; 1983, c. 413, ss. 1, 2; 1993, c. 539, s. 1228; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c); 2001 470, s. 3.)
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M21 Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are going to quote NC law, please post the complete law and let the reader come to their own conclusion.
</div></div>
You miss the point. I was informed that unless something is expressly illegal, then it is legal. I simply stated that many laws are NOT written to reflect that. In fact, many are written exactly the opposite. Can you point to anything in your posting of the complete law that would contradict my opinion? If not, then quoting the entire law is superfluous now isn't it?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M21 Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are going to quote NC law, please post the complete law and let the reader come to their own conclusion.
</div></div>
You miss the point. I was informed that unless something is expressly illegal, then it is legal. I simply stated that many laws are NOT written to reflect that. In fact, many are written exactly the opposite. Can you point to anything in your posting of the complete law that would contradict my opinion? If not, then quoting the entire law is superfluous now isn't it?
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in
You're playing a semantics game that avoids the point of my previous statement. Let me illustrate:
Law A:
It shall be illegal for convicted felons and domestic abusers to own firearms.
Law B:
Exempting the following people, it is illegal to own firearms.
- People who are not convicted felons
- People who are not domestic abusers
Under both laws, it is expressly illegal for felons and abusers to own guns. Doesn't matter if it's phrased "A then B" or "B then A." All people who are not felons or abusers can own guns, even though it doesn't expressly say that people with parking tickets, misdemeanors, or people who don't wash their hands after shitting may own guns.
Asking whether a trust is legal would be like asking whether dog owners are allowed to own guns under the above laws. It's not covered by the law; dog owners can own guns as long as they are not convicted felons or domestic abusers, even though the law does not directly exempt dog owners. Even though dog owners are not expressly allowed to have guns, it is presumably legal for them to do so as long as they meet the criteria that are actually in the legislation. Similarly, because NC law does not specifically address trusts at all, it is presumably legal to use a trust as long as you meet the actual criteria in 14-288.8.
You're playing a semantics game that avoids the point of my previous statement. Let me illustrate:
Law A:
It shall be illegal for convicted felons and domestic abusers to own firearms.
Law B:
Exempting the following people, it is illegal to own firearms.
- People who are not convicted felons
- People who are not domestic abusers
Under both laws, it is expressly illegal for felons and abusers to own guns. Doesn't matter if it's phrased "A then B" or "B then A." All people who are not felons or abusers can own guns, even though it doesn't expressly say that people with parking tickets, misdemeanors, or people who don't wash their hands after shitting may own guns.
Asking whether a trust is legal would be like asking whether dog owners are allowed to own guns under the above laws. It's not covered by the law; dog owners can own guns as long as they are not convicted felons or domestic abusers, even though the law does not directly exempt dog owners. Even though dog owners are not expressly allowed to have guns, it is presumably legal for them to do so as long as they meet the criteria that are actually in the legislation. Similarly, because NC law does not specifically address trusts at all, it is presumably legal to use a trust as long as you meet the actual criteria in 14-288.8.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in
Wrong. I am not playing a semantics game at all. And I would agree with you <span style="font-style: italic">except</span> for the relevant statement in the code. What I quoted was pretty clear.
<span style="font-style: italic">"(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction."</span>
If not provided in this section, it is unlawful. What's so hard about that? If you choose to <span style="font-style: italic">presume</span> when it comes to things this serious, I would never deprive you of that. In fact, I am finished here.
Wrong. I am not playing a semantics game at all. And I would agree with you <span style="font-style: italic">except</span> for the relevant statement in the code. What I quoted was pretty clear.
<span style="font-style: italic">"(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to manufacture, assemble, possess, store, transport, sell, offer to sell, purchase, offer to purchase, deliver or give to another, or acquire any weapon of mass death and destruction."</span>
If not provided in this section, it is unlawful. What's so hard about that? If you choose to <span style="font-style: italic">presume</span> when it comes to things this serious, I would never deprive you of that. In fact, I am finished here.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in
+1
It's like open carry.
If not written into law that it's illegal, it's by default legal.
+1
It's like open carry.
If not written into law that it's illegal, it's by default legal.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A trust is not a person. Problem solved. </div></div>
Wrong. Sometimes long ago, I posted the federal tax statue that clearly states a trust, llc, and corporation are considered a person for tax purposes and the deal with NFA is the tax for transfer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A trust is not a person. Problem solved. </div></div>
Wrong. Sometimes long ago, I posted the federal tax statue that clearly states a trust, llc, and corporation are considered a person for tax purposes and the deal with NFA is the tax for transfer.
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Person.</span> A partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, as well as a natural person.</div></div>
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Person.</span> A partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, as well as a natural person.</div></div>
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
What would be a first step to setting up this trust here in NC?
What would be a first step to setting up this trust here in NC?
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
See a lawyer - you don't want to mess it up and not know until your form 4 is rejected......
See a lawyer - you don't want to mess it up and not know until your form 4 is rejected......
Re: Sheriff said no can What options do I have in NC
If I call my attorney tomorrow, what exactly am I asking for/ to do? I am still new to supressors and other class 3 weapons here in NC.
ATF form 4?
If I call my attorney tomorrow, what exactly am I asking for/ to do? I am still new to supressors and other class 3 weapons here in NC.
ATF form 4?
