Shoulder Bump Question

Xander3Zero

Xander3Zero

Just a normal dude.
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 10, 2017
499
285
Rhode Island
#1
I am hoping that one of the reloading gurus can provide some insight to a small issue I'm having when shoulder bumping 223 Rem. For background information, I am using a Lee Classis Cast single stage press, a Forster FLS die, and Redding Competition Shellholders.

Using my calipers and bump gauge, I measured the base-to-shoulder length of my fired cases (de-primed) at 1.462". I then put the Redding .010" shellholder into the press ram, and installed the FLS die in until it made contact with the shellholder, then an additional 1/8 turn. When I sized the case, the resulting base-to-shoulder that I measured with the bump gauge was 1.455".

I had thought that the idea behind the competition shellholders was so that I could get my desired bump (.001-.002") while maintaining shellholder contact with the FLS die to eliminate any press/linkage play. Obviously, I will be unable to do that, as even with the thickest shellholder in the set my bump is still roughly .007". Am I correct in thinking that I will just have to screw the die out enough where it doesn't contact the shellholder; rendering the competition shellholders useless? Or is there something that I may be overlooking? I know that it is pretty common to shoulder bump with the shellholder not touching the die, and many people do it successfully, but I was hoping to be able to make use of the competition shellholder set. Have any others encountered this problem, or is everyone successfully getting a .001-.002" bump while maintaining contact between the shellholder and die?

Thanks for your time!
 
#3
Supersubes said:
Based upon what you’re seeing, your sizer was reamed too short, and is out of spec. Contact Forster or the vendor you bought it from and exchange it.
Click to expand...

Is that really that likely? I know Forster is highly touted and makes good products. Also this would be annoying AF considering I just got the die back from Forster after having the neck honed... lol
 
#4
Xander3Zero said:
Is that really that likely? I know Forster is highly touted and makes good products. Also this would be annoying AF considering I just got the die back from Forster after having the neck honed... lol
Click to expand...

Dies, just like rifle chambers, vary quite a bit, and dies aren’t immune to manufacturing errors. If you want to cover your bases, use a depth mic to compare your comp shellholders to a standard shellholder, to make sure they are what they’re supposed to be.
 
#5
Why not just back your die out some, I guess I'm not in the know or on board with the die base and the shellholder needing to contact each other. The theory behind a Forster coax press dictates the opposite.
 
#6
Supersubes said:
Dies, just like rifle chambers, vary quite a bit, and dies aren’t immune to manufacturing errors. If you want to cover your bases, use a depth mic to compare your comp shellholders to a standard shellholder, to make sure they are what they’re supposed to be.
Click to expand...

Your right, and if I have time after work I will try to inspect the shellholder's and see how they measure up.

Milo 2.5 said:
Why not just back your die out some, I guess I'm not in the know or on board with the die base and the shellholder needing to contact each other. The theory behind a Forster coax press dictates the opposite.
Click to expand...

I completely understand what you are saying, and previously before I had the Redding competition shellholders that is exactly what I would do. But the whole idea of the comp. SH's is that when the SH makes contact with the die, it doesn't matter how much force you use to size the case. Once your SH makes contact with the die, your case is sized the exact same every time, regardless of sizing effort or press/linkage play.

I guess my reasoning for posting and looking for more information is because I want to pick the brains of others to see if they have had a similar situation (tried redding comp. SH's and found out that their die still needed to be backed out, i.e. not making contact with the SH). If this is the case, then I will simply return the comp. SH's because they will be utterly useless and no effect on the sizing process if I can't get my desired bump while making contact with them.
 
#7
Xander3Zero said:
Your right, and if I have time after work I will try to inspect the shellholder's and see how they measure up.



I completely understand what you are saying, and previously before I had the Redding competition shellholders that is exactly what I would do. But the whole idea of the comp. SH's is that when the SH makes contact with the die, it doesn't matter how much force you use to size the case. Once your SH makes contact with the die, your case is sized the exact same every time, regardless of sizing effort or press/linkage play.

I guess my reasoning for posting and looking for more information is because I want to pick the brains of others to see if they have had a similar situation (tried redding comp. SH's and found out that their die still needed to be backed out, i.e. not making contact with the SH). If this is the case, then I will simply return the comp. SH's because they will be utterly useless and no effect on the sizing process if I can't get my desired bump while making contact with them.
Click to expand...

I've never owned the comp shellholder system, in theory good product. But as with all things, the applications don't work in every situation. You can do what you need to concerning the set, but I'd find a concentricity gauge and determine if it is necessary to maintain contact. Most of us started with RCBS dies, maybe graduated to Redding or similar, die base to shellholder contact flew out the window.
 
#8
Milo 2.5 said:
I've never owned the comp shellholder system, in theory good product. But as with all things, the applications don't work in every situation. You can do what you need to concerning the set, but I'd find a concentricity gauge and determine if it is necessary to maintain contact. Most of us started with RCBS dies, maybe graduated to Redding or similar, die base to shellholder contact flew out the window.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. And you are right, I do need to pick up a concentricity gauge to really evaluate whether these things are having an effect on the quality of my reloads. I am relatively new to reloading (About 1 year) and now that I am exploring new methods, new products, etc. I really need a gauge to quantify my efforts to improve the quality of my ammo.
 
#9
You’re prolly measuring wrong. The +.010” shell holder with the Forster die won’t touch the shoulder if your chamber is within spec. On my Tikka 223 I have to use a standard shell holder to get .002” shoulder bump. The same deal with my 308.

Have u tried chambering the cases sized using the various shell holders?

 
#10
Xander3Zero said:
Thanks for your input. And you are right, I do need to pick up a concentricity gauge to really evaluate whether these things are having an effect on the quality of my reloads. I am relatively new to reloading (About 1 year) and now that I am exploring new methods, new products, etc. I really need a gauge to quantify my efforts to improve the quality of my ammo.
Click to expand...

If you can find someone that has one, you'll find over time it's kind of a waste to own one, I panicked 4 yrs ago like you and now it sits. It really helps to narrow your sources of info on products, reloading in general. It can be a complicated hobby, but in truth it's simple.
 
#11
918v said:
You’re prolly measuring wrong. The +.010” shell holder with the Forster die won’t touch the shoulder if your chamber is within spec. On my Tikka 223 I have to use a standard shell holder to get .002” shoulder bump. The same deal with my 308.

Have u tried chambering the cases sized using the various shell holders?
Click to expand...

Not sure how I could be measuring wrong. I'm fairly competent with calipers and the bump gauges are pretty simple to use. As a means of justifying why I think my measurements are accurate I'll bring up the dimensions I mentioned in my OP. My 1x fired brass measures 1.462" from the base of the case the datum on the shoulder. The SAAMI minimum spec for a 223 chamber headspace is 1.4636". Because this brass is only 1x fired, it has probably not fully expanded to be tight within my chamber, which is probably to the min SAAMI spec. On a side note, I am not planning to bump the shoulders of my brass until probably 2 or 3 firings when it starts to get tight within the chamber, which I expect will be another thousandth or so of growth, or ~1.463" from base to shoulder datum. But my point here is that my measurements seem logical to me.
 
#13
Milo 2.5 said:
I've never owned the comp shellholder system, in theory good product. But as with all things, the applications don't work in every situation. You can do what you need to concerning the set, but I'd find a concentricity gauge and determine if it is necessary to maintain contact. Most of us started with RCBS dies, maybe graduated to Redding or similar, die base to shellholder contact flew out the window.
Click to expand...


Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but the purpose of the comp shell holders is to produce very consistent headspace despite press deflection, and to simplify die sizing adjustments. The only problem I’ve experienced with them is that sometimes, moving to the next shorter shellholder is a bigger step than I want.

I own dozens of die sets, many in the same cartridge across manufacturers. It’s pretty surprising how far apart they are sometimes. My whidden sizers for example are so short, they’re useless with the comp shell holders(like the OP). Even with the +.010”, a case that came out of a spec chamber will have the shoulder pushed back ~.020”. Fortunately due to their internal finish and dimesions, they FL size effortlessly and consistently while hovering over the shell holder. That’s not the case with all die manufacturers and all cartridges. The comp shell holders can be a bit of an equalizer there.



 
#14
Supersubes said:
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but the purpose of the comp shell holders is to produce very consistent headspace despite press deflection, and to simplify die sizing adjustments. The only problem I’ve experienced with them is that sometimes, moving to the next shorter shellholder is a bigger step than I want.

I own dozens of die sets, many in the same cartridge across manufacturers. It’s pretty surprising how far apart they are sometimes. My whidden sizers for example are so short, they’re useless with the comp shell holders(like the OP). Even with the +.010”, a case that came out of a spec chamber will have the shoulder pushed back ~.020”. Fortunately due to their internal finish and dimesions, they FL size effortlessly and consistently while hovering over the shell holder. That’s not the case with all die manufacturers and all cartridges. The comp shell holders can be a bit of an equalizer there.
Click to expand...

Didn't we about say the same thing? You have knowledge on them, I said I did not.
 
#16
Having owned a bunch of Forster dies I am reluctant to believe they would fuck up a die this badly.

If his die bumps the shoulder .007” from min with the plus 10 shell holder it means it will bump .017” with a standard shell holder. I doubt it, but if this is the case then the die needs to go back to Forster.
 
#18
Supersubes said:
You recommended he get a concentricity gauge to verify whether contact is necessary. I don’t understand this.
Click to expand...

I think his point was that a concentricity gauge could be used to verify that I can produce low-runout ammo without worrying about the shellholder contacting the die.


918v said:
Having owned a bunch of Forster dies I am reluctant to believe they would fuck up a die this badly.

If his die bumps the shoulder .007” from min with the plus 10 shell holder it means it will bump .017” with a standard shell holder. I doubt it, but if this is the case then the die needs to go back to Forster.
Click to expand...

918v said:
Maybe he is misreading the shell holders. They all say 10 in bold because they are all number 10 shell holders.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input, I am going to give my shellholders a closer look tonight.
 
#19
Supersubes said:
You recommended he get a concentricity gauge to verify whether contact is necessary. I don’t understand this.
Click to expand...

I think Milo was just saying that if he is concerned over it he could invest in a gauge and prove it to himself. I wouldnt bother myself as Milo clarified later, he was just saying that if its that concerning there is a way to quell his fears. Edit: Im too slow

I have a question on the shell holders: Is the .010 deeper or shallower than the standard shell holder/Does the .010" holder increase or decrease the amount of sizing over a .002"? Im my reading it looks like it will leave the case .010 longer than a standard shell holder so that moving to a .002 holder would make it even shorter still. Edit: This has been clarified as well, jeez Im slow

I have a coax press so I dont have shell holders. I always screw it into the press all the way until it touches the jaws and then out a half a turn and see what that gives me on a piece of brass and then adjust accordingly. I honestly couldn't tell you how high above deck height.
I would back it out until you get the desired bump. Then maybe do the same thing with a standard shell holder. Compare the two (comp holder vs standard) and see if you can live with it, aka it chambers and extracts fine and then figure out where to go from there once you have some more empirical measurements to base your decision on.
 
#20
spife7980 said:
I think Milo was just saying that if he is concerned over it he could invest in a gauge and prove it to himself. I wouldnt bother myself as Milo clarified later, he was just saying that if its that concerning there are way to quell his fears. Edit: Im too slow

I have a question on the shell holders: Is the .010 deeper or shallower than the standard shell holder/Does the .010" holder increase or decrease the amount of sizing over a .002"? Im my reading it looks like it will leave the case .010 longer than a standard shell holder so that moving to a .002 holder would make it even shorter still.

I have a coax press so I dont have shell holders. I always screw it into the press all the way until it touches the jaws and then out a half a turn and see what that gives me on a piece of brass and then adjust accordingly. I honestly couldn't tell you how high above deck height.
I would back it out until you get the desired bump. Then maybe do the same thing with a standard shell holder. Compare the two (comp holder vs standard) and see if you can live with it, aka it chambers and extracts fine and then figure out where to go from there once you have some more empirical measurements to base your decision on.
Click to expand...


The comp shell holders arent addressing concentricity issues, and concentricity wasn’t the OP’s issue. No big deal.


The the .010 is +.010, so shallower. You’re observation is correct. Most dies would produce a case that is a few thou short of “go” if run down onto a standard shell holder. As discussed though, sometimes they’re way outside of that.

You can convert your coax to use standard shell holder also, if you were interested. That’s how I run mine.
 
#24
Ummm....OK, here goes. Throw that comp shell holder in a cubboard somewhere and use a normal one. Then, set your die up as one would normally. Screw the die down 'til it touches the shellholder, measure, and then adjust the die up or down to get your desired shoulder bump.
 
#25
Just confirmed that I was using the correct +.010" shellholder and it has a depth of .135".

I guess that I will be unable to correctly set headspace using the competition shellholders, which is disappointing.

It is no big deal really I will just go back to setting up the die off of the shellholder.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


 
Last edited:
#26
Supersubes said:
The comp shell holders arent addressing concentricity issues, and concentricity wasn’t the OP’s issue. No big deal.
Click to expand...

"I had thought that the idea behind the competition shellholders was so that I could get my desired bump (.001-.002") while maintaining shellholder contact with the FLS die to eliminate any press/linkage play."
From the OP ^^^^
The op needing contact I assumed was to assure concentricity here, maybe I'm lost. I don't even have a press that uses shellholders, I'll bow out.​
 
#27
This is old but i dont think it was solved. I have found that the shoulder bump dies from Forester cannot be adjusted deep enough to bump the dies. They are simply to long and designed for Forsters own press.
My setup is RCBS summit with the hornady quick release setup.
The only way i have been able to get the bump die to work has been to get the shellholder in the lathe and have more than 1mm removed from the shell holder. As i understand you are trying to get more bump, so the die needs to go further down over the casing. I found that the RCBS shellholder set did the opposite.
 
#28
Bronden said:
This is old but i dont think it was solved. I have found that the shoulder bump dies from Forester cannot be adjusted deep enough to bump the dies. They are simply to long and designed for Forsters own press.
My setup is RCBS summit with the hornady quick release setup.
The only way i have been able to get the bump die to work has been to get the shellholder in the lathe and have more than 1mm removed from the shell holder. As i understand you are trying to get more bump, so the die needs to go further down over the casing. I found that the RCBS shellholder set did the opposite.
Click to expand...

I think you're misunderstanding. OP is saying that with the +0.010" shell holder he is getting 0.007" of shoulder bump back. His target is to get 0.002" of shoulder bump. The shellholder set he is referencing only goes down (+0.008", +0.006" etc) so he will get more shoulder setback by using the other shell holders. I'm not sure what the issue was, or if it ended up getting resolved as I've never seen this. In fact, the +0.010" shell holder actually moves the shoulder of my brass forward a bit instead of back, I used the +0.004" in order to get 0.002" of setback.
 
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