Short action VS Long action

#51
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen plenty of the long, magnum, and 50 calibers get out shot at 1000k by smaller calibers.</div></div>

Completely irrelevant fallacy. Has nothing to do with the conversation and has way too many factors to even be brought into this discussion.
 
#52
Re: Short action VS Long action

Ok. 100,200 or 600 yards??


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen plenty of the long, magnum, and 50 calibers get out shot at 1000k by smaller calibers.</div></div>

Completely irrelevant fallacy. Has nothing to do with the conversation and has way too many factors to even be brought into this discussion. </div></div>
 
#53
Re: Short action VS Long action

Call Bat and ask them that question.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen plenty of the long, magnum, and 50 calibers get out shot at 1000k by smaller calibers. </div></div>

and i have seen long actions beat short actions plenty of times. that does not mean that a long action is inherently more accurate nor does your statement mean that a short action is more accurate. </div></div>
 
#54
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Call Bat and ask them that question.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen plenty of the long, magnum, and 50 calibers get out shot at 1000k by smaller calibers. </div></div>

and i have seen long actions beat short actions plenty of times. that does not mean that a long action is inherently more accurate nor does your statement mean that a short action is more accurate. </div></div> </div></div>

which question?
 
#55
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one said they were not accurate.
</div></div>

Actually you inferred it. You said.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Short actions are more rigid, enhancing accuracy.
</div></div>

To "enhance" accuracy you have to have a measurement of baseline. The inference is that whatever that measurement is, one variable can reach a point that the other variable cannot. Therefore, you implied that the LA is not accurate by saying the SA can do things a LA cannot by saying it "enhances" accuracy. If the SA "enhances" accuracy than you are saying it is more accurate than the LA. If you are saying the SA can do things the LA cannot, you are saying the LA is not accurate.

If I have a rifle that will shoot a 5 shot group into 10" I can say it is an accurate rifle. If a 5 shot group into 10" does not meet your criterion of being accurate, you will say it is not an accurate rifle.
 
#56
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok. 100,200 or 600 yards??


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen plenty of the long, magnum, and 50 calibers get out shot at 1000k by smaller calibers.</div></div>

Completely irrelevant fallacy. Has nothing to do with the conversation and has way too many factors to even be brought into this discussion. </div></div></div></div>

The question is on you. At what length can you shoot an identically built rifle, one with a LA and one with a SA and the LA will be less accurate?
 
#57
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok. 100,200 or 600 yards??
</div></div>

you would need to build two identical rifles one short and one long. you can use the same barrel. it still would not be a 100% accurate comparison but about as close as one could get.
 
#58
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get your facts from engineering and report back.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And one thing we are not taking into consideration here are the engineers. I don't know this for a fact but I am going to go out on a limb and say that everything being discussed here has been examined ad naseum by the engineering staff at the major rifle manufacturers. I am also willing to wager that they took all of the physics into consideration when creating the blueprints for these actions. Plus, I'm sure the CAD programs they use have these factors written in to the equation as well. </div></div></div></div>

I will email Remington and see if they know what they are talking about. Will you accept their answer as gospel?
 
#59
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Call Bat and ask them that question.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shooter65</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have seen plenty of the long, magnum, and 50 calibers get out shot at 1000k by smaller calibers. </div></div>

and i have seen long actions beat short actions plenty of times. that does not mean that a long action is inherently more accurate nor does your statement mean that a short action is more accurate. </div></div></div></div>

I guess Bat is the only source for information regarding actions? Their engineers have the data on hand that we can post here? Or are we going to continue to ignore the science and only go on speculation?
 
#61
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When long actions are easily capable of .5 moa accuracy (assuming proper build), who really gives a shit?

Maybe a BR thing, but for field precision, it's totally irrelvant.</div></div>

MM, that's exactly our point. Any variability is insignificant and will not affect the rifle's accuracy whatsoever.
 
#62
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trevor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So the long action is not less rigid then the short action? That's not right a longer cylinder will always deflect more and be less rigid then a short cylinder having the same diameter. And if we couldn't measure it how could you say that the longer less rigid action wouldn't affect accuracy? In order to equal the difference in rigidity of a shorter action one would have to beef up the longer or get a custom. There was no Bullshit comment made.</div></div>

sure a longer cylinder will deflect more if they were only attached to the opposite end as the load. you are failing to take into account the longer radius between the front and rear screws and the front ring and rear tang bedding areas creating a more rigid receiver to stock fit. think of it this way, it would be harder to rip a long action out of a stock by pulling up on the barrel. i think the "less rigid" long action negatives are a wash when you figure in the gains from how it is fit into the stock. </div></div>

Add to that the realization that an action can have a bolt that completely floats in the rear race support under the bridge and still have a fantastic rifle. The tenon ring is the running away leader for where the machining needs to be correct in the action.

A long action is softer in bending and compression, however the tenon geometry is identical.

A good barrel, properly chambered, mated to a good/flat recoil lug and a "blueprinted" tenon lockup is going to shoot better than you can imagine.
 
#63
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When long actions are easily capable of .5 moa accuracy (assuming proper build), who really gives a shit?

Maybe a BR thing, but for field precision, it's totally irrelevant. </div></div>

Well said.

I've personally watched a guy shoot a long action 6mmBR built from a Rem 700 mop the floor with everyone else shooting all manner of factory, short, long, custom, etc actions in 600yd BR at my club.

Properly chambered, fitted barrels mated to a tenon that has been properly machined is going to shoot.
 
#64
Re: Short action VS Long action

I believe that Harold Vaughn did some testing with strain gauges in this department. I loaned out the book so I don't have the quotes. However, the short action generally should be more accurate because of its length, all other things being equal. Does this make a difference for the tactical shooter? That is the ongoing debate. To some it matters, to some it does not. I would think that most rifles in and of themselves would have more accuracy differences than the action length (barrel differences, trueness, shooter ability. To say it is not more accurate is false, as it has been proven that the short action is more rigid; however, to the extent that someone shooting at steel would notice, probably not. It is like comparing a single shot to a repeater and saying they shoot the same. If they all shoot the same, why do people buy custom actions? Just my opinion.
 
#65
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Red_SC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The problem with the longer bolt isn't the tolerances when the bolt is locked up, it's that you need to break your cheekweld when you run the bolt. </div></div>

I must be doing it wrong because I don't have that problem on any of my long actions.
 
#66
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Red_SC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The problem with the longer bolt isn't the tolerances when the bolt is locked up, it's that you need to break your cheekweld when you run the bolt. </div></div>

I must be doing it wrong because I don't have that problem on any of my long actions. </div></div>

Well said. All my bolt rifles are and have been LA and I've never had this problem. The myth that cheek weld can't be maintained while cycling LA rifles is exactly that, a myth.
 
#67
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The myth that cheek weld can't be maintained while cycling LA rifles is exactly that, a myth.</div></div>

It's not a myth. The LA 6.5x284 I just sold could cycle the bolt without hitting my face. It depends on the eye relief of the scope, the LOP and how comfortable you are pulling the bolt back.
 
#68
Re: Short action VS Long action

i now keep my cheek weld while cycling my long action. i am not sure what changed but i used to need to move my head to cycle it. now i just need to turn my hat sideways a bit. i can certainly see some people needing to move their head though.
 
#69
Re: Short action VS Long action

Mike I agree that it has to do with LOP and eye relief but that has no relevance to the length of the action. You can have that issue the LA or SA. And if one is having issue with loosing cheek weld while cycling the bolt then they need to look at changing the configuration of the rifle it has nothing to do with the length of the action.
 
#70
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mike I agree that it has to do with LOP and eye relief but that has no relevance to the length of the action. You can have that issue the LA or SA. And if one is having issue with loosing cheek weld while cycling the bolt then they need to look at changing the configuration of the rifle it has nothing to do with the length of the action.</div></div>

Longshot you are correct and I am in total agreement with you. I misread your post and thought you said a cheek weld could not be maintained. My bad.
 
#71
Re: Short action VS Long action

Rem 700 SA has a shorter lock time than the LA. I think it's in the Vaughn book and it's been mentioned a couple of times in Precision Shooting and the old Tactical Shooter magazines.
 
#72
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dinc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rem 700 SA has a shorter lock time than the LA. I think it's in the Vaughn book and it's been mentioned a couple of times in Precision Shooting and the old Tactical Shooter magazines.</div></div>

by how much? Milliseconds?
 
#73
Re: Short action VS Long action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dinc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rem 700 SA has a shorter lock time than the LA. I think it's in the Vaughn book and it's been mentioned a couple of times in Precision Shooting and the old Tactical Shooter magazines. </div></div>

How could a SA have a shorter lock time than a LA when the differences are just a matter of scale?
 
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