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Range Report Show me your AR15 5 x 5 tests

garandman

garandman

Bad Advice for Free
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Minuteman
Nov 17, 2009
2,688
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Huntington WV
#1
I'd be intersted in seeing the realistic repeatability of the semi auto AR in 5 separate 5 shot groups.

What load and gun specs, and what's your min and max groups.

Trying to figger out what's realistic for my gun:
1:8 WOA bbl

7083636
 
#3
I've tried some 50 + differnt loads. For instance.... 69 SMK with 24.0 Varget at 2.270 COA will shoot good....SOMETIMES. Near half MoA.

It will also shoot crappy 1.5 MoA.

I can repeat groups sub half MoA all day with my bolt guns. But not THIS gun.
 
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#6
garandman said:
Great.

Got a 5 x 5 for it? :)
Click to expand...


Driving myself nuts with a .308 load right now....

I recently detuned my AR-15.

Went from a USO 1-8X to a ACOG TA33.

Ill try to get it out in the next few weeks.

Probably use A-22 targets so Ill have a big enough black to see at 3X.

100 yards Im assuming?
 
#10
Black Hills 5.56 77gr SMK @ 100 yards

7084052


Shot using this
7084053


18" Rainier Arms barrel, RL gas system
BCM upper receiver, KMR-13, gas block, gas tube, intermediate buffer tube and BCG
Aero Precision lower Geissele SSA-E
Vltor A5H2 buffer and rifle length buffer spring
Vltor Emod stock w/ tactical self adhesive foam cheek pad
NF 4-16 ATACR in NF 1.44" Unimount

The grip, selector lever, and muzzle device have been switched out since this photo was taken.
 
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#11
Trigger Monkey said:
Black Hills 5.56 77gr SMK @ 100 yards


Shot using this


18" Rainier Arms barrel, RL gas system
BCM upper receiver, KMR-13, gas block, gas tube, intermediate buffer tube and BCG
Aero Precision lower Geissele SSA-E
Vltor A5H2 buffer and rifle length buffer spring
Vltor Emod stock w/ tactical self adhesive foam cheek pad
NF 4-16 ATACR in NF 1.44" Unimount

The grip, selector lever, and muzzle device have been switched out since this photo was taken.
Click to expand...

Gonna be testing some 77 SMK's next... 22.6 - 23.2 XBR
 
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#12
For some added context the Black Hills averages 2761 out of my SPR above. Last week I shot a box of Sig Sauer Elite 77gr match to compare and I only have 15 rounds on paper but they are similar to the BH. Sig is super slow though, 2583 fps out my 18" barrel. Average accuracy out of 40 rounds is .97" so I'd say it's a solid 1 MOA rifle, could it do better with handloads, no doubt.

The ".300 WM Guy" note was a called shot as the guy the next bench over shot his braked .300WM just as I was shooting. The next four fell right in line.

7084317
 
#13
garandman said:
I've tried some 50 + differnt loads. For instance.... 69 SMK with 24.0 Varget at 2.270 COA will shoot good....SOMETIMES. Near half MoA.

It will also shoot crappy 1.5 MoA.

I can repeat groups sub half MoA all day with my bolt guns. But not THIS gun.
Click to expand...
I would start with mounting your scope on the receiver. Your front ring is on the hand guard and hand guards have flex....just my .02.
 
#14
Funny.... all teh (self proclaimed) awesome shooters in this forum, and none of them can produce a 5x5 to show hw awesome they are.

Lends to my theory....MOST "awesome" groups ya see on the internet are one time only affairs ...and cannotbe reproduced by the shooters.

Well.... i got 3 good loads just today, I'm gonna work up and then run my 5x5 test. Stay tuned.
 
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#15
Scopes said:
I would start with mounting your scope on the receiver. Your front ring is on the hand guard and hand guards have flex....just my .02.
Click to expand...


If you'll look closely, you'll see thePRI rail *is* bolted to the upper received *only* Its floats over the handguard.

The front ring is bolted to the rail. This is standard kit for the SPR / DMR guns.

I've built two of them, and they were both g-t-g this way.

I hear ya, and would usually agree, but range results don't lie. :)
 
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#18
garandman said:
Funny.... all teh (self proclaimed) awesome shooters in this forum, and none of them can produce a 5x5 to show hw awesome they are.

Lends to my theory....MOST "awesome" groups ya see on the internet are one time only affairs ...and cannotbe reproduced by the shooters.

Well.... i got 3 good loads just today, I'm gonna work up and then run my 5x5 test. Stay tuned.
Click to expand...
I'll play. I'm going out pew pew-ing tomorrow anyway. 5x5 here we come! It ain't gonna be pretty! My AR is a 2 MOA gun on purpose.

Aero Precision M4E1 upper/lower. 16" Faxon 5.56 NATO 1:8 twist, Pencil profile, MID-LENGTH gasser. Geissele Mk4 13" handguard, Leupold Mark AR Mod 1 1.5-4x optic.

Ammo gonna be my cannon fodder:

62g Hornady BTHP over 26.5-ish grains of BL-C(2) in Speer 223 nickel plated brass. All put together with my wicked awesome Lee Precision reloading equipment. Highly scientific shit going on over here.
Screenshot_20190530-050952.png
 
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#21
Rifle: 1:8 twist Faxon pencil profile, mid length gasser Surefire AR556 brake. Aero Upper/Lower, Velocity 3# trigger, stupid California "featureless" grip fin thingy.
IMG_20190531_1117292.jpg

Ammo: 62g BTHP 26.5g BL-C(2).
IMG_20190531_1124410.jpg

Results ???? : the first group on upper left was so fucked LOL
IMG_20190531_1158536.jpg


Told you it wasn't gonna be pretty. I never even did a "Load development" or that load. LOL I just looked in 3 different books I have and went 10% below the max charge. Good enough for plinking. No sling, no rear bag, no bipod. Just front resting on the rolled up shooting mat and me using my off hand as rear stock support. Fired from bench, sitting.

Top left: 3.1"
Top Center: 2.2"
Top Right: 1.85"
Bottom Left: 1.53"
Bottom Right: 1.49"

Like I said: 2 MOA gun/ammo :) could probably shrink the groups a smidgen if I used a bipod, rear bag, etc, but that gun is not a precision gun, so I don't ...and probably never will.
 
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#22
clcustom1911 said:
Rifle: 1:8 twist Faxon pencil profile, mid length gasser Surefire AR556 brake. Aero Upper/Lower, Velocity 3# trigger, stupid California "featureless" grip fin thingy.

Told you it wasn't gonna be pretty. I never even did a "Load development" or that load. LOL I just looked in 3 different books I have and went 10% below the max charge. Good enough for plinking.
Click to expand...


Thanx ! Shooting 25 rounds aimed rounds in a row well ain't easy. :)

The most painful part is that grip - fin thingy. lol

Put my gun and ammo in the car just now, hope to get out to the range tomorrow. Try my hand at 25 in a row.
 
#23
garandman said:
Thanx ! Shooting 25 rounds aimed rounds in a row well ain't easy. :)

The most painful part is that grip - fin thingy. lol

Put my gun and ammo in the car just now, hope to get out to the range tomorrow. Try my hand at 25 in a row.
Click to expand...

It's not that hard, I just never do it because it's not a proper representation of what I do/have done for a living or for self defense. For precision gun, I'd rather blow $35-40 in ammo at targets beyond 100 yards to get better practice at wind calls and all that jazz.
 
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#24
clcustom1911 said:
It's not that hard, I just never do it because it's not a proper representation of what I do/have done for a living or for self defense. For precision gun, I'd rather blow $35-40 in ammo at targets beyond 100 yards to get better practice at wind calls and all that jazz.
Click to expand...



uuuuhhhh..... the whole POINT of a 5x5 is to find a load that HAS the accuracy that can be relied on to "go long" and know your misses ARE your elevation / wind calls and NOT a load that won't shoot.

The point f 5x5's is NOT the 5x5 itself. Shooting well at 100 y is pointless, in itself.

That's my take / mindset, anyway.
 
#25
garandman said:
uuuuhhhh..... the whole POINT of a 5x5 is to find a load that HAS the accuracy that can be relied on to "go long" and know your misses ARE your elevation / wind calls and NOT a load that won't shoot.

The point f 5x5's is NOT the 5x5 itself. Shooting well at 100 y is pointless, in itself.

That's my take / mindset, anyway.
Click to expand...


5x5 is much a test of shooter as ammo.

Trending weakness in either will show with that data set.

Honesty of shooter and analyzing group should indicate which.

Could also include rifle in that examined variable. 5x5 would show heat/stringing issues assuming you dont wait for 100% cool down between shots.

You may in fact have a horrible 5x5 with great ammo.

I meant to shoot one today but took an OT instead.

Going to take couple hours vac tomorrow to get it done.

Looked at my 8208XBR 77 load. Appears I loaded 22.9 of powder, Nos 77, WSRP, WCC 1X, 2.26 COAL
 
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#26
I went yesterday to get my SPR zeroed to this lot of Black Hills OTM and try out some new targets I'm making and happened to do a 5X5. I'm not going to make excuses, I was sucking for some reason but when I buckled down and focused I was able to print the tighter .89" group, so it's definitely not the gun or the ammo.

7088368


With the average of this 5X5, along with the other one, and the 15 rounds of Sig 77gr Match, that gives the rifle an average accuracy of 1.00" over 65 rounds. A lot of that is probably me, but it's nice to know that even if I'm sucking the gun can still shoot pretty decently.
 
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#27
Trigger Monkey said:
I went yesterday to get my SPR zeroed to this lot of Black Hills OTM and try out some new targets I'm making and happened to do a 5X5. I'm not going to make excuses, I was sucking for some reason but when I buckled down and focused I was able to print the tighter .89" group, so it's definitely not the gun or the ammo.

View attachment 7088368

With the average of this 5X5, along with the other one, and the 15 rounds of Sig 77gr Match, that gives the rifle an average accuracy of 1.066" over 65 rounds. A lot of that is probably me, but it's nice to know that even if I'm sucking the gun can still shoot pretty decently.
Click to expand...

Just over an inch for - in whatever configuration - I consider a carbine is plenty good.

Its a service rifle.

The Garand was good for service at 4 MOA.

The M14 shot better but I think 3-4 MOA with M80 was the standard.

Supposedly acceptance for an M16 is 4.5 inches and M4 at 5 inches.

Both generally shoot a lot better so much so that the AR dominates its early service rifle types.

So one inch should be considered very good.

Do other ARs do better?

Yeah probably but at what cost?

Looking forward to trying out my 16 inch LMT CQB on this tomorrow.
 
#28
This is #8 on the barfcom challenge. It’s .55moa average. The numbers written on the target are before subtracting the bullet. I actually had a lot of fun and learned a lot about shooting a gas gun while trying to get in the top ten on that challenge.

Rifle is home built mega MKM with a LaRue barrel. Well it was, it’s now a Valkyrie that I hope to make shoot this well. Still developing a load. The factory 88s shoot lights out and I can’t seem to duplicate that with my loads and it’s pissing me off lol.
F7965E14-2ECA-4595-97DF-BA6517134B3C.jpeg
 
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#30
Ended up working a double and some extra yesterday so after getting home at 0300 I decided I would take a vacation day today...

At the range approx 0930, beautiful sunny day, dry, 0 Okta, breezy.

Rifle is an LMT CQB. Its pre shoot configuration....

P6028623.JPG


Barrel is standard CQB chrome lined 1/7. Optic is an ACOG TA-33. Looking at the pic Im thinking I need other than the standard ACOG mount, seems kind of high. Trigger is the LMT two stage that was originally in my MWS.

After shooting I moved the light to the right side rail and the stubby grip went further forward. Im trying to move on to shooting this style rifle with the support hand up toward the end of the rail. Barrel has about 3,000 rounds, desire is to one day have the extension put on a better quality barrel.

As set up for shooting the 5x5....

P6028624.JPG


Ammo spec....

P6028628.JPG


Targets 1-2.

P6028625.JPG


Made a windage adjustment right after these two groups.

Targets 3 and 4...

P6028626.JPG


Target 5

P6028627.JPG


Paster is one inch for reference.

Targets 3 and 5 would be my ideal if I could do it consistently. I wouldnt ask anymore than that from what I consider a "defensive" rifle.

The ACOG center dot pretty much covered the entire black silhouette at 100 yards but holding center of paper worked well enough.

Recently was issued a work carbine with a Aimpoint PRO. Really felt the difference between the two different types of scope today. The 3X mag of the ACOG is great but the tiny low setting red dot on the Aimpoint is pretty sweet too.

Id call this a mid range "defensive" rifle set up as opposed to the RDS close quarter set up. I need to try the ACOG on some close drill stuff and see how quick the horseshoe and green center dot draw my eye. Planning on taking mid range carbine at Sig Sauer next year and my LMT will likely be the rifle I use.
 
#31
Finally got my .260 all functioning and figured out...federal ammo is not manufactured to run in a semi-auto if anyone is wondering.
92F84A80-52E6-4190-8836-2C275A36E702.jpeg

F04B9BDB-5CAA-4CAD-A73A-F9A8B227B456.jpeg


I haven’t had time to do a 5x5 but when the Hornady started running I did a 3x5 at 100m. .260 is ‘spensive but plan on trying a 5x5 soon.
3622C8FD-EEC0-4333-BC1A-88AA6C92B042.jpeg


Best picture I’ve got on the ipotato, she wears a Bushnell HDMR II in an LT-845.
AEA57298-F3AB-4AAD-9BB3-D5F0D6EF9CCD.jpeg
 
#32
Just for fun, and because you posted a series of seemingly tight 3-shot groups....

This is probably more indicative of the true potential of the rifle-- which is not bad, probably a scoshe under 1 MOA.

7088805


And I'll ramble a bit. These type of challenges really show something that is interesting to me. I've started going to 10-20 shot strings for true accuracy and velocity testing. It's easy to fall into the trap of wanting tight groups, and this even bleeds over to ES/SD numbers. Shoot 3-5 rounds and claim "sub 3/8 MOA with 4 fps SD"... Once you shoot 20 rounds you find it's more like 0.5-0.8 MOA with 8-12 FPS SD. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but the further I've dug into it, that's been more the reality of what I find.

And ego drives us to want to ignore those results and push past the limitations of the equipment in determining hit probability, etc.. etc.. Anymore I'm searching for the worst group my rifle+ammo will produce to know what my real limitations are. Anyway, not picking on you sea2summit, just thought it was interesting. You start seeing what the real cone of fire is when you produce circular (or at least oval) groups, by the way.
 
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#33
Led, I don’t take it personal everyone has opinions just like...belly buttons. Like I said that was only a zero target, and more than anything a test of how the ammo worked in the gas rifle.

So here’s my opinion, which is probably worth about as much as my belly button. MV SD I totally agree you need probably 20-30 rounds, and you need to repeat the test in as many temperature bands as possible. 10 shot groups are cool but you’re probably getting to a length of time where you’re inducing shooter fatigue and heat/mirage issues. 5x5 are kind of a nice middle ground where you can’t “cheat” like 3x5 but can usually get them done before you have more shooter issues than gun issues. I would be more interested in 1x10 cold bore shots if we’re really looking for accuracy (cold bore MV SD could also be very different from warm/hot guns shooting 10 shot strings).

It can be argued all day both ways I’m sure and both sides could say the other is jacked up in their processes. I’m just here for fun so if I’m having fun and my data gets me the affects on targets that I want I’m good with that;)
 
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#34
Precision Underground said:
This is #8 on the barfcom challenge. It’s .55moa average. The numbers written on the target are before subtracting the bullet. I actually had a lot of fun and learned a lot about shooting a gas gun while trying to get in the top ten on that challenge.

Rifle is home built mega MKM with a LaRue barrel. Well it was, it’s now a Valkyrie that I hope to make shoot this well. Still developing a load. The factory 88s shoot lights out and I can’t seem to duplicate that with my loads and it’s pissing me off lol.
View attachment 7088394
Click to expand...
PSA on semis, you find issues you have never heard of lol.
After making this post I started scratching my head again and trying to figure out why I can’t get the Valkyrie consistent with 88 reloads but the factory 88s shoot great. The gun will print 3-4 good/decent rounds and throw 1-2 as far as 4”. So after 4 powders I figure something else has to be going on.

At the suggestion of @bigjake83 i loaded a few dummy rounds to check and see if the bullet was slipping in the case when chambered. I decided to fiddle with feeding a bit because it has had a rare/seldom jam where the round will nose dive into the front lip of the chamber and get stuck, breaking off the ELD tip.

The feed ramps were def binding the bullet and scarring it a bit so I kept messing around with it, chambering and then pulling the round out to see if it was scarred or the tip was broken. It didn’t take long to pull this out of the chamber, ELD tip gone. Well there’s your problem ??‍♂️ My guess is every 3-4 rounds was having this happen.
5EF92F6D-93E7-4A3E-95E6-50427C0630DC.jpeg

The sharp inside corners of the ramps were cutting into the jacket and keeping it from rising into the chamber. That meant nose diving and breaking the tip off. I guess most of them were chambering after that but a few did get jammed nose in. 2 mins with a fine file and we should be good now. While annoyed that I went through 4 powders trying to duplicate the accuracy of the factory loads I’m pretty excited to see what it will do now. My guess is the lighter loads of the factory ammo with a closed off gas block slowed the carrier down enough to give the round time to rise up on the ramp rather than jamming into it. I had tried some lighter reloads but the wildness of the thrown shots skewed the hell out of planning and decision making.

Moral of the story as it relates to the thread... Gas guns can be plenty accurate, there are just a ton more moving parts to line up when something is not right.
 
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#39
Thx everyone !

I think I am expecting too much from a semi auto in terms of accuracy. Given my current skill level and the amount of time I have to practice and develop loads, I should probably be happy anywhere from 0.75 to an inch at 100....



:)
 
#40
garandman said:
Thx everyone !

I think I am expecting too much from a semi auto in terms of accuracy. Given my current skill level and the amount of time I have to practice and develop loads, I should probably be happy anywhere from 0.75 to an inch at 100....



:)
Click to expand...


Never be happy.

Strive to be better.

Be realistic in the estimation of your abilities when it matters.
 
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#43
Dtech 20P upper. Sub MOA with N133 and 8028. N133 is more accurate but 8028 is faster at max loads. 39gr Sierra BK bullet.
15851C63-ACF3-4545-8C7F-61B70B05355B.jpeg
 
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#46
Stock LaRue PredatOBR 22”, 260, TranQuilo, 130 AR hybrid & 2825 fps per my chronograph.
C9B84BC2-9BDD-4A31-AAA5-6472028E8619.jpeg
C49F8090-BC75-4EDD-B659-887B3658018A.jpeg


I’ll break out the GAP-10 (308, 6.5 Creed and 6 Creed) first chance I get, do a 5x5 with each.

Large frame ARs are just flat out hard for me to shoot well, really have to focus on proper technique and follow through.

I am McCourt Munitions, ammo has been optimized for a specific platform. However, the 260 w/130 AR Hybrid has shot same accuracy level in many different rifles with many different shooters.
 
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