Gunsmithing Short action .284 Win "tactical"l build on a Shilen action/barrel

fryj00

fryj00

Steel punisher
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 11, 2010
122
1
Pittsburgh, PA
#1
I'm going to do a full write-up on this build to share the details with anyone who is interested. Hopefully, my experiences with this might save you some time or help you find a way. I just put the rifle together and load development is soon to follow.

So I shoot tactical comps and was looking to build a second rifle that has a little more "ass" to it than my .308. After a lot of homework, I was convinced that I could do very well with a short action .284 Win that will likely fire 180gr SMK's. Had to be mag-fed, 22-inch barrel (I hate long barrels), and still attain reasonably high velocities. The picture below is the initial build with a Bell & Carlson stock that I bought used from a buddy until the Manners T6-A is delivered later this year.

This is what I've got so far. I'll get into modifications later:

Shilen DGR action with .308 bolt head and pinned .300" recoil lug

Shilen S7 drop-in Savage replacement barrel - 22in., 1-8 twist, 4-groove "ratchet" groove, threaded 5/8x24 and chambered to a dummy cartridge for mag length. .854" just before threads

Shilen competition trigger (you had better mean it when you put your finger on this baby!)

Bell & Carlson Medalist stock (to be replaced with Manners T-6A)

PTG Stealth bottom metal

Accurate Mag .308 mag without the liner - allows for COAL of about 2.960" (leaves .010" clearance)

Northlander precision barrel nut

Shilen scope base with 8/40 screws and double-pinned to receiver

US Optics ER-25 5-25x58 scope with GAP reticle

American Rifle Company 34mm rings (badass!)


That's all I have time for now. More to come with pics.

-Bryan
 

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#2
One modification that I had to make to the action was to mill clearance for the nose of these long rounds into the bottom of the feed ramp. I am using Accurate Mag AICS mags with no liner. The absence of the liner gives an additional .080" of length to the COAL which is important when stuffing a round this size into a short action. The mag opening on the bottom of the DGR action is sized perfectly for the older AICS magazines that have the liner in place - yielding a 2.880 COAL. I have these 180 SMK's seated out to 2.960 so the nose of the bullet was running into the action and preventing the mag from seating properly. I machined a short slot with a 1/8 in. end mill to make room for the nose to pass through. Works perfectly and did not affect feeding in any way. The bullets/cases don't even touch the lower portion of the feed ramp so this was a non issue. Depending on how high your bottom metal holds the magazine, you may have to open the feed lips on the mag slightly to allow the bolt to fully engage the rebated rim of the .284 case.
 

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#6
That's cool. You have any pics of your rig?

I'm a small guy so keeping my rifle compact is important to me. I also run a 18 inch .308 Savage 10FP/McRee with a suppressor. Shorties are more capable than most would believe. In fact, I am expecting to get nearly the speeds that you are out of my .284 (probably around 2800).
 
#11
fryj00 said:
That's cool. You have any pics of your rig?

I'm a small guy so keeping my rifle compact is important to me. I also run a 18 inch .308 Savage 10FP/McRee with a suppressor. Shorties are more capable than most would believe. In fact, I am expecting to get nearly the speeds that you are out of my .284 (probably around 2800).
Click to expand...

Built by Mark Gordon at SAC on Surgeon 1086 action.

 
#13
I'm gonna keep an eye on this thread. I've been contemplating having a 284 barrel spun up for my savage 110 action and putting it in a manners EH stock of some sort for an all purpose rifle to keep at the farm with me that I can still take out west or up north hunting if I ever get the chance.
 
#15
Here is some short barrel load data with 175's. All loads on a charge master than checked on another digital scale so easily within +0 -0.1 of a grain.

I tested three different powders in my 284. 24" barrel, 82 degrees 65% RH - burro canyon, CA - 175 grain SMK's

I tested the 7828 due to quick load, and its fast, but not accurate. at least not in my gun, but its interesting to note the velocities with no pressure issues, just as quick load predicted.


Hodgdon 4831 SC

53.5 G -FPS 2685 2679 2689 2684 - one hole, no tightness in bolt

53.7 G - FPS 2706 2709 2710 - light bolt, accurate

54.0 - FPS - 2714 2714 2718 - some bolt tightness

IMR 7828 SC

55.7 G FPS 2869 2846 2763 very light bolt. erratic groupings, no pressure signs

56.2 G fps 2903 2900 2908 - tight bolt, fliers

56.7 G fps - didn't try it

IMR 4831

52.8 G FPS = 2730 2732 2732 2736 2754 - one hole, no bolt tension

53.3 G fps = 2751 2777 2759 2771 no bolt tension, 1/2 moa

53.8 G fps = 2790 2794 2794 Slight bolt tension, accurate

Reloader 17 - very accurate if temperatures are equal

51.1 g 180 SMK

2777 2780 2779 2802 - this is about max load. When it gets super hot out its a tight bolt indeed and if you let it cook in a hot chamber its problematic
 
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#16
Onehunglow said:
Here is some short barrel load data with 175's. All loads on a charge master than checked on another digital scale so easily within +0 -0.1 of a grain.

I tested three different powders in my 284. 24" barrel, 82 degrees 65% RH - burro canyon, CA - 175 grain SMK's

I tested the 7828 due to quick load, and its fast, but not accurate. at least not in my gun, but its interesting to note the velocities with no pressure issues, just as quick load predicted.


Hodgdon 4831 SC

53.5 G -FPS 2685 2679 2689 2684 - one hole, no tightness in bolt

53.7 G - FPS 2706 2709 2710 - light bolt, accurate

54.0 - FPS - 2714 2714 2718 - some bolt tightness

IMR 7828 SC

55.7 G FPS 2869 2846 2763 very light bolt. erratic groupings, no pressure signs

56.2 G fps 2903 2900 2908 - tight bolt, fliers

56.7 G fps - didn't try it

IMR 4831

52.8 G FPS = 2730 2732 2732 2736 2754 - one hole, no bolt tension

53.3 G fps = 2751 2777 2759 2771 no bolt tension, 1/2 moa

53.8 G fps = 2790 2794 2794 Slight bolt tension, accurate

Reloader 17 - very accurate if temperatures are equal

51.1 g 180 SMK

2777 2780 2779 2802 - this is about max load. When it gets super hot out its a tight bolt indeed and if you let it cook in a hot chamber its problematic
Click to expand...


Thanks for the info. The R17 is right about where I figured it would be and this is what I will be trying next. The test loads are already made...just need time to get to the range. I formed my brass with some 4831 SC this past weekend and got right at 2600 fps our of 53 grains...not impressive.

Speaking of brass, how are you guys sizing your brass? Having issues with doughnuts? Which dies are you using?

Flush cups, muzzle brake, and a thicker recoil pad soon to come!

-Bryan
 
#17
I could get great accuracy out of the H4831sc but could never get great velocity without stressing
The primer pockets in the Lapua brass. I ended up around 56 grains with the 180 VLDs.

I shoot 51.7 grns of RL17 with 175 smk (great bullet) at 2870 fps through my 284 with about 8-10 load lifespan.

The 175's are outstanding to 1500 yds.

RL17 is temp sensitive no matter what most say.

great bullets for this cartridge at LR are 168 VLDs and 162 Amaxes. Great balance between BC and velocity.

I can get the 162's close to 3000 fps with RL17
 
#18
I have a short action 284 (built on an FN SPR action) so I can share a few details with you:

1. Lapua brass is about a 95% no-go. It develops a donut on the first or second firing, and you'll REALLY feel it as you push those long, high-BC bullets deep in the case past the neck/shoulder junction (NSJ). Removing the donut is a huge ordeal. Inside neck reaming only removes some of it, because the brass deflects outward when you attempt to cut it out. You'll need to neck turn, also. I had the best success starting with fresh and unfired Lapua brass, necking up to 7mm, necking up to .30 cal, neck turning and getting into the shoulder a decent bit, then necking back down to 7mm. I recommend you do this to ONE piece, then take it to the range with your loading equipment and firing/reloading/firing/reloading/firing/reloading that ONE piece a number of times to validate your process doesn't give you a donut. If it does, change how much your cutter gets into the neck on a NEW piece and repeat the validation procedure. Once you've begun to develop a donut, it's a royal PITA to get rid of it completely.

2. If you've got a "match" type chamber, get a Redding smallbase die, or you'll get the "click" on boltlift after a firing or two. This is sticky primary extraction, caused by the ass end of the brass not being sized down quite enough. For whatever reason, this is a common thing with 284s. This applies to Lapua and Winchester brass.

3. Winchester brass is of course difficult to get. ~2.5 years ago it was a little scarce, and since then has become unobtainium. Winchester will make it again some day, but until then, you're screwed. I have no experience with Norma or Hornady 6.5-284 brass.

4. My somewhat limited testing indicated to me that 284s are hurt by using short barrels. My original 26" bartlein ran the 175s at ~2725. When I replaced it with a Krieger, I left it full Palma length at first....31", and it ran the 175s at 2900fps. I cut it back to 28" and slowed to just above 2800fps. So my best guess is ~35-50fps per inch. I'm guessing a 22" barrel would get ~2600-2650fps.

5. I use about 54gr of H4831sc, which has been very consistent.

Overall I like the cartridge. It makes a great "all around" rifle, but personally, I think thats the problem with it. For PRS matches, I think it has too much horsepower, and a high velocity 6mm is a better choice because they match the 284 in the wind (to "regular" distances) and are a lot flatter, while producing a LOT less recoil. For very long range stuff, I think the 284 could use more horsepower, and a magnum makes more sense.

Good luck with your project!
 
#19
Why did you go with an 8t?

Mine is a SAC built rig FYI and I believe not only the first .284 to leave his shop but also the first rifle to leave the shop built on his action. I love the thing! :)

I run a .284 in an LA and love it. And it shoots everything great and to whoever said the 175s are good to 1500.. Keep going.. Ive shot them to a mile with zero issues and good accuracy. the 175 SMK transitions really well.
 
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#20
flounderv2 said:
Why did you go with an 8t?

Mine is a SAC built rig FYI and I believe not only the first .284 to leave his shop but also the first rifle to leave the shop built on his action. I love the thing! :)

I run a .284 in an LA and love it. And it shoots everything great and to whoever said the 175s are good to 1500.. Keep going.. Ive shot them to a mile with zero issues and good accuracy. the 175 SMK transitions really well.
Click to expand...

1 in 8 is the twist recommended by Sierra to run the 180 MK.
 
#26
Marksman said:
I've never heard of someone getting doughnuts when necking brass UP. Is this something that happens regularly to 284 shooters?
Click to expand...

Yes.

My understanding is the European brass (Lapua, Norma) begins to thicken right at the NSJ, versus American brass beginning to thicken a little further down the shoulder. I haven't measured this, personally, but I've read it...anyway, when you neck up, a little bit of shoulder becomes neck. If that shoulder material is thicker than the neck material, you've got a donut.

That's the theory.

What ISN'T theory, however, is me having experienced donuts with Lapua 6.5-284 brass necked up for use in my 284.

Note that donuts are of no concern if you don't have to seat your bullet down to or past the NSJ. That means a properly throated long action 284 will not be fucked by donuts.
 
#28
It's not uncommon that the 284 win, necked up from Lapua 6,5-284 brass, gets donuts after being necked up.
Turbo is 100% correct in everything he writes here.

If you're going the 284 win route, just get it into you're case prep to always turn the necks and slightly into the shoulder, to let the excess brass from the shoulder that's moved up during expanding the neck, flow forward into the outside neck instead of making a donut on the inside of the case.
Maybe a donut wont hurt much if the bullets are seated far enough out.
But i don't trust it and belive in turning necks with concentricity will give better results.

The 284 win, is usually not used with minimal neck clearance chambers, as it can give accuracy problems, this also leaves more room for the brass to flow.
Remember a turning tool with a 35 degree angle is needed for the shoulder turning bit.
Follow Turbos instrctions and you will have saved you're self potential problems in a relatively pain free way.
 
#29
Did some quick initial testing with Reloader 17 this evening. I was just trying to zero in quickly on max load. Grouping was not really a concern at this point but I was paying attention. 180 SMK's seated to the lands yielded the following:

48gr - ~2630fps
49gr - ~2670fps
50gr - ~2710fps three shots all touching each other (might have stumbled on a node)
51gr - ~2750fps bolt lift on all three shots felt slightly tighter
52gr - did not fire

Going back tomorrow to try 50 and 51gr again with the bullets seated back .020". I have also have some 150gr Nosler AccuBond Long Range loaded up at 51, 52, and 53 grains. These are seated to mag length which is a huge jump from the lands. They should be fast but I don't know if they'll group. More tomorrow.

-Bryan
 
#30
turbo54 said:
Yes.

My understanding is the European brass (Lapua, Norma) begins to thicken right at the NSJ, versus American brass beginning to thicken a little further down the shoulder. I haven't measured this, personally, but I've read it...anyway, when you neck up, a little bit of shoulder becomes neck. If that shoulder material is thicker than the neck material, you've got a donut.

That's the theory.

What ISN'T theory, however, is me having experienced donuts with Lapua 6.5-284 brass necked up for use in my 284.

Note that donuts are of no concern if you don't have to seat your bullet down to or past the NSJ. That means a properly throated long action 284 will not be fucked by donuts.
Click to expand...

Not to sidetrack this thread, but I'd like to hear a little more on what it takes for case prep. Do you neck turn into the neck on the 6.5x284 brass, then run it through a 284 expander, then re-turn into the neck again?

Also, where in MI do you shoot?
 
#31
Marksman said:
Not to sidetrack this thread, but I'd like to hear a little more on what it takes for case prep. Do you neck turn into the neck on the 6.5x284 brass, then run it through a 284 expander, then re-turn into the neck again?

Also, where in MI do you shoot?
Click to expand...

1. Open fresh box of Lapua 6.5-284 brass.
2. Lubricate inside neck
3. Neck up to 7mm with Sinclair "neck turning" mandrel (bullet diameter minus .002")
4. Neck up to 30cal with Sinclair mandrel
5. Neck turn with a tool with 35° leading edge. The radial depth of cut depends on chamber. Shoot for a minimum of .003" diametral clearance between loaded neck and chamber, more won't hurt. The axial depth of cut is crucial. The cutter must begin to cut into the shoulder a little, thus thinning the shoulder material.
6. Neck down to 7mm

Notes:

Before processing a batch of brass, validate your process won't develop a donut across several firings.

The idea is to push all material outboard so it can be cut off the outside. Reaming depends on hoop strength, of which a .015" thick brass ring has none.

My "home range" is Washtenaw Sportsman's club slightly east of Ann Arbor, though I try to get out and about as much as possible.
 
#34
I've been throwing around the idea of a 284 shehane, My main concern is brass prep. Anyone shooting one? And is the process similar to the above mentioned plus fire forming?
Turbo54 does Washtenaw open to public at all? I'd like to shoot there but work too much to do the mandatory service. I barely get time to shoot let alone volunteer at the range.
 
#35
Twisted300Win MAG said:
Turbo54 does Washtenaw open to public at all? I'd like to shoot there but work too much to do the mandatory service. I barely get time to shoot let alone volunteer at the range.
Click to expand...

Actually, WSC doesn't have mandatory service/work hours....except 4 hours to transition from provisional member to full member.

Once you become provisional, you get an entire year to complete the 4 hours. Plus, the ROs are pretty generous in doling out "hours". For example, we shoot plates with pistols many Sunday mornings. The shooters set up and tear down the plate rack. It takes ~5 minutes to set it up and another 5 to tear down. You'll often be given an hour of credit for helping.

Otherwise, you can volunteer your time to the club for a discount off yearly dues. You can volunteer as much as you like, but maximum discount is $20 for 20 hours...obviously it's a labor of love.

That aside, there is LOTS of shooting open to the public!

During daylight savings time, the 600 yard range is open each Wednesday for practice (with pit service) until 8pm or dusk (whichever comes first). Cost is $5.

March-->November there is a once/month "long range prone" match series.

There are several 3x600 NRA hi power matches where FTR and Fopen shooters can come shoot.

There are several F class only 600 yard matches.

And that is just the rifle stuff! Check out the "events schedule" calendar page @ wsc.org.
 
#38
Yeah, I guess I do. I have done some ammo testing and I can't get the thing to group consistently. Once it shot a 1/2 MOA group and, the next time, the same load shot 2 MOA. The dispersion is pretty random. Since the same load performs differently from one time to the next, I am beginning to suspect the scope has an issue. The weather has gotten crappy and I just feel like putting it down for a while.

One thing I can report on though:

My "seemingly" promising load consists of the 168 gr Berger Classic Hunter Hybrid and 51.0 grains of RL17 and seated -.040". The velocity is right around 2825 fps from my 22-inch barrel. This bullet looks really good and will undoubtedly perform very well once I figure out what the hell is going on. It is .040" short of mag length (2.970) even when seated to my lands with .309 G7 BC.
 
#42
I'm running a .284 SA right now, mostly because a barrel was available for me to use in a match or two until I have the tooling and confidence to cut my own barrel. I managed to find 900 162 Amax's from one lot and my uncle even had 3 fresh bags of Winchester 284 brass.

Load development was short, my goal was 2950 to 3000 fps and submoa accuracy. I loaded a progression using RE17 at 2.95. The very first load, 51.5gr, went 2975 and close to 1/2 moa at 300 yards in running mirage. I shot a couple more loads to make sure I wasn't on the edge of pressure, and stayed at 51.5.

First match is this weekend, we'll see how she does. So far I really like it.
 
#43
Nice RED_SC, that's very encouraging. What Barrel Length are you running? I ran your load thru Quickload plugged a 26" barrel in there (adjusted the weighting factor to .43 as well), and am coming up with 2953fps. So assuming a 26" barrel it looks like QL is pretty darn close.

On a side note, I just started prepping my brass last night, and since I am expanding 6.5-285 Lapua up I followed Turbos Recommendations on how to size up, while trying to reduce the risk of donuts. I did add an additional step, my process was as follows: (please feel free to comment)

1. Open fresh box of Lapua 6.5-284 brass.
2. Square primer pocket & deburr flashole (K&M deburring tool is great (modified it to spin on my RCBS prep station)
3. Lube inside neck & neck up to 7mm with K&M Expanding mandrel
4. Inside neck ream only to remove any donut with K&M neck reamer in the Neck turning tool (removed outside cutter). I found this helped keep the shoulder maintain its shape when expanding up to 30cal. I'm not sure if the shoulder was "buckling" a little on one side when jumping straight to expanding up to 30cal, but it certainly didn't look even on a few cases.
5. Lube inside of neck & neck up to 30cal with K&M Expanding Mandrel
6. "Rough" neck turn with K&M neck Turning Tool & Inside Neck reamer (again to remove any donut) to .014". Using regular 50deg leading edge cutter & stopping right at the neck/should junction.
7. Trim length to just even up the case mouths. I found that after expanding 2X, the case mouth was just a little uneven, which would then change the depth of cut into the shoulder in step 8.
8. "Finish" neck turn with a tool with 35° leading edge (special order from K&M). As Turbo previously noted, the radial depth of cut depends on chamber. Necks finished up at .0125", to give myself .004" clearance (.313" Chamber).
9. Neck down to 7mm: I am going to anneal the cases first, then neck size down, figured the poor brass has been thru a lot at this point. So don't think it can hurt.

The few extra steps took a bit more time, but I got a process down it really sped up. I set up my drill press to 390RPM, and would directly chuck the brass in the press. Spun nice and even, and was quick to load a new case, turn, and remove (less than 1 min total).

Here is a pic I took (mangled the case a bit), I wanted to make sure I wasn't thinning out the brass too much at the N/J, and that I was getting rid of any potential donut. You can see where you can see where the donut used to be. Anyways, just thought I would share.

 
#44
Svendogg said:
Nice RED_SC, that's very encouraging. What Barrel Length are you running? I ran your load thru Quickload plugged a 26" barrel in there (adjusted the weighting factor to .43 as well), and am coming up with 2953fps. So assuming a 26" barrel it looks like QL is pretty darn close.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's a 26".

The brass prep is a pain, hopefully Winchester will make another run of .284 brass before long. Come on Winchester, we need you! I shot the PRS match with it this past weekend, you'd better believe I crawled around and found every piece of that brass.
 
#45
#46
I was able to get to the range and do some testing this weekend. I have been battling with inconsistency issues with this weapon/ammo. I think the rifle is solid now and I have a load that is doing ok. More development to come in that area.

I'm getting 2850fps out of my 22in barrel with 50.4gr of RL17. This is faster than I got previously when measuring but this time I was using a different chrono (CED vs Chrony). Group size is not impressive at the moment (maybe 2/3 - 3/4 moa) but I will continue to whittle away at that and may fore go tiny groups for a little higher velocity. Someone asked about VLD's...I have not used them. Considering that all of this is stuffed into a short action, I don't really have the luxury of magazine space for the lengthy VLD's. The Berger 168 classic hunter is pretty slick and way shorter. In fact, with the bullets seated -.040", I can fit these rounds in a standard AICS mag WITH the binder plate in it. 2.870 I think they come out to.

Recoil is pretty manageable with the one-inch pad and the MRAD brake. I really like the brake, actually. It does a good job at reducing hop and isn't god-awful loud. The PTG bottom metal in the Manners T-6A and the Shilen action all fit well together. I have no issues with feeding.

Hopefully, I can get out to a buddy's house to do some dope verification this weekend and then I shoot in Rayner's match in two weeks. I'll report back the results.
 

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#47
Red_SC said:
Yes, it's a 26".

The brass prep is a pain, hopefully Winchester will make another run of .284 brass before long. Come on Winchester, we need you! I shot the PRS match with it this past weekend, you'd better believe I crawled around and found every piece of that brass.
Click to expand...

I called Winchester a couple of weeks ago and they said 2015 for the next batch.
 
#50
jonesturf said:
What wrong with that? That's only like forever in gun years.

Fryj-Were you using new brass the other day or are you still on the old stuff? You try that out with the suppressor yet?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

Still on the old stuff. Got a new batch on the way. Hopefully this time I'll avoid some of the issues I ran into before.

No can yet. I'm just going to run the brake and leave my can on my .308 for now.
 
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