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Member Link Up SHWW Group

#5,952
Re: SHWW Group

Just put together a video of all the shots I took of our crew and a few from some others, be sure to view them in full screen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEPc_9Sheog

Marty and Mike C just wanted to say thanks for helping me feel welcome at my first match, Your both fantastic people and a blast to be around. Hopefully next time I can finish the match without equipment issues lol.

Thanks again Scott for putting on a fantastic match and Adam for working behind the scenes I know you guys got a heck of a workout not only getting all the targets set but taken down too.

Eric
 
#5,953
Re: SHWW Group

once again TSI pulls it off, this was by far the best COF yet! i had a blast and it was awesome seeing some old faces and a joy meeting some new ones....as always thanks to all the sponsors who were generous enough to donate prizes

i cant wait for 2012! i have a feeling it will be a great year for matches!


see every body at the Findlay cup 2012, and FSC 2012!
 
#5,957
Re: SHWW Group

It was great to be able to put faces to some of the screen names here. I had great fun pulling RO duty, and getting a chance to observe. Wonderful group of folks to spend a day of shooting with. Scott puts on a good match. Great pics, everyone. Thanks for sharing.
 
#5,958
Re: SHWW Group

I have to say mkollman74 runs a a stage.
There was no time wasted between shooters and it was the same for all. I also think the tempo that was set increased the stress level. Thanks.

I thought the match was exceptional and thank to all that made it happen!
 
#5,959
Re: SHWW Group

what are your guys thoughts on having fsc 2012 308 only? It will for sure be short action only with no magnums, just tossing around the idea on the 308 only. Just be honest how many of you would this be a deal breaker?
 
#5,960
Re: SHWW Group

Scott, thank you again for all the hard work putting this thing together!! The COF was outstanding!! Also, thank you to all the sponsors who donated to this. All the R.O.'s who donated thier time, thank you. Can't wait for the next one.

Matt
 
#5,961
Re: SHWW Group

308 only would be a great idea IMO. One of the SH comps around 06 or 07 was 308 (175 smk supplied by corbon) and 9mm Glocks only. The idea was to make it less of a gear race and more about whos the best trigger puller.

Without a generous sponsor (like Corbon) I would suggest that reloads be an option but set up a chrono and verify reloads fall within reason of factory ammo...just my 2 cents.

Maybe on day I can actually make it to one of these comps.
 
#5,962
Re: SHWW Group

308 only huh? I thought that having these matches was to help promote the sport of long range shooting. 1st there are no "magnums", then no semi-auto's, now 308 only? What about those who only have a 6.5 X 47 Lap?, or 243? Unlike some, there are others who can't afford to build a new $3000.00 rifle every few years to comply with ever changing caliber discrimination. Like me. I now have about $8000.00+ worth of rifles that are no longer welcome at most matches any more, & I don't have the endless income to build another one. I think I'm done.
 
#5,964
Re: SHWW Group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TeamSendIt!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what are your guys thoughts on having fsc 2012 308 only? It will for sure be short action only with no magnums, just tossing around the idea on the 308 only. Just be honest how many of you would this be a deal breaker? </div></div>
I'd shoot it with my 6.5x47L, so not a deal breaker for me.
 
#5,965
Re: SHWW Group

spokane area shooters. The match calendar is up for F Class and fun shoots for 2012.


Spokane Rifle Club 2012 outdoor calendar

Some of the F class matches will be blended with black powder cartridge matches. The F class shoots are 300 and 600 yards. I believe they will all be fired using the pair firing method to help speed things up. Typically these matches are 4 strings of 17 rounds per string. 2 sighters and 15 record shots, for a total of 64 shots.

The fun matches in 2012 will be January through March. They are 100 yard matches, with a run what you got format. They will start at 9 am and take under an hour. Quick and easy way to compete, typical round count will be under 50 rounds. I shoot them prone with a bipod but if you want you are more than welcome to use a bench. Cost is $5 for the fun match, and you dont have to be a member.

Fun shoot course of fire will be something like this.

Cold Bore Shot for tie breaker, measured from center.

Know your limits, 1" to 3/8"

5 Shot group.

These will be followed by 2 or 3 fairly challenging target arrays, with a scoring system designed to have a fairly high risk to reward.

As stated earlier $5, 1 hour, and you dont have to be a member of the club.

PM if you have any questions

Hope to see some of you there.

Matt


 
#5,966
Re: SHWW Group

Dibbs its funny the music is always the hardest part.
Trying to find something that matches the length of the video and that doesn't annoy the hell out of people is always tough

Scott I'm good with 308 and 5.56 because that's what I shoot, But hate to see some of the other calibers excluded for the same reasons Bigwheels states.
Maybe the way I look at comps is different because I'm still new to them but when I go out there I'm competing against myself and how well I think I should be doing on each stage not what another competitor is doing or using next to me.
When I get to the point that I feel the caliber I'm using is limiting how well I should be shooting then I'll change...Pretty simple.

You put all the effort in to run the matches and I'm sure what ever you decide people will fill the spots, I know I will when I can, But on the same token if a match is caliber specific that I don't have it won't hurt my feelings that I can't go either.

Keep your sanity and set em up the way you want to run them.
 
#5,967
Re: SHWW Group

I have 308 so it works for me, but like the others said, it might effect the others who have different rigs, of which those are some of the people who support the sport.

What ever you decide it's up to you since it's your match. I'm sure it would fill up just the same.
 
#5,968
Re: SHWW Group

Let me start off by recognizing that the MD is within their rights to do whatever they want since it's their match. That said, 308 only is a deal breaker for me.

The reason I most often see put forth for events being limited to specific cartridges is that it "levels the playing field" and while that seems to be the case on the surface I don't think it holds up to scrutiny.

If you put restrictions on certain things (in this case the cartridge) people will simply look to other areas to gain a competitive advantage. In the end there will still be an equipment race amongst those looking for any advantage they can get, and in the case of restrictive rules the gains they find will be incremental and likely more expensive than with a more permissive rule set. In the end the people willing to spend the money will find an advantage.

As an example, say a guy shows up with a 28" barreled 308 rifle and he's running a hot load and able to shoot the Berger 215gr Hybrids at 2580fps. (based on the speeds people are getting with 208 amaxes and RL17 I think 2580 with a 215gr bullet out of a 28" barrel should be well within reach) Is he not at a huge ballistic advantage over the guy who shows up with a SPS Tactical shooting a more "standard" load like a 175 Matchking? Restricting the cartridge will simply result in those who are willing to spend money going out and optimizing their rifles and ammunition within the confines of the rules. It won't really level the playing field or prevent an equipment race, it will only shift the equipment race in a new direction.
 
#5,969
Re: SHWW Group

Fortunately we have some folks up here that put forth the effort to put on matches for the rest of us to shoot in. Scott S., Adam B., Jim F., Jeff G, Carl T. to name a select few, are those people, without these folks most of us would have never have met, let alone have shot in a competition. Now if someone wants to put on a match thats a little different, well honestly I have no say in how that person runs his match, I am not out there putting out the effort to organise it. If I was part of a committee for matches, I might beg to differ on what was allowed or not allowed, so all might be included but I am not, so I have no say. I can almost guarantee it though, if Scott puts on a 308/223 match it will be full.
 
#5,971
Re: SHWW Group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mjh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fortunately we have some folks up here that put forth the effort to put on matches for the rest of us to shoot in. Scott S., Adam B., Jim F., Jeff G, Carl T. to name a select few, are those people, without these folks most of us would have never have met, let alone have shot in a competition. Now if someone wants to put on a match thats a little different, well honestly I have no say in how that person runs his match, I am not out there putting out the effort to organise it. If I was part of a committee for matches, I might beg to differ on what was allowed or not allowed, so all might be included but I am not, so I have no say. <span style="color: #009900">I can almost guarantee it though, if Scott puts on a 308/223 match it will be full.</span> </div></div>
I like the idea of mixing it up a little, and honestly, for the 5 or 6 people that may not want to be included, it could open the door for another 10-15 new shooters that may only own a .223.
SScott
 
#5,972
Re: SHWW Group

Personally, I think the 308/223 match would be an added challenge. With that being said, I know everyone doesn't own a 308 or 223, but it might bring out a new group of shooters as well. May have to alter the COF slightly, but it would be fun. No matter what the event, there will always be an equipment race. That's just the nature of competition. The only way around it is to limit the ammo selection and caliber.....say 308 175 smk only and 223 69-77gr smk only type of deal. This would put everyone on a level playing field for sure. Even if somebody did show up with a 30" 308, they wouldn't have much of an advantage over the guy with a 22" 308. That would be a nice challenge.

No offense guys, but knowing your equipment will get you further in this game than anything else. Yes, high performance calibers are nice, but if you don't know what they will do under all conditions, then it really doesn't create any advantage.
 
#5,974
Re: SHWW Group

I guess I'm like Eric, so far I'm really only worried about how I shoot against myself. I go to the matches to try and learn from the guys who have more experience and by trying to put into practice what I learn from other sources. I'll be there if at all possible since that kind of rule doesn't affect me since I shoot .308 anyways. I look at it from the perspective that the guy willing to put in the time to set it up is the one making the rules and if I can play by those rules I'll come to the game.

That said I'd hate to lose some of the guys that don't shoot .308.
 
#5,976
Re: SHWW Group

Just throwing ideas out there... As Travis pointed out the only real way to level the playing field is to specify a cartridge and have a specific ammo requirement. Doing that would certainly help to avoid an equipment race but it would require a certain level of oversight. At USPSA matches where there is a chronograph stage it's possible that they'll pull bullets to weigh them and fire other rounds over a chrono to verify that people aren't lying about bullet weights or velocities.

What if we had a maximum budget for a rifle instead of a specific cartridge and load requirement? I think that would be really interesting, and it would preserve the diversity and desire to experiment with things that makes competitive shooting so interesting and a proving ground for new ideas. Now, certainly there would be a level of oversight involved in this as well, and it would be a little more subjective than set cartridge/bullet rules, but I think it would make for far more interesting matches. The common costs of rifle parts are pretty well known to people, and there could simply be a budget cap for the rifle. Major rifle components could be listed during registration and a rough value of the rifle could easily be determined. While no system, be it cartridge restrictions or a budget cap, will ever be perfect I think the idea of a budget cap could be overseen with relatively little trouble and it would provide for a much more diverse match and still foster the spirit of innovation that makes competitive shooting so great.

Again... just thinking out loud.
 
#5,977
Re: SHWW Group

Equipment budgets would be interesting, but then I think guys would be complaining about having to buy cheaper scopes, etc.... In a perfect world, a ammo sponsor would eliminate all guess work. 308/223 match using "XXXXX" ammo supplied by whoever. Then everyone would know exactly what they were getting into. I would think that we are an honest enough group that if the rules said 175 smk's and 69-77gr bullets, there wouldn't be a problem. For verification, during registration, we pull a bullet and weigh it, then trust that its not a "bait and switch" operation.
 
#5,978
Re: SHWW Group

I'd leave scopes out of it. While one can argue that a high end scope gives you a big advantage over some cheapie, I don't think that there would be any significant swing in finishing order between guys using S&Bs or whatever and any less expensive quality scope. If I were drawing up a budget cap I'd include stock, barrel, trigger, bottom metal, muzzle device, scope base, rings, and bipod. That would keep things relatively simple, and it would cover any equipment that would have a significant effect on scores. For factory rifles I'd just use the street price of the rifle + any accessories that are on the list. For machine work, I'd leave that all out. Again, it's not perfect, but I think it would be relatively easy to oversee and would certainly encourage people to think outside the box and try new things.
 
#5,979
Re: SHWW Group

I agree optics should be left out of the equation if you do the budget rifle. I wouldn't want to buy new optics just to shoot at this event, and then have it sit on the shelf or sell it at a loss.

The idea of just doing the limitations on type of ammo is easiest, ie 308/223. About limiting the weight of the bullet, etc would be painful for the staff hosting the event. I would think you would want to keep the event simple. It's already a lot of work for the volunteers as it is..
 
#5,980
Re: SHWW Group

restrictions for safety and target destruction i understand

restrictions to level the playing field i do not
these take away personal preferences and creativity
how would you feel if wa state said u could only hunt with a .308
we as shooters are not the same
these differences make it interesting

if you want to shoot .308 only might i suggest fclass/ftr
 
#5,981
Re: SHWW Group

I think Scott has it right. Now let me explain. Budgets will not work because some of us smith our own rigs and get discounts from friends. Some buy used parts from the PX. Some are willing to hot rod their gun for more velocity. Who in this economy in going to sponsor 1000 rounds decent of ammo for a small local match. I don't believe that he is trying to run people off by limiting the cal. No, not everyone has the right gun for every match. I someone has a ELR that is 338 only I will not be there and I wont be mad about it. But I would love to see one.

Now if this is going to be for all matches all the time I see a crash in the near future.

Well I hope I haven't offended anyone too badly but that is my 2 cents.
 
#5,982
Re: SHWW Group

Well shit guys, if you really want to narrow it down that much then get a rifle and ammo sponsor and make a "stock rifle" match. Everyone shows up and shoots the provided rifle with the provided ammunition and everyone's happy........Would you like someone to call wind for you as well? Obviously the dope would have to be provided so that's one less thing to worry about. Maybe make it so everyone wins with a "participation trophy" or something while you're at it.

While I think there is value in having some 308/223 only matches for nostalgia, the vast majority of these matches are meant to be a test of current equipment and methods. If you show up to a long range match with a .308 and a passing bird farts and blows your bullet off enough to miss then tough shit. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight:)

As for magnums.....the no-magnum thing is purely for saving the targets. It's not like they really have that much of a ballistic advantage other than energy over a decent 6mm or 6.5mm round. We, as MD's, could (and probably would) allow magnums in the steel matches if you guys wanted to pay a lot more for match fees so we could beef up all the targets. We won't be having much steel at the monthly matches we're putting on so it's a "run-what-you-brung" match up to .338.

Rant over.....have a good day gents! Oh, and to keep on track, I'd certainly try to scrape something together for a .308/223 only match.
 
#5,984
Re: SHWW Group

First let me say that I know that I have not attended any of the local matches and as such my opinion is probably not welcomed. Once life slows down a bit I want to get involved.

How many shooters and how much ammo would be needed per shooter, remember to factor in extra to zero each rifle. I may be able to get a sponsor to cover all or at least get an affordable deep discount

Imo restricting ammo levels things more than gear cost would if that's the intent.
 
#5,985
Re: SHWW Group

If there is a real desire to have everyone on as level a playing field as possible, and ammo costs are a concern then why not do a .22lr only match from 0-300 yards? There could easily be a spec ammo that people could afford no problem, and rifles are cheap enough that it wouldn't be an undue hardship on anyone to get one. It would really be a test of shooter skill to shoot reduced size targets within a couple hundred yards and it would make the problems of ammo costs and people "cheating" with their ammo into non-issues.

Target life is pretty much unlimited even with cheap mild steel targets, and it's easy to make targets hang from pieces of fire hose or a little strip of a mud flap, and the targets will swing when hit.

I actually think it would be pretty fun to meet up with everyone for a .22 match.
 
#5,986
Re: SHWW Group

Well i have been trying real hard to make 2012 a year for me to attend matches, and not traveling for work. With that said i should know by the end of this month if that will be a possibility for me. If things go my way I plan on attending as many matches as possible. If i am not able to shoot due to restrictions. I wouldn't mind being a RO, or helping set them up.

i have to agree with JLR's statement.
 
#5,987
Re: SHWW Group

Holy Clusterfuck Batman!!

Due to the crazy politics going on we will be scratching the 308 only idea. I will supplement my thoughts on leveling the playing field by giving out a award for top 308 shooter regardless what place they are. Only other restriction will be short action non magnum only.
 
#5,990
Re: SHWW Group

Right now, all I have to say is that I'm disappointed in the direction this is leading. 4 yrs ago I held my 1st BSC match with no entry fees or prizes, other than bragging rights, to see if I could get some people to meet , & shoot with from the area. I was pleased to say the least when about 12 guys showed up, & had a good time. Some I shoot with now on a regular basis, & some I only see when I hold a match or attend one put on by someone else. I was hoping to get some others into setting up their own matches, so I could compete, & have some fun of my own shooting against, & learning tricks, etc. from others. However I have hosted, & RO'd more matches by far than I have been allowed to compete in. I recognise that the MD has the right to place limits on the competitors by his choosing, but IMHO this has gotten out of hand. Like I have said before I have not lost a target during a match because of some magical energy above, & beyond a .308 round. My targets are held up with 2 X 4's, & pieces of pipe I have scrounged up from here, & there, & I shoot them all the time with my 300WM. The week link is the bolts, & the cost of grade 8 vs. grade 5 is pennies per bolt. And a direct hit from a .308, or even a 6X47L might blow one up just as often as a 338L, or 300WM. This is my observation, & opinion.
If you are going to run an occasional "service rifle" match that's fine, & it's up to the MD, but I'll have other plans.
As of right now, I'm not feeling verry generous, so if TSI, or others want to have a primer match before FC they are welcome. I'll not be interested in performing all the work to set BSCIV up.
 
#5,996
Re: SHWW Group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bigwheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right now, all I have to say is that I'm disappointed in the direction this is leading. 4 yrs ago I held my 1st BSC match with no entry fees or prizes, other than bragging rights, to see if I could get some people to meet , & shoot with from the area. I was pleased to say the least when about 12 guys showed up, & had a good time. Some I shoot with now on a regular basis, & some I only see when I hold a match or attend one put on by someone else. I was hoping to get some others into setting up their own matches, so I could compete, & have some fun of my own shooting against, & learning tricks, etc. from others. However I have hosted, & RO'd more matches by far than I have been allowed to compete in. I recognise that the MD has the right to place limits on the competitors by his choosing, but IMHO this has gotten out of hand. Like I have said before I have not lost a target during a match because of some magical energy above, & beyond a .308 round. My targets are held up with 2 X 4's, & pieces of pipe I have scrounged up from here, & there, & I shoot them all the time with my 300WM. The week link is the bolts, & the cost of grade 8 vs. grade 5 is pennies per bolt. And a direct hit from a .308, or even a 6X47L might blow one up just as often as a 338L, or 300WM. This is my observation, & opinion.
If you are going to run an occasional "service rifle" match that's fine, & it's up to the MD, but I'll have other plans.
As of right now, I'm not feeling verry generous, so if TSI, or others want to have a primer match before FC they are welcome. I'll not be interested in performing all the work to set BSCIV up. </div></div>

So you're saying that since you can't shoot your magnum in other matches that you're not willing to put on a magnum match at all? Isn't that sort of counter-productive to the cause you're fighting for?
 
#5,997
Re: SHWW Group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bkster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how about a height restriction.... hat will really level the playing field

sorry you are too damn tall to compete today

hahahaha...... i crack myself up</div></div>

Me thinks JTP and TSI would have a bitch about that one LOL!!
 
#5,998
Re: SHWW Group

i can understand the magnum restrictions. At some point you have to set a limit. Hell there are a few of you here that have bigger than 300WM. And need less to say they would cause more damage to steel than a 300WM.

Jeff just think if some one showed up to one of your matches with a 50 BMG and was blowing holes through all your steel.

 
#5,999
Re: SHWW Group

just to be clear i have no issues with any restrictions anybody else puts on there matches!!! if you want to have a long range lever gun match odds are i will build/buy/borrow or steal a lever gun so that i can play, i just love banging steel and competing!!!

In my opinion one of the most fun aspects of this sport is the freedom that is involved in the different matches to create whatever they want.

The key in this game is to be able to adapt to the current conditions, whether it be caliber restritions, barracades, ranging, running/gunning, rapid fire, slow fire, positional. To me the real field shooter should be able to do any/all of these things, you must have the ability to adapt to your conditions and hit reasonable size targets at reasonable distances
 
#6,000
Re: SHWW Group

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TeamSendIt!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">just to be clear i have no issues with any restrictions anybody else puts on there matches!!! if you want to have a long range lever gun match odds are i will build/buy/borrow or steal a lever gun so that i can play, i just love banging steel and competing!!!

In my opinion one of the most fun aspects of this sport is the freedom that is involved in the different matches to create whatever they want.

The key in this game is to be able to adapt to the current conditions, whether it be caliber restritions, barracades, ranging, running/gunning, rapid fire, slow fire, positional. To me the real field shooter should be able to do any/all of these things, you must have the ability to adapt to your conditions and hit reasonable size targets at reasonable distances</div></div>

AW shit, I'm going to have to agree with TSI on this post...time to go smash thumb with hammer now LOOOOOOL.
 
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