Advanced Marksmanship Sight Picture vs Rifle Hop on Bipod

[cavemanmoore]

Let's start with a disclaimer: Both of these subjects have been beaten to death. I know because I spent all day practicing my search-fu looking for answers. This thread is to confirm what I think I learned.

Bi-pod hop is as real as roll over's on I70. Both of which can be attributed to operator error. We can correct bi-pod hop by driving our rifles correctly.

Bullet point of impact: Assuming equipment is up to par, and the rifle is zeroed, the bullet will impact exactly where I point the gun. If I pull the trigger smoothly and miss the mark (in my case a single 3/8" dot on the Hide Practical Tactical Target), it was because I was not looking straight through the scope.

If those two things are are correct then hitting what I aim at has nothing to do with shoulder position, cheek weld, or loading my bi-pod. It only has to do with the relationship between my eye and the scope. All those other things are relative to safety, comfort or getting back on target quickly.

I am missing anything or is this all accurate?

-Chris

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: Sight Picture vs Rifle Hop on Bipod

You are missing a bit of what makes it work correctly

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Sight Picture vs Rifle Hop on Bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let's start with a disclaimer: Both of these subjects have been beaten to death. I know because I spent all day practicing my search-fu looking for answers. This thread is to confirm what I think I learned.

Bi-pod hop is as real as roll over's on I70. Both of which can be attributed to operator error. We can correct bi-pod hop by driving our rifles correctly.

Bullet point of impact: Assuming equipment is up to par, and the rifle is zeroed, the bullet will impact exactly where I point the gun. If I pull the trigger smoothly and miss the mark (in my case a single 3/8" dot on the Hide Practical Tactical Target), it was because I was not looking straight through the scope.

If those two things are are correct then hitting what I aim at has nothing to do with shoulder position, cheek weld, or loading my bi-pod. It only has to do with the relationship between my eye and the scope. All those other things are relative to safety, comfort or getting back on target quickly.

I am missing anything or is this all accurate?

-Chris</div></div>


Start with this fact: The bullet will always go in the direction the barrel is pointed. Therefore, when the bullet does not go where aimed, assuming proper sight alignment, trigger control, sight adjustment for distance and environmental conditions, an inconsistent relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground is suspect. Remember, correct analysis of any error is possible by following-through, calling the shot.

There are five factors to a solid position: stockweld, butt-to-shoulder, elbows, non-firing hand, and grip. Exercising these factors to a molecular level of consistency will assure aim and barrel direction convergence, when the position has been built honoring the elements of a steady position: muscular relaxation, NPA, and bone/artificial support.

Making the position consistent until recoil subsides is what this stuff is all about. Just think about it, if recoil is unpredictable, as induced by an inconsistent position, how could it be possible for the bullet to go exactly where desired.

It's not enough to have a well built gun and massaged ammunition. For the best results, the shooter must strive to be perfect, if bullets in one hole is the goal. Most folks, however, just can't get a handle on shooter perfection, that's to say, they can't muster it, either because they're ignorant of it's importance, or simply don't have the discipline to get it.

Interestingly, however, outside of smallbore or NRA LR competition at the highest level, shooter perfection may be moot. But, to win in the higher levels of competition, shooter perfection is key.

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Sight Picture vs Rifle Hop on Bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are missing a bit of what makes it work correctly </div></div>

Jacob,

When I first read your response I thought you were being sarcastic. Then I realized you were directly answering my question. Thanks.

I remember a guy returning from Rifle's Only who fired a few rounds with his AICS 2.0 in the folded position. He hit his target. Lowlight also posted a video where he fired 5 rounds from different shooting positions. I believe the point they were trying to reinforce was if you look through the scope the same every time, and don't screw up squeezing the trigger, your POI will be on target. Is that right? Why or why not?

I know my posts tend to get long, but I am not able to adequately convey my ideas / questions with less. I appreciate your help.

-Chris

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Sight Picture vs Rifle Hop on Bipod

as long as each bad habit is done exactly the same each and every time the firing pin hits the primer, yes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cavemanmoore</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If those two things are are correct then hitting what I aim at has nothing to do with shoulder position, cheek weld, or loading my bi-pod. It only has to do with the relationship between my eye and the scope. All those other things are relative to safety, comfort or getting back on target quickly.

I am missing anything or is this all accurate?

-Chris</div></div>

 

[cavemanmoore]

Re: Sight Picture vs Rifle Hop on Bipod

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Start with this fact: The bullet will always go in the direction the barrel is pointed. Therefore, when the bullet does not go where aimed, assuming proper sight alignment, trigger control, sight adjustment for distance and environmental conditions, an inconsistent relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground is suspect. Remember, correct analysis of any error is possible by following-through, calling the shot.

There are five factors to a solid position: stockweld, butt-to-shoulder, elbows, non-firing hand, and grip. Exercising these factors to a molecular level of consistency will assure aim and barrel direction convergence, when the position has been built honoring the elements of a steady position: muscular relaxation, NPA, and bone/artificial support.

Making the position consistent until recoil subsides is what this stuff is all about. Just think about it, if recoil is unpredictable, as induced by an inconsistent position, how could it be possible for the bullet to go exactly where desired.

It's not enough to have a well built gun and massaged ammunition. For the best results, the shooter must strive to be perfect, if bullets in one hole is the goal. Most folks, however, just can't get a handle on shooter perfection, that's to say, they can't muster it, either because they're ignorant of it's importance, or simply don't have the discipline to get it.

Interestingly, however, outside of smallbore or NRA LR competition at the highest level, shooter perfection may be moot. But, to win in the higher levels of competition, shooter perfection is key. </div></div>

Mr. Ludwig

Thanks for taking time to respond to my question. I know answering seemingly the same questions over and over would seem redundant. I assure you I tried my best to answer my own question before posting. Actually I think you answered my question here: (I did paraphrase a bit)

"Making the position consistent until recoil subsides is what this stuff is all about. If recoil is unpredictable it's not possible for the bullet to go exactly where desired."

Here is what I learned based on what you said. Please chime in if I'm wrong. I need to learn to hold the rifle so that the recoil is managed correctly. Then if my POA is off I can change the egronomics of the rifle to match my position. Not do it the other way around.

-Chris

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Sight Picture vs Rifle Hop on Bipod

In the sort of shooting I do, the idea is a repeat performance, typically 20 rounds for record at 1000 yards, where X ring hits are the goal. For this sort of shooting, consistency of position from the first shot through the last is essential for any chance for shots to go exactly where aimed. Just a minute change of elbow contact with the ground or perhaps butt to shoulder position will make recoil different enough to effectively cause me to loose recognition for where the barrel is pointed, although my sight alignment may be close to perfect.

BTW, you can experiment with the effects of inconsistency by deliberately changing a particular aspect of your position. The magnitude of just a few thousands of an inch change in any aspect will blow you away, that's to say, if you already have very good marksmanship skills allowing for a particular source of error to be unmasked. Now, add sight alignment error, where just a .004 change in perspective of aim is worth about an inch at 300 yards, and you can perhaps appreciate the importance for shooter perfection, when perfection is useful. In tactical shooting such perfection may be moot, or simply not possible to achieve, given that that every new shot is on different ground; and there are no sighter shots to refine the zero for the different ground.