Shilen ratchet barrel - SLOW...?

[DownhillFromHere]

Does anyone have experience comparing velocity with a known lot of ammo in a Shilen ratchet barrel versus barrels from Bartlein, Vudoo/ACE, etc - especially Vudoo/ACE?

I am breaking in a new RimX build and have found the 26" Shilen ratchet barrel to be 50fps slower with my Lapua-tested Center-X compared to my Vudoo with 20" ACE barrel (1029fps vs 1079fps at 54 degrees F.). I have a slow lot of SK Std+ that's even worse: 1013fps with Vudoo/ACE, 956fps in RimX/Shilen (57fps difference). Please note that each lot's ES/SD values are very similar in both rifles; to me that points away from potential ignition issues.

Even allowing for additional length in a new barrel (<350 rounds fired), a 50fps difference seems excessive - I wouldn't even try to run that combination in a match. A buddy of mine has a 26" Proof prefit on his RimX, and that barrel shoots notably faster than his Vudoo with 20" ACE with the same ammo.

I emailed Shilen today - I expect most folks are on vacation this week.

Any knowledgeable feedback will be appreciated.

EDIT: I am an avowed Bartlein fan - because all my custom centerfires have had Bartleins, and @Frank Green contributes regularly to SH. I broke bad with trying a Shilen because another buddy of mine, a well-known gunsmith in our region with rimfire and centerfire benchrest experience (building, competing), put together the exact same RimX action and barrel and it's superbly accurate. Not sure where this journey will lead, but I can't abide keeping a barrel this slow.

 

[Csafisher]

How does it shoot? I went from a 20” to a 24” barrel and lost 20-25fps.

 

[DownhillFromHere]

How does it shoot? I went from a 20” to a 24” barrel and lost 20-25fps.

With my tested lot of Center-X,RimX/Shilen is comparable to Vudoo/Ace at 50 yards. I've shot a few groups at 100 which showed promise (multiple 5-shot groups with 3 rounds in 1/2" followed by 1-2 fliers 3/4" or more away), but 1029fps is too slow to shoot PRS matches with targets at 400 yards. The SK Std+ lot, slow as it is, is accurate enough in my Vudoo for positional practice out to 100 yards. But, in the RimX/Shilen, not only is it slower than an air rifle, I get too many 2-inch "groups" at 50 yards.

 

[RTH1800]

Longer barrels are always slower. They often have lower ES and SD’s as well.

 

[nockhunter]

Longer barrels are always slower. They often have lower ES and SD’s as well.

That is not true.
My sons 22" green mountain barrel Rim-x is fast. It's on the edge of supersonic with most std vel target ammo, (1170fps RWS) sometimes you hear a crack. Every barrel has a personality of its own. There are too many variables in a rimfire barrel/chamber (any barrel), to make a blanket statement like that.

Mike

 

[JBoomhauer]

My 10tw 25.4” Shilen is 1050Fps with Center-X, 1057 w/ Sk Match.

 

[RTH1800]

That is not true.
My sons 22" green mountain barrel Rim-x is fast. It's on the edge of supersonic with most std vel target ammo, (1170fps RWS) sometimes you hear a crack. Every barrel has a personality of its own. There are too many variables in a rimfire barrel/chamber (any barrel), to make a blanket statement like that.

Mike

Ok, your one fucking cheap assed barrel proves I lied contrary to my Chronographing dozens of true match barrels and every research test ever done on RF barrel length and velocity.

The barrel you mention is neither long nor short.

Since you need a detailed explanation. .22 LR RF Barrels will gain speed with match ammunition as the length is shortened from 30” and beyond to somewhere around 15-17”. After somewhere in that range velocity starts dropping again. Cut your speedster and check velocity.

 

[littlepod]

I've noticed that ammo starts to get slower around 20". My 22" and 24" inch barrels shoot the same ammo a little slower.

Additionally barrel length is not the only measure. The chamber and the tightness of the bore also factors in. I had a Benchmark barrel that slugged really tight, and it shot a good 20fps slower than my Bartlein.

Proof barrels are relatively loose, and will shoot ammo faster.

 

[CBeck]

My buddy has the same barrel at like 25 and 3/4 because that’s what it slugged at. It shoots Eley at 1100 and lapua at like 1070.

 

[CBeck]

I had a Benchmark barrel that slugged really tight, and it shot a good 20fps slower than my Bartlein.

Proof barrels are relatively loose, and will shoot ammo faster.

I don’t anything but that’s the opposite of what I would have guessed.

I wonder if you had a 26” barrel but the tightest point in the bore was at 24” would it be slower since you’d give up some pressure for the last couple inches?

 

[littlepod]

I don’t anything but that’s the opposite of what I would have guessed.

I wonder if you had a 26” barrel but the tightest point in the bore was at 24” would it be slower since you’d give up some pressure for the last couple inches?

I'm not sure. I know that when they slug it, they try to cut the crown at the tightest point. So a good gunsmith usually will take a 27" blank and try to find that tightest spot around 23-25"

 

[nockhunter]

Ok, your one fucking cheap assed barrel proves I lied contrary to my Chronographing dozens of true match barrels and every research test ever done on RF barrel length and velocity.

The barrel you mention is neither long nor short.

Since you need a detailed explanation. .22 LR RF Barrels will gain speed with match ammunition as the length is shortened from 30” and beyond to somewhere around 15-17”. After somewhere in that range velocity starts dropping again. Cut your speedster and check velocity.

Ha, one fucking cheap ass barrel. I've had a bunch of cheap ass barrels, that shot fast or slow, and expensive ones also (custom and factory). I've had barrels that wouldn't get close to published, "book" velocity and some that went over.
Only your barrels are the cornerstone for velocity testing? Blanket statements show a closed mind to the variables of manufacturing by humans.
By the way, I never said you lied. It was just the blanket statement. Grow a thicker skin and move on.

Mike

 

[RTH1800]

Not looking for advice from you. The fact is that 22 LR barrels lose velocity with increased length. Your barrel may be fast, or you may have a cheap chronograph to match your barrel. Speed is relative. Your out of spec barrel and or chamber will get faster if you get it shortened. Every single test has proven this. Where you start with speed is individual barrel trait. The fact that all rimfire barrels reach max speed at 15-17" is not.
Now move on before you show more ignorance.

 

[Lastsaint21]

Not looking for advice from you. The fact is that 22 LR barrels lose velocity with increased length. Your barrel may be fast, or you may have a cheap chronograph to match your barrel. Speed is relative. Your out of spec barrel and or chamber will get faster if you get it shortened. Every single test has proven this. Where you start with speed is individual barrel trait. The fact that all rimfire barrels reach max speed at 15-17" is not.
Now move on before you show more ignorance.

That is not entirely true, I just read an article from Applied Ballistics a week or 2 ago that RWS got faster out of a 24'' barrel over a 18'' barrel during their test.. It was on Dec 5th, on their Facebook page. I myself am breaking a brand new Shilen Ratchet R0 24''. I was not on the chrono but I noticed my holds were not far off from my 20'' Ace..I was 6.6 Mils at 200 Temp was like 39 degrees..

 

[grauhanen]

The truth is often what we make it to be.

Barrel length is only one possible factor in ammo speed. Two .22LR barrels that are the same length and from the same manufacturer don't necessarily give the same MV with the same ammo. One could be faster/slower than the other.

Bore characteristics -- such as tighter, looser, smoother, rougher -- will be important in determining ammo average MV.

 

[RTH1800]

That is not entirely true, I just read an article from Applied Ballistics a week or 2 ago that RWS got faster out of a 24'' barrel over a 18'' barrel during their test.. It was on Dec 5th, on their Facebook page. I myself am breaking a brand new Shilen Ratchet R0 24''. I was not on the chrono but I noticed my holds were not far off from my 20'' Ace..I was 6.6 Mils at 200 Temp was like 39 Sdegre

Everyone will agree that barrels will vary in velocity. The fact that one barrel is faster or slower than a similar barrel is not the point. The point is that if that 24" barrel were cut it would get faster in every test I have seen. No reason to think this one would be different.

Again, this is not how fast a barrel is, they vary. The point is that a match .22 RF cartridge runs out of powder at 15-17" and friction takes over. The bullet slows. It's physics, not opinion.

 

[Daniel G. Banting]

I don't have a dog in this but if you have an interest; MDT did a test and video where they shortened a barrel by progressive increments and chronographing the results. You may find the answers you seek.
Best of the Season to all,
Dan

 

[Daniel G. Banting]

Sorry my error. The test was conducted on center fire catridges.

 

[littlesister]

Does anyone have experience comparing velocity with a known lot of ammo in a Shilen ratchet barrel versus barrels from Bartlein, Vudoo/ACE, etc - especially Vudoo/ACE?

I am breaking in a new RimX build and have found the 26" Shilen ratchet barrel to be 50fps slower with my Lapua-tested Center-X compared to my Vudoo with 20" ACE barrel (1029fps vs 1079fps at 54 degrees F.). I have a slow lot of SK Std+ that's even worse: 1013fps with Vudoo/ACE, 956fps in RimX/Shilen (57fps difference). Please note that each lot's ES/SD values are very similar in both rifles; to me that points away from potential ignition issues.View attachment 8033229

Even allowing for additional length in a new barrel (<350 rounds fired), a 50fps difference seems excessive - I wouldn't even try to run that combination in a match. A buddy of mine has a 26" Proof prefit on his RimX, and that barrel shoots notably faster than his Vudoo with 20" ACE with the same ammo.

I emailed Shilen today - I expect most folks are on vacation this week.

Any knowledgeable feedback will be appreciated.

EDIT: I am an avowed Bartlein fan - because all my custom centerfires have had Bartleins, and @Frank Green contributes regularly to SH. I broke bad with trying a Shilen because another buddy of mine, a well-known gunsmith in our region with rimfire and centerfire benchrest experience (building, competing), put together the exact same RimX action and barrel and it's superbly accurate. Not sure where this journey will lead, but I can't abide keeping a barrel this slow.

What are you looking for? A few more FPS or accuracy. Higher speeds don't mean better accuracy .Shilen isn't concerned with your chrono numbers only how accurate the barrel is.

 

[J_D]

I tested a 24" Shilen today from Kenny at DPG in my CZ 457.....with over 600 rds fired from 2 lots of Eley Match and SK Long Rifle......both SD's were single digits and the best barrel I've ever shot. I shot out to 400yds with a group at roughly 3-3.5".

In the end, speed doesn't matter as much as accuracy. I shot with a friend who has a 1:12 vs my 1:16 and we matched speeds pretty much on with my Magneto V3.

Slower doesn't matter.....accuracy does.