Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

Killer Spade 13

Killer Spade 13

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 28, 2011
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75
Roswell, Ga.
#1
A question from one of the great unwashed and uninformed . . .

How many shots does one really need to do a group?
Seems to me 3 is enough.
Is there any good reason to do more?
Wouldn't that serve only to heat up the barrell and start getting fliers?
 
#2
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1844402

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Sniper's Hide Group Shot Policy v2 2010</span>

In an effort to increase awareness and increase proficiency in shooting, Sniper's Hide is modifying its group shot policy from this point forward. It is every members responsibility to understand and follow this policy in order to make the site a better place. This is not meant as an attack on anyone or any company based on their accuracy standards, merely a way to help each of us be a better shooter.

From this day forward I am deleting any 3 shot groups, and especially any groups that are groups within a group.

So here are the revised rules for posting groups on Sniper's Hide.


1. You must show the Entire target unedited.

2. Inside 300 yards you must post at least (4) 5 shot groups that can be identified on target or you may post (1) 10 shot group for record. I will also accept (6) 3 shot groups on the same paper or target.

3. Anything beyond 300 yards a minimum of 5 shots is required. Please note Rule #1 about the unedited target.

4. The group shot rules can be bypassed with a target using 10 or more 1/2" dots with one individual round on each dot for a minimum of 10 shots. You can download the Sniper's Hide Dot Drill Target from this site to use in place of showing a group that does not meet the above criteria. You can also show a group containing less than required if you have it as part of a video showing you actually shooting the group.

5. Shots on steel can only be used for demonstration purposes and not as part of an exhibition of group shooting. These images must be in conjunction with rifles, optics, etc... they cannot be standalone.

6. Groups shots must be within 2 MOA of the aiming point, otherwise I consider the shots a miss.


This is my effort to help everyone strive to be a better shooter and to shun mediocrity. At Sniper's Hide we want to set the standard of what shooting good groups means, and we encourage those who are practicing to display their groups especially if you are working on improving your skills.

Any group currently posted on the site will be grandfathered in, however moving forward I ask the membership to be vigilant in enforcing the group shot rules and regulations. <span style="font-style: italic">However this does not give any member license to be combative or argumentative with another member simply because they failed to adhere to the guidelines proposed. I do not want a thread destroyed from a member simply because they did not understand this policy.</span> I think you'll thank me in the long run and we'll help raise the bar for everyone.

</div></div>
 
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#4
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

At what distance do you believe a 3 shot group is the truth say'er of stick an shooter?
850yds + with a .308 maybe, depending.
A 300wm class of flight, has to be at least 1K yds plus.
 
#5
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

Shooting groups is a method of finding answers to questions.

So it depends on the questions.

Are we trying to find out what the rifle/ammo will do? Are we trying to find out what the rifle/ammo/shooter will do? Are we trying to find out what the rifle/ammo/shooter will do under specific conditions?

Each of these is a different question, with different criteria governing their testing.

If we are looking for a quantitative answer (i.e. the answer has a precise number associated with it), then the main criteria has a statistical basis. The reliability of the resulting statistics improves as the dataset grows. In this case, I would shoot more groups containing more rounds. The first two questions, IMHO, fit this category.

If we are looking for a qualitative answer (i.e. the answer to the question can be expressed by a yes or a no), then the key criteria are associated with the ability to precisely duplicate the required conditions.

For example; if the question is about how well a particular load will work in a match stage, then testing needs to be fired precisely according to the Match Course Of Fire, and the answer will regard whether the load performs better, the same, or worse than previous experience. One COF would not be sufficient to gain my trust.

If I've made my point, then my stating of particular numbers of rounds, groups, etc. is immaterial. The numbers become a factor of <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> own confidence; and how many are required for <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> to trust <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> own results.

Greg
 
#6
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting groups is a method of finding answers to questions.
</div></div>

Well said.

Incidentally, my post wasn't intended as a comprehensive answer to your question as it really only applies to the rules concerning dick measuring contests on the hide, but I figured it would be a good reminder to include at the beginning to head off any downward trend in the conversation as it develops.
 
#8
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

The More shots, the more accurate the data.

Depends on how you shoot also. If you're testing your gun's ability in rapid fire, the a 3 shot group wont cut it, you need a 10 shot string, preferrably a serries of 10 shot strings then over lay the targets.

You're checking for consistency, the more shots the better ideal.
 
#9
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

No problem, Ratbert.
Just curious.
I was just thinking that the colder the bore, the more realistic the shot would be to a true tactical situation.

Just made up some 10 shot targets in Excel . . .

Thursdaly is the day!!!

I'll see just what "Cracker Jack" can do.
 
#10
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Killer Spade 13</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
How many shots does one really need to do a group?
Seems to me 3 is enough.
Is there any good reason to do more?
Wouldn't that serve only to heat up the barrell and start getting fliers? </div></div>

AE_0729_ontgt.jpg


AE_0731_ontgt.jpg


AE_0732_ontgt.jpg


Barrel heat is not a factor here.

What is a factor is that folks want the smallest bragging group possible. That comes from less shots. Rarely ever will you see someone post five, five shot groups when they are bragging about their 1/4 MOA rifle. It usually comes down to a three shot group and a "flyer" or two.

BTW, it's only a "flyer" if you know you kicked it out (called it) before you see the shot hole. It's not "flyer" anymore if you think it's a good shot and it just happens to mess up your pretty picture.
 
#11
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

Understood, Jar Head.
When I was on the UGA rifle team our coach would make us "call" each shot. He would call sight adjustments based upon our observations upon firing the round.

Remember the first time I ever shot a "possible". Holding the 3 targets stacked one upon the other and seeing daylight through the holes in the centers of all 10 bulls. That was very satisfying.

"Calling" our shots taught us concentration on sight picture and trigger squeeze.
 
#13
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i tend to get sub MOA everytime i shoot a 1 round group, try that and your groups will shrink considerably</div></div>

Noob.

Just use a No.2 pencil - it's amazing how tight you can get your groups with one!
 
#14
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

So glad I finally found some rules on this. I've always used 4 x 5 shot groups for less than 300 metres. Needing at least 4 of 5 with called flyer. There are so many posts about sub MOA shooting that for a relative beginner you don't know where you stand. I suspect seeing 4 x 5 shot groups would eliminate some of the sub moa resultsnand that would make it far easier for people like myself to self assess progress.
 
#15
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really nee

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1844402

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Sniper's Hide Group Shot Policy v2 2010</span>

In an effort to increase awareness and increase proficiency in shooting, Sniper's Hide is modifying its group shot policy from this point forward. It is every members responsibility to understand and follow this policy in order to make the site a better place. This is not meant as an attack on anyone or any company based on their accuracy standards, merely a way to help each of us be a better shooter.

From this day forward I am deleting any 3 shot groups, and especially any groups that are groups within a group.

So here are the revised rules for posting groups on Sniper's Hide.

1. You must show the Entire target unedited.

2. Inside 300 yards you must post at least (4) 5 shot groups that can be identified on target or you may post (1) 10 shot group for record. I will also accept (6) 3 shot groups on the same paper or target.

3. Anything beyond 300 yards a minimum of 5 shots is required. Please note Rule #1 about the unedited target



4. The group shot rules can be bypassed with a target using 10 or more 1/2" dots with one individual round on each dot for a minimum of 10 shots. You can download the Sniper's Hide Dot Drill Target from this site to use in place of showing a group that does not meet the above criteria. You can also show a group containing less than required if you have it as part of a video showing you actually shooting the group.

5. Shots on steel can only be used for demonstration purposes and not as part of an exhibition of group shooting. These images must be in conjunction with rifles, optics, etc... they cannot be standalone.

6. Groups shots must be within 2 MOA of the aiming point, otherwise I consider the shots a miss.


This is my effort to help everyone strive to be a better shooter and to shun mediocrity. At Sniper's Hide we want to set the standard of what shooting good groups means, and we encourage those who are practicing to display their groups especially if you are working on improving your skills.









Any group currently posted on the site will be grandfathered in, however moving forward I ask the membership to be vigilant in enforcing the group shot rules and regulations. <span style="font-style: italic">However this does not give any member license to be combative or argumentative with another member simply because they failed to adhere to the guidelines proposed. I do not want a thread destroyed from a member simply because they did not understand this policy.</span> I think you'll thank me in the long run and we'll help raise the bar for everyone.

</div></div> </div></div>



With all due respect this rule and many others are broken each and everyday so why even have them? I spend more time reading than posting and see things like vulgar language in post, especially in responses, see mods doing it in the shout box. Selling by members that really know better in the SB.Senseless replies abound, the"old timers" are encouraged to hammer a newbie, folks selling stuff in the classifieds for others and so on.......these are all against the forum rules are they not? This post is off topic, another broken rule ha ha
 
#16
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

I've shot groups consisting of as many as 20 rounds. It's all about finding consistency in your whole rig, which consists of the rifle, ammo and shooter.

Heat/cold bore is something that I don't even consider. A good barrel should not be affected much, if at all, as it heats up. I have what I believe to be a pretty good rifle and as the barrel gets hot, the groups will open up some, but the POI doesn't shift. Not so much that I'd notice, anyway.

I believe that a better method of measuring consistency of your rig (rifle, ammo and shooter) is doing dot drills, which is what I spend most of my time doing when I practice. I believe that shooting dot drills or transitions and getting good results is a pretty good indication of how solid your rifle is and how consistent you are with your cheek weld.
 
#17
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

Actually, the only grouup to date I brag about was a 20 round group, a bit under 1/2 MOA. 10 rounds and then remove and remount the scope, then 10 more rounds. That is a measure of an accurate rifle...to bad that was 6000 rounds ago and I have been unable to duplicate it!
laugh.gif
 
#18
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?


I think a shot in five dots on a dot drill is a better measure than a small five shot group. Especially if you can do it from any position.
I'd trade all the nice groups I ever shot to be able to do that.
 
#20
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">........BTW, it's only a "flyer" if you know you kicked it out (called it) before you see the shot hole. It's not "flyer" anymore if you think it's a good shot and it just happens to mess up your pretty picture. </div></div>

Crap - that rule just ruined my day!

For me it is amazing though how often I get a good 3-4 shot group going. I get 4 touching and the last friggen one is off... Highlights the need for practice/concentration.
 
#22
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: el gordo2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1844402

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Sniper's Hide Group Shot Policy v2 2010</span>

In an effort to increase awareness and increase proficiency in shooting, Sniper's Hide is modifying its group shot policy from this point forward. It is every members responsibility to understand and follow this policy in order to make the site a better place. This is not meant as an attack on anyone or any company based on their accuracy standards, merely a way to help each of us be a better shooter.

From this day forward I am deleting any 3 shot groups, and especially any groups that are groups within a group.

So here are the revised rules for posting groups on Sniper's Hide.

1. You must show the Entire target unedited.

2. Inside 300 yards you must post at least (4) 5 shot groups that can be identified on target or you may post (1) 10 shot group for record. I will also accept (6) 3 shot groups on the same paper or target.

3. Anything beyond 300 yards a minimum of 5 shots is required. Please note Rule #1 about the unedited target



4. The group shot rules can be bypassed with a target using 10 or more 1/2" dots with one individual round on each dot for a minimum of 10 shots. You can download the Sniper's Hide Dot Drill Target from this site to use in place of showing a group that does not meet the above criteria. You can also show a group containing less than required if you have it as part of a video showing you actually shooting the group.

5. Shots on steel can only be used for demonstration purposes and not as part of an exhibition of group shooting. These images must be in conjunction with rifles, optics, etc... they cannot be standalone.

6. Groups shots must be within 2 MOA of the aiming point, otherwise I consider the shots a miss.


This is my effort to help everyone strive to be a better shooter and to shun mediocrity. At Sniper's Hide we want to set the standard of what shooting good groups means, and we encourage those who are practicing to display their groups especially if you are working on improving your skills.









Any group currently posted on the site will be grandfathered in, however moving forward I ask the membership to be vigilant in enforcing the group shot rules and regulations. <span style="font-style: italic">However this does not give any member license to be combative or argumentative with another member simply because they failed to adhere to the guidelines proposed. I do not want a thread destroyed from a member simply because they did not understand this policy.</span> I think you'll thank me in the long run and we'll help raise the bar for everyone.

</div></div> </div></div>



With all due respect this rule and many others are broken each and everyday so why even have them? I spend more time reading than posting and see things like vulgar language in post, especially in responses, see mods doing it in the shout box. Selling by members that really know better in the SB.Senseless replies abound, the"old timers" are encouraged to hammer a newbie, folks selling stuff in the classifieds for others and so on.......these are all against the forum rules are they not? This post is off topic, another broken rule ha ha</div></div>

Another good one is people with pics in their signature that are too big.
 
#23
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

I don't recall where I read the discussion, but I think it was in the Speer reloading manual. Their statistical analysis determined that seven-round groups were optimal in terms of minimum ammo (and time) to get maximum data.

But, as noted above, it depends on what you want to know.
 
#25
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The numbers become a factor of <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> own confidence; and how many are required for <span style="font-style: italic">you</span> to trust <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> own results.

Greg </div></div>

Nice!
 
#26
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

Well, learning a thing or two about shot groups and dot drills.
It's absolutely amamzing how important one's cheek weld and subsequent sight picture alignment is to precise shooting.

I did a dot drill with my new build and was far from satisfied.

While the elevations were consistent, I had very noticeable lateral impact points. I was readjusting my scope for perpendicularity/parallelism and while doing so noticed that it is very, very easy to move the vertical stadia left and right of the intended POI.

I intend to repeat the dot drill paying a great deal more attention to my cheek weld and "sight picture".

Live and learn.
 
#27
Re: Shot Groups - How many shots do you really need?

TonyAngel said:
I've shot groups consisting of as many as 20 rounds. It's all about finding consistency in your whole rig, which consists of the rifle, ammo and shooter.

I have to agree with the caveat that the group is bang on the target/point of aim. What is the point of a tiny group a mile from what you want to hit?

Three might get you on target; five tells a story; ten or twenty gives the whole picture of how well everything is going which tells a whole lot about the shooter as well. The more rounds the more truth. Flyers are part of the truth.

I'm definitely getting older and find shooting tiny groups harder. I can just shoot tight enough to know if the rifle, optics and ammo is shooting straighter than me. I might shoot to just about under 1MOA but can feel the hardware going to 1/2 MOA. Thats when I'm happy with my rifle combination. If the POI is on the POA then I'm happy as punch as then I'm zeroed. But the real marksmanship is to get that POI spot on the actual target and keep it there in the field at different distances, conditions and firing positions. That is marksmanship and what we all need to work at.

Knowing my limitations if I get a 1/4 inch group or under with a rifle combination I'm happy with then its luck. Over 1 inch then its more likely lazy shooting, or poor marksmanship as I already know/tested that the rifle does better. However, this is with practical rifles for the field and practice groups on the range are only done for confidence. I've never done a group on live quarry.

Lastly, when shooting long range, beyond point blank (200m-300m plus??) I no longer think of it as a group but "shots to count". 5, 7 or ten shots to count as with all the skilled dialing needed to keep things in the middle you are shooting to the conditions and not your set up.
Click to expand...
 
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