Just wondering what the biggest differance was between the two, is one better or is it a personal preferance?
Thanks in advance!!
Thanks in advance!!
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Short action VS Long action
- Thread starter SANDEDfaceless
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Re: Short action VS Long action
Difference is in length. Some consider the SA to be more accurate over the LA because of the increased rigidity. The SA is generally used for 308 and smaller cases and the La for longer cases.
Difference is in length. Some consider the SA to be more accurate over the LA because of the increased rigidity. The SA is generally used for 308 and smaller cases and the La for longer cases.
Re: Short action VS Long action
Long actions shoot longer cased rounds such as a 300 win mag. Short action shoot shorter cased rounds such as 308.
Long actions shoot longer cased rounds such as a 300 win mag. Short action shoot shorter cased rounds such as 308.
Re: Short action VS Long action
I have a PBR XP 24in barrel in 308 and I am wanting to get the CDI precision bottom metal for it.
I have a PBR XP 24in barrel in 308 and I am wanting to get the CDI precision bottom metal for it.
Re: Short action VS Long action
I think the question is long action or short action for smaller calibers (e.g. 308). For a 300WM, there is no debate. For 308, 260, even 6.5-284, it is a good question. Some people even steer clear of the 6.5X55 Swede because it requires a long action...
Does it make a difference in accuracy? Is bolt travel an issue? Why not long for everything? I am just trying to steer the conversation in a useful direction.
I think the question is long action or short action for smaller calibers (e.g. 308). For a 300WM, there is no debate. For 308, 260, even 6.5-284, it is a good question. Some people even steer clear of the 6.5X55 Swede because it requires a long action...
Does it make a difference in accuracy? Is bolt travel an issue? Why not long for everything? I am just trying to steer the conversation in a useful direction.
Re: Short action VS Long action
My thoughts
The more I look into long actions the more they seem appealing to me I think the Army may have been onto something with the M24.
Long actions using a magazine system
1) long actions give you more available caliber selection.
2) you are not limited to magazine length for a 308 or other short action calibers Meaning I can use the 155 Scenar and seat them way out their to give me more powder room and velocity, or I can load the heavier bullets (ie.208 amax) in a long action and still have it useable in a magazine without having to push most of the bullet inside the case.
3) As bullets increasingly improve and have higher BC’s they become longer and some of the advantage of the bullet is lost because we have to take away boiler room capacity, long actions are away to offset the longer bullets. Or you have to single load.
4) Longer actions allow for additional safety in as much as it allows a failure to be further away from the shooters face. Nothing like having hot gas blow back because of a ruptured case, if the rupture is further away it may lessens the amount of damage to the shooter. The bolt of a long action is heavier which may further reduce potential injury as it takes more effort over come the additional weight.
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
3) You could ask someone familiar with the M24 system and get their input whether or not they have noticed more failure to feed or stoppages with the long action and magazine system over the short action.
4) Long actions require more movement to manipulate the bolt, which may not be advantages to those that are in stealth environments.
My thoughts
The more I look into long actions the more they seem appealing to me I think the Army may have been onto something with the M24.
Long actions using a magazine system
1) long actions give you more available caliber selection.
2) you are not limited to magazine length for a 308 or other short action calibers Meaning I can use the 155 Scenar and seat them way out their to give me more powder room and velocity, or I can load the heavier bullets (ie.208 amax) in a long action and still have it useable in a magazine without having to push most of the bullet inside the case.
3) As bullets increasingly improve and have higher BC’s they become longer and some of the advantage of the bullet is lost because we have to take away boiler room capacity, long actions are away to offset the longer bullets. Or you have to single load.
4) Longer actions allow for additional safety in as much as it allows a failure to be further away from the shooters face. Nothing like having hot gas blow back because of a ruptured case, if the rupture is further away it may lessens the amount of damage to the shooter. The bolt of a long action is heavier which may further reduce potential injury as it takes more effort over come the additional weight.
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
3) You could ask someone familiar with the M24 system and get their input whether or not they have noticed more failure to feed or stoppages with the long action and magazine system over the short action.
4) Long actions require more movement to manipulate the bolt, which may not be advantages to those that are in stealth environments.
Re: Short action VS Long action
a couple things you said that jumped out at me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
</div></div>
a long action may be less rigid due to the overall length and length of the mag well/ejection port but you also need to consider the longer radius between the front and rear receiver/stock screws and the front ring and rear tang for bedding. i'd say a long action is more rigidly mounted into the stock than a short.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
</div></div>
if a short action and a long action both have the same bolt body to receiver clearance, the long action will have less misalignment at the lugs and bolt face when the bolt is shoved up at one end. if anything, i'd say the long action has greater potential for accuracy in that department.
a couple things you said that jumped out at me.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
</div></div>
a long action may be less rigid due to the overall length and length of the mag well/ejection port but you also need to consider the longer radius between the front and rear receiver/stock screws and the front ring and rear tang for bedding. i'd say a long action is more rigidly mounted into the stock than a short.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
</div></div>
if a short action and a long action both have the same bolt body to receiver clearance, the long action will have less misalignment at the lugs and bolt face when the bolt is shoved up at one end. if anything, i'd say the long action has greater potential for accuracy in that department.
Re: Short action VS Long action
I've got an M24.
Trevor is exactly right about the bolt travel being longer and sloppier. On a SA rifle, with basically the same aspects otherwise on a 700 the bolt will feel tighter and less wobbly than a LA when the bolt is to the rear with most of the bolt body out of the receiver rings.
In terms of feeding, it is sensitive to where the rounds are positioned in the mag box and also to spring strength. A mag spring that is starting to crap out will make your bolt go right over the base of the cartridge even with them fully seated to the rear.
I've got an M24.
Trevor is exactly right about the bolt travel being longer and sloppier. On a SA rifle, with basically the same aspects otherwise on a 700 the bolt will feel tighter and less wobbly than a LA when the bolt is to the rear with most of the bolt body out of the receiver rings.
In terms of feeding, it is sensitive to where the rounds are positioned in the mag box and also to spring strength. A mag spring that is starting to crap out will make your bolt go right over the base of the cartridge even with them fully seated to the rear.
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
</div></div>
The problem with the longer bolt isn't the tolerances when the bolt is locked up, it's that you need to break your cheekweld when you run the bolt.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
</div></div>
The problem with the longer bolt isn't the tolerances when the bolt is locked up, it's that you need to break your cheekweld when you run the bolt.
Re: Short action VS Long action
I can't believe some of the BS being spouted here.
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
"Less rigid" is bullshit. No human can differentiate any rigidity loss and I doubt that even an engineer could show it on a graph. We're talking a 1/4" longer in length of good steel, we're not talking feet.
2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
Again, bullshit. Bolt throw length has zero to do with accuracy. So there are no accurate factory long actions? There are plenty of extremely accurate factory long action rifles. Again, we're talking about a 1/4" in length. The length of the action has nothing to do with accuracy.
3) You could ask someone familiar with the M24 system and get their input whether or not they have noticed more failure to feed or stoppages with the long action and magazine system over the short action.
No, they haven't.
4) Long actions require more movement to manipulate the bolt, which may not be advantages to those that are in stealth environments.
Again, bullshit. The time difference and movement between the two are miniscule at best. In fact, nearly undetectable and the Army proves that on a daily basis. If you're busted because you racked your bolt 1/4" more than you were in a bad spot. You don't have to move your face to rack the bolt, especially if you do it slowly, again as the Army shows.
I can't believe some of the BS being spouted here.
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
"Less rigid" is bullshit. No human can differentiate any rigidity loss and I doubt that even an engineer could show it on a graph. We're talking a 1/4" longer in length of good steel, we're not talking feet.
2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
Again, bullshit. Bolt throw length has zero to do with accuracy. So there are no accurate factory long actions? There are plenty of extremely accurate factory long action rifles. Again, we're talking about a 1/4" in length. The length of the action has nothing to do with accuracy.
3) You could ask someone familiar with the M24 system and get their input whether or not they have noticed more failure to feed or stoppages with the long action and magazine system over the short action.
No, they haven't.
4) Long actions require more movement to manipulate the bolt, which may not be advantages to those that are in stealth environments.
Again, bullshit. The time difference and movement between the two are miniscule at best. In fact, nearly undetectable and the Army proves that on a daily basis. If you're busted because you racked your bolt 1/4" more than you were in a bad spot. You don't have to move your face to rack the bolt, especially if you do it slowly, again as the Army shows.
Re: Short action VS Long action
i agree with mike except for the 1/4" part. the difference is a <span style="font-style: italic">bit</span> more than that
oh, i do have to turn my hat sideways all hip-hop like to clear the bolt when cycling my long actions.
i agree with mike except for the 1/4" part. the difference is a <span style="font-style: italic">bit</span> more than that
oh, i do have to turn my hat sideways all hip-hop like to clear the bolt when cycling my long actions.
Re: Short action VS Long action
I don't have the exact measurement but it's close enough to 1/4" for government work.
I don't have the exact measurement but it's close enough to 1/4" for government work.
Re: Short action VS Long action
Honestly, the M24 is a bad example. They do fail to feed properly IF the mag isn't loaded correctly. But its a 308 in a LA. The short case just doesn't feed as reliably in a LA as it does in a SA.
As far as bolt throw, I think people are using improper terminology. When a LA bolt and a SA bolt are both pulled fully to the rear, it will appear that the LA bolt has more slop in it, even if the tolerances are exactly the same. It is simply because the bolt is acting as a lever and the movement at the end of the LA bolt will appear to be more than a SA bolt simply because the LA bolt is longer. The tolerances are the same.
And I agree with Mike. Good luck determining accuracy differences based on the "rigidity" differences in a LA and a SA. I have a LA chambered in 300 12 EGG Mag and it is the most accurate rifle (outside a purpose built BR rig) that I have. And it is chambered in arguably the most violent 30 cal round available. You'd think that it would fully demonstrate the supposed flexibilty of a LA. Simply not the case.
Honestly, the M24 is a bad example. They do fail to feed properly IF the mag isn't loaded correctly. But its a 308 in a LA. The short case just doesn't feed as reliably in a LA as it does in a SA.
As far as bolt throw, I think people are using improper terminology. When a LA bolt and a SA bolt are both pulled fully to the rear, it will appear that the LA bolt has more slop in it, even if the tolerances are exactly the same. It is simply because the bolt is acting as a lever and the movement at the end of the LA bolt will appear to be more than a SA bolt simply because the LA bolt is longer. The tolerances are the same.
And I agree with Mike. Good luck determining accuracy differences based on the "rigidity" differences in a LA and a SA. I have a LA chambered in 300 12 EGG Mag and it is the most accurate rifle (outside a purpose built BR rig) that I have. And it is chambered in arguably the most violent 30 cal round available. You'd think that it would fully demonstrate the supposed flexibilty of a LA. Simply not the case.
Re: Short action VS Long action
interesting read... never thought about LA mags with the scenars and a .308
Always assumed the .308 was a SA caliber.
interesting read... never thought about LA mags with the scenars and a .308
Always assumed the .308 was a SA caliber.
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't believe some of the BS being spouted here.
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
"Less rigid" is bullshit. No human can differentiate any rigidity loss and I doubt that even an engineer could show it on a graph. We're talking a 1/4" longer in length of good steel, we're not talking feet.
2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
Again, bullshit. Bolt throw length has zero to do with accuracy. So there are no accurate factory long actions? There are plenty of extremely accurate factory long action rifles. Again, we're talking about a 1/4" in length. The length of the action has nothing to do with accuracy.
3) You could ask someone familiar with the M24 system and get their input whether or not they have noticed more failure to feed or stoppages with the long action and magazine system over the short action.
No, they haven't.
4) Long actions require more movement to manipulate the bolt, which may not be advantages to those that are in stealth environments.
Again, bullshit. The time difference and movement between the two are miniscule at best. In fact, nearly undetectable and the Army proves that on a daily basis. If you're busted because you racked your bolt 1/4" more than you were in a bad spot. You don't have to move your face to rack the bolt, especially if you do it slowly, again as the Army shows. </div></div>
Come on Mike, don't mince words......
How do you really feel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't believe some of the BS being spouted here.
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
"Less rigid" is bullshit. No human can differentiate any rigidity loss and I doubt that even an engineer could show it on a graph. We're talking a 1/4" longer in length of good steel, we're not talking feet.
2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
Again, bullshit. Bolt throw length has zero to do with accuracy. So there are no accurate factory long actions? There are plenty of extremely accurate factory long action rifles. Again, we're talking about a 1/4" in length. The length of the action has nothing to do with accuracy.
3) You could ask someone familiar with the M24 system and get their input whether or not they have noticed more failure to feed or stoppages with the long action and magazine system over the short action.
No, they haven't.
4) Long actions require more movement to manipulate the bolt, which may not be advantages to those that are in stealth environments.
Again, bullshit. The time difference and movement between the two are miniscule at best. In fact, nearly undetectable and the Army proves that on a daily basis. If you're busted because you racked your bolt 1/4" more than you were in a bad spot. You don't have to move your face to rack the bolt, especially if you do it slowly, again as the Army shows. </div></div>
Come on Mike, don't mince words......
How do you really feel?
Re: Short action VS Long action
Brand, that's why I was saying bolt travel. On a 700 SA the rear of the bolt is 5 1/2" when it is fully to the rear. On a 700 LA the rear of the bolt is about 6 3/8" with the common point being the rear of the top of the receiver.
What is the correct term rather than throw?
I don't have to reposition my face when cycling the bolt with either the long or short action and I don't think it is going to cause a problem with trying to remain undetected. The travel isn't a whole lot more, but there is more play with the tail of the bolt/bolt handle from what I've seen.
On the M24, because you are loading/firing a SA cartridge in a LA magazine I've had problems with feeding (as have others), usually moreso with bad mag springs. Once the spring is replaced, the action is more forgiving of improperly positioned rounds and it can even feed rounds that aren't fully to the rear.
The bolt slop or wobble that I see is exactly as you describe, and I believe you have the cause correct in that due to the longer length of the bolt and the extent that the LA bolt sticks out of the receiver there is more play at the bolt handle end. However when the bolt is fully in battery I wouldn't say that there is any reduction in accuracy either because of the length of the receiver or whatever.
Brand, that's why I was saying bolt travel. On a 700 SA the rear of the bolt is 5 1/2" when it is fully to the rear. On a 700 LA the rear of the bolt is about 6 3/8" with the common point being the rear of the top of the receiver.
What is the correct term rather than throw?
I don't have to reposition my face when cycling the bolt with either the long or short action and I don't think it is going to cause a problem with trying to remain undetected. The travel isn't a whole lot more, but there is more play with the tail of the bolt/bolt handle from what I've seen.
On the M24, because you are loading/firing a SA cartridge in a LA magazine I've had problems with feeding (as have others), usually moreso with bad mag springs. Once the spring is replaced, the action is more forgiving of improperly positioned rounds and it can even feed rounds that aren't fully to the rear.
The bolt slop or wobble that I see is exactly as you describe, and I believe you have the cause correct in that due to the longer length of the bolt and the extent that the LA bolt sticks out of the receiver there is more play at the bolt handle end. However when the bolt is fully in battery I wouldn't say that there is any reduction in accuracy either because of the length of the receiver or whatever.
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have the exact measurement but it's close enough to 1/4" for government work. </div></div>
i don't have one in front of me at the moment but i would guess it is somewhere around 3/4" to 7/8" longer. comparing 1/4" to 3/4" may very well be close enough for government work
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't have the exact measurement but it's close enough to 1/4" for government work. </div></div>
i don't have one in front of me at the moment but i would guess it is somewhere around 3/4" to 7/8" longer. comparing 1/4" to 3/4" may very well be close enough for government work
Re: Short action VS Long action
Well, I can give you some slightly more exact measurements. The bolt throw on a 700 long action is 4 7/8" from closed to the bolt stop. On a 700 short action it is 4". The difference is 7/8" of an inch, which is the same difference in action overall length.
The one big advantage to a hunter or competition shooter that a short action offers is that you normally do not have to lift your head from the stock when working the bolt. If your scope is set in a fairly normal position and you hold a rifle in a fairly normal position, especially in the prone position, you can work the bolt and it will stop about 1/2" in front of your cheek at max throw, and you do not have to lose your cheekweld or move your head from behind the scope. With a long action the throw is so long that it will hit your cheek at max throw, by around a 1/2" or so, and you must lift your head from the comb to allow the bolt to cycle, and then drop it back and reaquire your sight picture. So, if any kind of rapid fire work is involved, a short action has real advantages.
If the firing cycle is slow and deliberate and you are not stressed for time between shots, then who cares. It really dosn't make any difference.
Well, I can give you some slightly more exact measurements. The bolt throw on a 700 long action is 4 7/8" from closed to the bolt stop. On a 700 short action it is 4". The difference is 7/8" of an inch, which is the same difference in action overall length.
The one big advantage to a hunter or competition shooter that a short action offers is that you normally do not have to lift your head from the stock when working the bolt. If your scope is set in a fairly normal position and you hold a rifle in a fairly normal position, especially in the prone position, you can work the bolt and it will stop about 1/2" in front of your cheek at max throw, and you do not have to lose your cheekweld or move your head from behind the scope. With a long action the throw is so long that it will hit your cheek at max throw, by around a 1/2" or so, and you must lift your head from the comb to allow the bolt to cycle, and then drop it back and reaquire your sight picture. So, if any kind of rapid fire work is involved, a short action has real advantages.
If the firing cycle is slow and deliberate and you are not stressed for time between shots, then who cares. It really dosn't make any difference.
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't believe some of the BS being spouted here.
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
"Less rigid" is bullshit. No human can differentiate any rigidity loss and I doubt that even an engineer could show it on a graph. We're talking a 1/4" longer in length of good steel, we're not talking feet.</div></div>
So the long action is not less rigid then the short action? That's not right a longer cylinder will always deflect more and be less rigid then a short cylinder having the same diameter. And if we couldn't measure it how could you say that the longer less rigid action wouldn't affect accuracy? In order to equal the difference in rigidity of a shorter action one would have to beef up the longer or get a custom. There was no Bullshit comment made.
Here is some rigidity numbers.
In this analysis, Stuart Otteson’s methodology for calculating action rigidity (see Benchrest Actions & Triggers, Stuart Otteson, 1983), All rigidity figures are calculated through a section across the width of the action at the center of the loading port as in most cases this will be the weakest area of the action. Following is a table showing calculations for the rigidity of various modern rifle actions
Remington 700________________________0.54 x 106 in2-lb
Winchester Model 70___________________1.11 x 106 in2-lb
Remington 40X________________________1.38 x 106 in2-lb
SPF Diamondback______________________3.16 x 106 in2-lb
BAT Three Lug________________________3.21 x 106 in2-lb
Stoelle Panda_________________________3.52 x 106 in2-lb
Borden BRL__________________________3.77 x 106 in2-lb
Barnard S____________________________3.93 x 106 in2-lb
Gilkes-Ross__________________________3.97 x 106 in2-lb
Hall B_______________________________10.7 x 106 in2-lb
2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, bullshit. Bolt throw length has zero to do with accuracy. So there are no accurate factory long actions? There are plenty of extremely accurate factory long action rifles. Again, we're talking about a 1/4" in length. The length of the action has nothing to do with accuracy.</div></div>
I never suggested there were no accurate long actions what was being suggest was that the longer throw of the bolt with the additional play would not consistantly pick up and cycle the round as a shorter action with less slop. If you can not cycle the action the same each time then there would be a greater chance the rifle would not shoot as accurately.
3) You could ask someone familiar with the M24 system and get their input whether or not they have noticed more failure to feed or stoppages with the long action and magazine system over the short action.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, they haven't.</div></div>
You say no someone else in this thread says yes i will call it a wash. cycling a short round such as the 308 through a long action would have more FTF then someone using a short action with 308 specific mags.
4) Long actions require more movement to manipulate the bolt, which may not be advantages to those that are in stealth environments.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, bullshit. The time difference and movement between the two are miniscule at best. In fact, nearly undetectable and the Army proves that on a daily basis. If you're busted because you racked your bolt 1/4" more than you were in a bad spot. You don't have to move your face to rack the bolt, especially if you do it slowly, again as the Army shows. </div></div>
In hin sight I will concede this point manipulating a bolt the extra 7/8 would seem to be a nonfactor.
i am not in favor of a long or short action. The appealing aspect to me is the ability to load short caliber like the 308 or 284 in a long action and using the longest bullet available without pushing the bullet deep into the boiler room. however i am very consicous of Remington's rigidity and a beefer long action would over come the apparent short comings of a factory Remington.
Trevor
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't believe some of the BS being spouted here.
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
"Less rigid" is bullshit. No human can differentiate any rigidity loss and I doubt that even an engineer could show it on a graph. We're talking a 1/4" longer in length of good steel, we're not talking feet.</div></div>
So the long action is not less rigid then the short action? That's not right a longer cylinder will always deflect more and be less rigid then a short cylinder having the same diameter. And if we couldn't measure it how could you say that the longer less rigid action wouldn't affect accuracy? In order to equal the difference in rigidity of a shorter action one would have to beef up the longer or get a custom. There was no Bullshit comment made.
Here is some rigidity numbers.
In this analysis, Stuart Otteson’s methodology for calculating action rigidity (see Benchrest Actions & Triggers, Stuart Otteson, 1983), All rigidity figures are calculated through a section across the width of the action at the center of the loading port as in most cases this will be the weakest area of the action. Following is a table showing calculations for the rigidity of various modern rifle actions
Remington 700________________________0.54 x 106 in2-lb
Winchester Model 70___________________1.11 x 106 in2-lb
Remington 40X________________________1.38 x 106 in2-lb
SPF Diamondback______________________3.16 x 106 in2-lb
BAT Three Lug________________________3.21 x 106 in2-lb
Stoelle Panda_________________________3.52 x 106 in2-lb
Borden BRL__________________________3.77 x 106 in2-lb
Barnard S____________________________3.93 x 106 in2-lb
Gilkes-Ross__________________________3.97 x 106 in2-lb
Hall B_______________________________10.7 x 106 in2-lb
2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, bullshit. Bolt throw length has zero to do with accuracy. So there are no accurate factory long actions? There are plenty of extremely accurate factory long action rifles. Again, we're talking about a 1/4" in length. The length of the action has nothing to do with accuracy.</div></div>
I never suggested there were no accurate long actions what was being suggest was that the longer throw of the bolt with the additional play would not consistantly pick up and cycle the round as a shorter action with less slop. If you can not cycle the action the same each time then there would be a greater chance the rifle would not shoot as accurately.
3) You could ask someone familiar with the M24 system and get their input whether or not they have noticed more failure to feed or stoppages with the long action and magazine system over the short action.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, they haven't.</div></div>
You say no someone else in this thread says yes i will call it a wash. cycling a short round such as the 308 through a long action would have more FTF then someone using a short action with 308 specific mags.
4) Long actions require more movement to manipulate the bolt, which may not be advantages to those that are in stealth environments.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, bullshit. The time difference and movement between the two are miniscule at best. In fact, nearly undetectable and the Army proves that on a daily basis. If you're busted because you racked your bolt 1/4" more than you were in a bad spot. You don't have to move your face to rack the bolt, especially if you do it slowly, again as the Army shows. </div></div>
In hin sight I will concede this point manipulating a bolt the extra 7/8 would seem to be a nonfactor.
i am not in favor of a long or short action. The appealing aspect to me is the ability to load short caliber like the 308 or 284 in a long action and using the longest bullet available without pushing the bullet deep into the boiler room. however i am very consicous of Remington's rigidity and a beefer long action would over come the apparent short comings of a factory Remington.
Trevor
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't believe some of the BS being spouted here.
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
"Less rigid" is bullshit. No human can differentiate any rigidity loss and I doubt that even an engineer could show it on a graph. We're talking a 1/4" longer in length of good steel, we're not talking feet.</div></div>
So the long action is not less rigid then the short action?
<span style="text-decoration: underline">No, I didn't say that a long action was not less rigid than a short action, I said "No human can differentiate any rigidity loss..." meaning that you cannot feel or perceive a difference. </span>
That's not right a longer cylinder will always deflect more and be less rigid then a short cylinder having the same diameter. And if we couldn't measure it how could you say that the longer less rigid action wouldn't affect accuracy?
<span style="text-decoration: underline">It can be measured but it is insignificant in 7/8" using the steel that the receivers are made from. No shooter can tell the difference. So trying to spout the rigidity differences is moot as any are irrelevant in our applications. </span>
In order to equal the difference in rigidity of a shorter action one would have to beef up the longer or get a custom. There was no Bullshit comment made.
Here is some rigidity numbers.
In this analysis, Stuart Otteson’s methodology for calculating action rigidity (see Benchrest Actions & Triggers, Stuart Otteson, 1983), All rigidity figures are calculated through a section across the width of the action at the center of the loading port as in most cases this will be the weakest area of the action. Following is a table showing calculations for the rigidity of various modern rifle actions
Remington 700________________________0.54 x 106 in2-lb
Winchester Model 70___________________1.11 x 106 in2-lb
Remington 40X________________________1.38 x 106 in2-lb
SPF Diamondback______________________3.16 x 106 in2-lb
BAT Three Lug________________________3.21 x 106 in2-lb
Stoelle Panda___________________________3.52 x 106 in2-lb
Borden BRL__________________________3.77 x 106 in2-lb
Barnard S____________________________3.93 x 106 in2-lb
Gilkes-Ross__________________________3.97 x 106 in2-lb
Hall B_______________________________10.7 x 106 in2-lb
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Where is the comparison of long and short action? This chart doesn't mean squat if we cannot compare the LA and SA. If the SA is here, Remington 700__0.54 x 106 in2-lb, what is a LA?</span>
2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, bullshit. Bolt throw length has zero to do with accuracy. So there are no accurate factory long actions? There are plenty of extremely accurate factory long action rifles. Again, we're talking about a 1/4" in length. The length of the action has nothing to do with accuracy.</div></div>
I never suggested there was no accurate long actions what was being suggest was that the longer throw of the bolt with the additional play would not consistantly pick up and cycle the round as a shorter action with less slop. If you can not cycle the action the same each time then there would be a greater chance the rifle would not shoot as accurately.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Here is what you said "sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt,"
"affecting accuracy" is not "cycling the action"
The sloppiness of the bolt had zero to do with accuracy. Is it possible it may not pick up a round as consistently? Perhaps, but accuracy has zero to do with the length of the bolt. Once the bolt is tightened on the lugs, even with a stock rifle, there is no affect on accuracy whatsoever. </span>
I
3) You could ask someone familiar with the M24 system and get their input whether or not they have noticed more failure to feed or stoppages with the long action and magazine system over the short action.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, they haven't.</div></div>
You say no someone else in this thread says yes i will call it a wash. cycling a short round such as the 308 through a long action would have more FTF then someone using a short action with 308 specific mags.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">
I don't believe the difference is enough to warrant making it a notable problem. Again, the Army has been using a LA 308 for years and trouble cycling is not a major concern. So I believe the difference in belief here is based solely on acceptable parameters. </span>
4) Long actions require more movement to manipulate the bolt, which may not be advantages to those that are in stealth environments.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, bullshit. The time difference and movement between the two are miniscule at best. In fact, nearly undetectable and the Army proves that on a daily basis. If you're busted because you racked your bolt 1/4" more than you were in a bad spot. You don't have to move your face to rack the bolt, especially if you do it slowly, again as the Army shows. </div></div>
In hin sight I will concede this point manipulating a bolt the extra 7/8 would seem to be a nonfactor.
i am not in favor of a long or short action. The appealing aspect to me is the ability to load short caliber like the 308 or 284 in a long action and using the longest bullet available without pushing the bullet deep into the boiler room. however i am very consicous of Remington's rigidity and a beefer long action would equal or better a factory version.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Trevor, my point is that if I gave you two nearly exact rifles in 308, one in LA and one in SA, you would not be able to differentiate the two at all. And that's not just you, that's me, and everyone I know. I feel any differences are so small that they are virtually impossible to perceive without scientific measurement. Shoot want you want and take advantage of what you got. 308 seated way out, yes, 6.5x284 so you can seat out long, yes, SA because that is what you have and make it work? Yes.</span>
Trevor </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can't believe some of the BS being spouted here.
Cons
1) They are less ridged compared to a short action, you would need to strengthen or get a custom which means more cost to increase rigidity.
"Less rigid" is bullshit. No human can differentiate any rigidity loss and I doubt that even an engineer could show it on a graph. We're talking a 1/4" longer in length of good steel, we're not talking feet.</div></div>
So the long action is not less rigid then the short action?
<span style="text-decoration: underline">No, I didn't say that a long action was not less rigid than a short action, I said "No human can differentiate any rigidity loss..." meaning that you cannot feel or perceive a difference. </span>
That's not right a longer cylinder will always deflect more and be less rigid then a short cylinder having the same diameter. And if we couldn't measure it how could you say that the longer less rigid action wouldn't affect accuracy?
<span style="text-decoration: underline">It can be measured but it is insignificant in 7/8" using the steel that the receivers are made from. No shooter can tell the difference. So trying to spout the rigidity differences is moot as any are irrelevant in our applications. </span>
In order to equal the difference in rigidity of a shorter action one would have to beef up the longer or get a custom. There was no Bullshit comment made.
Here is some rigidity numbers.
In this analysis, Stuart Otteson’s methodology for calculating action rigidity (see Benchrest Actions & Triggers, Stuart Otteson, 1983), All rigidity figures are calculated through a section across the width of the action at the center of the loading port as in most cases this will be the weakest area of the action. Following is a table showing calculations for the rigidity of various modern rifle actions
Remington 700________________________0.54 x 106 in2-lb
Winchester Model 70___________________1.11 x 106 in2-lb
Remington 40X________________________1.38 x 106 in2-lb
SPF Diamondback______________________3.16 x 106 in2-lb
BAT Three Lug________________________3.21 x 106 in2-lb
Stoelle Panda___________________________3.52 x 106 in2-lb
Borden BRL__________________________3.77 x 106 in2-lb
Barnard S____________________________3.93 x 106 in2-lb
Gilkes-Ross__________________________3.97 x 106 in2-lb
Hall B_______________________________10.7 x 106 in2-lb
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Where is the comparison of long and short action? This chart doesn't mean squat if we cannot compare the LA and SA. If the SA is here, Remington 700__0.54 x 106 in2-lb, what is a LA?</span>
2) the bolt throw of a long action is sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt, this could be corrected on a factory but a custom action would have the tighter tolerances built in, again more cost for a custom.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, bullshit. Bolt throw length has zero to do with accuracy. So there are no accurate factory long actions? There are plenty of extremely accurate factory long action rifles. Again, we're talking about a 1/4" in length. The length of the action has nothing to do with accuracy.</div></div>
I never suggested there was no accurate long actions what was being suggest was that the longer throw of the bolt with the additional play would not consistantly pick up and cycle the round as a shorter action with less slop. If you can not cycle the action the same each time then there would be a greater chance the rifle would not shoot as accurately.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Here is what you said "sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt,"
"affecting accuracy" is not "cycling the action"
The sloppiness of the bolt had zero to do with accuracy. Is it possible it may not pick up a round as consistently? Perhaps, but accuracy has zero to do with the length of the bolt. Once the bolt is tightened on the lugs, even with a stock rifle, there is no affect on accuracy whatsoever. </span>
I
3) You could ask someone familiar with the M24 system and get their input whether or not they have noticed more failure to feed or stoppages with the long action and magazine system over the short action.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, they haven't.</div></div>
You say no someone else in this thread says yes i will call it a wash. cycling a short round such as the 308 through a long action would have more FTF then someone using a short action with 308 specific mags.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">
I don't believe the difference is enough to warrant making it a notable problem. Again, the Army has been using a LA 308 for years and trouble cycling is not a major concern. So I believe the difference in belief here is based solely on acceptable parameters. </span>
4) Long actions require more movement to manipulate the bolt, which may not be advantages to those that are in stealth environments.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, bullshit. The time difference and movement between the two are miniscule at best. In fact, nearly undetectable and the Army proves that on a daily basis. If you're busted because you racked your bolt 1/4" more than you were in a bad spot. You don't have to move your face to rack the bolt, especially if you do it slowly, again as the Army shows. </div></div>
In hin sight I will concede this point manipulating a bolt the extra 7/8 would seem to be a nonfactor.
i am not in favor of a long or short action. The appealing aspect to me is the ability to load short caliber like the 308 or 284 in a long action and using the longest bullet available without pushing the bullet deep into the boiler room. however i am very consicous of Remington's rigidity and a beefer long action would equal or better a factory version.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">Trevor, my point is that if I gave you two nearly exact rifles in 308, one in LA and one in SA, you would not be able to differentiate the two at all. And that's not just you, that's me, and everyone I know. I feel any differences are so small that they are virtually impossible to perceive without scientific measurement. Shoot want you want and take advantage of what you got. 308 seated way out, yes, 6.5x284 so you can seat out long, yes, SA because that is what you have and make it work? Yes.</span>
Trevor </div></div>
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762slinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brand, that's why I was saying bolt travel. On a 700 SA the rear of the bolt is 5 1/2" when it is fully to the rear. On a 700 LA the rear of the bolt is about 6 3/8" with the common point being the rear of the top of the receiver.
What is the correct term rather than throw?
I don't have to reposition my face when cycling the bolt with either the long or short action and I don't think it is going to cause a problem with trying to remain undetected. The travel isn't a whole lot more, but there is more play with the tail of the bolt/bolt handle from what I've seen.
On the M24, because you are loading/firing a SA cartridge in a LA magazine I've had problems with feeding (as have others), usually moreso with bad mag springs. Once the spring is replaced, the action is more forgiving of improperly positioned rounds and it can even feed rounds that aren't fully to the rear.
The bolt slop or wobble that I see is exactly as you describe, and I believe you have the cause correct in that due to the longer length of the bolt and the extent that the LA bolt sticks out of the receiver there is more play at the bolt handle end. However when the bolt is fully in battery I wouldn't say that there is any reduction in accuracy either because of the length of the receiver or whatever. </div></div>
You know I don't know what the proper term is. But I agree 100%.
Heres the deal, stick LA bolt in a SA receiver, and you will have the same "slop" that you have in the LA receiver. The slop that is felt when a LA Bolt is all the way to the rear is because the bolt is longer, not because the action is longer. Same holds true for a SA bolt inserted in a LA receiver. It will have the same "slop" when fully rearward as in the SA receiver.
And I don't care what anyone says. You hit the nail on the head with the M24. Its picky how its loaded and will fail to feed occasionally unless you have the rounds all the way to the rear of the mag well. The weak spring exaggerates the problem as the rounds can shift during firing. They may have started out at the rear of the well, but moved forward during recoil. Usually a new spring will fix that. Nonetheless, they still have to be fully rearward. The 308 in the LA was an after thought on the part of the Army when the 30-06 didn't work out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762slinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brand, that's why I was saying bolt travel. On a 700 SA the rear of the bolt is 5 1/2" when it is fully to the rear. On a 700 LA the rear of the bolt is about 6 3/8" with the common point being the rear of the top of the receiver.
What is the correct term rather than throw?
I don't have to reposition my face when cycling the bolt with either the long or short action and I don't think it is going to cause a problem with trying to remain undetected. The travel isn't a whole lot more, but there is more play with the tail of the bolt/bolt handle from what I've seen.
On the M24, because you are loading/firing a SA cartridge in a LA magazine I've had problems with feeding (as have others), usually moreso with bad mag springs. Once the spring is replaced, the action is more forgiving of improperly positioned rounds and it can even feed rounds that aren't fully to the rear.
The bolt slop or wobble that I see is exactly as you describe, and I believe you have the cause correct in that due to the longer length of the bolt and the extent that the LA bolt sticks out of the receiver there is more play at the bolt handle end. However when the bolt is fully in battery I wouldn't say that there is any reduction in accuracy either because of the length of the receiver or whatever. </div></div>
You know I don't know what the proper term is. But I agree 100%.
Heres the deal, stick LA bolt in a SA receiver, and you will have the same "slop" that you have in the LA receiver. The slop that is felt when a LA Bolt is all the way to the rear is because the bolt is longer, not because the action is longer. Same holds true for a SA bolt inserted in a LA receiver. It will have the same "slop" when fully rearward as in the SA receiver.
And I don't care what anyone says. You hit the nail on the head with the M24. Its picky how its loaded and will fail to feed occasionally unless you have the rounds all the way to the rear of the mag well. The weak spring exaggerates the problem as the rounds can shift during firing. They may have started out at the rear of the well, but moved forward during recoil. Usually a new spring will fix that. Nonetheless, they still have to be fully rearward. The 308 in the LA was an after thought on the part of the Army when the 30-06 didn't work out.
Re: Short action VS Long action
<span style="font-style: italic">Here is what you said "sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt,"
"affecting accuracy" is not "cycling the action"
The sloppiness of the bolt had zero to do with accuracy. Is it possible it may not pick up a round as consistently? Perhaps, but accuracy has zero to do with the length of the bolt. Once the bolt is tightened on the lugs, even with a stock rifle, there is no affect on accuracy whatsoever.</span>
I would disagree I believe the looser tolerances (Sloppier bolt) does have an impact on the accuracy of the rifle. Two what degree I would have to pour over articles and research to try and give more then an anecdotal response; but I am convinced enough that I would go and improve an existing factory offering or more like buy custom in order to bring both the rigidity and tighter tolerances to may level of satisfaction in keepingwith the short actions I already own.
<span style="font-style: italic">Trevor, my point is that if I gave you two nearly exact rifles in 308, one in LA and one in SA, you would not be able to differentiate the two at all. And that's not just you, that's me, and everyone I know. I feel any differences are so small that they are virtually impossible to perceive without scientific measurement. Shoot want you want and take advantage of what you got. 308 seated way out, yes, 6.5x284 so you can seat out long, yes, SA because that is what you have and make it work? Yes.</span>
I believe you have made a very valid point (shoot what your brought). I was simply trying to answer from what I know from one of the original posters points about the differences “Does it make a difference in accuracy? Is bolt travel an issue? Why not long for everything?”
Good shooting
Trevor
<span style="font-style: italic">Here is what you said "sloppier (affecting accuracy) due to the longer bolt,"
"affecting accuracy" is not "cycling the action"
The sloppiness of the bolt had zero to do with accuracy. Is it possible it may not pick up a round as consistently? Perhaps, but accuracy has zero to do with the length of the bolt. Once the bolt is tightened on the lugs, even with a stock rifle, there is no affect on accuracy whatsoever.</span>
I would disagree I believe the looser tolerances (Sloppier bolt) does have an impact on the accuracy of the rifle. Two what degree I would have to pour over articles and research to try and give more then an anecdotal response; but I am convinced enough that I would go and improve an existing factory offering or more like buy custom in order to bring both the rigidity and tighter tolerances to may level of satisfaction in keepingwith the short actions I already own.
<span style="font-style: italic">Trevor, my point is that if I gave you two nearly exact rifles in 308, one in LA and one in SA, you would not be able to differentiate the two at all. And that's not just you, that's me, and everyone I know. I feel any differences are so small that they are virtually impossible to perceive without scientific measurement. Shoot want you want and take advantage of what you got. 308 seated way out, yes, 6.5x284 so you can seat out long, yes, SA because that is what you have and make it work? Yes.</span>
I believe you have made a very valid point (shoot what your brought). I was simply trying to answer from what I know from one of the original posters points about the differences “Does it make a difference in accuracy? Is bolt travel an issue? Why not long for everything?”
Good shooting
Trevor
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I would disagree I believe the looser tolerances (Sloppier bolt) does have an impact on the accuracy of the rifle. Two what degree I would have to pour over articles and research to try and give more then an anecdotal response; but I am convinced enough that I would go and improve an existing factory offering or more like buy custom in order to bring both the rigidity and tighter tolerances to may level of satisfaction in keepingwith the short actions I already own. </div></div>
where are you getting your information that a long action has looser tolerances than a short action? the bolt body to receiver clearance is the same with a short action or a long action. maybe you missed it earlier when i said that a long action actually has less potential for lug and bolt face misalignment when in battery compared to a short action. it is going to be an insignificant amount but the long action will definatly be less. i don't feel like drawing it out right now but i will say you are absolutely wrong thinking bolt slop of a long action negatively affects accuracy compared to a short action.
edit: i haven't had my coffee yet so this could be wrong. from the quick drawing i did, with a bolt body to receiver clearance of .006" and using the 4" length for a short action and 4.875" for a long, the short action can deflect .09° and .07° for the long. insignificant? probably. but i stick to the fact that the long action is not less accurate than a short action because of the bolt slop. if anything, it has an edge as far as that is concerned.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I would disagree I believe the looser tolerances (Sloppier bolt) does have an impact on the accuracy of the rifle. Two what degree I would have to pour over articles and research to try and give more then an anecdotal response; but I am convinced enough that I would go and improve an existing factory offering or more like buy custom in order to bring both the rigidity and tighter tolerances to may level of satisfaction in keepingwith the short actions I already own. </div></div>
where are you getting your information that a long action has looser tolerances than a short action? the bolt body to receiver clearance is the same with a short action or a long action. maybe you missed it earlier when i said that a long action actually has less potential for lug and bolt face misalignment when in battery compared to a short action. it is going to be an insignificant amount but the long action will definatly be less. i don't feel like drawing it out right now but i will say you are absolutely wrong thinking bolt slop of a long action negatively affects accuracy compared to a short action.
edit: i haven't had my coffee yet so this could be wrong. from the quick drawing i did, with a bolt body to receiver clearance of .006" and using the 4" length for a short action and 4.875" for a long, the short action can deflect .09° and .07° for the long. insignificant? probably. but i stick to the fact that the long action is not less accurate than a short action because of the bolt slop. if anything, it has an edge as far as that is concerned.
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So the long action is not less rigid then the short action? That's not right a longer cylinder will always deflect more and be less rigid then a short cylinder having the same diameter. And if we couldn't measure it how could you say that the longer less rigid action wouldn't affect accuracy? In order to equal the difference in rigidity of a shorter action one would have to beef up the longer or get a custom. There was no Bullshit comment made.</div></div>
sure a longer cylinder will deflect more if they were only attached to the opposite end as the load. you are failing to take into account the longer radius between the front and rear screws and the front ring and rear tang bedding areas creating a more rigid receiver to stock fit. think of it this way, it would be harder to rip a long action out of a stock by pulling up on the barrel. i think the "less rigid" long action negatives are a wash when you figure in the gains from how it is fit into the stock.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So the long action is not less rigid then the short action? That's not right a longer cylinder will always deflect more and be less rigid then a short cylinder having the same diameter. And if we couldn't measure it how could you say that the longer less rigid action wouldn't affect accuracy? In order to equal the difference in rigidity of a shorter action one would have to beef up the longer or get a custom. There was no Bullshit comment made.</div></div>
sure a longer cylinder will deflect more if they were only attached to the opposite end as the load. you are failing to take into account the longer radius between the front and rear screws and the front ring and rear tang bedding areas creating a more rigid receiver to stock fit. think of it this way, it would be harder to rip a long action out of a stock by pulling up on the barrel. i think the "less rigid" long action negatives are a wash when you figure in the gains from how it is fit into the stock.
Re: Short action VS Long action
Been following this thread and I can't believe you guys are arguing about this. It's obvious none of you have any idea what you are talking about. Deflection and precise measurements? Please, the answer is right in front of you.
Long actions are for long range. Short actions are for short range. That's why the M24 is a long action. It's a long range rifle. I even heard they are making a sooper long action soon in 308 to make it shoot farther (like 3000 yards).
Any other questions?
-Chris
Been following this thread and I can't believe you guys are arguing about this. It's obvious none of you have any idea what you are talking about. Deflection and precise measurements? Please, the answer is right in front of you.
Long actions are for long range. Short actions are for short range. That's why the M24 is a long action. It's a long range rifle. I even heard they are making a sooper long action soon in 308 to make it shoot farther (like 3000 yards).
Any other questions?
-Chris
Re: Short action VS Long action
Look what you started Sandedfaceless...
I can actually see the perceived additional slop, but being a shooter, we all know distance multiplies the "slop." (1" group at 100 yards is a 2" group at 200yards). The tolerances are the same and getting a custom SA will yield tighter tolerances too.
The longer action will be less rigid if they were made the exact same way. It's physics. How long did it take the shooting world to realize a 20in barrel is more rigid than a 24 in? How much rigidity do you lose from 7/8"...probably very very little. Are LA made the same way as SA? I don't know. They very well could be more rigid to overcompensate.
I've talked to guys that were army snipers about the m24. Their training prevented them from losing their cool if there was a FTF. I think one of the arguments presented about loss of accuracy due to a FTF would impact a civi shooting at a match or at the range just due to the added stress, but not a military sniper.
Have we heard from the OP about all of this?
It kind of sounded like they were wondering because they have a 308 and saw info on a new part for it that specified LA or SA. I think it's funny and amazing that we have such a large variety of people on this forum that will so quickly provide detailed information and explanations to complete strangers. When I do it, it's for the benefit of my fellow shooters and I'm sure many of you are the same way.
In any event, this forum is great! Thanks SH!!
Look what you started Sandedfaceless...
I can actually see the perceived additional slop, but being a shooter, we all know distance multiplies the "slop." (1" group at 100 yards is a 2" group at 200yards). The tolerances are the same and getting a custom SA will yield tighter tolerances too.
The longer action will be less rigid if they were made the exact same way. It's physics. How long did it take the shooting world to realize a 20in barrel is more rigid than a 24 in? How much rigidity do you lose from 7/8"...probably very very little. Are LA made the same way as SA? I don't know. They very well could be more rigid to overcompensate.
I've talked to guys that were army snipers about the m24. Their training prevented them from losing their cool if there was a FTF. I think one of the arguments presented about loss of accuracy due to a FTF would impact a civi shooting at a match or at the range just due to the added stress, but not a military sniper.
Have we heard from the OP about all of this?
In any event, this forum is great! Thanks SH!!
Re: Short action VS Long action
Someone needs to get a memo out to all the 30-06, 300 WinMag, 7RM, 338 Lapua, etc shooters.
They need to know their rifles are not capable of precision accuracy.
Talk about splitting irrelevant micro-hairs.
Someone needs to get a memo out to all the 30-06, 300 WinMag, 7RM, 338 Lapua, etc shooters.
They need to know their rifles are not capable of precision accuracy.
Talk about splitting irrelevant micro-hairs.
Re: Short action VS Long action
Choice of caliber and personal preference.
Peroid.
Does that make magnum actions less rigid than the long action?
And to 50 caliber less rigid than the magnum action?
There's no industry standard on just what constitutes "short" and "long" actions. Most bolt-action rifle manufactures make at least two lengths, some three; Sako bolt actions come in four lengths to suit different cartridges.
American manufacturers seem to designate short actions of ones that will accept cartridges up to 2.8" in overall length, and long action as ones that will accept cartridges up to 3.4". By this definition, short-action cartridges would include the .30-'06 and its offspring, as well as magnums of similar length, such as the 7mm Rem. Mag. And the 300 and 338 Win. Magnums.
Typically, the receivers of short actions are 3/4" to 1" shorter than those of long actions. Since the bolt and magazine assembly are also shorter, weight is reduced by about 4 ozs.
Short actions are more rigid, enhancing accuracy. They are slightly faster to cycle, though not for the reason most people think. The actual extra distance the bolt travels in a long action is less than an inch, and since the bolt in moving fast while being cycled, the difference in travel time is insignificant.
The reason aimed shots can be fired faster with a short action is that the shooter's head doesn't have to move. The face can remain on the stock and the eye of the sight picture as the bolt is cycle. With long actions, most shooters have to lift their heads from the stock so the bolt has room to operate. Shooter must then reacquire position and sight picture.
Choice of caliber and personal preference.
Peroid.
Does that make magnum actions less rigid than the long action?
And to 50 caliber less rigid than the magnum action?
There's no industry standard on just what constitutes "short" and "long" actions. Most bolt-action rifle manufactures make at least two lengths, some three; Sako bolt actions come in four lengths to suit different cartridges.
American manufacturers seem to designate short actions of ones that will accept cartridges up to 2.8" in overall length, and long action as ones that will accept cartridges up to 3.4". By this definition, short-action cartridges would include the .30-'06 and its offspring, as well as magnums of similar length, such as the 7mm Rem. Mag. And the 300 and 338 Win. Magnums.
Typically, the receivers of short actions are 3/4" to 1" shorter than those of long actions. Since the bolt and magazine assembly are also shorter, weight is reduced by about 4 ozs.
Short actions are more rigid, enhancing accuracy. They are slightly faster to cycle, though not for the reason most people think. The actual extra distance the bolt travels in a long action is less than an inch, and since the bolt in moving fast while being cycled, the difference in travel time is insignificant.
The reason aimed shots can be fired faster with a short action is that the shooter's head doesn't have to move. The face can remain on the stock and the eye of the sight picture as the bolt is cycle. With long actions, most shooters have to lift their heads from the stock so the bolt has room to operate. Shooter must then reacquire position and sight picture.
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sandedfaceless</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just wondering what the biggest differance was between the two, is one better or is it a personal preferance?
Thanks in advance!! </div></div>
just to actually answer the original post, the biggest difference is the length of cartridge you can use. a short action can safely use up to about a 2.95" oal cartridge with modified aics magazines and a slightly modified feed ramp. any longer than that, a long action is needed.
personally, i wouldn't use a long action unless it was needed.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sandedfaceless</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just wondering what the biggest differance was between the two, is one better or is it a personal preferance?
Thanks in advance!! </div></div>
just to actually answer the original post, the biggest difference is the length of cartridge you can use. a short action can safely use up to about a 2.95" oal cartridge with modified aics magazines and a slightly modified feed ramp. any longer than that, a long action is needed.
personally, i wouldn't use a long action unless it was needed.
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Short actions are more rigid, <span style="color: #FF0000">enhancing accuracy.</span> </div></div>
i'm still not buying it.
next time i have a short and long action receiver at the same time, maybe i'll bolt them into a vee block on a bench the same way they would be bolted into a stock, screw a barrel on and hang a weight on the end. i will put a dial indicator at the end of the barrel and see how much more deflection there is with a long action vs. the short action. i have a pretty good suspicion the difference will be insignificant.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Short actions are more rigid, <span style="color: #FF0000">enhancing accuracy.</span> </div></div>
i'm still not buying it.
next time i have a short and long action receiver at the same time, maybe i'll bolt them into a vee block on a bench the same way they would be bolted into a stock, screw a barrel on and hang a weight on the end. i will put a dial indicator at the end of the barrel and see how much more deflection there is with a long action vs. the short action. i have a pretty good suspicion the difference will be insignificant.
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Short actions are more rigid, enhancing accuracy.
</div></div>
Please explain what "enhancing accuracy" means? At what point is the LA in any caliber no longer as accurate as a short action?
Can a LA rifle not be built to shoot sub .5 moa or sub .25 moa? At what point is a LA less accurate?
When a bolt is closed on any action the lugs on the bolt are locked down to the lugs inside the action. Once these lugs are locked, it is irrelevant how long the action is. If the chamber, bolt face and lugs are all squared up and locked down, the rifle will be accurate. (excluding things like barrel twist, length, load, and other non-action related variables).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Short actions are more rigid, enhancing accuracy.
</div></div>
Please explain what "enhancing accuracy" means? At what point is the LA in any caliber no longer as accurate as a short action?
Can a LA rifle not be built to shoot sub .5 moa or sub .25 moa? At what point is a LA less accurate?
When a bolt is closed on any action the lugs on the bolt are locked down to the lugs inside the action. Once these lugs are locked, it is irrelevant how long the action is. If the chamber, bolt face and lugs are all squared up and locked down, the rifle will be accurate. (excluding things like barrel twist, length, load, and other non-action related variables).
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is a shorter barrel stiffer than a longer one?
Which one has more whip in it? </div></div>
is the barrel bedded and bolted to the stock at both ends?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is a shorter barrel stiffer than a longer one?
Which one has more whip in it? </div></div>
is the barrel bedded and bolted to the stock at both ends?
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is a shorter barrel stiffer than a longer one?
Which one has more whip in it?</div></div>
Do this. Take the exact same barrel, measure it at a given length <24" and then cut exactly 7/8" off of it and tell us exactly how much "less rigid" it is and report back on how much less accurate it is.
There are more than ample examples of rifles on here with barrels ranging in between 18" and 30" and I have not seen one less accurate than the other. If they were, I doubt we would be seeing barrels of that length ever again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is a shorter barrel stiffer than a longer one?
Which one has more whip in it?</div></div>
Do this. Take the exact same barrel, measure it at a given length <24" and then cut exactly 7/8" off of it and tell us exactly how much "less rigid" it is and report back on how much less accurate it is.
There are more than ample examples of rifles on here with barrels ranging in between 18" and 30" and I have not seen one less accurate than the other. If they were, I doubt we would be seeing barrels of that length ever again.
Re: Short action VS Long action
What does the barrel do when a bullet is fired through it? Does it remain stable or does it flex?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is a shorter barrel stiffer than a longer one?
Which one has more whip in it? </div></div>
is the barrel bedded and bolted to the stock at both ends? </div></div>
What does the barrel do when a bullet is fired through it? Does it remain stable or does it flex?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is a shorter barrel stiffer than a longer one?
Which one has more whip in it? </div></div>
is the barrel bedded and bolted to the stock at both ends? </div></div>
Re: Short action VS Long action
No need to. I know the answer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is a shorter barrel stiffer than a longer one?
Which one has more whip in it?</div></div>
Do this. Take the exact same barrel, measure it at a given length <24" and then cut exactly 7/8" off of it and tell us exactly how much "less rigid" it is and report back on how much less accurate it is.
There are more than ample examples of rifles on here with barrels ranging in between 18" and 30" and I have not seen one less accurate than the other. If they were, I doubt we would be seeing barrels of that length ever again. </div></div>
No need to. I know the answer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is a shorter barrel stiffer than a longer one?
Which one has more whip in it?</div></div>
Do this. Take the exact same barrel, measure it at a given length <24" and then cut exactly 7/8" off of it and tell us exactly how much "less rigid" it is and report back on how much less accurate it is.
There are more than ample examples of rifles on here with barrels ranging in between 18" and 30" and I have not seen one less accurate than the other. If they were, I doubt we would be seeing barrels of that length ever again. </div></div>
Re: Short action VS Long action
And one thing we are not taking into consideration here are the engineers. I don't know this for a fact but I am going to go out on a limb and say that everything being discussed here has been examined ad naseum by the engineering staff at the major rifle manufacturers. I am also willing to wager that they took all of the physics into consideration when creating the blueprints for these actions. Plus, I'm sure the CAD programs they use have these factors written in to the equation as well.
And one thing we are not taking into consideration here are the engineers. I don't know this for a fact but I am going to go out on a limb and say that everything being discussed here has been examined ad naseum by the engineering staff at the major rifle manufacturers. I am also willing to wager that they took all of the physics into consideration when creating the blueprints for these actions. Plus, I'm sure the CAD programs they use have these factors written in to the equation as well.
Re: Short action VS Long action
Get your facts from engineering and report back.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And one thing we are not taking into consideration here are the engineers. I don't know this for a fact but I am going to go out on a limb and say that everything being discussed here has been examined ad naseum by the engineering staff at the major rifle manufacturers. I am also willing to wager that they took all of the physics into consideration when creating the blueprints for these actions. Plus, I'm sure the CAD programs they use have these factors written in to the equation as well. </div></div>
Get your facts from engineering and report back.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And one thing we are not taking into consideration here are the engineers. I don't know this for a fact but I am going to go out on a limb and say that everything being discussed here has been examined ad naseum by the engineering staff at the major rifle manufacturers. I am also willing to wager that they took all of the physics into consideration when creating the blueprints for these actions. Plus, I'm sure the CAD programs they use have these factors written in to the equation as well. </div></div>
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does the barrel do when a bullet is fired through it? Does it remain stable od does it flex?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is a shorter barrel stiffer than a longer one?
Which one has more whip in it? </div></div>
is the barrel bedded and bolted to the stock at both ends? </div></div> </div></div>
i don't feel an 18" to 30" barrel hanging from 1" of thread at one end can compare to a 6" to 7" receiver bolted and fully bedded at both ends.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does the barrel do when a bullet is fired through it? Does it remain stable od does it flex?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is a shorter barrel stiffer than a longer one?
Which one has more whip in it? </div></div>
is the barrel bedded and bolted to the stock at both ends? </div></div> </div></div>
i don't feel an 18" to 30" barrel hanging from 1" of thread at one end can compare to a 6" to 7" receiver bolted and fully bedded at both ends.
Re: Short action VS Long action
Things that don't work are rarely successful and the last time I checked, LA has been offered by various rifle manufacturers for nearly a century if not longer. I would think that even with the extra powder a long action case provides, along with the use of heavier bullets, would still not prevent the disappearance of a LA if they were not acceptably accurate.
Things that don't work are rarely successful and the last time I checked, LA has been offered by various rifle manufacturers for nearly a century if not longer. I would think that even with the extra powder a long action case provides, along with the use of heavier bullets, would still not prevent the disappearance of a LA if they were not acceptably accurate.
Re: Short action VS Long action
No one said they were not accurate.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Things that don't work are rarely successful and the last time I checked, LA has been offered by various rifle manufacturers for nearly a century if not longer. I would think that even with the extra powder a long action case provides, along with the use of heavier bullets, would still not prevent the disappearance of a LA if they were not acceptably accurate. </div></div>
No one said they were not accurate.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Things that don't work are rarely successful and the last time I checked, LA has been offered by various rifle manufacturers for nearly a century if not longer. I would think that even with the extra powder a long action case provides, along with the use of heavier bullets, would still not prevent the disappearance of a LA if they were not acceptably accurate. </div></div>
Re: Short action VS Long action
if you think a short action "enhanced accuracy" over a long action, put a number on it. how much, exactly, does a short action enhance accuracy once you have the scope mounted and the action bedded and torqued into the stock?
if you think a short action "enhanced accuracy" over a long action, put a number on it. how much, exactly, does a short action enhance accuracy once you have the scope mounted and the action bedded and torqued into the stock?
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get your facts from engineering and report back.
</div></div>
Really? So you don't think engineers took any of these factors into consideration? They just said "let's add 7/8" and it will be fine"?
That's your stance?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get your facts from engineering and report back.
</div></div>
Really? So you don't think engineers took any of these factors into consideration? They just said "let's add 7/8" and it will be fine"?
That's your stance?
Re: Short action VS Long action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen plenty of the long, magnum, and 50 calibers get out shot at 1000k by smaller calibers. </div></div>
and i have seen long actions beat short actions plenty of times. that does not mean that a long action is inherently more accurate nor does your statement mean that a short action is more accurate.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen plenty of the long, magnum, and 50 calibers get out shot at 1000k by smaller calibers. </div></div>
and i have seen long actions beat short actions plenty of times. that does not mean that a long action is inherently more accurate nor does your statement mean that a short action is more accurate.
Re: Short action VS Long action
Post the data.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get your facts from engineering and report back.
</div></div>
Really? So you don't think engineers took any of these factors into consideration? They just said "let's add 7/8" and it will be fine"?
That's your stance? </div></div>
Post the data.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get your facts from engineering and report back.
</div></div>
Really? So you don't think engineers took any of these factors into consideration? They just said "let's add 7/8" and it will be fine"?
That's your stance? </div></div>
