So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

[neoinarien]

So it seems that after a lot of reading most guys are going with an AR10 instead of a M1a.

Sound about right?

I'm looking at getting into a semi for shooting to 600 yards and hopefully beyond. Seems like the AR10 is slightly more accurate and cost effective.

 

[Chiller]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

that opens up a "can-o-worms"......

 

[ORD]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

Oh NOOOOO!! Not this debate again!!

Both the M1A and the AR-10/SR-25/"Big Boy" ARs have their pros/cons, but the ARs generally win out for numerous reasons...all of which have been hashed out here and elsewhere for a LONG time. You might try running a search of this forum and elsewhere for "X" vs. "Y" comparisons on the different platforms and you should be able to keep yourself occupied for several days/weeks.

As for the basic premises that the ARs are both cheaper to buy/build and arguably more accurate...that is generally true in my experience.

 

[Prairie Dog Dundee]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I own a M1A NM and a LMT MWS. Both are good rifles and both have hardcore followings. If I could only have one it would be the LMT because it is more accurate and I like the feel of it better. The AR is also cheaper to make changes to if you into customization.

[img

Uploaded with ImageShack.usimg]

 

[KillShot]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

 

[Alderleet]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

The general consensus is that M1A's carry a oldschool nostalgia about them. Some dig it.

But when performance comes into question, even a cobbled together AR10 will out shoot a MIA.

 

[Pat M]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The general consensus is that M1A's carry a oldschool nostalgia about them. Some dig it.

But when performance comes into question, even a cobbled together AR10 will out shoot a MIA. </div></div>

2nd that ^

 

[kraigWY]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

Guess it depends on what you want to do with it, if just plinking it dosn't matter.

If you want to get into target shooting you just might want to start working on your Distinguished Rifle Badge in which case the choice would have to be the M1A. DCM doen't reconize the AR10s as a service rifle and they are the ones who run the program.

I do dispute the comments that the M1A arn't accurate or wont hold up. Having been around hundreds of Match Grand M14/M1A, both while running hte AK National Guard Marksmanship unit and Attending/Instruction Sniper Schools with the M-21 I found they are quite accurate and do hold up.

The American Rifleman had an article a couple years ago about the M14/M21. It seems they spent less time in the Maintance shops then the Marines M-40 during the SE Asia FTX.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I almost wish H20Man wasn't banned...




almost.

Josh

 

[diver9]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

which one is more reliable?? and why?
.
.
.
.
couldnt resist

 

[Bearwalk]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

To me, this is like trying to choose a favorite child. I can't make a decision in either instance.

The result is that I own both platforms and have never regretted it.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I don't think there is a reliability problem with either. Now I don't have or shoot an AR 10 but I've have a lot of experence with the AR/M16 system, starting in 1967 when got my invite to the SE Asia FTX, through years of running the SARTS (Small Arms Readiness Training Section) for the Alaska National Guard, and trying to switch over to the ARs for HP. I've found the AR system to be quite reliable.

But the same with the M14/M1A. I've been shooting my personal M1A since 1977. The only problems I encountered were shot out barrels and stretched out slings. Again, Ive delt quite a bit with M14/M1As in running and coaching the Alaska NG Marksmanship unit, including running sniper schools using the M21.

As far as reliability between the two, its a <span style="font-weight: bold">coin toss</span>.

 

[Birddog1911]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

OK, what happened to H2OMan??

That guy has probably forgotten more about the M14 platform than most will ever learn.

 

[kiterme]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

LOL

 

[BCP]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

There's really no arguing that the AR is a better platform for the civilian shooter but in the end it's personal preference.

H20man got banned days ago, I guess someone got tired of seeing the same pictures of the M14EBR over and over and over...

 

[ArmaHeavy]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

 

[vereceleritas]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

I wouldn't mind sharing a padded cell with her.

Scope mounting is probably the biggest weakness of the M1A compared to the AR-10 IMO. There are reliable solutions but they aren't cheap and cheek weld becomes a problem at that point. I had planned on a JAE-100 G2 build with a SEI mount but I decided to keep it simple and stuck with iron sights and a laminate stock. I own an M14 strictly for nostalgic and aesthetic reasons. As much as I love M14's, I would agree that the AR-10 is a more accurate platform that's easier and cheaper to keep accurate in the long run.

 

[superjc]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

The only reason I don't own an AR-10 is because I live in California. To me the scope mounting ease makes it better, and I love both my M1A's. The Scott Duff book says that wooden M1A stocks need to be re-bedded every 1000 rounds or so, mine has more than that and maybe that's partly why I don't get the accuracy I feel I should. The JAE solves that but whoa what a price tag.

 

[BCP]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I live in Cali and have several ARs in 223 and 308. Just can't have over 10 round mags and have to have a goofy mag release button. It's annoying with a 223 but not with a 308 as the ammunition cost is so much higher.

 

[Grump]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superjc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only reason I don't own an AR-10 is because I live in California. To me the scope mounting ease makes it better, and I love both my M1A's. The Scott Duff book says that wooden M1A stocks need to be re-bedded every 1000 rounds or so, mine has more than that and maybe that's partly why I don't get the accuracy I feel I should. The JAE solves that but whoa what a price tag. </div></div>

I disagree with Mr. Duff and most everyone else who preaches this 1,000-round/every year re-bed/skim bed doctrine.

No lugs, nothing fancy. My bedding held up longer than my first barrel did. New barrel, new bedding is probably needed, but I'd check the fore-end tension and overall fit first.

This reminds me of some silly American Handgunner article about running your Beretta M9 to 75,000 miles. It involved some regular maintenance replacement of parts all over the place...left me with hardly a feeling of confidence in the pistol. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I'm with Grump on this one, with all do respect to Mr Duff.

I've been shooting M14/M1As a long time, I find that (1000 round-rebed) not to be true.

 

[armydog]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

Muscle memory is the only reason I went with an AR10 over the M1A, i'm in the Army and didn't wanna find my self in a position where I was trying to pop off the wrong safety at the wrong time or the mag release or who knows what. At least that was how I made the decision. Wrong or right its how and why I did it. Both good rifles both have there pros's and con's.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

To me, if you want to shoot prone/bipod/optics then it's a no-brainer. The M1A was not designed to be shot that way and it takes a bit of modification to get it to that point. Most of the current crop of precision AR .308's are designed to be shot in exactly this manner. You can make a M1A into a precision rifle, but you can also make a revolver into a rifle. It doesn't mean it's optimized for the role.

Now if I was just going out for a day of iron sighted fun, then I would love to have an M1A. It's one of the reasons I love my Garand.

Me have several M14's right now that are being scoped and sent out as special purpose rifles. Why the M14's over an SR25, AR10, etc? Because the M14's are free.

If you look at most any rifle shooting discipline where the rules don't govern the platform, you will see shooters gravitating towards the AR platforms. They just work.

 

[08Cayenne]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I'm new, never had the chance to kick this horse. Never had an AR so I really can't compare. One is on my short list though. But I do have a bone stock SAI M21 with a heavy Krieger barrel, rear lugged with a bedded walnut stock. Just had the opportunity to do my first long range shooting with it, shooting prone with a bipod. It held 5/8" MOA 5 shot zeroing groups at 100 yards every day. It easily rang steel from 200 to 1000 yards in 100 yard increments. The 1000 yard plate was 24" x 32", the 700 yard was 10" x 16", the 400 yard was 6" square, the 200 yard was 4", can't remember the other sizes. Very erratic cross winds from 3 to 12 mph. I didn't shoot against any AR's but it easily kept up with the bolt guns. Has one of those junkie NF NXS scopes too.

Doesn't prove anything, but they will shoot.

 

[kytrapper]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

Dont care which side your on.......Thats a nice rifle!!!!

 

[M21guy]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I'm pretty proud of my M21. I built it to shoot and it does that pretty well. I haven't come across an AR-10 that shot any better, but then again I haven't come across GAP10's or such either with any sort of shooter behind the trigger.
The absolute down side of the M1a and other copies is the cost. Making something happen takes money with them and absolutely perfect fitting. Back when I got into M1a rifles, There wasn't a huge push in AR10s. They flat out sucked, but nowadays they damn near compete with bolt action rifles. Refining a M1a to do that today is insane, but then again, no one ever accused me of being otherwise.
In the end the AR10 rifle is more likely to give it all with minimum investment, but a few of us still like the challenge.

 

[ElCoyote]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I like the Ar Mr. potato head aspect, 1 lower and multiple uppers.

 

[smokey0118]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

get an fnar instead of either...booya

 

[oneshot onekill]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

Haven't shot a .308 AR in many years so I don't know how much better they are now, but my new SCAR 17 shoots better (for me) than either of the two Supermatch M1A's I've owned....

Let the flogging begin! LOL!!!

 

[LFOD1776]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

The SR-25 is for shooting

The M1A is for collecting

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I have both and my M1A gets used, often side by side with a GAP10. Sure it takes money to get a M1A to hang with a more modern gas gun but the price of admission isn't that much different overall.

My M1A is a NM version and cost $1900 back in 1990. I added a JAE stock and a Sadlack to scope it and the cost is almost identical to the GAP10 out the door. Performance wise the accuracy edge goes to the G10 purely from a consistency standpoint but its not exactly a hands-down ass-whoopin. Sub minute at 600 yards is...well...sub minute at 600 yards and the platform doesn't matter. The first time I shot the M1A at distance a few months ago I printed a sub-minute 10 shot group without much effort.

I did nothing special to it other than the stock coupled with very cafeful/cautious optics mounting. No gas system timing/indexing or any other fancy crap and it has yet to experience a single failure of any type.

A M1A just sitting around looking pretty is almost a crime. They're built to shoot. Mine will compete in F-TAC and surprise a lot of people.

 

[Advokaten]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vereceleritas</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

I wouldn't mind sharing a padded cell with her.

</div></div>

You sure, both of you wearing that thing she has on?

Never the less,

for someone prohibited to own read use either model of rifle I find this thread funny as hell.

/Chris

 

[JL]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My M1A is a NM version. I added a JAE stock and a Sadlack to scope it

</div></div>

Friend has identical setup, but scope is S&B.
We were in sniper comp as team 2 years go, I was shooting my AR10 (Oberland Arms). Against high-end bolt actions, we happen to shoot best points in 550meters stage. Both took 10 shots, individual points were practically same. So it was a tie.
Hes stick was very accurate, sub moa easily with FGMM 168gr ammo.

Still, he had some reliability issues- but not because of rifle itself. Comp area was sandy, and that caused few mag related problems since pouches were filled with sand. I was using plastic mags, no problems with them. Hes rig was also heavyer, but mine isnt light either.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Friend has identical setup, but scope is S&B.
We were in sniper comp as team 2 years go, I was shooting my AR10 (Oberland Arms). Against high-end bolt actions, we happen to shoot best points in 550meters stage. Both took 10 shots, individual points were practically same. So it was a tie.
Hes stick was very accurate, sub moa easily with FGMM 168gr ammo.

Still, he had some reliability issues- but not because of rifle itself. Comp area was sandy, and that caused few mag related problems since pouches were filled with sand. I was using plastic mags, no problems with them. Hes rig was also heavyer, but mine isnt light either. </div></div>

Good to hear there are others shooting these things. I never even see one any more unless I stumble across some old-schoolers shooting service rifle at the local range. I love my GAP10 but there's something about this weapon that I can't explain. Maybe because I cut my teeth with one shooting service rifle. Sometimes I'll take it with me to the range just to shoot a single string when I go to shoot other platforms. I was stunned at how it performed when I took it out to 600 particularly after reading all the BS floating around about them. It almost had me convinced that they weren't accurate.

 

[BW88]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

To me the biggest issue, as already stated above by LoneWolf, is that the M1A was not designed to have receiver mounted optics and was not designed for prone shooting. The ergonomics are not great for this type of application. It can be modified to fit that role, but, its gonna cost you. And the end result is difficult to shoot comfortably from a low prone position. Not to knock the M1A as it is a superbe battle rifle, acurate and reliable.

Modern AR10 flat tops are set up for rock solid optic attachment and are adept at prone shooting. They can be built somewhat lighter than a modified M1A. You can get a great solid low position when shooting prone and your head/neck, when looking through a property mounted optic, is comfortably aligned with the sight picture.

I've had two factory AR10s (both DPMS) that would shoot close to 1/2moa out of the box. I mounted glass and was ready to go. Magpul's .308/AR10 mags are fantastic. I did eventually upgrade to a match trigger. Everything else was stock on both those rifles.

I've spent some time behind an M1A and immediately noticed issues with ergonomics when trying to shoot prone. Getting a good cheek weld/sight picture alignment put me much higher off the ground than with an AR10. Higher off the ground equates to difficulty achieving a good shooting position.

In my opinion, the modern AR10 is a much better choice--unless you are looking for a project with lots of cash in hand or if you are going to be shooting the rifle from a bench all the time. Then, either can serve you well.

 

[Jaytil]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have both and my M1A gets used, often side by side with a GAP10. Sure it takes money to get a M1A to hang with a more modern gas gun but the price of admission isn't that much different overall.

My M1A is a NM version and cost $1900 back in 1990. I added a JAE stock and a Sadlack to scope it and the cost is almost identical to the GAP10 out the door. Performance wise the accuracy edge goes to the G10 purely from a consistency standpoint but its not exactly a hands-down ass-whoopin. Sub minute at 600 yards is...well...sub minute at 600 yards and the platform doesn't matter. The first time I shot the M1A at distance a few months ago I printed a sub-minute 10 shot group without much effort.

I did nothing special to it other than the stock coupled with very cafeful/cautious optics mounting. No gas system timing/indexing or any other fancy crap and it has yet to experience a single failure of any type.

A M1A just sitting around looking pretty is almost a crime. They're built to shoot. Mine will compete in F-TAC and surprise a lot of people.

</div></div>

Absolutely gorgeous...

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BW88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To me the biggest issue, as already stated above by LoneWolf, is that the M1A was not designed to have receiver mounted optics and was not designed for prone shooting. The ergonomics are not great for this type of application. It can be modified to fit that role, but, its gonna cost you. And the end result is difficult to shoot comfortably from a low prone position. Not to knock the M1A as it is a superbe battle rifle, acurate and reliable.

Modern AR10 flat tops are set up for rock solid optic attachment and are adept at prone shooting. They can be built somewhat lighter than a modified M1A. You can get a great solid low position when shooting prone and your head/neck, when looking through a property mounted optic, is comfortably aligned with the sight picture.

I've had two factory AR10s (both DPMS) that would shoot close to 1/2moa out of the box. I mounted glass and was ready to go. Magpul's .308/AR10 mags are fantastic. I did eventually upgrade to a match trigger. Everything else was stock on both those rifles.

I've spent some time behind an M1A and immediately noticed issues with ergonomics when trying to shoot prone. Getting a good cheek weld/sight picture alignment put me much higher off the ground than with an AR10. Higher off the ground equates to difficulty achieving a good shooting position.

In my opinion, the modern AR10 is a much better choice--unless you are looking for a project with lots of cash in hand or if you are going to be shooting the rifle from a bench all the time. Then, either can serve you well. </div></div>

I agree with you to a point but I just don't see the issues.

Why ride an old Harley rigid when a Gold Wing has cup holders?
Why build a hot-rodded 63 Sting Ray when a modern ZO6 will eat its lunch?

You guys seem to have the position that if it's not the "latest and greatest" that is has no performance value and I simply don't see things that way. Never have. The for sale section is full of junk that someone bought only to realize that...

A. Its not the latest and greatest any more and I just lost tacticool points
B. I can't shoot it therefore it must be the rifle's fault

I would never argue the benefits of the modern AR10. I own my second and love it but it doesn't render my M1A useless. To the contrary its been my mission to make it as accurate as possible and to my surprise it was nowhere near as hard as I was led to believe. To me it was like building that old corvette. I'm a tinkerer, a gear head, or whatever you want to call it. Where others see age and obsolescence I see opportunity.

A M1A is like a tattoo...if you have one (and appreciate it) no explanation is needed.
If you don't...no explanation is possible. I'll concede that a M1A will never be an AR-10 BUT...an AR10 will <span style="text-decoration: underline">never </span>be a M1A.

Hell, I'd wager that likely 50% of AR10 owners couldn't hit water with them if they were to throw them into a lake. But dammit they got one.

 

[M21guy]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I shoot prone all the time with my m1a/m21. It feels different yes, but it isn't an issue to shoot well with or without optics. Way the heck more comfortable than shooting from the bench, if you ask me.

Here is an observation I've made from just being on the range over time here. Many people here with AR-10s are just enthusiasts with little to no formal training, and are just out to have some fun. It's cheap to get into one, so many do it. Generally they don't shoot them all that well, but happy to hit a civil group now and then. Same with the guys with a lower end M1a rifles, even though they are fewer. Not always, but generally you see rifles like mine, or BattleAxes, they belong to serious guys that took a lot of time and money to do it right. Harder to tell on an AR for me, but I notice that S&B on top and think maybe this guy is serious. Now we all know it is hard to get respect, something like that needs to be earned. I just wish that peeps with would not automatically disrespect me as shooter or the gun I choose to shoot with simply because I chose a path least traveled. I know darn well what an AR can do with a solid shooter behind the trigger. I spent 3 years and a lot of money making my M21 perform like those ARs. I've spent the better part of my life learning to be a better shooter. From humble beginnings and the constant desire to be better. Please don't underestimate what something like the M1a can do or most us guys that take them to the max. It takes a lot of devotion with the M1a. Anyone putting just half as much devotion into their shooting ability, is probably also a pretty good shooter with that rifle.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M21guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I just wish that peeps with would not automatically disrespect me as shooter or the gun I choose to shoot with simply because I chose a path least traveled. </div></div>Part of the problem here is that there was member here a while back (H2OMan) that had an EBR and he kept waaaaaaaving it around every 2 seconds, even in threads that had nothing to do with the M14 and he'd never post a single range report on it. Hell, I love M14's and that was one sick looking rifle but even I got tired of hearing about it.

Then there's the "snob" factor that exists within precision rifle and the shooting sports in general that no one will admit is there, yet look no further than some of the goofy match rules and it becomes pretty clear thoes rules exist solely to benefit a certain clique. It's at least mildly entertaining.

The biggest problem is that we've become a disposable, fast food society. Something is old... throw it away. Something is new...borrow money just to have it, then throw the old one away. If we can't afford the payment...throw that away too and care not that other humans absorb the loss. We simply don't fix shit any more, and always having new or better has become an entitlement, and a vehicle to achieve status.

 

[Maggot]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

Nice one, KS.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The general consensus is that M1A's carry a oldschool nostalgia about them. Some dig it.

But when performance comes into question, even a cobbled together AR10 will out shoot a MIA.</div></div>

www.m14forums.com

Dont tell these guys that

 

[Tactical_Tom]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

Both platforms have their place. The AR10 is a better target/tactical rifle, and the m1a is a better hunting rifle.

 

[LFOD1776]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: M21guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I just wish that peeps with would not automatically disrespect me as shooter or the gun I choose to shoot with simply because I chose a path least traveled. </div></div>...

The biggest problem is that we've become a disposable, fast food society. Something is old... throw it away. Something is new...borrow money just to have it, then throw the old one away. If we can't afford the payment...throw that away too and care not that other humans absorb the loss. We simply don't fix shit any more, and always having new or better has become an entitlement, and a vehicle to achieve status.</div></div>

That is not how I size up the debate. I used to be an M1A devotee and it is not the company of my fellow M1A shooters that changed my mind, it was getting some time behind the trigger of a few SR25s.

I've thrown plenty of money into high-end M1As, and I really do love them for what they are, but it is just not a platform that has the same fundamental potential for accuracy as the AR10. M1As (mine anyway) are finicky about ammo, ergonomically challenged, and are extremely heavy when accurized, and none of them are as accurate as my SR25.

There are M1As that shoot well right out of the box, but for the most part it's just not a MOA gun. The AR10, on the other hand, provided it's got a decent barrel, is an extremely accurate rifle every time.

Now I collect a lot of impractical guns, because I just love guns, and I am especially interested in things that are "different", but I don't suggest that other people should want them simply because of my own tastes. If a fellow can only afford one semi-automatic rifle in .308, and he likes making small jagged holes in paper from faraway distances, I would recommend to him that he buy an AR-10.

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

First, pay attention to Kraig. He's coming from experience rather than elementary ramblings about what he thinks he knows.

Now here's my experience based on 30 years of shooting both. These two guns are of two distinct designs from two separate eras. My observation and experience has been AR10's do not mileage very well actually, kinda like domestic cars before getting ass kicked by foreign ones; 100,000 was the life of a domestic auto until recent years. AR10's get beat up. Its primarily the bolts and the faring peen that get brokened.

We don't hear too much about that stuff here. Guys don't talk much about when their gun breaks. Finally, an AR can be built on a tailgate of a truck in a pasture by CoCo the Gorilla after a simple barrel nut wrench and Loc-Tite application lesson.

VERSUS

The older gun is from an era whose basic design is 70 years, pre dating WWII (Garand) of proven service absent alterations because its big enough in the right places to work without breaking and functions reliably. An M1A's parts are few, big, and heavy. The piston system is the fastest, or among the fastest, semi-automatic cycles, according to Glenn Zediker in his article on <span style="text-decoration: underline">Loading for the M14</span>. And the older gun does not heat, gas, or deposit residue in its bolt in the process. The M1A is entirely appropriate for prone shooting once fitted with an adjustable butt-plate and cheek riser like many prone stocks. An accurate one has to be built and bedded by a specialist unlike CoCo.

Both have hammers, i.e.; long lock time. ARs can avail themselves of trigger upgrades acceptable for long range precision marksmanship. M1A? No, but there are masters at tuning these triggers. AR's are more plentiful so we're more familiar with them so more accessories are produced for them so we can hang so much stuff on them until they look like a gypsy wagon/transformer; optics, lights, lasers, knives, bayonets, bells, horns.....

I have and enjoy a 1955 Springfield NM Garand. I've shot it for 30 years; it shoots MOA with irons. This old gun shoots several loads equally precise.
I have and enjoy several AR's. If you can't make up your mind on how you want the gun configured, get an AR. They're easily modified with as little as a torx wrench and a VISA.
If you train with weights, want a gun you'll not have to work on again get the old school gun.

This, simply, has been my experience and that of those I know.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LFOD1776</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[That is not how I size up the debate. </div></div> No offense friend but therein lies the root of the problem. This isn't a debate. We're not comparing the platforms, nor do we modify the old due to some percieved problem with the new. If you take the time to actually read what's being said, it's a pretty clear explanation of why we choose to tinker with these platforms and the AR-10 doesn't fit anywhere into the equation. This is what this debate sounds like to us....


Mary: Hi John. What did you do this afternoon?

John: I went to the beach to sit in the sun.

Mary: Oh...how fun. I love going to the beach and just listening to the surf.

Bubba: (overhearing this conversation) How can you like that shit? The water is filthy, there are fleas in the sand, and the sun causes skin cancer. The beach doesn't compare to sitting by my nice clean pool. How can you compare the two.

John and Mary: Ummmm...OK. You don't have to go to the beach Bubba. We're not suggesting that you do. We're just talking about our day and what we like. We're not comparing it to the pool.

Bubba: You can't like it. The beach is old and dirty. The pool is new and clean.

John & Mary: Sure, the pool is new and clean. We like the pool too and we even have our own pool at home. But we also like hanging at the beach.

Bubba: This is ridiculous. How can you even compare the two?

John & Mary: Ummm...well...we're not comparing anything. We're simply talking about something we like and it appears that you're telling us that we're not allowed to like it.

Bubba: That's correct. You're not allowed to like it. If I don't like it, you can't like it either so stop comparing the old smelly beach to the nice clean new pool.

Bubba walks off

John: What the f&$K was that Mary?

Mary: I don't know John but I'm freightened. What if he comes back? I just like sitting at the beach.

John: Me too Mary. C'mon Mary, I know how to keep this from happeing again.

John takes Mary down the beach to the fishing pier and walks her down to the end of the pier. He pulls a .45 pistol from his backpack and shoots her in the brain. He then turns the pistol on himself and they both fall lifeless into the sea.

So what's the moral of this story?

Never tell an AR10 owner that you have a M1A because there is no comparison.

 

[George63]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

to me the AR platform is suitable for a kitchen table gunsmith (like me) and the garand/m14 need real skill, tools, and understanding, since I like to wrench on my rifles I stay with AR types

 

[M14]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

Now thats funny Battle Axe, gotta love it.
Anyone ever hear of an LRB M25 for scoping issues on the M14 ?
There goes that detriment to the platform out the window.

Tell you what, you guys go shoot 1000 rounds through your AR's, and we do the same on the 14's, and compare problems.
No cleaning of any kind or fooling with them allowed, no add ons, no messing with them, optics, irons or otherwise, and see which one holds up in all weather conditions like rain,wind,sand,mud, snow and heat. If any one of your bolt carriers and bolts makes it through without problems, I would be amazed. Feeding, extracting, and ejecting included, not to mention being gummed up.
OK, ? Sounds like a fair way to find out. Let the gut slinging begin !

 

[Matt.Cross]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LFOD1776</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[That is not how I size up the debate. </div></div> No offense friend but therein lies the root of the problem. This isn't a debate. We're not comparing the platforms, nor do we modify the old due to some percieved problem with the new. If you take the time to actually read what's being said, it's a pretty clear explanation of why we choose to tinker with these platforms and the AR-10 doesn't fit anywhere into the equation. This is what this debate sounds like to us....


Mary: Hi John. What did you do this afternoon?

John: I went to the beach to sit in the sun.

Mary: Oh...how fun. I love going to the beach and just listening to the surf.

Bubba: (overhearing this conversation) How can you like that shit? The water is filthy, there are fleas in the sand, and the sun causes skin cancer. The beach doesn't compare to sitting by my nice clean pool. How can you compare the two.

John and Mary: Ummmm...OK. You don't have to go to the beach Bubba. We're not suggesting that you do. We're just talking about our day and what we like. We're not comparing it to the pool.

Bubba: You can't like it. The beach is old and dirty. The pool is new and clean.

John & Mary: Sure, the pool is new and clean. We like the pool too and we even have our own pool at home. But we also like hanging at the beach.

Bubba: This is ridiculous. How can you even compare the two?

John & Mary: Ummm...well...we're not comparing anything. We're simply talking about something we like and it appears that you're telling us that we're not allowed to like it.

Bubba: That's correct. You're not allowed to like it. If I don't like it, you can't like it either so stop comparing the old smelly beach to the nice clean new pool.

Bubba walks off

John: What the f&$K was that Mary?

Mary: I don't know John but I'm freightened. What if he comes back? I just like sitting at the beach.

John: Me too Mary. C'mon Mary, I know how to keep this from happeing again.

John takes Mary down the beach to the fishing pier and walks her down to the end of the pier. He pulls a .45 pistol from his backpack and shoots her in the brain. He then turns the pistol on himself and they both fall lifeless into the sea.

So what's the moral of this story?

Never tell an AR10 owner that you have a M1A because there is no comparison.</div></div>

Ha! Spoken like a true M1A owner. An AR10 owner's story would've ended with John putting a bullet in Bubba's brain on the end of the pier, at which point Mary would join him for seafood dinner and then they would enjoy the beach together.

I'm just yanking your chain by the way, I really enjoyed your example.

 

[sgtbutt]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A M1A is like a tattoo...if you have one (and appreciate it) no explanation is needed.
If you don't...no explanation is possible. I'll concede that a M1A will never be an AR-10 BUT...an AR10 will <span style="text-decoration: underline">never </span>be a M1A.</div></div>

Battle Axe you couldn't have said it better. And on both points, and to illustrate...............

Sorry for the bad pic but it reads "Lord, give me the strength to pull the trigger so that my children might not have to". I got this ink a little over two years ago just before my 2nd deployment. No, I've never carried one but as a new private and naive 19 year old about 8 years ago I went an M14 clinic and fell in love with the platform.

 

[TexIndian]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

I've been an M1A guy for more than a quarter century. Currently I own a 'traditional' version in walnut and this one:

Both have been fully accurized and will shoot as good as I can.

I was slow to come around to the black guns, but I'm not completely stuck in the past. My LaRue OBR is now two weeks late for delivery. I expect it will be more consistently accurate but will have issues of its own. It will have a long row to hoe before it can claim the durability of my older M1A. But at least it won't eat my brass.

 

[M21guy]

Re: So it seems (AR10 v M1a)

BattleAxe your story was priceless. I'm in tears I laughed so hard after reading it.

Once upon a time not so long ago, I was state representative for an up and coming National Rifle Association which was all for M14 rifles mainly. I liked this position I was selected for. I traveled all about the state shooting and bringing M14 rifle shooters together. Spreading the word. I believed in it. But I along with others had our outs with the organization over issues in management and ideas. One of my ideas was to have shoots where us guys would allow AR-10 shooters into mix. After all the organization was based on military rifle shooters, isn't the AR a part of that? I was looking to increase the organization exponentially and bring in a mix of the new ideas along with keeping the wisdom of the old. I was a pretty young guy in a mix of Vietnam era guys and older. Unlike most of them I did not fear this big bad black rifle and those who shoot them making the organization as a whole worse. I wanted to compete, I knew I could and thought we all could have a good time doing it. To learn from one another. It's just it seems I'm caught in the middle of a stupid fest on both sides of the fence.