Shot placement vs impact velocity

[Dot3]

Is there a point at which you choose a different POA/POI on a game animal based on impact velocity of a bullet like a TMK or ELD-M? I.e. a 168gr tmk impacting above 2000 FPS should go in behind the shoulder, 2000 FPS or below should go into the shoulder.

I hunt mid Atlantic whitetails exclusively, but hope to hunt bigger game before I die. I’m experimenting with 168 tmks at around 2850 fps. So far, so good within 410 yards. 4 deer, Everything behind the shoulder. I want to stretch it further and am just trying to get an idea of what to expect and whether different velocities call for different strategies. I’m down to around 1500fps at 800 yards.

 

[wpeach1912]

A game animal hit in the vitals is usually going to die pretty quick, so I don't see any reason to choose different POA. You can always just shoot them in the head or neck if you need instant incapacitation. You'd probably want to limit range to the minimum expansion velocity distance. Usually that's around 1800 fps.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

One killing shot.
Rather lose the opportunity than risk it suffering.
Heart or brain.
People need to learn the anatomy of their targets.

 

[Dot3]

One killing shot.
Rather lose the opportunity than risk it suffering.
Heart or brain.
People need to learn the anatomy of their targets.

I understand and appreciate the argument for headshots. I just haven’t been convinced to use it. Efficacy is priority one. I’ve seen some real suffering come from a botched headshot which is still less likely than having a clean miss. I do understand a deer’s anatomy and will continue to strive for heart/lung/CNS shots. Your point is definitely taken and will be considered more.

 

[Rookie]

I too have seen botched headshots even at close range. Also I stay out of brain/spinal cord tissue because of the possibility of deer wasting disease.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

I also don't like headshots, I think people don't realize the actual kill zone on a deer or elk head is pretty damb small.
I had a dumbass friend shoot a bull in the face at 50 yards and blew his jaw off.
The impact was only a few inches below the center of the eyes and all it did was mane him badly

 

[W54/XM-388]

I also don't like headshots, I think people don't realize the actual kill zone on a deer or elk head is pretty damb small.
I had a dumbass friend shoot a bull in the face at 50 yards and blew his jaw off.
The impact was only a few inches below the center of the eyes and all it did was mane him badly

And make sure the animal dies a slow painful death, unless somebody puts it out of it's misery.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

head shots..

used to do it a bunch. feral goats, antelope, deer.. nowadays not a fan. brain is way smaller then you think. and it's gory. and that part of the body moves a lot.

and if you fuck up, there's no waiting for it to die. it's gonna suffer for a long time.

on whitetails i'd put it in the crease and make sure ur knives are sharp.

from experience below 2200fps on most all bullets i'm putting it further forward just a tad.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Even if I'm confident of shot placement, always have that second round chambered.
Same as ready to back up my shooting companions, suffering shouldn't be part of the hunting plan.
Unless it's my struggling up the never ending incline.

 

[308pirate]

I understand and appreciate the argument for headshots. I just haven’t been convinced to use it. Efficacy is priority one. I’ve seen some real suffering come from a botched headshot which is still less likely than having a clean miss. I do understand a deer’s anatomy and will continue to strive for heart/lung/CNS shots. Your point is definitely taken and will be considered more.

Then use bullets that will penetrate and expand no matter what.

Match bullets are not that.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Is there a point at which you choose a different POA/POI on a game animal based on impact velocity of a bullet like a TMK or ELD-M? I.e. a 168gr tmk impacting above 2000 FPS should go in behind the shoulder, 2000 FPS or below should go into the shoulder.

I hunt mid Atlantic whitetails exclusively, but hope to hunt bigger game before I die. I’m experimenting with 168 tmks at around 2850 fps. So far, so good within 410 yards. 4 deer, Everything behind the shoulder. I want to stretch it further and am just trying to get an idea of what to expect and whether different velocities call for different strategies. I’m down to around 1500fps at 800 yards.

Talking shot placement and terminal performance of hunting bullets will always be a fight on a gun forum, lol. I'd find friends in the know you trust and follow their lead.
Go to Long Range Hunting forum and view some Hammer bullet threads, older Berger bashing threads pale in comparison.

 

[Dot3]

Then use bullets that will penetrate and expand no matter what.

Match bullets are not that.

Correct. We are all looking for the magic unicorn but as it were, there's nothing but tradeoffs. I shot Sciroccos for a long time. They were extremely tough, "reliably" worked (as in, dead deer), but there were instances where it seemed like their toughness was a tradeoff. I.e. minimal blood trails. So I made it a point to put them into the shoulder blade to ensure expansion. I've only switched to TMKs bc the swifts are unobtanium and they only shot so-so. I've seen a lot of TMK kills, but not as much discussion about where to put the bullet. I'm not really wanting to do the experimenting on a live animal if someone else already has, hence the question.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Then use bullets that will penetrate and expand no matter what.
Match bullets are not that.

For nearly 20 years now, myself and everybody I hunt with have used almost exclusively match bullets. We've killed countless deer, elk, antelope and more at ranges most wouldn't. Never had or seen someone else not get an animal that was hit properly.

My brother shot this buck a few weeks back, just over a thousand yards with a 140 gr BTHP Hornady Match. Dropped him right into that chute.


OP, I actually love this topic. I wrote my thoughts on it if you'd care to read:

Is Shot Placement More Important than cartridge and bullet selection?

cartridge and bullet selection are important subjects, but are they more important than shot placement on the target?

coldboremiracle.com

 

[Dot3]

For nearly 20 years now, myself and everybody I hunt with have used almost exclusively match bullets. We've killed countless deer, elk, antelope and more at ranges most wouldn't. Never had or seen someone else not get an animal that was hit properly.

My brother shot this buck a few weeks back, just over a thousand yards with a 140 gr BTHP Hornady Match. Dropped him right into that chute.


OP, I actually love this topic. I wrote my thoughts on it if you'd care to read:

Is Shot Placement More Important than cartridge and bullet selection?

cartridge and bullet selection are important subjects, but are they more important than shot placement on the target?

coldboremiracle.com

Very good write up. I followed up with your article about impact velocity and the instance of the 143 not opening. It begged the question: would it have helped initiate expansion had it hit shoulder blade? Doesn’t much matter, he dead. I enjoy the topic too so thank you for taking the time to write about it.

 

[308pirate]

For nearly 20 years now, myself and everybody I hunt with have used almost exclusively match bullets. We've killed countless deer, elk, antelope and more at ranges most wouldn't. Never had or seen someone else not get an animal that was hit properly.

My brother shot this buck a few weeks back, just over a thousand yards with a 140 gr BTHP Hornady Match. Dropped him right into that chute.


OP, I actually love this topic. I wrote my thoughts on it if you'd care to read:

Is Shot Placement More Important than cartridge and bullet selection?

cartridge and bullet selection are important subjects, but are they more important than shot placement on the target?

coldboremiracle.com

One man crusade

Cool story

 

[Feniks Technologies]

One man crusade

Cool story

To be fair, quite a few places (gunwerks for example) use match bullets almost exclusively. The theory being shot placement > everything and match bullets are easier to achieve this with. I’ll look for it, but several videos out there utilizing A-Tips and such.

While yes, places like GW are controversially priced and such, they are absolutely top notch in the services they provide as far as hunting.

And also to be fair, for every person advocating for march bullets, there’s others saying not.


I know many reputable guides and companies who recommend match bullets. But it’s just like telling people you dial wind or shoot over 25 power in prs…….you just get dragged over the coals. So it’s not worth discussing or bringing up much.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I use hybrids, eld-m's, and sometimes SMKs exclusively on NC whitetails. The hybrids and ELDs have been excellent on high shoulders and vital hits. SMKs did better on the shoulders. Deer sizes were from 80lbs-185lbs. All dead and none either took a step or went more than 30 yards tops. There is a reason why hunting bullets cost more to the end user but don't cost more in production. Nothing wrong with hunting bullets at all. The nosler ABLR is an awesome bullet. So are the Berger hunting bullets. I just ordered some of the Berger 133g elite hunter .257 to try out in a .25cm

 

[H3avyhitt3r]

To be fair, quite a few places (gunwerks for example) use match bullets almost exclusively. The theory being shot placement > everything and match bullets are easier to achieve this with. I’ll look for it, but several videos out there utilizing A-Tips and such.

While yes, places like GW are controversially priced and such, they are absolutely top notch in the services they provide as far as hunting.

And also to be fair, for every person advocating for march bullets, there’s others saying not.


I know many reputable guides and companies who recommend match bullets. But it’s just like telling people you dial wind or shoot over 25 power in prs…….you just get dragged over the coals. So it’s not worth discussing or bringing up much.

 

[H3avyhitt3r]

Please respond to your messages. Thanks

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I know many reputable guides and companies who recommend match bullets. But it’s just like telling people you dial wind or shoot over 25 power in prs…….you just get dragged over the coals. So it’s not worth discussing or bringing up much.

This made me remember something. The guide that Caylen and Phil knows was on their podcast not too long ago. He's a lifelong elk guide and when talking about cartridge/bullet combinations, both he and Caylen spoke on the consistent lethality of the 180 ELDM 7mm bullet and how well it works on Elk at distance or up close. I dont shoot anything 7mm but i can attest to how well amax's and eldms work on thinner skinned whitetail.

 

[KnowNothing256]

This made me remember something. The guide that Caylen and Phil knows was on their podcast not too long ago. He's a lifelong elk guide and when talking about cartridge/bullet combinations, both he and Caylen spoke on the consistent lethality of the 180 ELDM 7mm bullet and how well it works on Elk at distance or up close. I dont shoot anything 7mm but i can attest to how well amax's and eldms work on thinner skinned whitetail.

Are you sure they said ELDM? They’ve pitched the 143 ELDX on a podcast I recall, but obv you’re referring to a 7mm bullet (Caylen runs a 7 SAUM). What episode was this?

 

[warnera1102]

This made me remember something. The guide that Caylen and Phil knows was on their podcast not too long ago. He's a lifelong elk guide and when talking about cartridge/bullet combinations, both he and Caylen spoke on the consistent lethality of the 180 ELDM 7mm bullet and how well it works on Elk at distance or up close. I dont shoot anything 7mm but i can attest to how well amax's and eldms work on thinner skinned whitetail.

I can give an example regarding the 7mm. I use to shoot ELDx and ELDM bullets on the same deer as you in a 7mm RM which I belive is overkill for this area and deer size. Now I just use my 6.5G or 300 BO. Typically anything under 200 yards (in my experiance with the 7mmRM) with the ELD the round looked like someone pulled the pin on a gernade and tossed it into the chest cavity. These are shots quartering to and away. I did have one go directly through a shoulder blade and do the same damage. Now I did shoot a deer at 400 yards and retrieved the ELDX bulled which mantained 89% after I found the round. it mushroomed out perfectly. I am a advocate for shot placement over bad placement and letting the bullet energy take up the slack.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Are you sure they said ELDM? They’ve pitched the 143 ELDX on a podcast I recall, but obv you’re referring to a 7mm bullet (Caylen runs a 7 SAUM). What episode was this?

Yes, it was the 180 eldm. Just went back and looked and it was episode 56. Hornady doesn't make a 180gr ELDX, only an ELDM is that weight. Go check out the podcast. Its a really great episode.

 

[zeroz]

I got away from jacketed bullets for hunting. Not because they didn't kill well, because they fell apart and wasted meat. I had two elk where I lost a bunch of meat to lead spatter and called it quits. If you don't butcher your own you may never know it. The lead cores were spattering a paste in the meat, far and wide from the wound channel. Blew my mind. All I recovered were pieces of jacket. Good chance a fairly busy processor would toss the leaded meat in the grinder and maybe not even know. Chunks of lead you can shit out just fine, paste/powder arent good and tossing meat makes me sad. Switched to barnes TTSX for big game. Ive only recovered one in a whole bunch of critters, the rest passed on through leaving plenty of damage and no lead. On the one that was recovered, the elk was up a very steep hill and a took a frontal shot at 125 as they were about to spook. Went in the chest, blew through sternum, lungs and then a few vertebrae. It was wedged against the skin on the back. 168 grain TTSX had one broken off petal and still weighed 159 after blowing through a bunch of bone.

 

[wjwill]

I have always gone for headshots on deer as I do not put trophies on the wall and a head shot means more meat in the freezer. I have bought up A LOT of Hornady 178gr AMAX back in the day and still sit on more projectiles than I will ever shoot. But I take great caution in my shots while hunting. If I have the slightest bit of doubt about making the shot, I will let it walk.

When I was little, I learned a hard lesson about not placing kill shots on animals. I went out hunting with a friend and tried to take a deer with a 223 bolt action at 400 yards. I hit the deer, but didn't kill it. I went home home and told my father about it and he sent me back out with a shotgun and a flashlight to look for it. Hours passed and I never found it. I returned home to tell him that I still couldn't find it. The next day, he sold my rifle and told me that I do not deserve to have a rifle or hunt if I fail to learn the limitations of the equipment used. He was never really big in to hunting or firearms, but wanted me to be able to hunt and shoot with my friends.