Gunsmithing Sniper's Hide visits Bartlein Barrels Part One: Barrel Break In

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Minuteman
    • Apr 12, 2001
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    #1
    Last week, we were given exclusive behind the scenes access at Bartlein Barrels.

    We traveled north with George Gardner and spent the better part of the week inside the Bartlein Barrel Shop getting an in-depth education on their processes, what they do to put the magic in. Tracy Bartlein & Co let us film them at each stage of the process and we happy to bring you the first part in our multi part series.

    Bartlein Barrels, Sniper's Hide Talks Barrel Break In - YouTube

    We sat down with Brian and Frank to talk barrel break in, as well as cleaning. Here are some of their insights.
     
    #9
    Part of the context, which was talked about off camera was mainly at distance. As in shooting a cold bore at 1000 yards as an example, where 30-40fps would make a noticeable difference, yet at 100 yards you would not see the change in POA/POI due to a difference in MV.

    We also had a very good discussion on bullet variations being blamed on barrels, how certain lots of bullets can cause issues that are sometimes attributed to the barrel.

    I am not sure, as I haven't reviewed all the footage, but the discussion on the advances in Gain Twist Barrels was really awesome. I am 99% I didn't get Tracy talking about the limitations the old machines had with regards to Gain Twist Barrels, which is why they didn't work as advertised... Until Bartlein who has state of the art computer controlled machines. They can rifle a gain twist barrel, 1st in the correct direction (old geared machines did not) and they can make it any variation they want to 4 decimal places. So if you want a 13.7250 to 10.2615 they can do, to include making it a left hand twist. I will have some on the subject, but we discussed so much more.

    But some of the points of interest,

    The Tool used to cut and rifle
    The Machines, (Purpose Built State of the Art)
    Pre Lapping / Finish Lapping
    Rifling / Gain Twist / Cutting Direction

    All will have some light shone on them here.
     
    #10
    Lowlight said:
    They can rifle a gain twist barrel, 1st in the correct direction (old geared machines did not) and they can make it any variation they want to 4 decimal places. So if you want a 13.7250 to 10.2615 they can do, to include making it a left hand twist.
    Click to expand...

    Why is it important for it to be a left hand twist?
     
    #12
    It's not important, that is not what I said, however if you look back, you'll see most of the older barrel makers considered a Left Hand Twist Optimal for a Right Handed Shooter as well as a shooter in the Northern Hemisphere.

    If we really wanted to solve any ill effects from Spin Drift and Coriolis, all we need to do is to use a Left Hand Twist Barrel, especially at ELR Distances. A left hand spin will use any Spin Drift to all but cancel out the long distance effects of Coriolis. So instead of trying to calculate the various drifts, we'd just neutralize them.

    On top of that, it was thought that that a right handed shooter should be using a left hand twist to keep the rifle recoiling towards our center, and not away from us. That the recoil pulse becomes much easier to handle when it moves towards our body rather than away from it.

    The fact they can change the tool to a left hand hook and then just push a button on the computer screen, (see this in the last 1 minute of the video) means much more flexibility as well as accuracy in how they can make their barrels.
     
    #14
    Lowlight said:
    It's not important, that is not what I said, however if you look back, you'll see most of the older barrel makers considered a Left Hand Twist Optimal for a Right Handed Shooter as well as a shooter in the Northern Hemisphere.

    If we really wanted to solve any ill effects from Spin Drift and Coriolis, all we need to do is to use a Left Hand Twist Barrel, especially at ELR Distances. A left hand spin will use any Spin Drift to all but cancel out the long distance effects of Coriolis. So instead of trying to calculate the various drifts, we'd just neutralize them.

    On top of that, it was thought that that a right handed shooter should be using a left hand twist to keep the rifle recoiling towards our center, and not away from us. That the recoil pulse becomes much easier to handle when it moves towards our body rather than away from it.

    The fact they can change the tool to a left hand hook and then just push a button on the computer screen, (see this in the last 1 minute of the video) means much more flexibility as well as accuracy in how they can make their barrels.
    Click to expand...

    Thank you! That just cleared the cob webs out for me!


    Trauma1
     
    #17
    Lowlight said:
    It's not important, that is not what I said, however if you look back, you'll see most of the older barrel makers considered a Left Hand Twist Optimal for a Right Handed Shooter as well as a shooter in the Northern Hemisphere.

    If we really wanted to solve any ill effects from Spin Drift and Coriolis, all we need to do is to use a Left Hand Twist Barrel, especially at ELR Distances. A left hand spin will use any Spin Drift to all but cancel out the long distance effects of Coriolis. So instead of trying to calculate the various drifts, we'd just neutralize them.

    On top of that, it was thought that that a right handed shooter should be using a left hand twist to keep the rifle recoiling towards our center, and not away from us. That the recoil pulse becomes much easier to handle when it moves towards our body rather than away from it.

    The fact they can change the tool to a left hand hook and then just push a button on the computer screen, (see this in the last 1 minute of the video) means much more flexibility as well as accuracy in how they can make their barrels.
    Click to expand...





    So why not just make all Northern hemisphere destined barrels this way (which I gotta think is about 99.99% of any US based barrel maker's customer base)
     
    #21
    LongRifles said:
    So why not just make all Northern hemisphere destined barrels this way (which I gotta think is about 99.99% of any US based barrel maker's customer base)
    Click to expand...

    Take a look at all the old British Enfield .303 rifles. All left hand twist. Also the standard was 5 groove for most of them as well.

    Also the 1917 Enfields in .30-06 are left hand twist as well.

    Why and when the change to right hand twist? Don't know....well before my time. I know the leader bars for example on the old P&W rifling machines are for right hand twists.

    I do know from being left handed and shooting left hand twist barrels and right hand twist barrels especially on guns with more recoil the RH twist barrels the gun torques into me. The LH twist the gun torques away from me.

    All of Pope's barrels were LH twist. Remember the old Schuetzenfest rifles were in calibers like .32-40, .38-55, .40-63 etc... a light bullet was 200gr and depending on caliber over 300gr. Pope said he would never make a RH twist barrel. He said the Southpaws could suffer as there were not enough of them as shooters for him to justify making a RH twist barrel. Again with those big heavy bullets and the guns being in the weight range of around 9-12lbs. on average he said the left hand twist the gun torqued into the shooter and the shooter could control/handle the gun better.

    We've also made some LH twist barrels for .30BR guys and with they're stock set up and the BR style front rests they said the guns track better in the rests and helps the shooter stay on target better as a result.

    It all makes sense but with industry standard being RH twist we do the RH twist as a standard.

    I'm doing another rebuild on a couple of Win. 52's. All will be LH hand twist. My first one is shooting great and I wanted to duplicate my Ballard Rigby 6 1/2 rifle which was rebarreled by Pope-Stevens around 1905 or so. That one is a 8 groove, LH, gain twist and wanted to do more testing etc....so using the 52's. Instead of using my Ballard for testing.

    Later, Frank
     
    #24
    Turd,

    As I noted Mark Chanlynn continues to use left hand twist barrels, I know many rifles that have left hand twist barrels built on them, I have a Chanlynn from Bighorn Arms that is a left hand twist... guess what it has never unscrewed.

    Pretty sure we have ways to prevent that part from happening, sounds more like idiots trying to outsmart someone pretending it might, so they turn things around.
     
    #25
    Geno,

    We went fishing with DJ who works for Bartlein out of Port Washington

    10414512_10152301689603510_6659338141582611581_n.jpg


    10552405_10152301689543510_6120614701255648018_n.jpg
     
    #29
    Turd in the Pool said:
    Interesting take Mr Green. Pretty sound logic. I suspect the fact that a right hand twist would tend to keep the barrel tight as opposed to making it unscrew figures in there somewhere as well ;-)
    Click to expand...

    I've seen RH twist barrels come loose on rifles. So I don't think the LH vs. RH twist has anything to do with it.

    Years ago my buddy bought my 629 S&W with the unfluted cylinder. His .44mag. loads where so hot that the barrel started to unscrew from the frame. I cannot explain it but I seen it. Had to send it back to S&W. That was a RH twist barrel also.

    You don't have to put 200 ft. lbs. on it but cannot use 20 ft. lbs. either!

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels
     
    #32
    I don't argue with any methods bartlien uses. I've bought 5 rifles with their bbls in them in the last few years and all are awesome. Cold bore and clean cold bore are just about myth status on them as far as I'm concerned. My 6.5 cm has 2k rounds in it and has been cleaned twice. Once at 1k and the second time just a little while back when k was going away for a long time. Has never mattered. The 308 gap built a week or so for me will get the same no break in procedure as the last Ines and is showing ti be an extremely accurate rifle. .25 moa or lessfor sure. And speeds are great from them as well. It is THE top bbl maker in my book and I won't even think about changing. I had good luck from my Kriegers but I have found my company ti support at this time.

    Thanks for the video
     
    #33
    I have two 6ppc rifle right now with bartlein barrels and both will hit point of aim first shot clean and cold. Makes no difference what so ever. I always shoot a fouler, as that seems to be the norm, but I certainly don't have to. Lee

    PS Its fair for me to say, my K barrels are the same way.
     
    #35
    would using a lh rifling cause a need for a different style cut on the reamer? thinking it may want to grab the rifling.
    never seen a reamer used, so this could be a moot point.
     
    #36
    I believe bartlein is definitely onto a ground breaking thing with gaintwist barrels, i think the benefits of a gaintwist barrel are drastic and if anyone can work out the kinks in getting it right they will. Not to take away from the other good barrel makers but I believe they are all running on the theory "if it isnt broke, dont fix it" and have no interest in trying to make them better. Bartlein seems to not be afraid of trying something new and have a genuine interest into building a better barrel.

    And Im not sure about this but I read somewhere that barrels are historically made in RH twist because that is what John Browning thought it should be. I cant remember where I read it but I know all the original 1911 prototypes started with LH twist barrels and he changed them to RH twist. He was left handed and It probably shot better for him...lol.
     
    #37
    I am a firm believer is using a Gain Twist. I have several from Bartlein and because of their machines, they have the ability to do it right, the only question is, "to what degree" ?

    They can do any combination of gain from subtle to extreme. And they are finding the subtle gains are working very, very good. All the top Benchrest shooters are using Gain Twists from them.

    The subtle gain twist have absolutely no down side (other than machining which Bartlein has overcome) and all the makings of a better solution to throwing a bullet downrange. The constant increase in pressure moving forward, the slow increase in spin which doesn't overly deform the jackets, the movement in the direction of the muzzle ... it's a recipe for success in my mind.

    Lastly, to make the barrels a left hand twist it is nothing more than changing the cutting tool head from a right hook to a left, very simple process and then hitting the button on the machine. Done.
     
    #39
    sakobob said:
    would using a lh rifling cause a need for a different style cut on the reamer? thinking it may want to grab the rifling.
    never seen a reamer used, so this could be a moot point.
    Click to expand...

    Reaming the bore if that's what you mean.....then doing a left hand twist it's got nothing to do with it. We bore ream and then prelap the barrel before rifling. Rifling the cutting tool just cuts the grooves. It doesn't touch the top of the bore/lands at all.

    To make LH rifling it just means we have to make a different tool but nothing to do with the bore.

    I've got two rimfire barrels with LH twist and two more in the works on the next run of RF's. Whenever that will be LOL!

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels
     
    #40
    The true benefits from a gain twist barrel are only seen when the twist starts at zero and is increased to whatever it needs to be to stabilize the bullet. I believe they will get this completely worked out before long. The benchrest shooters that I know who are using or have tried these barrels are not going that far. They are only using a slight bit of gain in the barrel. But if you go from say zero twist for first 6 inches and then slowly twist up for next 6 inches and then have your max twist for the last 6 inches then you would see immense gains in the added velocities alone, not to mention a much more linear pressure curve, then add the decreased damage to the jacket and you will truly see the gains across the board. I have been pushing for this for a while now and think Bartlein will be the ones who can produce it correctly soon.
     
    #41
    Frank Green said:
    Reaming the bore if that's what you mean.....then doing a left hand twist it's got nothing to do with it. We bore ream and then prelap the barrel before rifling. Rifling the cutting tool just cuts the grooves. It doesn't touch the top of the bore/lands at all.

    To make LH rifling it just means we have to make a different tool but nothing to do with the bore.

    I've got two rimfire barrels with LH twist and two more in the works on the next run of RF's. Whenever that will be LOL!

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels
    Click to expand...

    Frank, I think that fellow was referring to chamber reaming. Some chamber reamers and many throating reamers have spiraled flutes - probably with intent to cut on RH twist barrels.

    Have an opinion?

    In my not-so-experienced layman's opinion, I'd think the rate of twist of rifling is so minor (1:7 being a super fast rifling twist), you could all but assume the lands are actually straight when considering the approach of reamer-to-land as the leade is cut.

    But what do I know?
     
    Last edited:
    #42
    NXS338 said:
    The true benefits from a gain twist barrel are only seen when the twist starts at zero and is increased to whatever it needs to be to stabilize the bullet. I believe they will get this completely worked out before long. The benchrest shooters that I know who are using or have tried these barrels are not going that far. They are only using a slight bit of gain in the barrel. But if you go from say zero twist for first 6 inches and then slowly twist up for next 6 inches and then have your max twist for the last 6 inches then you would see immense gains in the added velocities alone, not to mention a much more linear pressure curve, then add the decreased damage to the jacket and you will truly see the gains across the board. I have been pushing for this for a while now and think Bartlein will be the ones who can produce it correctly soon.
    Click to expand...

    I'd certainly like to see this tested, but my premonition is the advantage wouldn't be nearly as drastic as you suggest.

    Also, I wouldn't think it ideal to stop the gaining of rate of twist. I think the idea is to keep the bullet driven up against just one side of each land...no "coasting" such that the bullet ends up riding against the backside of the next land over. I fully admit I could be 100% wrong on this.
     
    #44
    Frank Green said:
    I've seen RH twist barrels come loose on rifles. So I don't think the LH vs. RH twist has anything to do with it.

    Years ago my buddy bought my 629 S&W with the unfluted cylinder. His .44mag. loads where so hot that the barrel started to unscrew from the frame. I cannot explain it but I seen it. Had to send it back to S&W. That was a RH twist barrel also.

    You don't have to put 200 ft. lbs. on it but cannot use 20 ft. lbs. either!

    Later, Frank
    Bartlein Barrels
    Click to expand...


    I'm willing to buy some bs but not much and I'm not buying this;-) Granted the bullet is trying to pull the bbl away from the receiver (or the frame in the case of the 629) but it is also causing torque. I think Frank (LL) mentioned it turning the rifle to or away from your body. I don't care what anyone says. RH twist on a RH thread can only cause it to get tighter. I often question conventional wisdom but this is one issue I can't argue.
    Seems like a redundancy but when Jeep made my Deuce for the Army, they put LH threaded wheel lugs on the left side. I don't think it was because the grunt manual said left side LH thread, right side RH thread;-)

    NXS 338, good points. I only have to add that polygonal rifling is the only way to TRULY get there. We've got a long way to go (machine wise) accomplish that.
     
    #45
    @Turd in the Pool,

    spare us your half assed wisdom, seen RH twist barrels come loose, had one happen at the SHC years back, a 7WSM. So clearly your rule of thumb has no merit. There is also an instance in one of the TR threads with a loose barrel from them.

    As noted which you conveniently ignored, as you side show types tend to do, is Mark Chanlynn barrels which are left twist. Several use them without issue. Including smiths on this site. So again please spare us your clueless ramblings.

    Good work done by competent smiths, left or right will stay on. A 175gr bullet is not unscrewing a 9LBS barrel torqued to 100ft lbs... Your logic makes less sense than you're trying to poke a hole in. In fact I would say, it's guys like you that cause more Bullshit than you purport to point out. Last time I checked, every car on the street has the same thread on both sides, how do we avoid dodging all the cars with loose lug nuts. Maybe call NASCAR and tell them what will happen at 200MPH.
     
    #46
    Steampunk what???? Come on Frank. You know better. It's easy to dismiss my lack of logic. Tell us why a Baldor buffer/grinder has a LH thread on the left and a RH on the right side of the shaft.

    I know you weren't a grunt so you wouldn't know but I do occasionally take my Deuce on the road and it has opposing threads on the lugs. Look out!

    As far as this pertaining to guns, I will say it again, I don't care what you or anybody says. A RH twist bbl will only tighten a RH threaded junction. If this were not true you'd see barrels unscrew at least once at every match or range trip;-) Not years back with 1 WSM.

    NASCAR knows that the opposing threads is redundant. Knowing that the wheels will only be on there for a few miles. Unlike a rifle that will see a few K rounds if it's lucky;-)

    Go ahead and hammer down. Might as well make the ban for life. I sure miss Nobody;-) At least he was fun.
     
    #47
    Lowlight said:
    @Turd in the Pool,

    spare us your half assed wisdom, seen RH twist barrels come loose, had one happen at the SHC years back, a 7WSM. So clearly your rule of thumb has no merit. There is also an instance in one of the TR threads with a loose barrel from them.

    As noted which you conveniently ignored, as you side show types tend to do, is Mark Chanlynn barrels which are left twist. Several use them without issue. Including smiths on this site. So again please spare us your clueless ramblings.

    Good work done by competent smiths, left or right will stay on. A 175gr bullet is not unscrewing a 9LBS barrel torqued to 100ft lbs... Your logic makes less sense than you're trying to poke a hole in. In fact I would say, it's guys like you that cause more Bullshit than you purport to point out. Last time I checked, every car on the street has the same thread on both sides, how do we avoid dodging all the cars with loose lug nuts. Maybe call NASCAR and tell them what will happen at 200MPH.
    Click to expand...

    I liked reading lowlights posts before. I like reading them even more now. All of that aside, great info.
     
    #48
    I'll be happy to give you a permanent ban, especially since you continue to ignore the obvious.

    Bullets are only torquing for milliseconds and in a circle, I have left have twist barrels, it has never come loose.

    And I was a grunt, what your are describing is redundancy, a simple safety net and not a fact of the matter, not everything that twist will unscrew. As been noted, vibration and sustainment are more so the issue. My weed whacker has an opposite screw on the bottom, it's sustains a spin, it's not a millisecond of force. A truck is not a bullet, and you ignore cars.

    10,000 milliseconds of pressure over the life of a barrel by a light bullet against 100ft pounds is not gonna do it.
     
    #50
    Lowlight said:
    I'll be happy to give you a permanent ban, especially since you continue to ignore the obvious.

    Bullets are only torquing for milliseconds and in a circle, I have left have twist barrels, it has never come loose.

    And I was a grunt, what your are describing is redundancy, a simple safety net and not a fact of the matter, not everything that twist will unscrew. As been noted, vibration and sustainment are more so the issue. My weed whacker has an opposite screw on the bottom, it's sustains a spin, it's not a millisecond of force. A truck is not a bullet, and you ignore cars.

    10,000 milliseconds of pressure over the life of a barrel by a light bullet against 100ft pounds is not gonna do it.
    Click to expand...

    OK fine;-) Milliseconds have nothing to do with it. Repeated hammering is the key.
     
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