So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

L

Lofty

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 14, 2008
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Lenexa KS
#1
.........why not just roll my own?

Ive been looking at a GAP-10 or maybe a Larue OBR. With how tight a group these things are shooting, theres almost no point in a .308 bolt gun anymore. Might as well reserve the bolt gun for bigger cartridges.

Well I always just build my own AR-15's. I have an SPR styled 18 inch I put together that shoots ragged little bug holes all day with factory match ammo.

So Im wondering why not just build my own AR-10? Whats the advantage of going with a fully built AR styled rifle from GAP or Larue? I mean theres no real gunsmithing, just parts assembly. Pick the right barrel, bolt carrier group and trigger and the gun will perform with good ammo right?

Aside from proper parts selection, does GAP do anything special to make their AR-10's as accurate as they are?

Im just thinking I could probably save some money, save the excise tax and build just as functional and accurate an AR-10.


Am I missing something? Would I be better off just calling GAP?
 
#3
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

The biggest difference would be the barrel. When I build a precision AR15/10 I start with a custom cut-rifled barrel..mostly Rock Creek or Brux and I use a precision machined barrel extension and thread, chamber, and contour the barrel myself. If I didn't do the machine work I'd call up Brux and get a pre-chambered headspaced barrel from them and then go from there. Otherwise you're pretty correct, there is not a whole lot to put an AR together, but there are some little things in the assembly that can and do make a difference.
 
#4
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

Something I and another Hide member mentioned in another topic is a known, reputable built rifle will retain its value a lot better than a home built rifle.

While you're going to lose money regardless (if you decide to sell) a rifle from GAP, POF, LWRC, Noveske, etc. will hold its value and you'll get most of your money back when it sells.

In addition to that, you'll also be covered by a warranty for a period if time of something happens to malfunction.

Those are things to think about when contemplating whether to build or buy.
 
#5
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: msalm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The biggest difference would be the barrel. When I build a precision AR15/10 I start with a custom cut-rifled barrel..mostly Rock Creek or Brux and I use a precision machined barrel extension and thread, chamber, and contour the barrel myself. If I didn't do the machine work I'd call up Brux and get a pre-chambered headspaced barrel from them and then go from there. Otherwise you're pretty correct, there is not a whole lot to put an AR together, but there are some little things in the assembly that can and do make a difference. </div></div>


Good info.....I appreciate the feedback.

Killshot, I agree 100%. Homebuilts never retain their value the way a factory rifle does. The initial savings doesnt even offset the difference.

Im done selling guns though. For years Ive bought and flipped guns. No more. From now on if I buy it, Im keeping it.
 
#6
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

Although I don't own a GAP-10, $2760 for a PRS-equipped, Bartlein barreled 3/4 min AT LEAST gun from a builder like GA Precision is a deal, imo.

Well if you're not worried about selling it, build it yourself.

I bet you can keep it around two grand to assemble a nice 7.62 AR. Rock Creek/Bartlein bbl (~$400), nice trigger(~150), FF rail(~300), AR-10 upper (~200) and lower (~300), PRS if you like the Magpul stock (~220), BCG W/ CH (~200), etc. Just ballparkin it. Plus %20 for unforseen stuff should put you around two grand.

Of course, it is really cool to own and shoot custom built guns from nice builders.

~$2000 plus a lot of possible ass-pain, but you gain experience and knowledge

~$2760 for a sure thing, and the whole thing of standing in front of your gun case with a cold brewsky, thinking about how cool that GAP is and how cool you look shooting it

$.02
 
#7
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

I was contemplating the same thing last month but ended up pulling the trigger on a used GAP-10 . I could very well be wrong but besides the coolness factor I don't think a home rolled ar-10 will come close to a 3/8 moa that I have . If it were a ar-15 I'd say do it , but a ultra accurate .308 semi that's probably another story .
 
#8
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sithlord</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> . I could very well be wrong but besides the coolness factor I don't think a home rolled ar-10 will come close to a 3/8 moa that I have . If it were a ar-15 I'd say do it , but a ultra accurate .308 semi that's probably another story . </div></div>

Well you are. While GAP makes an excellent rifle. They don't have any magical proprietary fairy dust that makes their rifles shoot better. They simply use quality components and workmanship. But there is nothing preventing someone from building one that shoots just as well at home. IMHO there is no reason not build your own AR (large or small frame). With a small investment in tooling and some time you can have the exact rifle you want and you will have gained some very useful knowledge.
 
#9
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sithlord</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> . I could very well be wrong but besides the coolness factor I don't think a home rolled ar-10 will come close to a 3/8 moa that I have . If it were a ar-15 I'd say do it , but a ultra accurate .308 semi that's probably another story . </div></div>

Well you are. While GAP makes an excellent rifle. They don't have any magical proprietary fairy dust that makes their rifles shoot better. They simply use quality components and workmanship. But there is nothing preventing someone from building one that shoots just as well at home. IMHO there is no reason not build your own AR (large or small frame). With a small investment in tooling and some time you can have the exact rifle you want and you will have gained some very useful knowledge. </div></div>

Thats kinda the direction Im leaning in. I cant imagine what GAP can do to an AR-10 that I cant. I can understand a bolt action.....but a semi auto maybe not so much.


The only other thing Im thinking is maybe staying away from the larger frame and going with a Grendel. I have enough parts to build one right now laying around aside from a barrel. Now that Alexander arms released the rights on the Grendel Im hoping for some good barrel manufacturers stepping up.
 
#11
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who do you send it to when it fails to cycle properly? </div></div>

Send it back to yourself if it makes on feel better. Once you understand the AR design few thing require a smith, including the above mentioned failure.
 
#14
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who do you send it to when it fails to cycle properly? </div></div>

Why would it fail to cycle properly? Im not worried about that. I've built so many ARs I can't remember them all. Never had one that didn't run like a Swiss watch.

Reliability isn't my concern.

I was just wondering from those in the know if they knew of anything GAP and Larue were doing precision wise other than manufacturing or assembling quality parts.
 
#15
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

If you build, you run into two issues. One is logistically related, the other is cost related.
In terms of logistics, you need to select a .308 platform (AR10 or LR308), and then source your parts according to the platform. There is no industry standard specification for the .308 platform as a whole.
In terms of cost, you need to account for the added expense of tools. .308 ARs require specific tools for certain jobs. You can easily spend a good deal of money doing this, and if you don't use them to build more rifles, the overall cost savings of building your own may not total out to be any cost savings at all.
I recently priced out a build, and the cost was $2600. I then priced out what it would cost for a rifle from GAP and LaRue, and the extra cost was worth it in order to get the name and guarantee of the rifle maker. I like to consider myself a relatively accomplished armorer and builder, but I know that there is no way I can build a rifle with the equipment I currently have that can match the accuracy of the GAP-10 and OBR. I can build a rifle that will likely get .5MOA, but there are GAP-10s and OBRs pulling 0.3MOA. That's nuts. And worth the extra price and the hit to my personal pride in not building the rifle myself.
 
#16
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

Really?

Factory rifles fail all the time and they have more money and engineers than you do in your basement.

So your gun fails to work properly now what?

Is it the over size gas hole?
Is it the out of spec extension spring?
Is it the out of spec chamber?
Is it the out of spec bolt?
Is it the out of spec carrier?
Is it the undersized exhaust hole on the carrier?
Is it the out of spec feed ramp?
Is it the coating salt stuck in the chamber?
Is it the out of spec magwell?
Is it the wrongly machined angle of the brass bumper?

Because I have read all of the above from factory made rifles. Your parts will be made by a factory and all of the above and more could be wrong.

My rifle had a FTJ issue. Do you automatically know what it was without looking it up?






<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who do you send it to when it fails to cycle properly? </div></div>

Why would it fail to cycle properly? Im not worried about that. I've built so many ARs I can't remember them all. Never had one that didn't run like a Swiss watch.

Reliability isn't my concern.

I was just wondering from those in the know if they knew of anything GAP and Larue were doing precision wise other than manufacturing or assembling quality parts. </div></div>
 
#17
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: USACS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you build, you run into two issues. One is logistically related, the other is cost related.
In terms of logistics, you need to select a .308 platform (AR10 or LR308), and then source your parts according to the platform. There is no industry standard specification for the .308 platform as a whole.
In terms of cost, you need to account for the added expense of tools. .308 ARs require specific tools for certain jobs. You can easily spend a good deal of money doing this, and if you don't use them to build more rifles, the overall cost savings of building your own may not total out to be any cost savings at all.
I recently priced out a build, and the cost was $2600. I then priced out what it would cost for a rifle from GAP and LaRue, and the extra cost was worth it in order to get the name and guarantee of the rifle maker. I like to consider myself a relatively accomplished armorer and builder, but I know that there is no way I can build a rifle with the equipment I currently have that can match the accuracy of the GAP-10 and OBR. I can build a rifle that will likely get .5MOA, but there are GAP-10s and OBRs pulling 0.3MOA. That's nuts. And worth the extra price and the hit to my personal pride in not building the rifle myself. </div></div>



Hmmmmmmm.......very valid points. Thanks.


As far as failure and reliability, I guess I've been lucky with every rifle I've either bought or built. Except for one. An Armalite SAAS. Double fed all the time......I didn't diagnose it, I sold it. Mainly cause I just didn't like it.

Any other little glitches or hick ups, I can figure out on a gas gun. Ive built much more complicated things than that and trouble shoot much more complicated mechanical systems.

The cost offset though might not be as much as I initially thought. Couple in added resale value and it looks like an OBR is in my future.
 
#19
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

After building many AR-15's I was going to build myself an AR-10. After pricin g all the components, tools, odds & ends needed I decided that it would be cheaper to purchase one outright with guarenteed accuracy and customer service if needed. I wound up buying an ARMALITE SASS and could not be happier! After breaking it in according to ARMALITE Specs, it is an absolute "One-Holer"! I mean this rifle has yet to be outshot by ANY turnbolt .308 from any of the "Big Six". No FTF's, of either kind, no FTE's, nothing but soft recoiling, tack driving performance from any & every weight ammo I have tried. Build your own if you want to and more power to you! As for me, I'm glad I went with the Original and the lifetime warranty if i ever need it.(Not that I expect to) KEEP RELOADING & SHOOTING!
 
#21
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

I like to do both. I assemble my own if someone is not offering exactly what I want, I can do it for less, or I feel I can assemble one just as good or better. I also like to buy factory guns for their resale value as someone else stated.

I am hesitant of buying someone else's franken-gun. However, you can always part a gun out that you assembled and folks will be more likely to buy.

As far as tools; The only tools I think are different between AR 15s and AR 308s are vice blocks and head space gauges. Roll pin punches, torque wrenches, and stock wrenches are all the same. Even the barrel nut wrench for the Armalite pattern is the same for 15 and 308. Obviously if you select a unique rail system it may require a proprietary wrench though. If you've been assembling AR15s then you may have to spend $50-$100 on tools that you will find yourself using many more times.

If you are confident in your abilities then go ahead and DIY.
 
#22
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

I built my own and do not regret it. I have a stock Armalite Ar-10 and put a FF rail and a Noveske barrel on it. It shoots awesome.

Like someone said in an earlier post, I don't buy and flip guns, I keep them. So resale value doesn't matter to me.
 
#23
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

"~$2760 for a sure thing, and the whole thing of standing in front of your gun case with a cold brewsky, thinking about how cool that GAP is and how cool you look shooting it"

RIGHT ON !!! But I'm building mine, started with a RRA LAR-8, and goin from there, but I'll never sell it though either.
 
#24
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

Very interesting post and replies.

I can see how buying a quality barrel and extension would solve a great deal of the variables in accuracy.

However, can someone give some thoughts regarding these questions:

Is there a value to properly machining/squaring/lapping the bolt lugs so that the face of the bolt is square when rotated into the locked position?

Also, is there a need to make certain that the threads on the upper are square to the centerline of the bolt bore?

Just curious.
 
#25
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

TexasRedNeck... I can't answer either question for you as I am new to this platform, I was an avid pistol shooter before, but want to know as well. If you find out from another source please post the findings !!!
Thanx...
 
#26
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TexasRedNeck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very interesting post and replies.

I can see how buying a quality barrel and extension would solve a great deal of the variables in accuracy.

However, can someone give some thoughts regarding these questions:

Is there a value to properly machining/squaring/lapping the bolt lugs so that the face of the bolt is square when rotated into the locked position?

Also, is there a need to make certain that the threads on the upper are square to the centerline of the bolt bore?

Just curious.

</div></div>

AR's ar not as finiky about these things. Yeah it has to be right but does it have to be within .0004 like a precision bolt..........I say no

The design is just more forgiving
 
#27
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rprecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TexasRedNeck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very interesting post and replies.

I can see how buying a quality barrel and extension would solve a great deal of the variables in accuracy.

However, can someone give some thoughts regarding these questions:

Is there a value to properly machining/squaring/lapping the bolt lugs so that the face of the bolt is square when rotated into the locked position?

Also, is there a need to make certain that the threads on the upper are square to the centerline of the bolt bore?

Just curious.

</div></div>

AR's ar not as finiky about these things. Yeah it has to be right but does it have to be within .0004 like a precision bolt..........I say no

The design is just more forgiving </div></div>

Is that because you allow the tolerance (and subsequently accept a lesser standard of precision) or is there some intrinsic reason why a bolt gun is that much more sensitive to the error or is that it is just unreasonable or impossible to attain to the same level in an auto?
 
#28
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

The other thing is I like the POF upper and lower that GAP uses. I dont want a POF gun, but whoever does their machining I like. I use POF lowers on almost all my AR15's and love them.

Does anyone know if POF sells their bare AR-10 upper and lowers?
 
#29
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Hogan manufacturing makes or made the POF parts. I believe they still sell them. Try searching POF uppers/lowers on here and Google. I have seen Hogan/POF parts threads on here. </span>

After reading through the Hogan/POF threads like Killshot mentioned, I do NOT recommend going Hogan. Seems like they are stealing POF's ideas and designs and seem no better than common thieves. Their QC looks suspect as well.

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#30
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

Hogan quality in no way compares to POF quality, just so you know. Although the Hogan looks identical, it doesn't compare in terms of workmanship and quality. Do a search on here for "Hogan" and you'll see what I'm referring to.
 
#32
Re: So Im thinking about a precision AR-10.....

The pros and cons of rolling your own premium component AR-10 vs unquestionably great quality of GAP built or other well known builder, have been nicely laid out. Hard to argue with what you get for the price on a GAP. However, I get a warm feeling every time I shoot my home rolled Krieger with headspaced bolt, Iron Ridge Upper and Lower, PRI forend, PRS stock, geissle match trigger. I couldnt be happier with accuracy and reliability. I did have a bit of a glitch until I discovered that the DMPS bolt came with an AR-15 ejector spring, wouldnt eject reliably. Once I figured that out, it has run like a raped ape. Building one yourself is more expensive than you would think, until you start adding up premium components. Either path can give good results.
I also have found that I can frequently match my buddy when he is shooting a good bolt gun, on 2 moa steel out to 800 yds or so.
 
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