So over it. I need an ACCURATE Scale.

Samuel Whittemore

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  • Apr 8, 2018
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    I need an accurate scale! So friggen over this China cheapy. I've recalibrated and recalibrated... I've situated my bench in a corner... I've held my breath and sat still as a mouse with a cat beading on it... And everytime I weight the same dish of powder I still get wildly different weights: 65.29 - 66.24 - 64.24 - 66.18 - 64.64 !!! what's the point up trying to make work up loads if I can't get an accurate measure!

    Can someone please point me to a scale that's ACCURATE --everytime.
     
    I decided to buy once cry once and got the Sartorius Entris 64-S very accurate easy to calibrate goes down to .001 of a grain. You can find them for about $1000 shipped... So yes it costs but I never looked back.
    Look at Scaleman.com

    "Crying" --yes yes. I can see why. I'm sobbing myself right about now. F! --Thanks.
     
    The more I shoot the more serious I become. I've invested FAR more than I ever thought I would (cripes I never even thought I'd be reloading moreover precision reloading!) and I'm at the point where I can try and be happy with sh*t shots --or go the distance and do it proper. Bloody hell --I wish I had known I was going to end up here I'd have bought the right stuff the FIRST time around. Arrrgh. Oh well. The $ went into the supporting the sport so I can find solace there.
     
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    The RCBS charge master combo has served me well and doesnt cost an arm and a leg.
    If you want more accurate than that some of the gem scales can be found for a good price. Like this one.

    https://www.brownells.com/reloading...3600-59271-124361.aspx?cm_mmc=cse-_-Itwine-_-

    Hey thanks I just saw that one in my hunt. Basically it comes down to:

    Do I go reasonable: Gem Pro http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/gempro-250-digital-scale-review/

    Medium A&D: https://ce-products.myshopify.com/products/fx-120i-reloading-scale-122g-x-0-001g

    Or expensive Satoris: https://scaleman.com/sartorius-entris64-1s-lab-balance.html

    Any others before I jump and make a decision?

    REALLY appreciate all the valuable feedback.
     
    Hey thanks I just saw that one in my hunt. Basically it comes down to:

    Do I go reasonable: Gem Pro http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/gempro-250-digital-scale-review/

    Medium A&D: https://ce-products.myshopify.com/products/fx-120i-reloading-scale-122g-x-0-001g

    Or expensive Satoris: https://scaleman.com/sartorius-entris64-1s-lab-balance.html

    Any others before I jump and make a decision?

    REALLY appreciate all the valuable feedback.

    The 120I is on sale at brownies right now for $599
     
    With A&D scale/trickler system I'd have to get the Area 419 base too of course..

    Anyone wanna buy my brand spanking new RCBS powder hopper complete with the RCBS UPM Mic Adjustment Large Screw + base trickler --and a P.O.S. China scale?
     
    The 120I is on sale at brownies right now for $599
    $500 from Cambridge out of Canada. Worth every penny. A kernel of varget or H4350 is about .02gr. You can watch the scale change when you drop in each kernel I can see needing anything more accurate than that. Unless we want to start cutting kernels in half.... we'll maybe...
     
    And lastly --for entertainment: My friend / teacher just told me I was "out of my bloody mind" He told me "I should be happy with the GemPro." I'm like Oh really? You haven't seen anal retentive about accuracy yet." --(I totally get the comment about cutting grains in half!
    He tells me "I could have a beautiful brand new Reminton 700 for that money." I'm like Oh really? Why not have both? And why a Remington 700 when my dream rifle is a Chey Tac M200?"

    I think I'm buying the A&D --thanks Gents!
     
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    No matter what electronic scale you use you should definitely throw a ferrite magnet or two on the cord. Especially if you have LED or Fluorescent light fixtures close by.

    It really helped out on my Chargemaster.

    https://www.amazon.com/eBoot-Pieces...ords=ferrite+magnet&psc=1&smid=A2C3AMRQC5GI7N


    Wow.. this is getting interesting. Very interesting. And how do flouresent lights affect reloading? And the ferrite does what? I suppose I could Google this but while I'm here...
     
    If you have the money, the A&D is bad ass. If you have a smaller budget, I would suggest a Chargemaster and do a workup to find your Optimum Charge Weight (OCW). The OCW will help you find an accuracy node and the +/- .1 or .2 charge won't affect accuracy as much.
     
    The more I shoot the more serious I become. I've invested FAR more than I ever thought I would (cripes I never even thought I'd be reloading moreover precision reloading!) and I'm at the point where I can try and be happy with sh*t shots --or go the distance and do it proper. Bloody hell --I wish I had known I was going to end up here I'd have bought the right stuff the FIRST time around. Arrrgh. Oh well. The $ went into the supporting the sport so I can find solace there.

    I too have spent WAY more $$$$$$ then I ever though I would. My problem is I caught AI bug and have 4 of them including the original PSR Kit. The thing is the deeper you get into Precision shooting the bigger need for high quality equipment to give you the results you are looking for. It is amazing the smallest thing in the loading room can have huge change at a match or the range. The need to be repeatable every time is critical to getting the desired results.
     
    Seriously people?!? I have shot past 1200 yards with my 6.5 Creed and got hits every pull of the trigger.

    My gun shoots almost one hole groups when I do my part and guess what? I load on a chargemaster.

    I bet those scales are far more accurate but I don’t see the need to spend $899 for an automatic thrower when the one I paid $200 works just fine.
     
    Seriously people?!? I have shot past 1200 yards with my 6.5 Creed and got hits every pull of the trigger.

    My gun shoots almost one hole groups when I do my part and guess what? I load on a chargemaster.

    I bet those scales are far more accurate but I don’t see the need to spend $899 for an automatic thrower when the one I paid $200 works just fine.

    Then I assume you have won several matches if you never miss?

    Chargemasters are known to be off, for most people yes they are just fine but you can afford it might as well buy the FX 120i from the start if your serious about shooting
     
    Then I assume you have won several matches if you never miss?

    Chargemasters are known to be off, for most people yes they are just fine but you can afford it might as well buy the FX 120i from the start if your serious about shooting

    I’m sorry did I claim to have? No I didn’t.

    Oh so only people who win matches know everyone should buy. Quick go get the newest rinky dink item that is the most expensive! Those guys who win matches use it! They also don’t pay for most of the shit they use. If they do pay it’s discounted like a mofo.
     
    I realize sponsored shooters don't pay for a lot of what they use.

    I've never heard of A&D sponsoring someone

    Anyways back to the point if someone is serious about competing they usually end up with a FX 120i
     
    I have a chargemaster and find it is usually plus or minus .1 but that’s as close as you can get with a standard load cell technology. I throw powder a tenth short of my load then pour it on a 10 10 RCBS beam scale and trickle up to the exact load. My 10 10 has been tuned and will repeat to within a kernel of Varget which is good enough. I’d like to have the FX 120I but I doubt I’d ever do without my tuned beam scale. It’s just too reliable and repeatable. With the strain gauge load cell in the chargemaster the most accurate you can get is to always trickle up to the charge, never let it go over and come back down to the charge weight.
    I’m anal about my powder measuring but I’d agree with others that neck tension consistency is probably more important than consistent charge weights but why not be consistent on both?
     
    Just like what the vast majority here has said, go with the FX120i/Autothrow/autotrickler from CE-products and never look back. Is it absolutely necessary to reload and shoot precision rifles....No, not at all. You can do it with a lot of other less expensive scales, balances, tricklers etc... But depends on your time you want to spend in the reloading room vs. time shooting. With that said I just got my A&D FX120i/Autothrow/Autotrickler combo from them and its the best reloading bench money I've spent. Cuts my reloading time in half from the Chargemaster I was loading on and much more accurate. The Chargemaster I had, even with a custom reducing insert, was constantly overthrowing by 0.1 - 0.2 probably every 5 or so charges and at times would sit trickling up to the last 0.1 of a grain for 10-15 seconds. I don't shoot matches either, just like to ring steel at distance but I'm pretty OCD when it comes to my load and the fine details, so having a scale/thrower/trickler combo that is accurate to +/- a single kernel helps me spend less time in the reloading room and more time shooting.
     
    I have used a chargemaster for two years. I also have a GemPro. While I haven’t had the woes that you are seeing with it, I still use the chargemaster for all 3 of my rifle loads.

    A few things that help make mine accurate...
    1. It sits on its own bench, away from the press and any movement.
    2. I wipe it down before each use with a used dryer sheet to remove static.
    3. Calibrate before each use (takes 30 seconds)
    4. Let it warm up for at least 30 mins before use, but mine stays on 24/7.

    The straw trick (youtube this) will also help. Cheap mod and effective.
     
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    "Crying" --yes yes. I can see why. I'm sobbing myself right about now. F! --Thanks.
    They just had a rebate deal on these bad boys you missed out on. I ended up getting an FX 300i for around $390 ish brand new. Scale is a champ though. I use my shitty Hornady Auto Charge to drop an initial charge and finish it with the FX and Auto Trickler. Works really good. Wouldn't look back.
     
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    I have two of these to confirm the weight given by my RCBS Chargemaster. Cheap and good. They are stable, accurate, and usable. The only thing I recommend is to change the auto shutoff to 180 seconds. I have a thread about this scale and how to increase the shutoff timer.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071GYVQF3/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Phones and other electronic items can interfere with digital scales, so keep that in mind.
     
    I started with a RCBS Chargemaster, and I thought that is was great until I started consistently watching my loads on a Chrono. I was using high quality components, and doing everything else in the reloading process by the book, but I could not consistently keep my ES (extreme spread) below 20 fps. Shooting Long Range F-Class, that variation was costing me the difference between a X or a 10.

    I then purchased a Gem Pro trying not to break the bank. I was throwing with the Chargemaster, and then checking with the Gem Pro. I found that the throws from the Chargemaster could vary by +/- a full grain (about 5-6 kernels of powder). With the Gem Pro, I was able to get that down to single kernel of powder. Then my ES dropped down to around 10 fps.

    I was very happy, and then the Gem Pro went completely to $#!@. It would not hold calibration, and it would drift all over the place. Good News, Gem Pro warrantied it and sent me another one.

    As they say, spend once, and cry once, so I sold the Gem Pro and got the A&D 120.

    I have been using it for over 3 years now, and if there is 1 piece of reloading equipment that is a must, that would be it IMHO.

    Regarding some of the comments made about being successful with other products.
    My experience with the RCBS Chargemaster:
    • I have gone through 3 of them in the past 10 years, and none of them performed the same. One of them worked extremely well, and the other 2 were hit or miss.
    • If you reprogram them, and use some device (straw or insert) to help with the trickle, you can increase their performance/consistency.
    • Based on my experiences, the average accuracy that I can expect out of one is +/- a grain. Once again, that may vary based on the unit, or based on the type of powder you are throwing.
    • If a load that is +/- a grain is acceptable, then they will work just fine.
    For me it ultimately comes down to the chrono numbers. If I can’t get the ES to around 10 fps or better, then it is not going to work for what I am trying to accomplish. You ultimately have to look at what ES number you are willing to accept, and what type of device it take to consistently get you there?

    Some other notes:
    • Per some comments above, if you are using an electronic scale, you really need to address all of the potential electronic interference sources. My scales are on a dedicated circuit. If you can’t do that, try to at least make sure nothing on that circuit is in use when the scale is. Watch your lighting source, fluorescent lights are a big issue. I use a voltage regulator/power conditioner between the outlet and power cord for the scale. High quality electronic scales are only as good as the power source that they operate on.
    • Protect the scale when not is use. Dust may not seem like an issue, but it can cause issues.
    • Protect everything involved from static electricity build up. Like the electronic circuit, this can also cause consistency issues.
    • Use high quality calibration weights, and check your calibration very frequently.
    • Make sure your scale is on an isolated surface, movement from other operations can cause issues.
    • Make sure your scale is level, and check it frequently. My scale being about a ¼ of a bubble off on the level can change the measurement by about a full grain.
    If you are good with a load that AVERAGES 1 MOA, then most of this is probably just overkill. But if you are striving for a VERY CONSISTENT 0.5 MOA load or better, this stuff can make a difference.
     
    Y'all may be happy to find I just bit the big one and ordered my Satorious 64. I know most said go with the FX but I am dying to know if the Satarious really can measure down to a single kernal. God help me. I must be insane. I'm sure I'll be happy someday once I can stop the sobbing. But God Dang it... I will have nothing else to blame but my own self for my shit shots now. Thanks everyone. What an awesome list.
     
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    I have a Chargemaster and had varying charge readouts with it. Almost got rid of it as I didn't rely on it. It was toi the point where at 0, with nothing on the scale, it would start making different readings and floating all over.

    Then someone told me to get a power conditioner to plug it into and everything went away.
     
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    I have a Chargemaster and had varying charge readouts with it. Almost got rid of it as I didn't rely on it. It was toi the point where at 0, with nothing on the scale, it would start making different readings and floating all over.

    Then someone told me to get a power conditioner to plug it into and everything went away.
    Which conditioner are you running? About to pick one up.
     
    I'm not an electrician so I'm sure someone can get all technical for you.

    The current coming out of your outlet isn't always the same. Sometimes it spikes or goes down. This effects how the scale works as far as being precise and returning to 0 as well as 'sensing' the same weight each time.
     
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    Power conditioners for modern homes?????...…….. Snake oil gents. Unless you live in some rural world area with constant electrical fluctuations/ outages, humming in devices etc. you don't need a conditioner. Don't waste your money on a silly device. Sure you want to protect your $500 scale from surges, but condition the power on a modern power system???.... Silly.
     
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    Okay... so now bouncing onto auto tricklers. The Dandy Omega one? Or this one for $100. more? https://www.autotrickler.com/auto-trickler.html Actaually the whole set up with the powder thrower and auto trickler looks pretty sweet....

    Found a video on why to buy a conditioner.




    The full auto thrower setup is worth every penny. I've been running one for the better part of a year now. The only downside I've found is that the thrower doesn't like H1000 or H4831, every throw clogs up. Simple solution, I just throw a little under with a regular Redding BR-30 dispenser and then set the pan on the scale for it to trickle up. I don't load anything high volume with those powders anymore so it's not a big deal to slow down a little. For normal sized stick powders it works great though. No issues with H4350 or Varget.
     
    Just to update this thread:

    Hope I'm not duplicating posts here... but for those that have the auto-trickler system made by Adam MacDonald for either the Satarious 64 or the A&D --you'll probably be wanting to check out this new upgrade by Area 419 I just discovered. All glass and aluminum thereby reducing chances of static spark. If it's in keeping with 419's other stuff --we're talking 5 star quality. And it's pretty sweet n' shiny looking too. Should be shipping this week so I'm hoping to have mine by mid to late next.

    Happy 4th of July!

    http://www.area419.com/product/area-419-auto-trickler-complete-accessory-kit/

    big-kit1-e1528570523800-768x621.jpg






     
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    I don't believe the concern is static arc, it's static making the gunpowder kernels stick to the powder thrower or drop tube.

    The design of the glass hopper powder valve got changed and that put a little slow down in delivery. I got everything beside the valve a few days ago and I'm waiting on the valve now. I think it has shipped.

    Hopefully it's all sorted out for people who order in the future.
     
    I don't believe the concern is static arc, it's static making the gunpowder kernels stick to the powder thrower or drop tube.

    Yeah that's the only problem I've had with mine besides the original 3D printed trickler base constantly rotating on the table which the Area 419 base solved that.

    I had certain powders clogging up and I originally thought it was the straw but after taking the thrower apart and looking the inside is just really rough, just nature of the beast with 3D printed. I thought about cleaning it up but figured something would come along eventually and it did. H1000 is pretty much a no go in the factory assembly. H4350 is good but you just have to watch it because about 1/20 charges will clog, I just flick the housing before the trickler can run a lot of powder out and it's a non issue. Varget never clogs though.
     
    So - power . If you want consistent power, buy a cheap uninterruptible power supply unit for a computer. It will condition the power quite nicely.

    Can't stress this enough.

    I was losing my mind with a GemPro and a Chargemaster that would both wander while even sitting empty. Warmed them up, turned the AC off, turned the lights off, got rid of any static and they'd still wander. Drove me fucking crazy.

    Then I bought a power conditioner and the Chargemaster throws the exact same charge every-time since. This was maybe 3-4 years ago.
     
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    I recently replaced my worn out Hornady Lock-n-Load powder dispenser with the RCBS Chargemaster Lite, and finally got to set it up and use it for a run of 200 .30-'06 168SMK Garand accuracy loads. I was very pleasantly surprised at the essentially headache-free experience of using it for the first time.

    IMHO it was simpler and more consistent than the Hornady on its best day.

    I liked the Hornady but the membrane switch panel simply did not hold up. The RCBS uses a hard touch screen that is probably going to eliminate my reliability concerns over time. It's on sale right now at Midway for $186.99.

    I also recommend the Lyman Electronic Scale powder funnel pan. Inexpensive and it just makes the whole powder transfer process a lot easier.

    Greg
     
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    I got my Auto-trickler powder valve yesterday.

    All the Area 419 stuff is super nice.

    I'm going to make a 3/8" or so aluminum base with leveling feet for the whole thing.

    That way I level the base, then level the scale and adjust the Area 419 trickler base for powder flow. After that, if I move things, I just level the base and everything should be ready to go just setting it on top of the base.

    That should make my powder measuring system complete.
     
    The Chargemaster has worked for me for a long time now. Only problems I had were with flake powder --but a drinking straw fixes that for the most part. The finer powders measure and trickle just fine. I always zero it when I turn it on and check the weight against the beam scale. It's always been dead on.

    But what surprised me the most was going over to Dillon gear. SO much easier, so much faster. You can weigh each charge if you like and thread a funnel in the socket and there are people with 3 Chargemasters going at once so it doesn't slow 'em down. Anyway, the powder dump they use on their presses uses a sliding charge bar that's a lot more accurate than those common throwers. So far it's been about .1 grain give or take but usually spot on. Very consistent. I was hesitant about going from a single stage to a progressive but I needed the volume, and there simply is no other way to size and trim, I'm ruined on that. Still have the single stage, but it gets used mostly for odd jobs now.

    Those magnets? They usually come with televisions nowadays, but you can probably find 'em at hardware stores and certainly at electronics parts stores. Should be cheap. I've seen alarm keypads ran next to 110 and the interference would cause the keypad to go into alarm. Maybe only does this 1 in 1000 installs but when one has problems, they recur over and over.