Fieldcraft Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

[J.Boyette]

This was part of this class that linedrive301ft asked me to hold for him and his friend Jim ---><span style="font-weight: bold">LINK</span>

You should of been here

I do not want to get in to what I think, I just want to show the picture’s and let them do the talking.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Equipment used</span>
GA Precision .308 rifle
S&B 5-25x50mm riflescope
175 SMK Black Hills factory loaded ammunition.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Door</span>
French door West Palm 72"W Clear Aluminum French Patio Door
Door Material: Aluminum
Glass Type: Clear Glass
Insulation: Tempered

<span style="font-weight: bold">Setup</span>
Target 100yds, Glass door 97yds, aiming point a 2” Shoot N-C dot.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The test:</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">First round down range</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Back Stop</span>

John

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

The Second Shot

John

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

The third Shot

This was taken through the door frame not in the glass.

Thoughts?

John

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

Was the door vertical for the glass shots?

Am I looking at this correctly - shot 1 - separation of jacket; shot 2 it held but keyholed?

Where was head in relation to the portion of the door when the shot through the door was made? Was it above it? (did the bullet rise?)


Good luck

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was the door vertical for the glass shots?

Am I looking at this correctly - shot 1 - separation of jacket; shot 2 it held but keyholed?

Where was head in relation to the portion of the door when the shot through the door was made? Was it above it? (did the bullet rise?)

Good luck </div></div>

MZB,

The lay of the door is as it shows in the picture. On it's side.

I did this to get the most of the glass I could per-shot.

Correct on the 1st and second shot.

If you look at picture 1 and 2 that is the line up for the head shot and how the glass was positioned for all shots.

Hope that helps.

John

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

I guess what I mean is - door was vertical as in 0 degree cant - right?

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

Correct. 0 Deg cant.

John

 

[Insayn]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

How many different types of glass media did you shoot through as well as thicknesses and angles?

 

[drmarc]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

Sierra MKBTHP not so good for glass

 

[Chiller]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

We did a test shot like this with SOT Consulting this past fall. What we were able to determine was there was little to any POI shift. We were shooting single pane glass. I am curious was your glass double pane?

Would like to hear your observations.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

A key factor in the ability to hit a target through glass is how far behind the glass the target is.

If the line of fire is not essentially perpendicular to the surface of the glass, there is usually going to be some deviation of the path of the bullet after it passes through the glass.

Given that, how far behind the glass the target is placed is a critical factor. The farther the bullet has to travel to reach the target, the farther away it will be from the point of aim.

 

[BOLTRIPPER]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

it has been years since i shot through glass....as always this post is an education from a valued member...thanks.

 

[NOMAD]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

Glass shoots to gain information and learn from are far and few between!!

When you get to do it you should collect as much info as possible!!

I have info from shoots in the early 90's.

Here is a collection page we created for the LE/MiL snipers that need to collect this info.

 

[Trovan]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

I took the shots in the the picture. The head shot was taken through the frame with no deviation on the path of the bullet.

I had never done or seen this before. I was amazed at what the glass would do to the bullet while the frame (aluminum with wood core), did nothing observable.

Thanks for setting this up John!!

Great class by the way. Anyone wanting to take a class and work on specific weaknesses that you may have, consider John. He is a great teacher and will customize the class based upon what you want. Great place to shoot as well. Thanks!!! (Track'in me!!!??)

 

[Insayn]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

Lindy is absolutely correct. With the various types of transparent medias out there and the addition of angles and distance from the media you will see variances in the results. We utilize a bonded bullet for just such situations.

 

[pevrs114]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

We did this in the class at Jacksonville PD. We shot through bonded automotive windshields as well as double pane residential window glass

The windshield glass separated the bullet from the jacket, and caused a LOT of collateral damage from secondary glass fragments. The angle of the windshield also caused a POI shift.

The point they made was that if the shot is perpendicular to the windshield, and there's no one behind the target, it's PROBABLY a safe shot. Otherwise, probably not.

The residential glass didn't have nearly the same affect.

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Insayn:
How many different types of glass media did you shoot through as well as thicknesses and angles?</div></div>

We just used the glass in this one door, no real angles other than the 90 deg from the firing line. I got the other door at the range ans can measure it later on if you need that. But I did not do it for this shoot.

Chiller,

Yes it was glass double pane.

Trovan,

great job on shooting that day. I know we all had fun doing this.

My observation is simple. If I am faced with a french door / standard door shoot, I will try to shoot the frame and skip the glass. Or hold out until the target is close to the glass and not use a SMK bullet.

To easy to do that and get around the "issues" glass brings to the table.

John

 

[Kilosierra]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trovan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I took the shots in the the picture. The head shot was taken through the frame with no deviation on the path of the bullet.

I had never done or seen this before. I was amazed at what the glass would do to the bullet while the frame (aluminum with wood core), did nothing observable.</div></div>

I shot ten rounds of American Eagle 50gr. JHP's through a old freezer once at around a 30 deg. angle. All rounds except one made it through the first side of the freezer totally intact with no change in course. A few of the rounds went straight on through both sides of the freezer with very minimal(1-2 deg. at most) if any change in course into a old clothes dryer behind it and tore the interior of it up. A few more went straight through the first side and changed course on the second side of the freezer and still hit the dryer. The one round that changed course on the first side of the freezer broke into two pieces because there were eleven holes in the second side of the freezer. A few of the rounds missed the dryer and I couldn't tell where they went.

 

[Parallax]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

If you want to try something different... obtain one of those new energy efficient glass door panels with the blinds sandwiched between the glass layers. That stuff is getting increasingly popular way "up North" here and I thought I'd find a donor and give it a try. I had several rounds at 100 yards that deflected up to 4 inches on the way through... some not at all. I'd hate to have to guess which shot would... all the straight through and through shots were as near as I could tell exactly parallel to the glass at impact. The more angle the greater the deflection. In fact, as little as 5 degrees of angle made a big difference. I wish I'd have taken pics... video even better.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

I think you need to start a web site called "The French Door of Truth"

In all seriousness, at least contact the Box O Truth guy and have him link to this thread or add it to his site.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

 

[Rookie]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last class

Took a week-long urban sniper school sponsored by Texas Tactical Peace Officers. The last afternoon was spent shooting through different types of glass. The coolist was the 4inch square glass tiles. Interesting to see the difference between anealed and safety glass. Shot through some airplane windows, even that bank glass with metal wire through it. Great school if you can make it.

JD Byas with Dallas PD Swat is a nationally-recognized expert on shooting glass. I think he regularly shares his statistics with other LEOs.

 

[Insayn]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last cla

I work with JD and have been through 3 of his courses, 1 being the same TTPOA Urban School at DFW several years ago. Since we work with him we are always testing and shooting through various glass we encounter here. The last time we shot through train glass, which happen to have a level IIIa laminate and are alwyays hauling cars to the range to shoot. Good stuff.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last cla

tag

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last cla

I have had some calls today about this subject. So I wanted to bring this back up for some members that might not of read it since 2009.

John

 

[TheTick]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last cla

Doesn't some of the deflection have to do with the round fired? At our practices, we have found that our normal duty 168 gr Black Hills AMAX doesn't like the glass as much as the 164 gr Federal Tactical Bonded. It just appeared that the bonded round wasn't deformed as much and travelled more true on account of maintaining its mass.

 

[Guest]

Re: Shooting glass and the findings at my last cla

If you are shooting a .308 or 30-06 an can find the old 180gr Winchester Silvertips,(Red an Yellow box) give them a try. Second best I've ever found. A few years back Winchester came back with Silvertip's (Gray/Silver box?)that looked the same, but I've never shot any of those into glass.