Single vs 2 stage trigger

[PrimoLuvr]

All.
I searched the forum and couldn't find a thread that directly addresses my questions regarding trigger type.
I'll start by explaining my history with a 2 stage trigger. For years while shooting bullseye competitively I used a Hammerli 208S pistol. The 208S has a $2000 trigger inside a $500 gun. The gun was nice and accurate. But, the trigger was a work of art. Both trigger stages were adjustable for weight and sear engagement, at least perceived movement during the first stage since the sear isn't moving at that point. I would adjust the trigger to feel like a long, smooth roll with no perceptible change when transitioning into the 2nd stage.
Now that I am in possession of my first AR I question the trigger, it was assembled with a Geissele SSA-E 2 stage trigger. TBH, I had no idea what that would feel like. The 1st stage is pretty light with a lot of movement before hitting the 2nd stage. Once the trigger is at the 2nd stage it feels like 3 lbs or so in weight and is very crisp. I dry fired the gun repeatedly to get a feel for this trigger. When the trigger resets it's just forward of the 2nd stage, very little light movement rearward is required before hitting the wall again at the 2nd stage, which finishes again with a crisp pull.

My questions are:
1- What's the purpose in a 2 stage like this? To me this feels like a 1911 with A LOT of pre-travel before hitting the wall.
2- Shouldn't the trigger reset all the way to the beginning of the 1st stage? The first stage seems pointless since the trigger resets essentially to the beginning of the 2nd stage.

For bullseye competition I can explain exactly why a fully adjustable 2 stage trigger is beneficial, but I don't understand how the trigger I now possess provides any benefit over a single stage trigger. Not looking to upset anyone with these questions/observations, I would really like to understand. Hope I explained myself well. Thanks!

 

[msgriff]

White Oak Armament is fairly well known and respected in the precision AR world. Although I don't necessarily agree with their position, their explanation is valid and often repeated.

"You will never get a single stage trigger on an AR that will stand up to the constant use of a competitive high-powered rifle unless it has a lot of creep, and I don't think you want that. The ONLY way to reduce creep in any of the single stage AR triggers is by reducing sear engagement. By time you get the sear engagement to the point that you do not have any noticable creep, you do not have enough left for reliability.

For the casual shooter who shoots 500 rounds a year, or for the guy who likes to shoot little groups off a bench and can readjust his trigger every shooting session, that may be fine. However, the HP shooter needs a trigger that breaks the same every time, and a trigger that can make it through at least two weeks of the nationals, preferably a whole season, without having to tinker with it. Also, if you get the creep down to a point where you do not have any perceivable trigger movement when you break the shot, the safety is not going to be reliable. The safety in an AR blocks trigger movement, not the hammer.

If you only have .010" of trigger movement, then you are going to have to have the safety within .010 of the trigger when in the safe position. This is a little tougher than just removing the safety."

 

[tucaz]

i have used a geiselle single stage precision and ssa-e in a scoped rifle, just to see which i liked best.

the break is nearly identical btw the 2 but i get better results with the 2 stage. probably more mental, knowing what comes next after the take up.

i’m no pro though, just a guy that shoots a few thousand rounds a year busting rocks in the desert.

 

[Charmingmander]

Personal preference mostly. On gas guns, I've tended to like the 2 stage triggers for anything with an optic since I can stage the trigger for my shot. It's helped me shoot paper groups a bit better.

On bolt guns or red dot equipped guns I usually like single stage.

 

[TACC]

My personal preference has been to use 2 stage on everything, that consistency has made it easier to plan shots as well.

 

[FredHammer]

I've tuned some sweet 2 stage triggers. John Holliger of WOP/WOA showed me how. With that said, I personally don't know the difference. With 2 stage you have travel till it hits the wall. With a single stage, one is at the wall. What does it matter as long as you know what to expect at the wall?

I'm running TT Diamonds flat bow triggers at 1lbs. 4 of them. 3 bolt, 1 AR trigger. (AR trigger is at 1.5lbs) Love them.
Can a two stage trigger help a shooter in the sequence before fire? Maybe. Are 2 stage triggers for people who can't keep their finger off the trigger? Maybe. Are 2 stage triggers cheap and then a huge profit can be made by tuning them. YES.

 

[hlee]

A 2 stage trigger allows you to have a heavier pull weight that feels lighter. The SSA-E triggers are supposed to have a nominal 1st stage pull weight of ~2.5 lbs and a nominal 2nd stage pull weight of ~1 lb. Because you are holding the 2.5 lbs of the 1st stage at the wall, the trigger feels lighter because you are only adding 1 lb to break the shot. Safer than a 1 lb trigger. Better feel than a 3.5 lb trigger.

 

[FredHammer]

A 2 stage trigger allows you to have a heavier pull weight that feels lighter. The SSA-E triggers are supposed to have a nominal 1st stage pull weight of ~2.5 lbs and a nominal 2nd stage pull weight of ~1 lb. Because you are holding the 2.5 lbs of the 1st stage at the wall, the trigger feels lighter because you are only adding 1 lb to break the shot. Safer than a 1 lb trigger. Better feel than a 3.5 lb trigger.

So yeah. A 2 stage trigger is a single stage trigger, identifying as a 2 stage trigger... I don't believe the 1st stage of a 2 stage is 2.5lbs pull, it just takes that amount off the totality of gross pull weight.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

With 2 stage you have travel till it hits the wall. With a single stage, one is at the wall. What does it matter as long as you know what to expect at the wall?

That's my opinion as well. I have quite a few of each types and always shake my head when I hear people say they can't shoot well with one or the other.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

Any comments on JP enterprises drop in triggers?

They make high end precision gas gun with single stage triggers?

 

[Basher]

Frank often says it that a 2-stage lets you “marry up to the trigger” before the shot. Some if these super light single stage triggers barely let you get your finger on the trigger before they break, which can make applying the fundamentals tricky. A 2-stage lets you get positive control of the trigger all the way up to the wall of the 2nd stage, so you know exactly when it will break. Throw in the safety aspect and I find them to be an ideal setup.

Not that you can’t have a safe, light, and effective single stage, lots of them are out there. I have and can use both, but highly prefer a good 2-stage. Nobody currently makes a good field-grade 2-stage for the M70/FNH SPR, so I run that as a single for now until I can track down a used CG Xtreme/XTSP 2-stage.

 

[PrimoLuvr]

So yeah. A 2 stage trigger is a single stage trigger, identifying as a 2 stage trigger... I don't believe the 1st stage of a 2 stage is 2.5lbs pull, it just takes that amount off the totality of gross pull weight.

That's funny! At least the trigger isn't trying to identify as the buttstock, that would be some confusion...

 

[acudaowner]

like both but my favorite is still the single stage flat blade tt diamond it's divine in my opinion ( not that , that is worth anything )

 

[Charmingmander]

like both but my favorite is still the single stage flat blade tt diamond it's divine in my opinion ( not that , that is worth anything )

I've heard those TT Diamonds are awesome.

 

[Tokay444]

White Oak Armament is fairly well known and respected in the precision AR world. Although I don't necessarily agree with their position, their explanation is valid and often repeated.

"You will never get a single stage trigger on an AR that will stand up to the constant use of a competitive high-powered rifle unless it has a lot of creep, and I don't think you want that. The ONLY way to reduce creep in any of the single stage AR triggers is by reducing sear engagement. By time you get the sear engagement to the point that you do not have any noticable creep, you do not have enough left for reliability.

For the casual shooter who shoots 500 rounds a year, or for the guy who likes to shoot little groups off a bench and can readjust his trigger every shooting session, that may be fine. However, the HP shooter needs a trigger that breaks the same every time, and a trigger that can make it through at least two weeks of the nationals, preferably a whole season, without having to tinker with it. Also, if you get the creep down to a point where you do not have any perceivable trigger movement when you break the shot, the safety is not going to be reliable. The safety in an AR blocks trigger movement, not the hammer.

If you only have .010" of trigger movement, then you are going to have to have the safety within .010 of the trigger when in the safe position. This is a little tougher than just removing the safety."

Does all that transfer to the Triggertech single stage, or have they managed to overcome those hurdles?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Some if these super light single stage triggers barely let you get your finger on the trigger before they break, which can make applying the fundamentals tricky.

In a gas gun? Never heard of a trigger that light.

 

[diggler1833]

I've just settled on what I was used to. I shot crappy two-stage triggers my entire career, and every bolt action rifle in the family used a single stage. So when I started assembling my own ARs, I just stuck with two-stage triggers so I don't have to re-think the application of my finger. Trigger manipulation for bolt vs. semi was second nature...until I bought an AI a few weeks ago...Now I have to consciously remember what I'm doing.

I did put together a large frame AR for my dad, who insisted on a single stage trigger. One night while I was hog hunting with it I managed to break the shot while I was trying to take up the first stage that didn't exist. Fortunately the rifle was on target and the pig dropped...but damn if it didn't give me a start for a moment.

 

[hlee]

I don't believe the 1st stage of a 2 stage is 2.5lbs pull, it just takes that amount off the totality of gross pull weight.

I just went through the triggers that I own- every one was measured with my RCBS trigger pull gauge. Each measurement below is an average of 10 pulls. Each pull was from the center of the bow. I paused at the wall of the 1st stage to get the 1st stage measurement, then finished the pull to get the total pull weight. The reported 2nd stage weight is the difference between the total pull weight and the 1st stage weight.

I'm very curious how the 1st stage could "take that amount off the total pull weight..."

 

[FredHammer]

View attachment 8185399
I just went through the triggers that I own- every one was measured with my RCBS trigger pull gauge. Each measurement below is an average of 10 pulls. Each pull was from the center of the bow. I paused at the wall of the 1st stage to get the 1st stage measurement, then finished the pull to get the total pull weight. The reported 2nd stage weight is the difference between the total pull weight and the 1st stage weight.

I'm very curious how the 1st stage could "take that amount off the total pull weight..."

View attachment 8185411

Nice job! The slack just never feels like the weight, guess due to being in motion and not at a wall.

 

[PrimoLuvr]

With 2 stage you have travel till it hits the wall. With a single stage, one is at the wall. What does it matter as long as you know what to expect at the wall?

I like knowing what to expect too.

 

[PrimoLuvr]

On White Oak's website I found a Geissele trigger comparison chart. Looks like the Hi-Speed Match, Service and DMR triggers are adjustable for second stage weight and sear engagement. Does anyone on here use one of these? I'm curious if the sear engagement can be adjusted to feel the movement? And if so is that movement smooth?

 

[Constructor]

All.
I searched the forum and couldn't find a thread that directly addresses my questions regarding trigger type.
I'll start by explaining my history with a 2 stage trigger. For years while shooting bullseye competitively I used a Hammerli 208S pistol. The 208S has a $2000 trigger inside a $500 gun. The gun was nice and accurate. But, the trigger was a work of art. Both trigger stages were adjustable for weight and sear engagement, at least perceived movement during the first stage since the sear isn't moving at that point. I would adjust the trigger to feel like a long, smooth roll with no perceptible change when transitioning into the 2nd stage.
Now that I am in possession of my first AR I question the trigger, it was assembled with a Geissele SSA-E 2 stage trigger. TBH, I had no idea what that would feel like. The 1st stage is pretty light with a lot of movement before hitting the 2nd stage. Once the trigger is at the 2nd stage it feels like 3 lbs or so in weight and is very crisp. I dry fired the gun repeatedly to get a feel for this trigger. When the trigger resets it's just forward of the 2nd stage, very little light movement rearward is required before hitting the wall again at the 2nd stage, which finishes again with a crisp pull.

My questions are:
1- What's the purpose in a 2 stage like this? To me this feels like a 1911 with A LOT of pre-travel before hitting the wall.
2- Shouldn't the trigger reset all the way to the beginning of the 1st stage? The first stage seems pointless since the trigger resets essentially to the beginning of the 2nd stage.

For bullseye competition I can explain exactly why a fully adjustable 2 stage trigger is beneficial, but I don't understand how the trigger I now possess provides any benefit over a single stage trigger. Not looking to upset anyone with these questions/observations, I would really like to understand. Hope I explained myself well. Thanks!

If you want the best possible accuracy out of an AR that has a slow locktime you need to hold the trigger back after it breaks"follow through".
Most single stage AR triggers you can't do that, they will either follow the carrier forward and you get a light strike where you must manually clear and recharge and others will double or triple if you try to use a good trigger follow through. With the SSA-E you can use it to get good accuracy or if doing double taps or controlled pairs or triples I don't even feel the trigger.
ETA- The SSA version will have creep in the second stage, they say they designed it that way. I would not buy the SSA model, the SSA-E is a much better trigger. It's all personal preference but I don't like the Geissele triggers that were designed with creep built in.
The 2 stage triggers also act as a safety or helps prevent accidental discharges.
A lot of guys that have come over from shooting bolt guns all their life hate 2 stage triggers but the Geissele National Match and the SSA-E is all I use when shooting for accuracy.

 

[BCP]

All.
I searched the forum and couldn't find a thread that directly addresses my questions regarding trigger type.
I'll start by explaining my history with a 2 stage trigger. For years while shooting bullseye competitively I used a Hammerli 208S pistol. The 208S has a $2000 trigger inside a $500 gun. The gun was nice and accurate. But, the trigger was a work of art. Both trigger stages were adjustable for weight and sear engagement, at least perceived movement during the first stage since the sear isn't moving at that point. I would adjust the trigger to feel like a long, smooth roll with no perceptible change when transitioning into the 2nd stage.
Now that I am in possession of my first AR I question the trigger, it was assembled with a Geissele SSA-E 2 stage trigger. TBH, I had no idea what that would feel like. The 1st stage is pretty light with a lot of movement before hitting the 2nd stage. Once the trigger is at the 2nd stage it feels like 3 lbs or so in weight and is very crisp. I dry fired the gun repeatedly to get a feel for this trigger. When the trigger resets it's just forward of the 2nd stage, very little light movement rearward is required before hitting the wall again at the 2nd stage, which finishes again with a crisp pull.

My questions are:
1- What's the purpose in a 2 stage like this? To me this feels like a 1911 with A LOT of pre-travel before hitting the wall.
2- Shouldn't the trigger reset all the way to the beginning of the 1st stage? The first stage seems pointless since the trigger resets essentially to the beginning of the 2nd stage.

For bullseye competition I can explain exactly why a fully adjustable 2 stage trigger is beneficial, but I don't understand how the trigger I now possess provides any benefit over a single stage trigger. Not looking to upset anyone with these questions/observations, I would really like to understand. Hope I explained myself well. Thanks!

4.5LBs is a requirement for NM triggers in service rifle

I prefer a 2 stage for target shooting and a 3.5LB single stage for plinking and varmint shooting. 308 ARs I always do the 2 stage because it feels more controllable to me. YMMV.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

If you want the best possible accuracy out of an AR that has a slow locktime you need to hold the trigger back after it breaks"follow through".
Most single stage AR triggers you can't do that, they will either follow the carrier forward and you get a light strike where you must manually clear and recharge and others will double or triple if you try to use a good trigger follow through.

I too hold the trigger to the rear when shooting groups. Over a dozen different single stage triggers and I have yet to have the problem you describe.

 

[FredHammer]

If you want the best possible accuracy out of an AR that has a slow locktime you need to hold the trigger back after it breaks"follow through".
Most single stage AR triggers you can't do that, they will either follow the carrier forward and you get a light strike where you must manually clear and recharge and others will double or triple if you try to use a good trigger follow through. With the SSA-E you can use it to get good accuracy or if doing double taps or controlled pairs or triples I don't even feel the trigger.
The 2 stage triggers also act as a safety or helps prevent accidental discharges.
A lot of guys that have come over from shooting bolt guns all their life hate 2 stage triggers but Geissele is all I use, DMRs and SSA-E(close to a non adjustable DMR).

Installed a lot of ALG ACT are single stage triggers and the reset was the fucking bomb for hammer strings. Some dudes thought I had a full auto.

I'm in T&E of a TT Diamond AR and no problems so far.

What single stage triggers did you have problems with?

 

[CK1.0]

To me, with a 2-stage trigger, the separate stages seem sort of like a separator/divider, sort of like a built-in additional safety measure more so than anything else.

While I liked them at first, once I started using good/light single-stage triggers I grew to dislike the 2-stage type.

 

[hlee]

Installed a lot of ALG ACT are single stage triggers and the reset was the fucking bomb for hammer strings. Some dudes thought I had a full auto.

I'm in T&E of a TT Diamond AR and no problems so far.

What single stage triggers did you have problems with?

A timney Calvin elite can be problematic in large frame ar rifles shot by people that want to feather the trigger instead of pinning it back. Lots of prs shooters have HORRID trigger follow through- a function of many of them shooting sub 1 lb triggers. Instead of press, break, freeze; they go press, break, fling the finger off the trigger like the damned thing is a full auto and they’re tryng to shoot singles. If this is your idea of trigger control, a light weight single stage trigger is easy to inadvertently double.

 

[Constructor]

Most of what I see is guys getting DQed at 3 gun events for doubling, some were banned from the range for good. The original Timney springs weren't strong enough to set off CCI 41primers. 10 years later I tried 2 Rise triggers and both failed in less than 100 shots.
I'm satisfied with the 14 Geissele triggers I have.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

10 years later I tried 2 Rise triggers and both failed in less than 100 shots.

That doesn't surprise me. I often wonder how Rise is still in business. Are there any reputable single stage triggers you've seen that won't allow holding the trigger to the rear?

 

[BCP]

I have a rise trigger in one of my rifles, no issues, CMC is better though.

 

[msgriff]

Does all that transfer to the Triggertech single stage, or have they managed to overcome those hurdles?

I have seen a fair number of trigger test charts, but most only test around 10 cycles. It would be nice to see testing data in the hundreds of cycles. I think that the higher end trigger manufacturers are aware of the single stage issues, including repeatability, and have addressed those, but I have no data to back that up.

 

[CK1.0]

As far as AR trigger snobbery goes, it depends if one is just going off what one is used to and comfortable with rather then them having real experience with what else is out there that might be different/better.

From my point of view, none of the Giesselle triggers even belong in the "good AR trigger" conversation. Not everybody, but I think most guys just buy them because Garand Thumb likes them (and they like Garand Thunb), or because they don't know any better and read they were good on some stupid Tactical Timmy forum.

Life is short, try a Hiperfire Hipertouch series or maybe the new TriggerTech, live a little.

 

[JerkyFreak]

Having used both, I would say that for triggers set lighter than a pound, single-stage is the way to go. Any heavier than a pound two-stage works better.

 

[Constructor]

Having used both, I would say that for triggers set lighter than a pound, single-stage is the way to go. Any heavier than a pound two-stage works better.

What AR triggers break at under 1 lb?

 

[Basher]

In a gas gun? Never heard of a trigger that light.

This is me, just now realizing as I type this post, that this was posted in the semi rifles specific subforum lol. I was talking very generally regarding all rifle types, so that’s 100% my bad!

 

[TonyTheTiger]

This is me, just now realizing as I type this post, that this was posted in the semi rifles specific subforum lol. I was talking very generally regarding all rifle types, so that’s 100% my bad!

Pretty sure JerkyFreak above did the same thing.

 

[hlee]

What AR triggers break at under 1 lb?

Jard makes a set trigger that breaks at 13 oz, when set...

Beyond that?

There's probably some guy wearing a camo trucker hat and a flannel shirt, currently "stoning" his mil spec trigger right now.

 

[kthomas]

Frank often says it that a 2-stage lets you “marry up to the trigger” before the shot. Some if these super light single stage triggers barely let you get your finger on the trigger before they break, which can make applying the fundamentals tricky. A 2-stage lets you get positive control of the trigger all the way up to the wall of the 2nd stage, so you know exactly when it will break. Throw in the safety aspect and I find them to be an ideal setup.

Not that you can’t have a safe, light, and effective single stage, lots of them are out there. I have and can use both, but highly prefer a good 2-stage. Nobody currently makes a good field-grade 2-stage for the M70/FNH SPR, so I run that as a single for now until I can track down a used CG Xtreme/XTSP 2-stage.

I have come to really prefer 2 stages over single stage triggers.

I find I get much more control over a 2 stage trigger. I really like the process of taking up the 1st stage and coming up to that 2nd stage wall, when preparing for the shot. That process makes me a more consistent shooter.

You can certainly be precise with a single stage trigger, but the process of going through a 2 stage trigger works better for ME.

 

[PrimoLuvr]

I have come to really prefer 2 stages over single stage triggers.

I find I get much more control over a 2 stage trigger. I really like the process of taking up the 1st stage and coming up to that 2nd stage wall, when preparing for the shot. That process makes me a more consistent shooter.

You can certainly be precise with a single stage trigger, but the process of going through a 2 stage trigger works better for ME.

I'm not trying to be rude with this response...

But, that's what I'm having an issue with on this. The process you described above is only applicable on the first shot, at least on my SSA-E trigger. My SSA-E resets at the very end of the 1st stage, very little movement is required before hitting the 2nd stage with a followup shot. I guess I could completely release the trigger and restart the 1st stage but that's pointless. Do all 2 stage triggers operate like this?

 

[hlee]

I'm not trying to be rude with this response...

But, that's what I'm having an issue with on this. The process you described above is only applicable on the first shot, at least on my SSA-E trigger. My SSA-E resets at the very end of the 1st stage, very little movement is required before hitting the 2nd stage with a followup shot. I guess I could completely release the trigger and restart the 1st stage but that's pointless. Do all 2 stage triggers operate like this?

TL : DR- You might be happier with a Geissele 3 gun trigger, which (my minimal fingering of one in a store suggests) operates more similarly to your description of your bullseye trigger.

I’m not terribly surprised that you’re having issues with the expected function of a 2 stage ar15 trigger. Your description of how you had your bullseye pistol set up sounds a lot like how I’ve heard a nice revolver trigger described.

Further, you described the function of a 2 stage ar15 trigger to be similar to a 1911 trigger with a lot of pre travel.

Finally, you said you can describe why a long roll with no perceptible transition into the second stage is beneficial for bullseye competition. Perhaps you can expound on the benefits of a trigger set up as you described.

You trigger sounds like running walking, blindfolded, up a hill until the ground falls away and you fall off a cliff. Subsequent shots transport you back to the bottom of the hill.

(This sounds like the age old “let the shot surprise you” that all of our fathers drilled into us at a young age. Though, I will concede that lots of practice would instill an implicit understanding of when the shot will break.)

A typical 2 stage ar15 trigger is more like running walking up a hill, blindfolded, until you run into a door. You have the option to blast through the door, or pause. Once the door is open, you fall off the cliff. But, upon subsequent shots, you are transported back to that door. You can push through again, or roll back down the hill. (Doors are typically set in walls, so the metaphor holds. )

In this example, “going through the door” is an overt decision. We know when the shot will break, because we add conscious effort to defeat the 2nd stage.

 

[kthomas]

I'm not trying to be rude with this response...

But, that's what I'm having an issue with on this. The process you described above is only applicable on the first shot, at least on my SSA-E trigger. My SSA-E resets at the very end of the 1st stage, very little movement is required before hitting the 2nd stage with a followup shot. I guess I could completely release the trigger and restart the 1st stage but that's pointless. Do all 2 stage triggers operate like this?

Not rude at all.

Let me try to understand your situation.

So the trigger resets right before the 2nd stage? So when you shoot, you depress the trigger until it resets, and your basically back to that 2nd stage right away, correct?

The majority of my shooting is with my bolt gun, using Tacsport 2 stage triggers. So different scenario from what you describe. Every shot it's the same sequence to the trigger.

 

[PrimoLuvr]

Not rude at all.

Let me try to understand your situation.

So the trigger resets right before the 2nd stage? So when you shoot, you depress the trigger until it resets, and your basically back to that 2nd stage right away, correct?

The majority of my shooting is with my bolt gun, using Tacsport 2 stage triggers. So different scenario from what you describe. Every shot it's the same sequence to the trigger.

Yes, due to being a bolt gun you've removed your hand from the trigger. With the AR your finger doesn't leave the trigger for followup shots.

 

[kthomas]

Yes, due to being a bolt gun you've removed your hand from the trigger. With the AR your finger doesn't leave the trigger for followup shots.

Ok I'm tracking.

I'm not a huge semi guy, even though I have a few. I'll let others that are more semi focused than I tackle this one.

 

[Tokay444]

The 208S trigger sounds like a single stage with a lot of creep.

 

[JerkyFreak]

Pretty sure JerkyFreak above did the same thing.

Yes I did and I hang my head in shame for my lack of attention. Bit of cognitive dissonance on my part.

Truth be told, I've never handled a semi-auto rifle that had a single stage trigger. Did not know those existed. For the life of me I cannot see any advantage; not like AR's are precision instruments.

 

[PrimoLuvr]

TL : DR- You might be happier with a Geissele 3 gun trigger, which (my minimal fingering of one in a store suggests) operates more similarly to your description of your bullseye trigger.

I’m not terribly surprised that you’re having issues with the expected function of a 2 stage ar15 trigger. Your description of how you had your bullseye pistol set up sounds a lot like how I’ve heard a nice revolver trigger described.

Further, you described the function of a 2 stage ar15 trigger to be similar to a 1911 trigger with a lot of pre travel.

Finally, you said you can describe why a long roll with no perceptible transition into the second stage is beneficial for bullseye competition. Perhaps you can expound on the benefits of a trigger set up as you described.

You trigger sounds like running, blindfolded, up a hill until the ground falls away and you fall off a cliff. Subsequent shots transport you back to the bottom of the hill.

(This sounds like the age old “let the shot surprise you” that all of our fathers drilled into us at a young age. Though, I will concede that lots of practice would instill an implicit understanding of when the shot will break.)

A typical 2 stage ar15 trigger is more like running up a hill, blindfolded, until you run into a door. You have the option to blast through the door, or pause. Once the door is open, you fall off the cliff. But, upon subsequent shots, you are transported back to that door. You can push through again, or roll back down the hill. (Doors are typically set in walls, so the metaphor holds. )

In this example, “going through the door” is an overt decision. We know when the shot will break, because we add conscious effort to defeat the 2nd stage.

You've dug into exactly what I'm asking, thank you for taking the time to do that... I'll respond in the same order that you did.

My experience with a 2 stage trigger previously was nothing like this SSA-E. I wasn't expecting the same feel but this is far from what I thought a 2 stage trigger would be. Considering that the 1st stage is essentially eliminated with followup shots, where the trigger is returned only to the reset point, I don't see the purpose behind having 2 distinct stages. Regarding revolvers, I LOVE a smooth DA revolver trigger pull. I'll explain why below.

When comparing an AR 2 stage to a 1911 the 1st stage is for me very light, like takeup in a 1911. When resetting the trigger on a 1911 for subsequent shots the takeup is gone, that's what this 2 stage AR trigger feels like as well just a little heavier.

Bullseye is a game of marksmanship, it's getting a solid body position and engaging the target with a pistol one-handed. This type of shooting is very difficult, most people have a lot of 'wobble' with their sight picture to overcome. I have found with very smooth roll triggers, where the trigger is actually moving rearward, and you can feel the sear moving over the hammer hooks, that the 'wobble' in my sights reduces and the movement slows down. I'm unable to make that same thing happen with a crisply breaking trigger. The roll must be smooth as any grittiness will stop the movement or cause the sight(s) to jump on the target. The other benefit to a roll trigger is it breaks at a certain position. A bullseye match goes all day, it can be very tiring. Halfway through the day my finger loses its sensitivity to trigger weight. When I used to shoot a crisp trigger followup shots took longer because my tired finger didn't want to keep the trigger moving rearward. With a roll trigger the hammer will release at a certain position, so even though you're tired you just have to get the trigger moving and keep it moving until it breaks. I was much more consistent this way. With respect to revolvers, a long rolling 1911 trigger feels like a smooth DA revolver just not nearly as long.

I kinda expect someone to ask why I want an AR trigger to feel like my 1911s? My carry gun, and previous carry guns, have this same type of trigger pull. I learned how to use this type of trigger for defensive shooting as well as competition.

Love your description of the AR 2 stage trigger, that was entertaining and true.

 

[PrimoLuvr]

The 208S trigger sounds like a single stage with a lot of creep.

That's how a lot of bullseye shooters try to describe a roll trigger. But creep usually infers that the movement hits some bumps in the road, a good roll will be perfectly smooth from start to finish.

 

[Tokay444]

That’s counter to any 2 stage trigger I’ve ever shot. Bolt or AR.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Truth be told, I've never handled a semi-auto rifle that had a single stage trigger. Did not know those existed. For the life of me I cannot see any advantage; not like AR's are precision instruments.

Speed bro. Nasty dirty speed. I know a lot of people that can rip .09-.12 second splits with an AR, and almost none of them can do it with a 2 stage. The reset is almost always longer.

 

[TimK]

I have many of the triggers in the Geissele line up. When I'm shooting with an SSA-E, for example, I'm most often sending one shot at a target and then transitioning to the next, which for me necessitates dialing the scope. As a result, I get the first stage every shot. If I'm shooting repeatedly at the same target, like you I just let the trigger back to reset and not all the way forward. My brain integrates that pretty well, and I don't miss the first stage, I just treat it like I already pulled through it.

Their national match trigger behaves exactly like the others when set up correctly, you just have control over the pull weights. I have two of those, and they are my hands-down favorites for precision shooting. My long range dedicated rifles have NM triggers. For guns that might be used for 3 gun type shooting or for defensive or hunting use, I primarily run the SSA-E or the SD-E. I do have several JP single stage triggers that came with rifles from them, and I have them in dedicate up-close guns. I've swapped them around different rifles over the years, and I've come to the conclusion that I can function just fine with any of them. For precision shooting, I just prefer the 2 stage concept so I can have lighter pull with some additional margin of safety and good reliability.

I have 2 Super 3 Gun triggers, and I can't figure out why I bought the second one. I can not wrap my head the complete lack of a wall. Just doesn't work for me (old guy, old habits, I guess). I generally have excellent trigger discipline in the sense that I trap it back and control the reset. I have to concentrate REALLY hard to make that work with the S3G, and even with that I've had a couple doubles. Frustrating since I'm working so hard to hold that bitch back. All that said, the S3G sounds very similar to the pistol trigger you described. Might be worth a try.