A friend of mine sent this to me thinking it was important enough to share with the masses. I think he's right. I'll let you Sig P320 guys reach your own conclusions. If leaving 'this' test out on purpose is proven I'll never touch another Sig in my lifetime.
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Sidearms & Scatterguns Sig Sauer P320 Fails Drop Test
- Thread starter 1J04
- Start date
Can anyone explain why the dropped gun didn't eject the fired brass? My guess would be that the impact stopped the slide from moving.
I also wonder if they were using blanks. I wouldn't want to be the one dropping it if it were live ammo.
If it's true, they'll rate right up there with Eotech in my book. (Well, maybe not that bad, but bad enough). If a company knows there's an issue, fix it.
I also wonder if they were using blanks. I wouldn't want to be the one dropping it if it were live ammo.
If it's true, they'll rate right up there with Eotech in my book. (Well, maybe not that bad, but bad enough). If a company knows there's an issue, fix it.
slash, you really dont like eo tech that much? i shoot with it am on the fence with turning it back in..
pm me your opine, please
pm me your opine, please
We are issued Glocks, but you can place your thumb on the back of the slide and keep it from cycling. Doesn't take much to do it. There are situations where you don't want the slide to move when firing, so not cycling due to pressure isn't alarming.
I was given the distinct impression that that particular type of drop test is not normally performed on pistols. In fact, going back and reviewing the vid again, he specifically states that this type of drop test is not currently a standard drop test for either commercial or government testing. If that is the case, then it obviously does need to be added as a normal drop test method.
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I'm sure they were using blanks for this test.
Common to not cycle without mass/energy in a full tilt load.
Interesting vid 1j04, a bud was looking to buy one of these.
R
Common to not cycle without mass/energy in a full tilt load.
Interesting vid 1j04, a bud was looking to buy one of these.
R
lash: It amazes me this isn't standard during testing. It's obvious why it should have been from the get go.
Rthur: Is 'interesting' I agree. My "friend" *cough*cough* who is vacationing in an area I'd rather not, was ADAMANT this info needed to be shared. I actually agree, but we also know about another recent manufacturer that was raked over the grills during a bullshit campaign. We'll see how this plays out I suppose.
Rthur: Is 'interesting' I agree. My "friend" *cough*cough* who is vacationing in an area I'd rather not, was ADAMANT this info needed to be shared. I actually agree, but we also know about another recent manufacturer that was raked over the grills during a bullshit campaign. We'll see how this plays out I suppose.
You bring up a good point, that smear campaigns have succeeded in the past when internet followers blindly took first appearances and ran with them. This does look like it needs to be addressed and Sig will have to handle it as openly and rapidly as is possible if they want to avoid a big black eye out of all of this. Sometimes an early recall, whether warranted or not, is a way (albeit expensive) to put these things to rest. Ala Ruger's Mark IV.
In the video description he mentions they were using primed cases. Explains why there is no slide movement and why it was being dropped by hand.
That's interesting that a drop in that orientation is not part of the government testing standards. Sig is not necessarily covering anything up or hiding anything if that is the case, and many other guns that do not employ a trigger blade safety could also discharge using that testing method.
Their test results are interesting, even if their methods are not the best, i.e.- using several guns they have already "torture tested", and dropping them inconsistently by hand. Poor test methods aside, it does give pause.
Dave
Their test results are interesting, even if their methods are not the best, i.e.- using several guns they have already "torture tested", and dropping them inconsistently by hand. Poor test methods aside, it does give pause.
Dave
The difference they found in discharges when dropped between Sig's different trigger shoes makes me wonder if an even lighter trigger shoe design like what Apex offers would solve the problem. After watching it again it seems like something as simple as a trigger shoe redesign could be an easy fix.
Dave
Dave
I'm a fan of Sig, carry one for work and have owned many. But I'm going to say that after being awarded a large scale contract on this weapon, Sig is going to have to address this almost immediately and for the simple sake of business, I hope their response is a good one.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What is the additional info when you say there's more to it?
Their original video, which you posted, and their article were very thorough. This is one of the few times an independent test actually has me believing the results. I always feel like YouTube testing is swayed one way or another but these guys are actually discontinuing sales on a big item because of the findings.
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I saw this earlier this morning. I have two of them, a carry and a subcompact. The carry is my "nightstand" gun and I'm still putting the subcompact through its paces before I buy a holster and start carrying it. I'll be paying attention to this, and I may drop test them just to see what happens. I'll do it on carpet though. No way I'm dropping them on concrete just out of curiosity.
Obviously the video doesn't lie, but I wonder what would happen if other guns were put to the same test if this is a non-standard test. Also, I wonder if the cumulative effects of repeated testing contributed to the failures because of damage/wear and tear. Either way, this looks bad on Sig even if their hands are clean. As someone else said above, it would probably be a wise PR move to go ahead and recall if there is a simple fix like a different trigger shoe or even a blade safety like glock.
I really like the guns so far, but I've been looking for an excuse to try a vp9 as it's about the only polymer, striker fired pistol I haven't tried yet. This may be what pushes me to do that.
Obviously the video doesn't lie, but I wonder what would happen if other guns were put to the same test if this is a non-standard test. Also, I wonder if the cumulative effects of repeated testing contributed to the failures because of damage/wear and tear. Either way, this looks bad on Sig even if their hands are clean. As someone else said above, it would probably be a wise PR move to go ahead and recall if there is a simple fix like a different trigger shoe or even a blade safety like glock.
I really like the guns so far, but I've been looking for an excuse to try a vp9 as it's about the only polymer, striker fired pistol I haven't tried yet. This may be what pushes me to do that.
I've also thought of other manufacturer's giving this a go. Inquiring minds wanna know. I may just ask my RO if he'd run a few through it. And to be clear, and happy nobody grabbed the rope and ran with it, this is not meant whatsoever to be a smear. Nothing more than a PSA and heads-up. Will be interesting to follow and if I can get some vid of other test's put together I'll post it up.
Interesting...I always thought the drop test was done in that fashion, not on the muzzle. It makes sense to do it on the muzzle, but I think equally important on the rear of the slide as well.
Good for them for recognizing the potential bad press, whether warranted or not and taking quick and decisive action. It should calm people's concerns and let them see that Sig is not like most car companies.
I'm happy that an update is being performed. My department issues P229s and we were looking to switch to the 320s. There was immediate hesitation after yesterday but this should squash it. We got a chance to demo them and I really like it so I'm happy the issue will be resolved.
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A little off topic BUT
My wife wanted a P320 sub compact for her carry pistol so I bought her one. First time out with factory Winchester 115s and also Blazed 115s we had two failures to fire. No pin strike on the first one. Trigger reset and click. 20 rounds later it happened again. This time I didn't eject the round, just chamber checked it and it fired. I bought her a P238 the next day. Fixed or not I will never trust this pistol.
Sig asked me to run a couple hundred more rounds to try to duplicate before I sent it in. They said they have never heard of this, and I believe the guy I spoke to honestly hasn't but there are several YouTube videos showing the same failure. I just tossed it back in the box and put it away. I may send it in to get them to adjust "timing" but it will never get carried.
Before anyone calls me a Sig hater, I carry a P938, my daughter has a P238 and my wife has a P230 lightweight, a P320 and a P238. I also have an Astra A100 (my first pistol ever) that's just a Spanish copy of a P228. I wanted to like the P320, it has a great trigger (for a DAO) and handles well, but it'll never be more than a loaner range pistol now.
My wife wanted a P320 sub compact for her carry pistol so I bought her one. First time out with factory Winchester 115s and also Blazed 115s we had two failures to fire. No pin strike on the first one. Trigger reset and click. 20 rounds later it happened again. This time I didn't eject the round, just chamber checked it and it fired. I bought her a P238 the next day. Fixed or not I will never trust this pistol.
Sig asked me to run a couple hundred more rounds to try to duplicate before I sent it in. They said they have never heard of this, and I believe the guy I spoke to honestly hasn't but there are several YouTube videos showing the same failure. I just tossed it back in the box and put it away. I may send it in to get them to adjust "timing" but it will never get carried.
Before anyone calls me a Sig hater, I carry a P938, my daughter has a P238 and my wife has a P230 lightweight, a P320 and a P238. I also have an Astra A100 (my first pistol ever) that's just a Spanish copy of a P228. I wanted to like the P320, it has a great trigger (for a DAO) and handles well, but it'll never be more than a loaner range pistol now.
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I shot the full size & the compact versions of the P320 last year. I didn't care for either because each version had a sloppy trigger. I'm not a Sig hater but this pistol is a turd. Period. It ought to be renamed the POS 320. Im not a fan at all. However, there is a simple fix; buy something else.
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an anti Sig guy or someone else's fanboy advocating for any other particular pistol. But, I was very turned off by this particular Sig offering.
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DISCLAIMER: I'm not an anti Sig guy or someone else's fanboy advocating for any other particular pistol. But, I was very turned off by this particular Sig offering.
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The only reason this is a topic is because the mil chose this gun as their new weapon.
Shit happens when shit happens. I try not to drop my pistols and if that is a potential than wear a lanyard.
Who knows what can happen when a gun is dropped.
Id rather see a jump test. What happens when I jump off a six foot wall and land on my feet with the holstered gun? will it go off? Thats a likely scenario.
I thought the whole military gun buy had been put to bed.
Didnt the mil just buy a shit ton of spares not to long ago to keep the Beretta viable? Wasnt the general consensus that pistols are pretty much useless for most in the mil except a select few? Seems the select few will be using something different still.
The way this came about the last week or so of the last administration screams Cloward and Piven or "Lets fuck Beretta for being vocal in protecting the 2A after Newtown"
The novel thing about this pistol is that "the gun" as recognized by the ATF is not a gun.
The ability to swap parts and maintain the fire control chassis as inventory should be a benefit over time.
It will be a cluster if fixing the drop issue requires replacing the part of the gun that is inventoried.
Shit happens when shit happens. I try not to drop my pistols and if that is a potential than wear a lanyard.
Who knows what can happen when a gun is dropped.
Id rather see a jump test. What happens when I jump off a six foot wall and land on my feet with the holstered gun? will it go off? Thats a likely scenario.
I thought the whole military gun buy had been put to bed.
Didnt the mil just buy a shit ton of spares not to long ago to keep the Beretta viable? Wasnt the general consensus that pistols are pretty much useless for most in the mil except a select few? Seems the select few will be using something different still.
The way this came about the last week or so of the last administration screams Cloward and Piven or "Lets fuck Beretta for being vocal in protecting the 2A after Newtown"
The novel thing about this pistol is that "the gun" as recognized by the ATF is not a gun.
The ability to swap parts and maintain the fire control chassis as inventory should be a benefit over time.
It will be a cluster if fixing the drop issue requires replacing the part of the gun that is inventoried.
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SO, last week I read a PR piece from Sig stating emphatically that their P320 was safe and had no issues. Also that the "test" performed was not industry standard. This morning, on The Shooting Wire, Sig responds with a new statement. Now they imply that is could happen on certain P320 pistols and that, beginning August 14, they have a fix for it. I worked in the industry and can honestly say there hasn't been a manufacturer that has never had an issue so I do not condemn Sig for a problem. My immediate thought was "how did Sig win the Mil contract if this was an issue"? "Didn't they test them exhaustively?" But the last part of Sigs press release today states that the M17 Mil version is not affected. Does that mean the issue arose during testing and a fix was done on the M17? If so, does that mean they tried to cover up? An interesting way to go about dealing with it in any case.
Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and not that of any former employer.
Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and not that of any former employer.
sig is only offering replacements now that there are videos proving they fire when dropped.......and they are replacing it with parts from the MHS contract pistols.........meaning SIG has likely known about the drop safety issue for a while and has remained quiet about it......so fuck sig.
The interesting thing to me is how many pistols have come out in the last twenty years that have a grip or firing pin safety (or both) that physically block firing when dropped? Purtnear all of them. Why was this not a first consideration? How did this pistol bypass a primary criteria?
It has a firing pin block.
Seems that inertia causes the trigger to pull itself.
The fix would seem to be a lighter trigger that will probably break or a heavier trigger pull everyone will hate or the manual safety that everyone says will cause death when it's forgotten to be disengaged.
Guns shoot bullets, it's what they do.
A 100% safe gun can be engineered. No one will want it. The Liberals will love it.
Sig knows about the issue, easy fix.
Seems that inertia causes the trigger to pull itself.
The fix would seem to be a lighter trigger that will probably break or a heavier trigger pull everyone will hate or the manual safety that everyone says will cause death when it's forgotten to be disengaged.
Guns shoot bullets, it's what they do.
A 100% safe gun can be engineered. No one will want it. The Liberals will love it.
Sig knows about the issue, easy fix.
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So the trigger replacement will eliminate the "double click". I suspect this issue is what is causing my occasional FTFs. Supposed to fix the drop fire issue, though the double click is likely unrelated. Maybe they are fixing two known issues in one swipe? Hopefully I will get ours the turned around soon.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ry-upgrade-pistols-will-receive-mhs-triggers/
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ry-upgrade-pistols-will-receive-mhs-triggers/
Gee, and to think that this all started because the Dallas Police Department read the legal warnings in the owners manual.
Not really. I know you mentioned 1911. That is a good example. Drop the gun how many times and it won't fire in any direction. The firing pin is block and the trigger is not engaged until the beaver-grip is held down. I'm just surprised there is nothing like that on this pistol.
As to the lighter trigger, it will go off if you apply something like 1/3rd more of an ounce? This may be a chest-high drop, not going off thing, but all that needs happen is for this to be a head-high drop and it's back to going off.
Anti 1911 people claim all those safetys on a 1911 are a detriment and potential failure.
The 1911 was intended to be fired off horseback and they only wanted it to go bang when manual safety was set to fire, pistol was properly gripped, slide was in solid battery and most importantly trigger was pulled.
Its only in the overly litigious times that the 1911 included a firing pin block, another level of safety in a pistol already loaded with safety....and the worlds best trigger.
Lots of high speed people these days pin the grip safety on a 1911 and bitch about the series 80 trigger.
Oh well you will never make everyone happy and you will never make an item that shoots projectiles completely safe.
I carry a striker fired weapon. Everyone exclaims of its safety. To my understanding its is about 98% cocked, has no manual safety, and relies on a little corner of plastic and a hinged trigger for safety which has been shown to be easily defeated by drawstrings on a sweatshirt.
The 1911 was intended to be fired off horseback and they only wanted it to go bang when manual safety was set to fire, pistol was properly gripped, slide was in solid battery and most importantly trigger was pulled.
Its only in the overly litigious times that the 1911 included a firing pin block, another level of safety in a pistol already loaded with safety....and the worlds best trigger.
Lots of high speed people these days pin the grip safety on a 1911 and bitch about the series 80 trigger.
Oh well you will never make everyone happy and you will never make an item that shoots projectiles completely safe.
I carry a striker fired weapon. Everyone exclaims of its safety. To my understanding its is about 98% cocked, has no manual safety, and relies on a little corner of plastic and a hinged trigger for safety which has been shown to be easily defeated by drawstrings on a sweatshirt.
Sig knew of the problem and made changes ... M17. Plus they stated it only effects some P320.. wonder why that is? They knew and now are CYA. I like Sig. I like the 320. But it's not my favorite by anymeans. Just a bummer they didn't come clean before this all broke out.
Of course Sig winning over Glock hasn't helped all the Glock fans from screaming this from.every rooftop. Don't blame them either
My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
Of course Sig winning over Glock hasn't helped all the Glock fans from screaming this from.every rooftop. Don't blame them either
My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
EOTech didn't have any issues either & it was awarded a government contract... Weren't the EOTechs tested exhaustively as well?
I have dropped mine over and over just like in the "video"...... and nothing, +/- 20 drops from 4 1/2 feet ish. I'm calling a little bullshit...
For what it's worth...
The M17 varies enough from the standard P320 that this issue did not apply. It wasn't a matter of 'Sig knew and fixed it on the M17'. The same test on M17s did not yield the malfunction. As for the X-Carry, the X5 and the VTAC models, all of those models shipped after the upgrade was made available and have different style triggers anyway, so there is no 'pre-upgrade' version of those three variants.
Context: I'm not a fanboy for any brand, and I have owned both 'standard' 320s (pre-upgrade) and an X-Carry, which is my daily gun. Thus far, runs like a Swiss watch.
The M17 varies enough from the standard P320 that this issue did not apply. It wasn't a matter of 'Sig knew and fixed it on the M17'. The same test on M17s did not yield the malfunction. As for the X-Carry, the X5 and the VTAC models, all of those models shipped after the upgrade was made available and have different style triggers anyway, so there is no 'pre-upgrade' version of those three variants.
Context: I'm not a fanboy for any brand, and I have owned both 'standard' 320s (pre-upgrade) and an X-Carry, which is my daily gun. Thus far, runs like a Swiss watch.
Also, comments from Army Gen. Milley, via guns.com:
http://www.guns.com/2017/09/19/gen-milley-the-xm17-is-altogether-different-than-the-p320/
http://www.guns.com/2017/09/19/gen-milley-the-xm17-is-altogether-different-than-the-p320/
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