So this Mosin is not a Sniper, but it's Vintage

[lash]

I somehow couldn't resist and picked up this Mosin 91/30, my first vintage military rifle.





It's no collector, just a shooter. From what I can tell, having been made in 1943, it's a wartime arm and as such has rougher machining on the receiver. Also, for some reason the stock has no escutcheons on the sling slots and there seems to be no evidence that there ever were. Since I ordered a sling for it and plan on shooting it slung, I'm trying to decide whether I should add them.

When I got this in my hands and all cleaned up, I was pleased to note how well balanced this rifle is and how well it mounts to shoulder. I'm really looking forward to taking it out and seeing if I can hit a barn door with it.

Edit: Oh yeah, I put the bayonet on just for the picture.

 

[Joop]

Looks like the typical '43 Izhevsk. However, their rough looks kind of have an appeal all their own. While they took shortcuts on cosmetics, a lot of these rifles will still shoot the lights out and they are built like a tank. The sling escutcheons were done away with, for the most part, around 1942 and came back in the stamped, full version later in '43/'44. So, you actually have a stock that's perfectly correct for the year/arsenal of this rifle. However, I would not recommend trying to use the sling for any serious supported shooting. It will flex the entire forend and barrel, resulting in poor accuracy. They were designed to carry the rifle, only, unfortunately.

My "everyday" shooter is a '43 Izhevsk, even rougher looking than yours. But, I can still hit gallon jugs with it out to about 450 yards using surplus light ball. Great guns!

John

 

[roggom]

The war time Izzy did not have escutcheons, the Russians were cranking them out by the millions.

Nice rifle, I have the most fun shooting my old MN's.

 

[lash]

Thanks for the info.

I'm pretty pleased with the rifle and I guess I'll not shoot it slung. It still feels really great. For a longish rifle it balances so well that I can tell it will be fun to shoot. I'm going to have to keep my eye out for some ammo deals, as the LGS only had 2 boxes of privi partisan in stock so I bought those. They aren't the cheapest.

 

[Tango down]

Thanks for the info.

I'm pretty pleased with the rifle and I guess I'll not shoot it slung. It still feels really great. For a longish rifle it balances so well that I can tell it will be fun to shoot. I'm going to have to keep my eye out for some ammo deals, as the LGS only had 2 boxes of privi partisan in stock so I bought those. They aren't the cheapest.

Congrats on your "new" rifle, you will be able to hit something much smaller than a barn door with it.
Have fun and good shooting.

 

[lash]

Can I ask where any of you have been successful at getting good surplus ammo for this?

Also, in your opinion(s), which of the surplus types currently available seem to be worth the money for consistency, accuracy (relative), etc.?

Thanks.

BTW, cleaning it the first time was an interesting experience. That barrel was loaded with copper and other crud. I don't believe that I got it all out, but, following the advice I read on a mosin board, I'll shoot it some and then clean some more.

 

[Joop]

As with any ammo, surplus or commercial, you'll have to see what the gun likes. Sometimes they'll surprise you by shooting better with the cheapest crap available, while the more expensive stuff doesn't group as well. It's a trial and error process, unfortunately. I will say, however, that of the commonly available Russian surplus, the stuff made at Novosibirsk (Factory 188 headstamp) is usually of a tighter tolerance and better performance than, say, factory 60, which is also pretty commonly found. I've had really good luck with the Romanian silver tip (as good or better than Russian 188) that was brought in a couple years ago, but it's harder to find, now. Some lots of Bulgarian can be good, but they seem to be hit or miss. The two makes of surplus ammo with the best reputation are probably Czech silver tip light ball from the late 1960's and 1970's dated Hungarian light ball. Both are harder to find and usually quite a bit more expensive than the others if the seller knows what they are.

It's typical to have to shoot/clean a few times before getting all the crud out. Also, if this rifle has not been shot stateside, or the sights not adjusted, you may find that it shoots high and right without the bayonet, as they were usually sighted with the bayonet attached. So, you will likely have to drift the front sight to correct the windage. As for shooting high, that's just typical. There are ways to correct that with the front sight post, but I just leave mine as they are. These rifles are capable WAY beyond 100 yards (which is normally how I shoot them), so shooting high at that range is something I rarely even notice any more. Take it out and have some fun with it. Be sure your action screws are tight before you start (tighten the front one first, then rear, then check front again) and then after the first 3-5 rounds, check them again, as the action will seat itself at that point. They are notorious for working loose, especially if the gun hasn't been fired/tightened in a while.

Happy shooting!

John

 

[roggom]

There are various vendors who sell the 54r, but availability and price will vary. Try ammoseek and follow some links, you will get an idea of the pricing. Spam cans used to go for $79 a few years ago, some can still be found for $89-$119 , still around $.20-.27 a round, not too bad. The good thing about the PRVI ammo, the cases are reloadable. So with one Mosin you can get a simple lee classic loader(if you dont reload already) and some H4350 or Varget and try to find a load that shrinks your groups.

Most of the bullet manufactures make .311 bullets, or try to find some surplus pulled bullets.

You may not be able to find an MOA load, but realistically can get groups down to a consistent 2 moa with a full power load.


Again, I find shooting the MN the most fun because I am not expecting cloverleaf shots, just nailing steel out to 500Y or plinking clays at various distances makes for a cheap and fun shoot.


7.62x54R rifle ammo ammunition - AmmoSeek.com

 

[lash]

Thanks again for all the input, this promises to be a fun adventure.

John,
I appreciate the heads up about the action screws, I likely would not have thought of that. I've already read about the likelihood that it might shoot high and right, so we'll see what happens first time out. I'm hoping for this weekend, Lord willing and the creek don't rise...

As to reloading, a Lee classic turret set up has been on my wish list for most of this year and is a target for around Christmas for me. I used to load for my .357 20 years ago with a giant single Hollywood press that I still have, but it's a bit time consuming to do it that way. My goal is to get the garage cleaned out over Thanksgiving weekend and to make room for a small reloading set-up.

 

[Pinecone]

As I understand it, the sights are normally set up for the rifle to be shot WITH the bayonet on.

I found a good You Tube video on doing a proper trigger job (no shims) on one. We have a repro sniper, and I got the 8+ pounds, 4" of creep (only a slight exaggeration) down to a 4 pound, fairly crisp trigger.

 

[Paddywagon]

These are fun rifles! I have 4 of them myself including one of the snipers with the PU scope. If you are willing to handload you can get surprizingly good accuracy out of these! The key is figuring out bore size. Over the years I have seen bores range from .310 all the way up to .315 depending on the year and where they were manufactured. Best thing I found is to slug the barrel then order a Lee bullet mold of your choice in weight and sizer die for the projectile. Chasing accuracy in these old vintage rifles is a trip!

 

[LuckyScott]

I am a Mosin guy, and own a boatload of them. They are very addicting! So interesting and they just feel right. I love em when they look like they have been thru hell and back. If only they could talk, the stories they would tell.

 

[lash]

You know, when I ordered this rifle I hesitated, because I know how easy it will be for me to get sucked into yet another shooting related obsession. My wife is very understanding and knows that this is a healthy hobby, but it's hard to keep a good balance, lol.

I love to shoot and fell in love with vintage rifles back when I was a teenager. Between the Krag my Dad had (kicked like a mule) and the Japanese war rifle I restored for my Grandfather, I got a real taste for these warhorses. It's been many years since, but here I am.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I bought a '43 Izshevsk, after I was given a can of 188 spamcan ammo. Over the next year, I tried out a succession of scout mount/scope arrangements as a project, and currently have three 91/30's (the others are '38 Izshevsk's), all equipped similarly with 2-7x42 scout scope setups. The '43 is finally zeroed at 200 and delivers groups at or just under 2MOA with the 188 surplus ammo. The scope mounting just clears the upper handguard, requires no mods to the rifle besides removing the rear sight mount, and the 200yd zero is on at 70yd, 3"-4" high at 100yd, and back on at 200yd.

Still need to zero the other two and then some handloading should ensue. Will be working with PPU (Prvi-Partizan) brass, IMR-4064, and HDY ".303" 150gr SP Interlocks. Will also be working with 123/124gr bullets pulled from 7.62x39 TulAmmo as reduced recoil loads for my 110lb granddaughter.

I have a preliminary load with the HDY 150gr and 49.0gr of IMR-4064 that seems to function well enough for a deer hunting load (this load is given as a reference only, start low and work up for your particular rifle). Always verify that your rifle will function properly with factory ammo before trying it with handloads.

While I have invested an insanely excessive amount of time and cash to perfect the scope arrangement, the results are being applied to four rifles in total; and the entire setup, counting only the parts that actually work, ends up being very reasonable. I figured it was a project that someone had to do eventually, and decided it might as well be me.

Greg

 

[lash]

Greg, I have been following your thread and almost posted my info in it, but decided to let your thread stay clean and focused. Your research has not gone without notice, but for now I'm going to try and take it slow as I have some other projects in the works also. I will admit that reading about these MNs here and elsewhere did influence my weak will...

Right now, I'm trying to clear some time on my weekend schedule to get out there and make some smoke and hopefully some holes in paper and ringing steel.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

It pleases me greatly to read that the work and the posts have not gone unnoticed.

There have been a number of times when things went poorly before they went well, and it occasionally led me to doubt that the M-N could be truly tamed. I tell you baldly that the term 'tamed' is relative. This is not a project intended to produce a surgical instrument.

But reality has been bent far enough to call the project a qualified success. A relatively crude surplus rifle, shooting 2MOA with lowball surplus ammo, that can be sighted and adjusted using a scope without butchering the original implement, and without sacrificing an excessive amount of time and cash (for the beneficiaries of the project, at least), and even preserving the ability to load with stripper clips, meets my admittedly lenient criteria for success.

I suspect that the 91/30 and the Spamcan Ammo may represent one of the last great chances for a younger generation to be able to afford something that can shoot cheaply for fun, to hunt, and still permits an everyman's implement with which to back up the 2A. AR's are lovely implements, but their cost, legality, and availability have gone orbital; while the 7.62x54R still demands respect from even a more distant viewpoint. I would not want to have to face down my own quartet.

All that remains is the load development aspect.

My first personally owned vintage rifle was a Chinese SKS, rapidly followed by an M1903, and an M-1 Garand. One could do far worse for a first acquisition than a 91/30.

Greg

 

[lash]

That reminds me, I need to pick up some stripper clips.

I'll also follow your load development efforts, as that will eventually follow for me too. I know that often one rifle will like what another does not, but more often there are similarities, at least in the starting point. On the other hand, now that I think about it (having read that the chambers and bores often vary), a preferred load for one might vary considerably from another. Probably the best way to start would be to slug the chamber(s) and barrel(s) to see how much, if any, variation there is.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I suspect that yet another load development aspect may be the muzzle counterboring that the arsenals did to offset cleaning rod wear.

Slugging may be interesting but I'm not going to bother. The spamcan ammo dimensions tell me all I really want to know about bullet diameters, etc.

Going beyond that exceeds my very narrow limits regarding how much lipstick I'm really willing to put onto this particular herd of pigs. Practicality and my miserly nature are the first hurdles any embellishment has to pass before I will consider it seriously.

These Stripper Clips have worked well for me.

Greg

 

[lash]

Thanks for the link Greg. I use Amazon quite often and those had free shipping so I just went ahead and ordered them.

As to your approach to the load development, I am of the same ilk, even though I know there are many who take it to the 'nth' degree and enjoy doing so.

 

[Joop]

lash,

Just as important (sometimes even more so) as slugging the bore, is determining the amount of freebore/chamber length that these rifles have with a particular bullet. When you're shooting commercial/milsurp ammo, you are pretty much at the mercy of what comes in the box. However, when you start handloading, this will be a big factor in getting the most out of a particular rifle/bullet combo. I've found wide variations for 91/30 rifles in this area, as well. For example, using the Sierra 174gr. MatchKing, one rifle will have the bullet at the lands with a COAL of 2.925". The next could be as long as 3.085" (basically, the bullet is barely sitting in the neck of the case, if it's even able to at all!). Some of this could be due to throat erosion. Some of it is from manufacturing difference, however. Whether to jump or jam the bullet is another question and there are a lot of variables involved in that, as well. This is all in your future, of course, but I just thought I would throw it out there. Someday you're going to say to yourself, "Now, what did that guy say about OAL, again?" and that's exactly why I mention it. So you'll come back to figure it out later, when you get started handloading.

John

 

[Bill Larson]

I have one made in 1937 with hammer/cycle.....sporterised..... really clean............could someone educate me on it......

 

[lash]

I have one made in 1937 with hammer/cycle.....sporterised..... relly clean............could someone educate me on it......

Bill,
While there are some of the most knowledgeable people here on this board and they are always willing to share that knowledge, I found a great compilation of Mosin-Nagant knowledge on a sight called: russian-mosin-nagant-forum. I didn't link it so as to not cause any forum violations, but it's easy to find and has some FAQs and stickies that summarize the history of the MNs as a group. My reading there and here makes up the sum total of my knowledge, so am not the one to educate you, but am enjoying learning about them myself.

Post some pics!

 

[Joop]

I have one made in 1937 with hammer/cycle.....sporterised..... relly clean............could someone educate me on it......

Should be an Izhevsk arsenal M91/30.

My favorite forum for all things Mosin is the Mosin Collector's Forum at Gunboards. For reference sites, check out mosinnagant.net and 7.62x54r.com, as well.

John

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Lash; everything I've used in this project was obtained from Amazon, so can provide links for the scope, rings, stock pack, buttpad extension, slip-on recoil pad, soft case, sling, sling stud/loops, and even a decent Repro USGI Garand/Springfield ammo belt that holds 20 full strippers very neatly if you like.

Greg

 

[lash]

Greg,
I think that it would be a good idea to put that all in your thread, so that people like myself can go back there when we have the $ and inclination to make use of your research and findings.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Just completed listing those links.

Greg