Seems Apple is refusing to unlock phone for FBI. Why is a phone different from searching house, car and bank accounts? Some say it will be opening up innocent contacts to be investigated. But is not exposing a terrorist network worth that?
Should Apple Unlock Pensacola Shooter's Phone?
- Thread starter jerryrva
- Start date
Should they do it,...No they should not. Besides if LE really wanted the phone to be opened up it would be. Maybe not by a legit US faction but it could be opened up.
Toss up. With a search warrant they could do it on a 'one of' situation, but it does open the door to abuse. Kudos to them for refusing.
There is no “unlocking.” Apple has already turned over the data to which they have access. The remaining data is encrypted and Apple can’t get into it any more than I can. What the government is asking is for Apple to create backdoors, weakening the encryption. And of course only the government would have access, and it would never be abused.
And yes, of course it’s worth it to stop terrorists and pedophiles. Just like it’s worth taking all the guns away to stop mass shootings, right?
And yes, of course it’s worth it to stop terrorists and pedophiles. Just like it’s worth taking all the guns away to stop mass shootings, right?
I say fuck that terrorist. He has no rights. We already know the fbi can crack it so why even ask apple to do it for them. They already refused with the San Bernardino shooter. I applaud apple for respecting privacy, but when terrorism is involved they should step up.
You realize your a terrorist in Democrats eyes?
Nope.
If there's a warrant then the three letter agency du jour can hack away all they want.
PSA- Don't use fingerprint authentication on anything you don't want opened. IIRC, they can "coerce" you into unlocking said device using your finger. They canNOT compel you to give up a password. 5th Amendment and all. But I'm no expert.
If there's a warrant then the three letter agency du jour can hack away all they want.
PSA- Don't use fingerprint authentication on anything you don't want opened. IIRC, they can "coerce" you into unlocking said device using your finger. They canNOT compel you to give up a password. 5th Amendment and all. But I'm no expert.
I don't think you fully understand how this works.
Bet you loved the "Patriot" act too...
Apple (if they are telling the truth) does NOT have access to the encrypted data itself and does not have a specific back door built in.
So they will comply with any correctly processed legal demands and hand over the data that they have access to, but that's all they can do.
Now if they want the encrypted data, there is a couple outfits in Israel that will take care of that for you for a fee.
The FBI did something similar some time ago.
This is just more PR BS by the kids in the room to demand that the manufacturers put in "back doors" for "the public good" which of course means every government and every police department lines up to demand the same thing, which then means all the criminals have full access to your data the moment they pay off some government worker....
The adults in the room aren't the slightest bit bothered and you don't see them whining about these encrypted devices nearly as much.
Fuck no. The government already spies on us enough. We are "terrorists" according to leftists, merely for supporting the Constitution.
Let them work for the contents of the phone. Freedom has a price, even for the government.
Let them work for the contents of the phone. Freedom has a price, even for the government.
I get it. I abhore the patriot act. But this asshole isn’t even a us citizen. He committed what could be construed as an act of war.
Open it. He is a foreign national.
Who killed patriotic American kids.
No quarter. No sympathy. No hesitation.
The kid he killed is worth more than The entire population of Saudi. Fuck them!
Sirhr
Who killed patriotic American kids.
No quarter. No sympathy. No hesitation.
The kid he killed is worth more than The entire population of Saudi. Fuck them!
Sirhr
Apple can not unlock shit. There is no back door (at least that they will admit to). This has been hashed out before with the San Bernardino terrorist attack.
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
Even if they could, NO!!
2015 San Bernardino attack - Wikipedia
Apple–FBI encryption dispute - Wikipedia
Even if they could, NO!!
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In both your cases, you miss the actual point.
The government is free to take his phone and go to any one of a number of private vendors that decrypt phones for a price. That has never been in question, and is not related to the title of this thread.
What you are both suggesting is that somehow apple & other vendors should now work with every single government on every level around the world that wants everyone's data without doing any work for it, to put backdoors / key escrow into all their devices so that nobody has any security of their data anymore.
Now as to if apple/google etc are telling the truth or not, that is a different story. But the only way to design a secure encryption system is to actually make it secure. So if they did their design right, they don't have access to the encrypted data without the encryption key.
Now encryption is a cat and mouse game since the beginning of language and usually somebody has found a weakness somewhere, often not in the actual encryption itself, but a way to get around certain things because no user actually wants to type in a thousand character password each time they open their phone.
So the government can buy services from a willing party that breaks into things for a living.
Apple & google are not setup to do that, and it's not constitutional to force them to do so, even if it's "For the Children" or "Terrorists".
This is a battle that was fought hard before a lot of current folks were born, and it took a huge effort for freedom to succeed and the government to back down from their demands to have all the encryption keys and all that. Of course the next generation is all in a hurry to hand over their freedoms as fast as they can.
But don't let anyone kid you, if the adults in the room wanted the data on that phone, they would have it without any publicity at all.
I didn’t realize this shooter wasn’t American.
that makes it obvious the gov is trying to milk this for even more control and access over Americans. I’m no lawyer (I just play one on forums) but if dude was not American I don’t see were they need permission. They are not after what’s on that phone though. They are after what’s on the phone of anyone who is opposed to tyranny. They are after any true American who won’t sit by and let the constitution be trampled on. They are after the founding fathers. They hate us so bad they threatened to nuke us. Eventually the people will be pushed to far and fight back. Now I’m curious to know what their strategy is when that day comes.. being as it feels like any day now. I bet it involves martial law and suspension of the constitution..
that makes it obvious the gov is trying to milk this for even more control and access over Americans. I’m no lawyer (I just play one on forums) but if dude was not American I don’t see were they need permission. They are not after what’s on that phone though. They are after what’s on the phone of anyone who is opposed to tyranny. They are after any true American who won’t sit by and let the constitution be trampled on. They are after the founding fathers. They hate us so bad they threatened to nuke us. Eventually the people will be pushed to far and fight back. Now I’m curious to know what their strategy is when that day comes.. being as it feels like any day now. I bet it involves martial law and suspension of the constitution..
It's likely because he was a "Foreign National with a green card" and as such, is treated like a US Citizen.
As to whether they should open the phone...<shrug> Like has been said, there's only so much they have access to.
Now as to whether certain companies/organizations can crack the encryption...now that's a whole 'nuther discussion...
Not what I’m suggesting at all. It happened in the US on a US base. This is a national security issue and not a random act of violence. I get where your going but this isn’t that. When you are on a US military installation your 4th amendment rights are not applicable. It’s in the UCMJ. Now since the UCMJ doesn’t apply to this guy, neither do the protections afforded by our constitution. I mean this guy was likely going through F35 training, fuck him. .
It was NAS Pensacola....they fly trainers there, not combat aircraft (used to live on that base).
Are you kidding me?
US calls shooting by Saudi officer in Florida 'act of terrorism,' expels 21 Saudi students from training
The fatal shooting of three Americans by a Saudi Air Force officer at a Florida naval base last month was "an act of terrorism," U.S. Attorney General William Barr said on Monday, adding that 21 Saudi military trainees will be pulled out of the United States following an investigation into the...
How does that relate to the government demanding Apple either pull some (supposedly non existent) back door out of their rear end to access encrypted files that they don't have the encryption key for, or get to work breaking their own product (if they can, which there is no guarantee they can do)?
Has anyone suggested Apple refused to hand over all the plain text data and unencrypted information they do have?
Thanks. Wasn’t kidding as I don’t watch news and this forum and a airgun forum are my only source of social media.Are you kidding me?
US calls shooting by Saudi officer in Florida 'act of terrorism,' expels 21 Saudi students from training
The fatal shooting of three Americans by a Saudi Air Force officer at a Florida naval base last month was "an act of terrorism," U.S. Attorney General William Barr said on Monday, adding that 21 Saudi military trainees will be pulled out of the United States following an investigation into the...www.cnbc.com
Once again missing the point and a VERY important point that your financial and personal data security is based on.
Apple didn't "refuse to unlock" anything. That would imply that they had the capability to do so at their disposal and had the decryption keys in their hands and refused to unlock what they had access to. That is very simply NOT what happened and people need to have that pounded into their heads to counter the government propaganda being spewed out for a much more sinister purpose.
Here is a more simple way to explain it to those that don't understand encryption.
Let's say you are making a nice old fashioned dial lock for a safe.
You tell your customers that you spent years researching how to make the best lock ever, that you knew of no way to break into it, without knowing the combination. You even put in special gears to cut off access if the lock is forced or somebody is trying endless combinations to break in.
Now assuming there is no proof otherwise, it would legally stand that you designed a lock as perfect as you can and you are unable to break into it yourself.
Now later on say the government comes in and orders you to unlock a safe with one of your locks.
You tell the government, sorry, can't do. I built the lock as perfect as I could. Maybe you get someone to cut open the safe or maybe you find some other hacker with a lifetime of skill that knows what I don't know and pay them to try to break it.
Government gets all bitchy and starts BSing all over the place about how you are "refusing to unlock your lock on the safe".
This mimics Jason Bourne movie with Aaron Kalloor and the CIA , Tim Cook doesn't work with the government then the government deals with the replacement who steps in the position left vacant by the passing of Tim Cook when the government thinks he should pass natural or not.
Only the children in the room would think that is the way to do it.
The adults in the room are very happy to let the children in the room have their temper tantrum when they can't get that toy they want from the toy store shelf, and happy to make sure everyone goes on thinking their data is perfectly secure. The adults in the room don't share their tools with the children in the room because the children in the room are a bunch of blabber mouths and they have a hard enough time keeping those that work for the adults in the room from loosing / selling the tools as it is.
Ok. Look if we are talking about allowing a back door anytime I’m 100000000000000% against that. But, in this case, Apple should comply. Just my 2 cents. I’m against removing the protections and allowing access anytime. They don’t need a key
i would compromise by taking possession of the phone (or sending an apple engineer) and copying all the data from the phone to another device, and give back the phone without telling them (the fbi) how it is done.
/assuming they could.
if they can't, i don't know why they are complaining to apple.
i'm surprised it isn't all uploaded to the cloud for backup and restore.
/assuming they could.
if they can't, i don't know why they are complaining to apple.
i'm surprised it isn't all uploaded to the cloud for backup and restore.
So gov imports trash that is known to be hostile and when hostile trash acts on instincts gov demands a co construct a backdoor that was never a part of their design. Tin foil me...
If gov really wanted to stop attacks from hostile foreigners, would they be asking apple to hack their devices or blocking muslims from entry?
Haven’t read the story yet but this definitely sounds like the same fbi that was spying on our president
I don’t get what all the fuss is about. Why don’t they just say they unlocked it, make up a bunch of shit that suits their aim, and say that’s what they found? That’s what they’d do with you or I, you know, if we didn’t just kill ourselves for some reason.
Just for the record, if iCloud was enabled and syncing also enabled then Apple doesn’t even need the device. Carrier logs coupled with iMessage and the iCloud backup would tell all (Apple can decrypt iCloud backups since they are encrypted with Apple’s own private certificates). They won’t though of course.
The Feds probably want to “fingerprint” the device - GPS logs, app usage, etc. Got to be able to gain access to it to do that of course.
If the device also has the “wipe if 10 incorrect passcode attempts” option enabled that does away with the brute force method (and who knows if that is enabled or not).
Slippery slope. My vote would be for whatever rule or method that keeps soldiers upright and not horizontal - or in pieces.
Otherwise, you’re going to see a bill proposed that forces the allowance of any three-letter agency backdoor into any mobile phone sold in the US. It will take approximately one random politician and one FBI Director to stand up and say “the cure for cancer [or the answers to this case] could be without any doubt on this phone but we have no access because of the manufacturer. We will risk hundreds of agents or soldiers lives by not having said data”.
It’s a really sensitive Catch-22...
The Feds probably want to “fingerprint” the device - GPS logs, app usage, etc. Got to be able to gain access to it to do that of course.
If the device also has the “wipe if 10 incorrect passcode attempts” option enabled that does away with the brute force method (and who knows if that is enabled or not).
Slippery slope. My vote would be for whatever rule or method that keeps soldiers upright and not horizontal - or in pieces.
Otherwise, you’re going to see a bill proposed that forces the allowance of any three-letter agency backdoor into any mobile phone sold in the US. It will take approximately one random politician and one FBI Director to stand up and say “the cure for cancer [or the answers to this case] could be without any doubt on this phone but we have no access because of the manufacturer. We will risk hundreds of agents or soldiers lives by not having said data”.
It’s a really sensitive Catch-22...
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This is all about setting precedence....
Today’s Patriot is next Democrap POTUS’s Terrorist.
Today’s Patriot is next Democrap POTUS’s Terrorist.
Why doesn't the DOJ bring the phones to Apple and Apple removes the encryption from the phones and hands the phones back to the DOJ giving them full access to those phones. The Apple systems aren't compromised and no one would even know about it.
Removing encryption from the phone would be fantastic.
For any future data. Not so fantastic for data already encrypted.
The government ought to make a line in the sand for defeating encryption.
Terrorist, check.
Pedophile, check.
Insider Trading, check.
Excessive ammo purchases, check.
Trust me, they will play by the rules and stay on their side of the line.
For any future data. Not so fantastic for data already encrypted.
The government ought to make a line in the sand for defeating encryption.
Terrorist, check.
Pedophile, check.
Insider Trading, check.
Excessive ammo purchases, check.
Trust me, they will play by the rules and stay on their side of the line.
If the DOJ really wanted into the phone they would be in it, simple as that. Making people feel content about their "secrets" is the winning move in the long haul.
Lol. More current than I. I lived there from 81-85.
Lotta memories fishing down by Lady Lex and camping with Scouts out at Browning Field (which is now condos and golf courses). Fun times....
I can see your point we accept a certain risk with every product sold so the phone shouldn't be any different I guess.
You were there what I was going in an out working on some of their junk. Were you one of the guys hanging from the birds while cruising above P-cola beach?
San Bernadino shooter's phone, that was supposedly cracked, was what, iPhone 5C ?
Wonder if anything significant in iPhone changed since then.
Will it be easier now?
Wonder if anything significant in iPhone changed since then.
Will it be easier now?
Software mainly, not hardware. But yes, very much so with iOS 11.4. Aimed directly at LE/Government.
iOS 11.4 to Disable USB Port After 7 Days: What It Means for Mobile Forensics
UPDATE June 2, 2018: USB Restricted Mode did not make it into iOS 11.4. However, in iOS 11.4.1 Beta USB Restricted Mode Has Arrived A new iOS update is about to roll out in the next few weeks or even days. Reading Apple documentation and researching developer betas, we discovered a major new secu
blog.elcomsoft.com
An Apple employee came forward and did the work on the San Bernardino shooter's phone. It can be done.
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