So my GAP 6.5Creedmoor is out shooting my AXMC 338Lapua at distance... Update! (bottom of page 2)

[regency]

This is a tough one for me, considering how much I spent on my AX but after several trips to the range, my GAP just flat out out shoots it on calm days and windy days.

I have fired factory and reloads through both. Both guns have single digit extreme spreads (reloads) on my Labradar, with the GA shooting 1/4-1/2 " groups and the AX shooting 1" to 1.5" groups at 100.

At 800yds GAP was 10/10, AX was 4/10
At 1100yds GAP was 10/10, AX was 2/10
At 1400yds GAP was 6/10, AX was 0/10

Vertical spread seems to be the same for both guns, considering the low ES. The problem is the 338 wants to shoot left and right of the targets while the 6.5 drills it every time until I get past 1200yds. Creedmoor is shooting a 140 berger hybrid at 2770fps and the 338 is shooting a hornady 285gr eld at 2735fps. The 338 is much more sensitive to wind in the field(it seems). Taking shots at 1400, the 338 misses by a much larger margin than the 6.5

When I get the time, I'm going to try some different bullets but was curious if anyone has experienced something like this with a bigger bore rifle compared to a PRS competition gun?

 

[Dan Warner]

First, stop comparing the two. While performance indicator comparisons are good, it won't help you solve the specific issues that plague one rifle. Now you can start to isolate key points with the problem child. More information is needed regarding the 338, but I think you have touched on one point already; "the AX shooting 1" to 1.5" groups at 100". If the gun is a 1 to 1.5 minute gun at 100 yards, it will be a 1 to 1.5 minute gun at 1400 yards. Diagnosing why that is should be the focus going forward. It is likely not a function of ammunition, given your attention to it already and the fact that you have tried several options.

 

[diverdon]

Have you checked the torque on the screw that sets the barrel?

If you have never changed the barrel I can not see any reason why you would check that torque. Unless the rifle was not shooting to expectation. I think the factory recommends 49inlbs. Some shooters have said that they got better results going a little higher.

If you are just shooting the rifle the way it came from the dealer consider the possibility that a salesman finger fucked the barrel and make sure it is properly installed.
------------------
Also if possible swap scopes between the rifles and see if the problem follows the scope or the rifle.
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Make sure everything on the scope is properly torqued

First, stop comparing the two. While performance indicator comparisons are good, it won't help you solve the specific issues that plague one rifle.

I see your point Dan, and it is a good one. Yet I think that comparison is very relevant to this thread, because we do not start out by wondering if the problem might be that the OP is a 1.5 moa shooter. If the OP gets much better results on the same day with a different rifle then it is more likely that the difference is the rifle.

 

[regency]

I have recently cleaned the barrel, uninstalled it, then installed and torqued it a little tighter than recommended. This was mile high’s suggestion... I will be running factory ammo through it at 100yds soon.

The scope currently on the gun came off my competition gun that always performed well for me. It’s a gen3 k624i in a one piece spuhr mount that is properly torqued.

 

[jfields]

I would expect .5 MOA out of the AXMC and no less. Take the barrel off, clean it well, and re-torque to 55 inch/lbs. When screwing the barrel on, make sure you put the rifle between your knees and hand tighten it as tight as you can. Also remember that a big magnum is going to heat up much faster than the 6.5, so long strings of fire may affect group size. If you are in the same place after this exercise, it is time to re-torque all the scope screws and then try a new scope as diverdon suggests.

Lastly, and I know nobody wants to hear this, but I have certainly experienced a little flinch when first shooting the bigger calibers. You have to rule that out as well.

Just my .02

CJ97

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

It is still a possibility that it is the shooter. There are lots of people that can shoot the smaller cartridges significantly better than they can the magnums. NOT saying this is the problem but saying it is very common.

OP---how often do you shoot the LM compared to the 6.5?
Have you checked the muzzle brake on the LM? Are there any dings, scratches, etc in it?
Are you running both rifles through the magazine? Have you checked to see if the LM magazine could be dinging the projectiles?

Edited to Add: Since you said the LM goes left and right:
Do you spend so much time on the 6.5 trigger that the AI trigger is giving you problems?
Have you noticed that when shooting the LM if you tend to "dig" your right foot in more for bracing then you do with the 6.5?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[diverdon]

Several excellent points to ponder from Thesis.

If none of the above prove fruitful, perhaps you could post looking for a member near you with a AXMC who would be willing to meet you at a range for the purpose of swapping barrels and determining if the groups follow the Barrel the Action or the shooter.

I think some owners should be wiling to do this, especially if you were willing to provide a couple of boxes of factory ammo for the test.

 

[GIXXER2000]

I have an original AI-PSR... now the AMXC and i have had 2 barrels both shoot right at 1/2 moa with 285-ELDX, 300 Berger Hybrid or 277 cutting edge solids. I torque both the PSR and my AI-AT with a preset 6nm (53.1 inch pounds) T handle torque wrench. This did make a big difference getting consistent groups

 

[diverdon]

Another thing to consider is the trigger. When in your living room dry firing do you find one trigger to be better than the other for you?

If you find that the trigger could be part of the issue you might want to replace the trigger with the Competition Match trigger.

 

[regency]

I have 250rounds through my axmc. I also have a barrett 50 with 150 through it, along with several magnum deer rifles. I’m not going to say I’m an expert at large calibers but I would like to say I’m experienced...

I do have the factory 2 stage trigger in the axmc, verses the 1 stage 2lb trigger in my GAP. I find that I enjoy both actually.

I appreciate the recommendations, I will update you all with a 100yd group with factory new Lapua 300gr ammo. Apparently this is the ammo AI tests their rifles with at the factory. If it shoots 1/2” after doing the check list, then I’ll be happy!

 

[regency]

Shot today and this is pretty much the same results I’ve been seeing. I shot a fouler, let it cool. Then, shot 5 shots with a minute and a half rest between each shot.

 

[diverdon]

Dumbest question yet, where the folding stock locks up is it rock solid?

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Are those shots walking L to R, R to L or purely random?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Precision Underground]

I know I get a lot of horizontal when I shoulder the rifle too hard. Possible you are holding on too tight and shouldering too hard anticipating the recoil?

 

[regency]

Dumbest question yet, where the folding stock locks up is it rock solid?

yes, had to unlock it to put it away

 

[regency]

Hi,

Are those shots walking L to R, R to L or purely random?

Sincerely,
Theis

random, first group shot was in the middle then it randomly alternated left/right

 

[diverdon]

Could you handle the recoil with out the MB, if you think you could try a group with it removed.

The MC stands for Multi-caliber, why not buy another barrel in a different caliber and see how that shoots.

 

[regency]

These are 3 (3 shot) groups i fired with my creedmoor doing seating depth tests.

 

[diverdon]

The next time you do anything with the barrel, perhaps you want to remove the fore-end so you can visually inspect the area where the barrel mates to the action. If a speck of crud or lint fell in there it might stop the barrel from seating properly.

 

[regency]

I think I will just be calling AI tomorrow and talking with them. I think everything has been exhausted and I hate to keep throwing $7 factory loads down range trying to chase something that might be past the point of no return.

 

[ironsight1000yard]

Nice “range” there!

 

[Toddmonty]

I'll chime in here.

I have an AX with 6.0CM, 6.5CM, .308Win & AXMC with 6.0CM, 6.5CM, .308Win, .300WM, & .338LM.

I shoot all the calibers regularly. I feel there are 2 factors here affecting the results.

1. When I shoot the AXMC 6CM, it shoots barely tighter groups than the AX, I attribute this to weight. AXMC is 2 lbs heavier.

AS I climb in calibers, I notice the groups are a little more opened up as I climb calibers-1/4MOA to 3/4MOA max on any of them.
I put the .338LM in a led sled last week, I never use those, my group with .300 Berger Hybrids was less than 3/8's MOA. When I shot it off the Bipod and bag, it opened up to hitting all over the 1" dot on the target.

2. The trigger on the stock AX & AXMC rifles. Mine was set at 3.5lbs on the AX & 3.8lbs on my AXMC as delivered. I could regularly shoot reasonable groups on the bench, but it would be a bigger challenge shooting in PRS type matches. I upgraded the trigger to the competition trigger act 8oz. I shoot almost 2x's better in PRS type rest and definitely better on the bench.

I've owned Surgeon, GAP, & McMillan Rifles and they are all good products, bt I wouldn't trade either of my AI's for one of them, especially after the competition trigger came out.

I'm predicting the minimal flinch, or holding to shoulder to tight, ammo not acceptable to the barrel, and/or the heavy trigger in the AXMC as the issue affecting the results of the AXMC not shooting satisfactory.

For what it's worth, I've shot factory Savage rifles with the accutrigger as good or better than the standard AI trigger at 4.0lbs.

 

[mercracing]

In all seriousness you could mail me the barrel and I could shoot it side by side with my 338 barrel and then I can mail it back.

 

[Huskydriver]

I'll chime in here.

I have an AX with 6.0CM, 6.5CM, .308Win & AXMC with 6.0CM, 6.5CM, .308Win, .300WM, & .338LM.

I shoot all the calibers regularly. I feel there are 2 factors here affecting the results.

1. When I shoot the AXMC 6CM, it shoots barely tighter groups than the AX, I attribute this to weight. AXMC is 2 lbs heavier.

AS I climb in calibers, I notice the groups are a little more opened up as I climb calibers-1/4MOA to 3/4MOA max on any of them.
I put the .338LM in a led sled last week, I never use those, my group with .300 Berger Hybrids was less than 3/8's MOA. When I shot it off the Bipod and bag, it opened up to hitting all over the 1" dot on the target.

2. The trigger on the stock AX & AXMC rifles. Mine was set at 3.5lbs on the AX & 3.8lbs on my AXMC as delivered. I could regularly shoot reasonable groups on the bench, but it would be a bigger challenge shooting in PRS type matches. I upgraded the trigger to the competition trigger act 8oz. I shoot almost 2x's better in PRS type rest and definitely better on the bench.

I've owned Surgeon, GAP, & McMillan Rifles and they are all good products, bt I wouldn't trade either of my AI's for one of them, especially after the competition trigger came out.

I'm predicting the minimal flinch, or holding to shoulder to tight, ammo not acceptable to the barrel, and/or the heavy trigger in the AXMC as the issue affecting the results of the AXMC not shooting satisfactory.

For what it's worth, I've shot factory Savage rifles with the accutrigger as good or better than the standard AI trigger at 4.0lbs.

Exactly my thoughts....quit flinching and I bet you will see your group size shrink.

 

[Toddmonty]

In all seriousness you could mail me the barrel and I could shoot it side by side with my 338 barrel and then I can mail it back.

If you have the completion trigger and want to try a 6.5x47 barrel, I'd send it to you at your expense & you send it back when you're done. 30-45 day limit.

 

[regency]

I appreciate all the guys offering to help me out. I spoke with AI today and they want the gun back to take a look. It could possibly be action tolerances as well...
They agree it should not be shooting 1" or larger, especially with the same quality test ammo they use.

I will keep you all up to date.

 

[Sogan]

Why are we skipping over that “shooting range”. I want to hear more about that. What are you using for a back stop? I’d imagine this is your warehouse? And that’s amazing.

 

[Kadams1563]

What would be amazing is hearing that rifle go off indoors lol.

Seriously how do I get to sight in guns indoors with no wind. That would help me out big time with my rim fire ammo testing.

 

[regency]

Why are we skipping over that “shooting range”. I want to hear more about that. What are you using for a back stop? I’d imagine this is your warehouse? And that’s amazing.

I own warehouses and a third party warehousing and logistics company that operates in them. We recycle all of our used cardboard into bales. I will build a wall of them as a backstop. And yes, it is very loud in there. You don't really hear much of anything outside. I don't shoot my Barrett in there.

 

[ironsight1000yard]

Man time to get into the logistics business

I own warehouses and a third party warehousing and logistics company that operates in them. We recycle all of our used cardboard into bales. I will build a wall of them as a backstop. And yes, it is very loud in there. You don't really hear much of anything outside. I don't shoot my Barrett in there.

 

[THEIS]

I own warehouses and a third party warehousing and logistics company that operates in them. We recycle all of our used cardboard into bales. I will build a wall of them as a backstop. And yes, it is very loud in there. You don't really hear much of anything outside. I don't shoot my Barrett in there.

Hi,

You own Patterson Warehouses Inc? You have to be like 5th Generation from founder right?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[regency]

Hi,

You own Patterson Warehouses Inc? You have to be like 5th Generation from founder right?

Sincerely,
Theis

Patterson was sold by the Patterson family the year after it opened. The Galloway family owned it for the longest time.

 

[softcock]

What would be amazing is hearing that rifle go off indoors lol.

Seriously how do I get to sight in guns indoors with no wind. That would help me out big time with my rim fire ammo testing.

-
Did this with our Rimfires a couple times . ( 100+ yrd. indoors) & closed-up no wind with Rimfire rifles . It is pretty BadAss, It feels like a kid on Christmas morning shooting your .22 and Getting 100 yrd. grouping dialed with ammo .
Job we were working on that was gutting/remodel of a ' huge ' sq/ft commercial building that was 100+ yrd. inside end to end . We had the place all to ourselves couple times, locked it up and went to shooting .

 

[plidenbrock]

Another dumb question for pure curiosity: do both rifles have the same type of muzzle brake?

 

[Vargmat]

Well, I can say from experience that it takes a lot more to shoot a magnum rifle to equal or better accuracy of a good short action cartridge like the 6.5CM.
I have a 6,5x47L custom rifle, and similar rifle in 300 WM. I can print sub 0,5 MOA groups with both, but it is a lot easier to do with the 6,5 and it happens a lot more frequently with the smaller rifle. Is there anything wrong with the 300 WM? No not at all. But you have to do everything right, and when you dont, you will get beat up by recoil, flinch from the muzzle blast and start losing concentration, which will show it self on the targets.
I suggest staying with the .338 and leave the smaller rifles for a while, shot it for at least 150-200 rounds and really practise with it. Then things will probably start falling into place. To me, there are no other ways around it. It took me about 200 rounds before I started to really get the feel for my winmag.

 

[jaybigboy34]

Ok I do not think it is the shooter at all. I think you need to have the barrel checked. I had a factory norma mag barrel that I wasted 250 rounds of load development trying to get it to shoot, when I finally gave up and figured out the barrel was out of spec. They sent me a new barrel and the 1 hole groups were back.

 

[wildcats]

Is it possible that maybe the barrel is the problem..

Just a thought.

 

[Shadow_Warrior]

Interesting thread....
I have the same AI rifle and using Prime .338 LM Match ammo I get between 1-1.5 MOA.
With hand loads I've tried two different powders and three different bullets and couldn't seem to get the .338 to shoot. (I've been shooting Mag for over 10 years)

 

[regency]

Interesting thread....
I have the same AI rifle and using Prime .338 LM Match ammo I get between 1-1.5 MOA.
With hand loads I've tried two different powders and three different bullets and couldn't seem to get the .338 to shoot. (I've been shooting Mag for over 10 years)

It's good to hear I'm not the only one with similar results. My friend bought one of the discounted 20" barrel AI 338's from euro optic and he is getting 1/2"-3/4" groups at 200yds and he sent pics to me this weekend. Only other calibers he has shot is a 6mmx47 and various 5.56/223 AR rifles

 

[regency]

Update:

Finally heard back from AI. The best they could attain with my rifle was 1 MOA at 100yds with factory lapua ammo. The person I have been dealing with there said that isn't good enough in his opinion, so now I am a candidate for a new 'heavy barrel' upgrade at no cost.

Once the new barrels come in, they will install, test fire, and hopefully have the gun on its way back.

I'm assuming this is just a slightly heavier contoured barrel that they will be moving to on new guns...

 

[Kickin45]

Interesting thread.

 

[Chardonnay Dave]

LAWD I didn’t want to sort through this chaff and if I’m repeating something, sorry not sorry.

1. We selected .300 over .338 because of recoil.

2. My 6.5 CM configured AXMC shoots better than my .300 WinMag configured AXMC.
-Why?
i) Less recoil
ii) Better BC

It’s like someone said earlier: you cannot compare the two.

In addition: It’s the Indian, not the arrow.

 

[Chardonnay Dave]

Also, I’d be interested to know if they do the barrel swap here in Fredericksburg or make you send it to MHS.

 

[regency]

LAWD I didn’t want to sort through this chaff and if I’m repeating something, sorry not sorry.

1. We selected .300 over .338 because of recoil.

2. My 6.5 CM configured AXMC shoots better than my .300 WinMag configured AXMC.
-Why?
i) Less recoil
ii) Better BC

It’s like someone said earlier: you cannot compare the two.

In addition: It’s the Indian, not the arrow.

Im not following you. You said you didn't read the thread but then you quote a post that is in agreement with your preconceived notion and your not sorry about it, LOL!

You are wrong on your BC's. We are talking about 338 here and not 300mag.

338 has a higher BC than the 6.5, for example: A Berger 300gr bullet has a BC of .818 and a Berger 140gr bullet has a BC of .618. That is just shy of 30% better. Both loads are traveling in the 2730-2750fps range.

AI test fired the rifle and came up with the same results that I did at 100yds with the same ammunition.
A fool is right in his own mind.

 

[Chardonnay Dave]

Well let me know when you get it figured out

 

[Chardonnay Dave]

Still don’t think it’s tge barrel lol

 

[Rory_Fritz]

Still don’t think it’s tge barrel lol

Did you even read anything OP said?

 

[schmi015]

Still don’t think it’s tge barrel lol

Just stop posting until you go back and reread post #40 cause reading and comprehension are fundamental.

 

[regency]

Another Update: Just received an email this morning that the new heavy barrel was installed and test fired. They said it is now shooting well under 1 MOA, looks like it will be back at my place in a few days.

 

[wildcats]

Another Update: Just received an email this morning that the new heavy barrel was installed and test fired. They said it is now shooting well under 1 MOA, looks like it will be back at my place in a few days.

Just like i thought...had a similar problem with an AW MF 338L years ago.