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So Which Is It? Amps Or Volts?
- Thread starter Maser
- Start date
This thread is why we can't have nice things.
Y'all make fun of people with degrees but can't manipulate ohms law.
V=IR
Energy is what kills you. Volts is POTENTIAL energy. Amps is Coulombs pers sec (we argue whether charge or current (charge per sec) is fundamental).
Power =VI which is energy per second.
So it's the time you are exposed to both. High enough voltage, Low current kills. High current, low voltage kills.
But really i change my mind- stupidity kills.
Heaven forbid we deal with AC
Y'all make fun of people with degrees but can't manipulate ohms law.
V=IR
Energy is what kills you. Volts is POTENTIAL energy. Amps is Coulombs pers sec (we argue whether charge or current (charge per sec) is fundamental).
Power =VI which is energy per second.
So it's the time you are exposed to both. High enough voltage, Low current kills. High current, low voltage kills.
But really i change my mind- stupidity kills.
Heaven forbid we deal with AC
All of you are wrong.
Electricity is the work of invisible demons, and your fancy laws and formulas are just an attempt to cover up this shocking truth.
Electricity is the work of invisible demons, and your fancy laws and formulas are just an attempt to cover up this shocking truth.
Ok, heres a question/scenario I have in my shop.
You are working on a 220VAC circuit. Lets say theres only 1 consumer in the circuit, and its an electric motor. The following 2 scenarios involved you getting shocked.
1st scenario: The motor isnt running, you get shocked.
2nd scenario: The motor is running, you get shocked.
Which scenario is more likely to kill you? My answer (Dont know if Im correct) is that they are both just as likely. The human body has a fixed resistance, and the voltage in the circuit is the same. The motor is consuming whatever Amps it needs to do its job, or none at all if its not running. But the human body will draw whatever Amps depending on the resistance at that moment.
You are working on a 220VAC circuit. Lets say theres only 1 consumer in the circuit, and its an electric motor. The following 2 scenarios involved you getting shocked.
1st scenario: The motor isnt running, you get shocked.
2nd scenario: The motor is running, you get shocked.
Which scenario is more likely to kill you? My answer (Dont know if Im correct) is that they are both just as likely. The human body has a fixed resistance, and the voltage in the circuit is the same. The motor is consuming whatever Amps it needs to do its job, or none at all if its not running. But the human body will draw whatever Amps depending on the resistance at that moment.
It depends on what you touch. Are you hitting the hot or the neutral(ground) bus?
Are you hitting the main hot wire coming in off the street or on the backside of a 15 amp breaker?
I think amperage is more of a pressure reading which correlates to flow. A larger resistor will reduce the flow but increase the pressure.
The first. Although either way it's bad news. Also that 220V circuit has other 'stuff' on the line like capacitors for delivery. It's like a 99 vs 98 percent difference. But your analogy is correct, there's enough power to run the motor and zap your nuts
You're gonna have a bad time
Gona give you a good zap. Done it with an air compressor running when it would not shut off. Accidentally touched the hot unplugging it, popped the breaker, arm was fuzzy for a little while, finger black.
Compared to running or not, don’t know.
I thought you were talking about working in a live box. I think I miss understood your question.
Edied 2-12- Just wanted to add. Working in a live box, Do not touch the main hot bus, that will likely kill you dead. Anything hot on the back side of a breaker will zap ya, but if depends on where on your body you touch and the amperage and type of breaker/fuse. The neutral bus can be touched as long as there is NO current running though the system as it is the neutral is the ground and the level of shock should depend on how much current is potentially flowing, so the motor running would affect its shock potential.
I was taught when working a live box never use two hand to avoid the a potential shock from running across your heart. It really depends on the path the electricity takes though your body as to what it might take to kill you.
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If you’ve worked on aircraft magneto’s you know the answer
You are describing a parallel circuit.
Let's say the motor is drawing 20 Amps. If you add your body to the circuit, the difference is less than .005 Amps. Do you think it makes a difference if the motor is running or not?
Ahhh, Gibson Les Paul, with humbuckers, and Marshall amps are a match made in Heaven!!!
Amperage kills!
I had a Blackeface Super Reverb. Sweet sound. I also found a Super Six Reverb, 80 watts with 6 blueback 10" speakers. If you maxed the reverb and cranked the volume, you'd think you were in next week.
Had a couple Marshall's but always preferred Leo Fenders work.
50k Volts @ .50 Amp. Hence, my comment.... Amps are King. Mac
ETA: I am NOT an electrician.
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50KV is right for a taser, but 0.50 would be well into "lethal every time" territory....
heres a quote from the taser people
"The electrical output of the TASER is 50,000 Volts. The voltage may seem high, but the amperage on both systems is well below safe limits. ADVANCED TASER M26 output is 3.6mA average current (0.0036 Amps) The X26 output is 2.1mA (0.0021 Amps). The output of the M26 into a human body is a fraction of the dangerous level."
You are correct. My bad. I had a half of an Amp stuck in my head. I have had training on the use of X26 Tasers. Thanks for keeping me honest. Mac
I build generators for a living....
and work very hard at not being the “fusible link” between supply and ground.
and work very hard at not being the “fusible link” between supply and ground.
Best answer^^^
It's amps that actually do the harm. But if you don't have sufficient voltage to overcome the resistance of your skin it doesn't matter if it's a billion amps... It won't flow through you.
I've had a few memorable jolts...
Grounded out the coil on an old 71 Ford pickup. Bare feet, wet grass. Knocked the fucking shit out of me... Killed the motor too. What was that... 40,000 volts? Minimal amperage thank God.
Got my thumb between 2 neutrals in a junction box up in a ceiling. 277 volt lighting circuit... I can tell you exactly how a can of paint in the mixer/shaker machine feels.
0 stars: Would not recommend either experience.
Mike
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Awfully big words for someone who doesn't understand Ohm's Law.
220 × 30 = 6600 Watts
10000 x 0.25 = 2500 Watts
Power is energy per sec
Say your hit is 0.5 seconds
13200 Joules vs 5000 Joules
Think of current as water, voltage is pressure. You can stand in a giant river and feel little pressure. Water not moving fast. Get hit with a fire hose and bye bye. But also flash floods will sweep away cars in 1-2 feet of water.
@n2ishun this whole discussion has been in metric
People say 'amps' because when was the last time you saw 1000 A? But we se 50000V all the time. You need both...
Edit: perfect analogy-- Amps is your bullet, volts is your powder. We (I anyway) bump into thing waking waaaay more than 100g daily. Now bump into it at 2500 fps
You don't ever really know how many amps you get zapped with. If the circuit is on a 20 amp breaker then the potential amperage you could get juiced by is 20 amps.
But there are a whole host of resistance variables at play that determine how much current will flow through your body...
• Body chemistry: some people just conduct better than others.
• Moisture: are you in a cool, dry area or are you drenched in sweat standing on a metal platform?
• Path of the current: Does it enter through one bare hand and go out the other? Or did your clothed hip touch something live with your shoed foot touching ground?
•System voltage: the higher the voltage the more easily your body's resistance is overcome... which will allow more current to flow in a given scenario... But on average, humans don't conduct very well which is where the burns come in... The byproduct of resistance is heat. And it typically burns you from the inside out.
Probably several more, but I'm too lazy to type them all... And you get the idea.
Mike
But there are a whole host of resistance variables at play that determine how much current will flow through your body...
• Body chemistry: some people just conduct better than others.
• Moisture: are you in a cool, dry area or are you drenched in sweat standing on a metal platform?
• Path of the current: Does it enter through one bare hand and go out the other? Or did your clothed hip touch something live with your shoed foot touching ground?
•System voltage: the higher the voltage the more easily your body's resistance is overcome... which will allow more current to flow in a given scenario... But on average, humans don't conduct very well which is where the burns come in... The byproduct of resistance is heat. And it typically burns you from the inside out.
Probably several more, but I'm too lazy to type them all... And you get the idea.
Mike
Getting back to the original question - it's a combination of voltage, current, frequency, and path through the body. Immediate death typically occurs via electrical disruption of the heart resulting in fibrillation. This can be accomplished with about 20-200 mA of current. The voltage required to do so depends upon the path and resultant resistance; could be as low as 50V, but might be well above 200V. There's not a simple answer because we're talking about a rather complex circuit and individual susceptibility.
Counterintuitively, the risk of immediate death decreases above a certain point as the heart doesn't suffer from fibrillation. People have survived some absolutely horrific electrification, but the outcome can be quite gruesome as the current path is typically through blood vessels and nerves (they're both filled with salt water). The resultant damage is not good for circulation, and tissue death is the result. Flashover burns are also likely. This often results in a combination of loss of limbs and disfigurement, so don't mess around with high voltage.
Also know that a significant number of injuries and deaths occur as the result of non-fatal electrification that result in a fall from height. In this case it's neither volts nor amps but rather kinetic energy that kills.
Counterintuitively, the risk of immediate death decreases above a certain point as the heart doesn't suffer from fibrillation. People have survived some absolutely horrific electrification, but the outcome can be quite gruesome as the current path is typically through blood vessels and nerves (they're both filled with salt water). The resultant damage is not good for circulation, and tissue death is the result. Flashover burns are also likely. This often results in a combination of loss of limbs and disfigurement, so don't mess around with high voltage.
Also know that a significant number of injuries and deaths occur as the result of non-fatal electrification that result in a fall from height. In this case it's neither volts nor amps but rather kinetic energy that kills.
As others have pointed out you can make an analogy to hydraulics.
Let's say you have a system that provides a constant pressure (voltage).
Pipe size is resistance and flow is current.
Open a valve on a 1/2 inch line and it flows a certain amount of water.
Open a valve on a 2 inch line and it flows a lot more water.
Less resistance more flow.
See Ohm's Law.
Let's say you have a system that provides a constant pressure (voltage).
Pipe size is resistance and flow is current.
Open a valve on a 1/2 inch line and it flows a certain amount of water.
Open a valve on a 2 inch line and it flows a lot more water.
Less resistance more flow.
See Ohm's Law.
Bolded part is so very very wrong.
V = I R
V = 10
Then I x R must equal 10.
Set R = to 5
I must be 2.
Lower R to 1.
I is now 10.
Math.
is.
Hard.
Watts is power. Power = V x I. But I = V/R (ohms law!) so Power is V^2/R or P*R = V^2. Fix the Voltage. If R goes down then P Goes up. Set V^2 = 64
If R =8 , then P must be 8.
If R = 4 then P must be 16.
Math.
IS.
HARD!
V = IR.
R = Retard who doesn't understand electricity and grabs a live wire.
V = Potential Driving the current.
I = Current thru said retard
Now sit down before you hurt yourself.
Stop with the wanna be math, it's obviously not your strong suit.
If you have a static 120v AC and have a 20 ohm load on the line, amperage will be less than if you have a 40 ohm load on the line.
What part of this do YOU not understand ?
None of it, right ?
Watts has nothing to do with power.
Watts is consumption.
Voltage and amperage are power.....multiply them and what happens ?
WATTS.....gasp!
No, dammit, just... stop. That's exactly wrong. Like, totally opposite of what happens. If you don't want to do the trivially simple math, then set up an experiment and make a measurement. Just make sure to size the resistors properly, although that's beyond your ability so I might as well be teaching this to a retarded puppy.
What. The. Fuck.
You actually got this one right, and I have no idea how other than random Brownian motion of neurons in your head colliding.
Oh, the irony, it burns.
Are you for real ?
Are you trying to measure amperage AFTER whatever device is on the line ?
That doesn't work.
Do you understand the word LOAD ?
Have you ever seen a DVOM (and do you need that explained, slowly) ?
Screw your simple minded wanna-be math.
Go find a wall socket, if you have one that isn't burned up.
Go find a volt meter.
Go test YOURSELF.
I have thousands of resistors of just about every type conceivable.
PM me an addy and I will send (no charge) a wide selection to you.
money-mouth-location
Higher load = higher amperage PER-E-FUCKING-ID
I don't care if you're in Zimbabwe or Mars, it's the same everywhere.
I can only assume at this point that you're trolling and having a good laugh. Or are you really that dumb?
Thank you for the perfect example of stomping your feet, degrees know nothing, "I know everything despite all evidence to the contrary" example I was speaking about.
If only someone had done this and filmed it. O wait:
So which magic resistors you got? PM sent (MIL or MOA)
Did you just admit that you don't know how to perform a simple measurement of current in a basic electric circuit? Pretty sure that's exactly what happened. What a joke
You are not seeing what I typed.Did you just admit that you don't know how to perform a simple measurement of current in a basic electric circuit? Pretty sure that's exactly what happened. What a joke
Read it again.
Not over time, line position.
Did YOU do it ?
Nope.
Test failed.
I can find a bible verse that covers it...probably....the bible is pretty ambiguous after all.
Doesn't mean a thing.
Neither does a spewtube video that I won't watch.
I can also post a spewtube video of any topic showing any angle.
Doesn't mean shit, it'a as factual as main stream media.
Then film yourself doing it. Show us the result. Teach us of master why Maxwell, Ohm, Einstein (you do know the special relativity was based on the accuracy of measured modern electric moving charges right?), and the Modern US Electric Grid are wrong and you are right. Show us why every lab experiment, textbook, modern science is incorrect and you sir, are the single one in possession of this truth.
If Vb is 10V and X is 4 ohms, how many Amps are flowing through the circuit?
If Vb is still 10V and X is changed to 8 ohms, how many Amps are flowing through the circuit?
