Rifle Scopes So, what about Leupold Mark 5 ?

longshot2000

longshot2000

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    #1
    I am baiting you...

    I got some heat on my scope blog yesterday for not including Leupold. Uugh. So, I wanted to share this, with the caveat that I am a nobody. I just love scopes, and have fun with them. I am an equal opportunity scope slut. I have bought so many, and used them and sold them the next month that I decided to start a business selling scopes and rifles. Hmm. I wonder if SCOPE SLUT might be a better name for a business. :unsure: If you use it, I will come after you !!!:mad:

    Anyway, I am new to blogging, so like my 80+ year old mother who recently found Facebook, I am a 50+ year old who has found blogging. Here is what I wrote about the Mark 5: Charlie's comments on Leupold Mark 5
     
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    #5
    longshot2000 said:
    I am baiting you...

    I got some heat on my scope blog yesterday for not including Leupold. Uugh. So, I wanted to share this, with the caveat that I am a nobody. I just love scopes, and have fun with them. I am an equal opportunity scope slut. I have bought so many, and used them and sold them the next month that I decided to start a business selling scopes and rifles. Hmm. I wonder if SCOPE SLUT might be a better name for a business. :unsure: If you use it, I will come after you !!!:mad:

    Anyway, I am new to blogging, so like my 80+ year old mother who recently found Facebook, I am a 50+ year old who has found blogging. Here is what I wrote about the Mark 5: Charlie's comments on Leupold Mark 5
    Click to expand...
    Nice write-up Charlie, I enjoyed it and I think you're spot on with Leupold, the Mark 5HD is interesting but not ground breaking and I don't like the 35mm tubes; however, the price is right if the performance is there. The problem with Leupold has been that the price for performance is often not there, you've often been able to find better scopes at better prices in the tactical market and that is why I think Leupold has struggled. Once the Military gets over their love affair with Leupold I think it will force them into building more innovative and price competitive scopes for the tactical market. I want Leupold to make some scopes I can get excited about, but outside of the uber expensive Mark 8 3.5-25x56 I have not been able to get excited about them.
     
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    #6
    I agree with a lot of what you are saying after handling one at SHOT, but the one place Leupold delivered on their 3-18x scope was the weight. Assuming it tracks, I'd put in the same class as the Bushnell LRTS, Nightforce SHV 5-20x, Burris XTR 4-20x for use on a 6.5 Grendel or lighter weight .308 or 6.5 CM AR10. I wish a lot more of the expensive ultra shorts were well under 30 ozs.
     
    #7
    I liked the Mark 5 3.6-18x44 and plan to test one when the opportunity presents.

    I am probably in the minority here, but I think moving to a 35mm tube is a good move for Leupold. That gives them some uniformity with Mark 8 (and I think Mark 6 will be either re-deisgned or made LE/Mil only option at some point, like the Mark 4). Also, keep in mind that Leupold also makes and sells mounts, so they can do whatever diameter they want if they are so inclined. Either way, there are enough 35mm mounts out there.

    The outstanding feature of the Mark 5 is still compactness, and I suspect that the turrets have everything they learned on the Mark 6 incorporated into them. If I were to be a betting man, I would bet that the 3.6-18x44 Mark 5 will outperform the 3-18x44 Mark 6 if you put them side by side. Also, while illumination is still expensive, it is not as expensive as on the Mark 6.

    I think they need to do more with reticles, but it is workable as is.

    I plan to test one.

    ILya
     
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    #8
    Duffman1975 said:
    where are you seeing 10.5 per rotation? Everything i have seen says 10 mils per turn. I am assuming you are doing 31.5/3? The dial lets you go .5 mil below your zero lock and i am assuming the extra 1 mil is on the 3rd rev before it "locks out".
    Click to expand...

    I believe the Leupold rep said it in the video located in the OP’s blog.
     
    #10
    So in the write up there is a mention of going backwards and mark 4 glass in a new housing..is that true? That is a bit disappointing if so. I was expecting something along the lines of a mark 6 with a cheaper price tag.
     
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    #11
    Mk IV glass isn't terrible but it isn't great, with a 2k price tag I would think the glass would be improved.

    ETA the article states they improved the MK IV glass and it has an HD coating. I would assume the glass is better butt not of Mk VI quality.
     
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    #12
    5RWill said:
    So in the write up there is a mention of going backwards and mark 4 glass in a new housing..is that true? That is a bit disappointing if so. I was expecting something along the lines of a mark 6 with a cheaper price tag.
    Click to expand...

    I think you could probably split hairs on that. My point was that L went 4, 6, 8, then back to 5. So, the 5 is an improvement on the 4, and thus, from an excitement standpoint, a bit of a yawn.

    My impression of the scope was that it was very much like the 6 in look, feel, turrets, so you can think of a Mark 6 with a cheaper price tag as well. L rep's did say the glass was improved from the Mark 4, but I do not know how it compares to the Mark 6, in terms of coatings. Could be the same, just with 5x instead of 6x.

    Ilya said he would test it.
     
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    #13
    They look like nice scopes, but their reticle options are still shit. Eurooptic has them listed $1,799-2,799 currently. There are so many better options out there at that price. Vortex Razor, Bushnell Elite, Steiner T5Xi, etc. Hell S&B and Kales can be had when you get close to $2,799.
     
    #14
    918v said:
    I believe the Leupold rep said it in the video located in the OP’s blog.
    Click to expand...

    It's 10.5 mils per rev with the ability to dial down .5 mils for a night vision poi shift. As well so the numbers stagger on the dial, if they stacked up the font would be smaller and harder to read.
     
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    #16
    I'll be perfectly honest.p
    GhostFace said:
    Mk IV glass isn't terrible but it isn't great, with a 2k price tag I would think the glass would be improved.

    ETA the article states they improved the MK IV glass and it has an HD coating. I would assume the glass is better butt not of Mk VI quality.
    Click to expand...

    I think there is some variation in Mk. IV glass. The 34mm 6.5-20x 34mm scope supposedly has great glass.
     
    #17
    m6z said:
    They look like nice scopes, but their reticle options are still shit. Eurooptic has them listed $1,799-2,799 currently. There are so many better options out there at that price. Vortex Razor, Bushnell Elite, Steiner T5Xi, etc. Hell S&B and Kales can be had when you get close to $2,799.
    Click to expand...
    But all of those are heavier than the mk5. They’re only better options if you don’t value weight.
     
    #18
    Monstershot said:
    But all of those are heavier than the mk5. They’re only better options if you don’t value weight.
    Click to expand...
    I think this is, in large part, why the Vortex AMG 6-24x50 has done so well, they kept the weight down and provided great turrets with great glass and an great reticle. We know nothing yet about how good the Mark 5HD is regarding glass and turrets, but we do know what they have for reticles and they are okay but not great. I wanted to love the Mark 6, I truly did, I really like its specs but hated the first turrets they came out with (the new low profile turrets are much more usable) and their glass was subject, that along with a $4000 price tag for an illuminated version and the plane Janeness of the TMR reticle has kept me away. The new Mark 5HD offers 3.6-18x44 at close to the same weight as the Mark 6 but at a much lower price point and I think that alone will help it be a much better seller for Leupold. I still think a $500 upcharge for illumination is a bit much but certainly not as bad as the Mark 6's $1000+ upcharge! With that being said, the $2300 price tag of the illuminated Mark 5HD 3.6-18x44 will most likely be far less than the Kahles K318i 3.5-18x50 which will be its closest competitor and I think the ZC420 4-20x50 will be in another league. What we do know is that we don't know anything other than specs and reticles for these scopes, I am very much looking forward to ILya's review of all these scopes. Even if Leupold nails it on the glass and turrets I would still have difficulty considering it until they offered an illuminated SKMR/MR4/MSR2 type of reticle.
     
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    #19
    Leupold mk5
    3.6-18 is 26oz
    5-25 is 30oz

    Steiner T5Xi
    3-15 is 29.8oz
    5-25 is 33oz

    Bushnell DMR 2
    3.5-21 is 32.5oz

    Yeah, the Razor HD and the S&B 5-25 are porkers, but most of the options are within 3-4 ounces.
    Monstershot said:
    But all of those are heavier than the mk5. They’re only better options if you don’t value weight.
    Click to expand...
     
    #20
    longshot2000 said:
    I think you could probably split hairs on that. My point was that L went 4, 6, 8, then back to 5. So, the 5 is an improvement on the 4, and thus, from an excitement standpoint, a bit of a yawn.

    My impression of the scope was that it was very much like the 6 in look, feel, turrets, so you can think of a Mark 6 with a cheaper price tag as well. L rep's did say the glass was improved from the Mark 4, but I do not know how it compares to the Mark 6, in terms of coatings. Could be the same, just with 5x instead of 6x.

    Ilya said he would test it.
    Click to expand...

    Well, if that is the case then how do they come to terms with the Mk 6, which the glass isn't as good as it should be for the MSRP. And to charge an arm and leg for the illuminated version is criminal. Unless they change the glass in the Mk6, they just killed all of its sales.
     
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    #21
    m6z said:
    Bushnell DMR 2
    3.5-21 is 32.5oz

    Yeah, the Razor HD and the S&B 5-25 are porkers, but most of the options are within 3-4 ounces.
    Click to expand...
    The DMR II is over 35oz, Bushnell lists it at 34oz on their website and on my scale it was over an ounce heavier (35.4oz to be exact) whereas all my other scopes have been almost spot on to manufacturers specs but the Bushnell has always been off, even with the old DMR. Not sure what scales they use at Bushnell but I think they need to be re-calibrated.

    But I get what Monstershot is saying, the Leupy's are lighter than a lot of others and if you're looking to squeeze off every possible ounce from your build then the scope is one area where that can happen. I'd rather have the better glass and reticle of the Minox 5-25 at 34.2 oz or better yet, if you're trying to save weight take the AMG 6-24x50 at 28.8oz with a better reticle and most likely better glass or for about the same weight you can get a March 5-40x56 and get an extra 15x of magnification on the top end. I don't think anyone will buy this scope because it's innovative or offers something other scopes don't, they'll buy it because it is a Leupold and within their budget, if you like the reticle offerings from Leupold and the 5HD glass is up to par and the turrets track, then this could be a great scope for some. I think the big question for Leupold is that they have rarely made scopes priced competitively with other manufacturers in the tactical market, it would seem they are trying to do that finally with the 5HD so I'm curious to hear back from users who can compare to similar priced optics and I'm hoping that Leupold has a winner with this series.
     
    Last edited:
    #22
    JR869 said:
    Well, if that is the case then how do they come to terms with the Mk 6, which the glass isn't as good as it should be for the MSRP. And to charge an arm and leg for the illuminated version is criminal. Unless they change the glass in the Mk6, they just killed all of its sales.
    Click to expand...
    I'm not sure the sales of the Mark 6 in the civilian market was ever big or intended to be. I believe it has been discussed before that the Mark 6 prices are due to military contracts and the inflation that occurs from having to maintain a particular price point. I do not know all the details around this but it has been discussed before in previous threads.
     
    #24
    I'm very curious about the 3.6-18 Tremor 3 model. I really want to believe Leupold has gotten their stuff together and these will track unlike the MK6's, and I know they have the capability of making really great stuff. I don't doubt that the glass is at least pretty damn good, I don't expect S&B or Hensoldt glass at the price point but it's probably pretty good. My concern is tracking and turret feel. Leupold has had some really shitty feeling turrets and has had their fair share of tracking issues. I'm glad to see that they finally figured out the turret locks on these and didn't go with those annoying pinch turrets for the MK5.

    I could care less about the 35mm tube assuming the scope is solid. Anyone using it is going to buy a mount specifically for the optic so it makes no difference unless you just want to use some stuff you have laying around already. IF the scopes don't live up to the requirements and someone were to sell it they'd then have an oddball mount laying around too. That'd be my only concern. Other than that, the bigger the tube, the more crap you can stuff in them, the more travel you can have, and the more light can pass through.

    The 10.5 mil per rev is kinda stupid I agree (why not just do 10 and have a touch more spacing?) but if these things track, the turrets feel acceptable, and the reliability is solid then I would absolutely run a few.
     
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    #26
    redneckbmxer24 said:
    ...the bigger the tube, the more crap you can stuff in them, the more travel you can have, and the more light can pass through.
    Click to expand...

    That last part is a common misconception. A larger tube doesn't necessarily pass more light through the scope, this blog post sums it up pretty well - https://www.swarovskioptik.com/ohota/blog/RS_tube_size_matters_but_not_much

    Another misconception is light transmission, I realize that S&B and Zeiss both have great marketing materials about how their "High Transmission" scopes are "brighter" than other scopes and advertise 95% (Zeiss HT) or 96% (S&B Ultra Bright) light transmission ratings, but what they are doing is telling you how much light is able to pass through each anti-reflective coated surface. The best anti-reflective coatings will generally yield about 0.25% reflectance or slightly more per surface. This means 99.75% (or slightly less) of the light is not reflected, and by theory passes through the coating until it reaches the next glass element and if that is coated then another .25% of light is lost. Take a common scope that has maybe 15 glass elements in it and multiply 15 x .25 = 3.75 and that equals the amount of light loss or subtracting it from 100 gives you a light transmission rating of 96.25%; however, this is not telling the full story because what they aren't accounting for is the amount of absorption which occurs with each glass element. Clever marketing strategy but not telling the whole story. Years ago, one of my first reviews had a US Optics 3.8-22x44 go up against a Bushnell Elite Tactical DMR 3.5-21x50, my expectation was that the Bushnell would perform "brighter" than the USO simply because of physics, the Bushnell has a 50mm objective and the USO had a 44mm objective, but what I found was that the USO actually performed better in low light than the Bushnell and I couldn't explain it until the above was explained to me recently by someone well known within the optics industry. The other factor is our eyes ability to actually perceive this "brightness" as there are other contributing factors that may cause our brain to think an image through the scope is brighter than when looking through another scope with similar specs. Specs and marketing are not the full story, they are maybe 3/4 of the book, but the final chapter is what your eye tells you. I am not an expert in this field but one thing I have learned from having used many different scopes is that not everything is all its cracked up to be and the best way to determine if a scope is right for you is for you to use that scope, and better yet, compare two scopes in low light and you might find nuances to one that you prefer over the other, keeping in mind that many scopes perform very well in ideal lighting conditions, but when conditions are not ideal, that's when you want a scope that is going to allow you to quickly identify your target and in my experience some scopes do this better than others.
     
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    #27
    Curious how the mk5 will compare to the ATACR f1, both with the tremor3 reticle. the mk5 is four ounces lighter, field of view looks to be close to the same and 10 mils per turn is faster under stress to me than 12 if dialing.
     
    #29
    wjm308 said:
    The DMR II is over 35oz, Bushnell lists it at 34oz on their website and on my scale it was over an ounce heavier (35.4oz to be exact) whereas all my other scopes have been almost spot on to manufacturers specs but the Bushnell has always been off, even with the old DMR. Not sure what scales they use at Bushnell but I think they need to be re-calibrated.

    But I get what Monstershot is saying, the Leupy's are lighter than a lot of others and if you're looking to squeeze off every possible ounce from your build then the scope is one area where that can happen. I'd rather have the better glass and reticle of the Minox 5-25 at 34.2 oz or better yet, if you're trying to save weight take the AMG 6-24x50 at 28.8oz with a better reticle and most likely better glass or for about the same weight you can get a March 5-40x56 and get an extra 15x of magnification on the top end. I don't think anyone will buy this scope because it's innovative or offers something other scopes don't, they'll buy it because it is a Leupold and within their budget, if you like the reticle offerings from Leupold and the 5HD glass is up to par and the turrets track, then this could be a great scope for some. I think the big question for Leupold is that they have rarely made scopes priced competitively with other manufacturers in the tactical market, it would seem they are trying to do that finally with the 5HD so I'm curious to hear back from users who can compare to similar priced optics and I'm hoping that Leupold has a winner with this series.
    Click to expand...

    The innovation that people will buy the Leupold for is weight and size. I confess the mk5 is not as extreme a difference at 26oz compared to the 23.3oz of the mk6. But they’re both right around 12” in length too. No one but March comes close.

    With more powerful calibers becoming popular in AR15 form factors the market for lighter weight and shorter tactical scopes is currently greatly under served. The vaunted Vortex AMG is no where close to filling this role. Sure it’s only a couple ounces heavier but at 6-24 it’s not a mid range but a long range scope, and its 15” long and $3700.
     
    #30
    Monstershot said:
    The innovation that people will buy the Leupold for is weight and size. I confess the mk5 is not as extreme a difference at 26oz compared to the 23.3oz of the mk6. But they’re both right around 12” in length too. No one but March comes close. With more powerful calibers becoming popular in AR15 form factors the market for lighter weight and shorter tactical scopes is currently greatly under served.
    Click to expand...
    I hear what you're saying with better and better ballistics in the AR15 form factor, there is certainly slim pickens when it comes to short, light and medium range and that's where these Leupy's rule. The March is certainly in the running but a bit more expensive and the S&B US 5-20 is somewhat close in weight but a lot more expensive. The NF ATACR F1 comes close but again is more expensive and I like the zoom range of the Leupold better. If you don't need illumination and are okay with the TMR reticle the $1800 price is definitely more appealing than most.
    Monstershot said:
    The vaunted Vortex AMG is no where close to filling this role. Sure it’s only a couple ounces heavier but at 6-24 it’s not a mid range but a long range scope, and its 15” long and $3700.
    Click to expand...
    I wasn't suggesting the AMG as an alternative to the 3.6-18 but to the 5-25, when compared to the 5-25 the Vortex is lighter, shorter but has just as good of FOV at the bottom (20.4' for AMG and 20.5' for 5HD) and only gives up 1x at the top end but with a much better reticle IMO. And anyone who pays $3700 for an AMG would be out of their mind, you can get an AMG from any Hide vendor for $2500 MAP and if you sweet talk them you'll get it for less. The 5-25/6-24 market has much more competition vs the Ultra Shorts.
     
    #32
    wjm308 said:
    I think the big question for Leupold is that they have rarely made scopes priced competitively with other manufacturers in the tactical market, it would seem they are trying to do that finally with the 5HD so I'm curious to hear back from users who can compare to similar priced optics
    Click to expand...


    $500 for illumination is not being competitive, especially when it's standard on everything from a Leapers to a Razor.
     
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    #33
    GhostFace said:
    $500 for illumination is not being competitive, especially when it's standard on everything from a Leapers to a Razor.
    Click to expand...
    It's definitely more competitive than the $1000+ for illumination in the Mark 6, and the overall price of $2300 for illuminated puts it close to the other scopes in it's class vs the Mark 6 at $4000 which was way above its class.
     
    #35
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    #36
    JR869 said:
    "The Mark 5 scope is nothing short of a scientific masterpiece. At an MSRP of $2500, a Lifetime of Guaranteed enjoyment, and the fact that even a novice distance shooter was ringing steel with ease – this is one instance where the juice more than justifies the squeeze."

    HAHA this made me laugh.

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/01/22/shot-2018-leupold-brings-heat-mark-5-5-25x56-m5c3/
    Click to expand...

    I was partial to the opening salvo- "Let me start by admitting that I’m not a distance shooter. In fact, I’ve never had the opportunity to shoot farther than 200 yards."

    Yeah, thats what I want in my long distance scope reviewer. At least he was upfront though.
     
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    #37
    JR869 said:
    "The Mark 5 scope is nothing short of a scientific masterpiece. At an MSRP of $2500, a Lifetime of Guaranteed enjoyment, and the fact that even a novice distance shooter was ringing steel with ease – this is one instance where the juice more than justifies the squeeze."
    Click to expand...
    Does the author not realize that there's at least a dozen other scopes that have been out much longer than the Leupold that can do the same thing as good or better. Obviously Leupold is a huge name in shooting sports and maybe this will bring more awareness for our sport, I don't mind that all in fact I encourage it; however, thinking that Leupold is "bringing the heat" with the 5-25x56 is a bit bold with all the competition that has already established itself. But who knows, maybe the Mark 5HD will have better glass and turrets than Tangent Theta and shock us all...
     
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    #38
    wjm308 said:
    Does the author not realize that there's at least a dozen other scopes that have been out much longer than the Leupold that can do the same thing as good or better. Obviously Leupold is a huge name in shooting sports and maybe this will bring more awareness for our sport, I don't mind that all in fact I encourage it; however, thinking that Leupold is "bringing the heat" with the 5-25x56 is a bit bold with all the competition that has already established itself. But who knows, maybe the Mark 5HD will have better glass and turrets than Tangent Theta and shock us all...
    Click to expand...

    But it is a "scientific masterpiece" you know.
     
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    #40
    spife7980 said:
    I was partial to the opening salvo- "Let me start by admitting that I’m not a distance shooter. In fact, I’ve never had the opportunity to shoot farther than 200 yards."

    Yeah, thats what I want in my long distance scope reviewer. At least he was upfront though.
    Click to expand...

    True, it's not like it was the spotter giving him corrections or the three magazines it took, it was the all the scopes doing. :p
     
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    #43
    koshkin said:
    Where did you get that? The scopes I saw had the M5C3 turret with 10 mrad per turn adjustment range.
    Click to expand...

    The dial in their web pic shows 10 with another .5 Mils before hitting zero. Maybe it was a marketing mixup, rendering the scope with the wrong dial markings. For under ~$2k or under mark though it seems like a great compact scope option (assuming it tracks better than some of their other products).

    In for any first hand reviews in the coming weeks. Called them last week and they said they are already in production and shipping.
     

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    #45
    Subwrx300 said:
    The dial in their web pic shows 10 with another .5 Mils before hitting zero. Maybe it was a marketing mixup, rendering the scope with the wrong dial markings. For under ~$2k or under mark though it seems like a great compact scope option (assuming it tracks better than some of their other products).

    In for any first hand reviews in the coming weeks. Called them last week and they said they are already in production and shipping.
    Click to expand...

    It's done so that you don't have 10-20-30 stacked on top of eachother. All the numbers are offset and easier to read.
     
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    #46
    BangBangBlatBlat said:
    It's done so that you don't have 10-20-30 stacked on top of eachother. All the numbers are offset and easier to read.
    Click to expand...

    That’s stupid. Make it an even 10 mils like everyone else and it’s as simple as it gets to read the turret. When most other scopes work that way and it’s what people are used to it’s going to create mind fucks, just like CCW vs CW. Dialing the half mil when all other scopes don’t plus all the extra markings aren’t going to make it easier to read.

    I’m considering one but it would go on a rifle that would never need to be dialing more than one revolution. If ny application needed more than 10.5 mil then I’d never even consider this optic for this reason alone.
     
    #50
    Subwrx300 said:
    The dial in their web pic shows 10 with another .5 Mils before hitting zero. Maybe it was a marketing mixup, rendering the scope with the wrong dial markings. For under ~$2k or under mark though it seems like a great compact scope option (assuming it tracks better than some of their other products).

    In for any first hand reviews in the coming weeks. Called them last week and they said they are already in production and shipping.
    Click to expand...

    I'll reach out to Leupold and see if I can get my hands on the 3.6-18x44. I like compact scopes and the formfactor of this one is very interesting to me.

    I'll let you know when I get it.

    ILya
     
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