So you think you can shoot?

[Nathan11B]

Finally got out to shoot this challenge with two different types of ammo. Wolf Match Extra and Eley Match just to compare how well they both shot. I'm going to say this now, I probably could use some work shooting from bipods and rear bag as my form is not perfect. Due to the wind it's hard to tell what exactly was me versus the wind. I do apologize as I did not have way to measure the distance from poa to poi. Both targets were shot within 45minutes when I started shooting, so I kind of rushed through this.
Temp: 59* F
Humidity: 34%
Winds: wsw-south 5 mph
Rifle: 77/22 LR BSA 4-14x44

Wolf Match Extra

Eley Match

 

[justin amateur]

Me and my Harris S-BR 6-9 have an understanding.
At the range sending round after round it's allowed to humiliate me.
Picking off a squirrel or rabbit for dinner, I'm allowed 2 or 3 accurate shots.
After that the spring loaded contraption starts to giggle at me.
Can't shoot off a vibrating rest. Don't see how anyone can.

 

[JG26_Irish]

50yd Dot Shoot with tgt rifle 540XR

I went to the range this weekend and spent some time shooting both Remington 540XR's. The first one with peeps was shot at four NRA A-23 black bulls with 5 shots on each at 50yds. Score was 198 14x using Center-X ammo.

Then I set up to shoot the 50yd Dot Shoot with the scoped rifle. Average for all 30 rds was 0.173", which is a little better than the hunting rifle.

Rifle: Rem Mod 540XR all stock factory bbl, trigger adjusted
Optic: Sightron BR II 36x
Ammo: Lapua Center-X
Conditions: Fired from Bench off of 2-piece sandbag rest (F class style)
Weather: Sunny 81 deg F, wind light 3-5mph, switching from 9 to 12 to 2 and back. Not a factor for most of the shots.

Average for Tgt = 0.173"

I followed this tgt with a 2nd using Wolf Match Tgt. Average for the 2nd Tgt = 0.181"

This rifle seems to shoot the Wolf and Lapua CX ammo the best most of the time. I have two good lots of Eley Black which is more consistent than those but still disperses the shots more than either. What I mean by that is that all the shots are nicely grouped around the POA and it rarely has a flyer but the size of the best and average groups are always slightly larger than those with the Lapua. The Lapua does seem to have one or two really bad flyers per box which spoil the groups at times. For example in the 3rd row of the dot shoot, I had two shots that went low right for no good reason while the two before and the two after were all near center of dot. The point of aim was the same for all six. The Lapua just seems to throw a curve ball from time to time, lol.

I use the Eley mostly for matches since it is consistent and cuts nice clean holes in the paper, but since I have found this nice lot of Lapua, have been happy with it also.

Irish

 

[jbell]

I was finally able to get back to the range today and gave this target another go. Its a little better this time but I think I am still holding the rifle back, I shanked a few shots. I was also going to give this a go at 100 yds but the wind was too strong by the time I moved my target out there.

 

[justin amateur]

Can't argue with those results.
That Sauer is just phenomenal.
And off a bipod, that's skill.
Very nice jb, that's what a 10x should look like

 

[jbell]

Thanks Justin, the Sauer is a great shooing rifle. I keep saying that I need to work on finding some "better" ammo it really likes, but I have a hard time keeping up with the Center X. So for now I will just keep working on my shooing.

 

[JG26_Irish]

Very nice tgt JB. Good luck finding ammo much better than CX. Even with the occasional flyers, it is good stuff.

Irish

 

[Kid_Lefty]

I want to bump this to the top since it's been a while and see if there's some more shooters out there!

 

[jbell]

I want to bump this to the top since it's been a while and see if there's some more shooters out there!

+1 its good fun especially in the wind...

 

[justin amateur]

I think they've been scared off jb.
Seeing what the Sauer did off a bipod,
has left 'em with a bad case of Sauer envy.

I'd post another target, but the fuglie no longer meets spec.

it's become a rimfire artillery piece.

 

[jbell]

I thought the fuglie shot well. Is something wrong with it? By the way thanks on the compliments of the Sauer, I was a good day when I got that rifle!! I need to get back out and shoot some too, kids softball is now winding down and I may have time soon.

 

[justin amateur]

Is something wrong with it?

Yeah, it no longer would be a fair comparison. I've installed a rear elevator screw,
added a fixed crossbrace with leveling screws, so it now is a gun carriage, not a rifle on a bipod.
Put the crosshairs on a bullseye and they stay put whether you hold the rifle or not.
That doesn't fit the intent of showing shooter skill off bipod and bag in any way, shape or form.
Makes for a nice test platform though. No skill needed, just aim and squeeze.

 

[JG26_Irish]

So you think you can shoot?

I like this tgt. It is great for practice and does not use much ink or paper. We have been toying with using it as a stage in a precision rimfire match. Either that or glue M&M's onto it and tell the shooters to only shoot the brown M&M's leaving the other colors as No-Shoots. Will have to experiment and try that first as they may be too close together for such a drill. Thought we might include a cold bore shot of shooting an egg off of a golf tee at 75-100yds as well. Normally that shot might be too easy but from a cold bore it is likely pretty tough.

Irish

 

[KevinU]

Challenging target for sure.

Shot this today with my 40X/Rock Creek barrel, SKS Plus. Easy wind.



Crappy picture of my rifle.

 

[yoteman]

OK I will say it. Kevin that's BS



BS as in that is cool as hell rifle, damm I like it
nice shooting by the way,
if we all could take out the human aspect, as Justin has with the fuglie, not that fuglie ant uuugley cool, (no dis Justin) don't think it would be much fun.
after jbell sells me that sauer, LOL (don't think his girls will let him). sorry Jason just want stop trying.
still looking for 40x remmie

 

[ivanthesane]

OK, I see a few of you are measuring center of bull to center of hit and tracking that for your averages. What would be interesting would be seeing a standard deviation, esp across multiple targets and time. Even better would be if there was a numeric indication of which direction the hole is from the POA (ie, the clock positions, going by minutes instead of hours - ie, shot a 10 would actually be towards 2 oclock). Low SD on both distance from POA vs. POI and direction from POA would indicate small groups but off POA - fixable by adjusting sights. High SD direction from POA would indicate that your hits are scattered in all directions from POA (esp. when you have a high SD on distance of POI from POA or a high average distance), whereas a low SD on direction from POA would indicate either sight misalignment or having a steady wind and ignoring it (ie, constant 5mph from exactly 3 oclock and shooting as if there was 0 wind)

 

[justin amateur]

I like the look of row 4, shot 3...dead on center, left a full ring.
That's dam hard to do. Especially off bipod and bag. Very nice target results.

No worries yote, the fuglie was a proof of concept project.
The concept being that free floated doesn't always produce the best accuracy.
I'm waiting on some parts for a not-so-fuglie build.
Already have the poplar planks and a design, just need the new lock plates.
The fuglie has become an ammo test platform that's easier to transport than a 40 lb steel vise.
Next barrel block rifle will be intended for bipod use.

I do the 6x5 dot shoot every trip to the range.
It's become the best method for me to work on my bipod skills.
I'm showing improvement off the Harris with my 455 American Lilja,
but nowhere near the consistent accuracy I can get with the fuglie.
Which proves it's either me or the Harris. I'm gonna blame the Harris.

Ivan, you've gone way beyond my skill set.

 

[yoteman]

OK, I see a few of you are measuring center of bull to center of hit and tracking that for your averages. What would be interesting would be seeing a standard deviation, esp across multiple targets and time. Even better would be if there was a numeric indication of which direction the hole is from the POA (ie, the clock positions, going by minutes instead of hours - ie, shot a 10 would actually be towards 2 oclock). Low SD on both distance from POA vs. POI and direction from POA would indicate small groups but off POA - fixable by adjusting sights. High SD direction from POA would indicate that your hits are scattered in all directions from POA (esp. when you have a high SD on distance of POI from POA or a high average distance), whereas a low SD on direction from POA would indicate either sight misalignment or having a steady wind and ignoring it (ie, constant 5mph from exactly 3 oclock and shooting as if there was 0 wind)

uh what!!
by keeping it simple, more will try, it is really just a game of shooter/rifle, and a test of human error
but if you feel all that info, is needed set up a format, an we will see where it goes.
YO

 

[yoteman]

No worries yote, the fuglie was a proof of concept project.
The concept being that free floated doesn't always produce the best accuracy.

an a damm good concept, it has been, ( I enjoy reading about your test with it) loi of good info

yea I have been putting my blame on any thing but the driver, LOL. but at last I sure it is my old eyes, letting me down

 

[Kid_Lefty]

Tried this last night with my 10/22... embarrassing! my 6x5 Average off-center 0.542". You guys make this look WAY too easy... six months ago(before I knew any different), I would've have been thrilled to shoot the way I did last night. Now, I'm disappointed, LOL. But, now I'm motivated! After messing with this 10/22 a little bit, I think I want to build a rifle. I want to build a bolt gun and I'm not too hung up on cost... I'll just have to save my money longer. I've been able to find variants of Anschutz, CZ, Kimber, Remington, and Sauer rifles that I like, appearance-wise so I'll keep researching and comparing models until I find a solid starting platform. I still have a ton to learn and I plan on wearing this 10/22 out while improving my technique but I want to start planning my next one. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences!

-Kid

 

[JG26_Irish]

Tried this last night with my 10/22... embarrassing! my 6x5 Average off-center 0.542". You guys make this look WAY too easy... six months ago(before I knew any different), I would've have been thrilled to shoot the way I did last night. Now, I'm disappointed, LOL. But, now I'm motivated! After messing with this 10/22 a little bit, I think I want to build a rifle. I want to build a bolt gun and I'm not too hung up on cost... I'll just have to save my money longer. I've been able to find variants of Anschutz, CZ, Kimber, Remington, and Sauer rifles that I like, appearance-wise so I'll keep researching and comparing models until I find a solid starting platform. I still have a ton to learn and I plan on wearing this 10/22 out while improving my technique but I want to start planning my next one. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences!

-Kid

Building a killer bolt action rimfire with a generous budget is not that difficult. The Remington 40x is one of the better factory actions but, get this: Nearly all of the current popular benchrest rimfire actions such as the Turbo or the Hall are copies of the Remington 40x action with improvements such as 6 o'clock ignition, more precision tolerances, better triggers, left side loading, etc. A good hand lapped BR match grade bbl is the next big part needed. Shilein, Rock-Creek, Lilja, etc are good. Most are backordered these days so order early and be patient. The bad news is that just getting the match grade rifle is no guarantee of success. I shot a match with a fellow last weekend who had a lovely Hall rifle with a heavy stainless bull bbl in a synthetic BR stock and wearing a nice 36x scope. It had a 1.5oz Jewell trigger. The machining work on this rifle was a work of art. As smooth as any H&K or Feinwerkbau, I have ever seen. The Hohen muzzle tuner was another enhancement. Alas, His shooting was not up to the potential of his rifle. Not sure why. I beat him once at 50yds with my bone stock factory Remington 540XR and once at 100yds with my old worn out Win Mod 52. Maybe I got lucky...

Irish

 

[RicosRevenge]

Irish... it will always come down to the archer - not the arrow. Great equipment can cover up a lot of woes but if the user isn't up to par then the results will be the same. Your comment about "his shooting not being up to the potential of his rifle" is a fantastic quote.

This is why when newer guys get on here they sometimes get berated to "just go shoot" when their first post is "what's the best rifle I can get?" Throwing money at something only goes so far... this is most often demonstrated on the golf course where "those guys" always have the latest Taylor Made clubs - they went through the R5, 6, 7, etc... and when the R42 comes out they will still be shooting 100+

 

[Kid_Lefty]

Irish... it will always come down to the archer - not the arrow. Great equipment can cover up a lot of woes but if the user isn't up to par then the results will be the same. Your comment about "his shooting not being up to the potential of his rifle" is a fantastic quote.

This is why when newer guys get on here they sometimes get berated to "just go shoot" when their first post is "what's the best rifle I can get?" Throwing money at something only goes so far... this is most often demonstrated on the golf course where "those guys" always have the latest Taylor Made clubs - they went through the R5, 6, 7, etc... and when the R42 comes out they will still be shooting 100+

-Rico, your advice has not fallen on deaf ears! I've made myself quicklinks back to the posts made by you, yoteman, jbell, irish, justin, and others...

BUT, the bottom line is that no matter how much your rifle is capable of - it doesn't make a whole lot of difference if the driver can't perform. The only way to fix that is trigger-time, observation and criticism. Shoot the snot out of it! We'll be here once you get your home paid off (congrats BTW... lucky bastard... ;-P) and can help you spend as much cash as you want!

I'm asking questions, taking notes, and trying to soak it all in... thanks for it all!!!!

 

[Frank Green]

Irish... it will always come down to the archer - not the arrow. Great equipment can cover up a lot of woes but if the user isn't up to par then the results will be the same. Your comment about "his shooting not being up to the potential of his rifle" is a fantastic quote.

This is why when newer guys get on here they sometimes get berated to "just go shoot" when their first post is "what's the best rifle I can get?" Throwing money at something only goes so far... this is most often demonstrated on the golf course where "those guys" always have the latest Taylor Made clubs - they went through the R5, 6, 7, etc... and when the R42 comes out they will still be shooting 100+

Hey Rico!

I will add to what Rico said and I agree with it but I will add this.....

I tell guys your only as good as your equipment.....once you start exceeding your equipments capabilities you stop learning. So when you do buy a scope, ammo (or reload), or build a rifle etc....don't cut corners. Cutting corners will come back to haunt you.

The last thing you want to do is blow a 8 on the target at 3 o'clock and have to say to yourself. Was it me? Was it the ammo? Was it the gun? Or did the wind conditions burn me and I didn't catch it etc...

When you have confidence in your equipment and you see the conditions changing and you put the change/dope on your rifle and when you pull the trigger and the target shows exactly where the bullet was suppose to go it is a huge confidence builder and you learn from it as well.

You start second guessing your equipment it makes for a miserable day at the range/match!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[jbell]

Well I didn't have your target- but here are 5 round groups 25-50&100y with my Pellet rifle off a bipod. (sorry I don't have a scoped rimfire any longer)

Wind was light from 270 -- the super low BC really suffers by 100y -- btw I give the credit to the Air-rifle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SHIT!! that is an air rifle, damn accurate SOB! What is the details on the rifle and pellets? How fast?

 

[jbell]

You start second guessing your equipment it makes for a miserable day at the range/match!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

I agree 110%. I always want to be limiting factor (which is not hard for me...)

 

[steveptr]

I agree 110%. I always want to be limiting factor (which is not hard for me...)

I'll raise that to 200%

 

[JG26_Irish]

Irish... it will always come down to the archer - not the arrow. Great equipment can cover up a lot of woes but if the user isn't up to par then the results will be the same. Your comment about "his shooting not being up to the potential of his rifle" is a fantastic quote.

This is why when newer guys get on here they sometimes get berated to "just go shoot" when their first post is "what's the best rifle I can get?" Throwing money at something only goes so far... this is most often demonstrated on the golf course where "those guys" always have the latest Taylor Made clubs - they went through the R5, 6, 7, etc... and when the R42 comes out they will still be shooting 100+

Good comment. It took me a lot of years of shooting mediocre rifles and cheap ammo to learn that I might be a better marksman if I were not being limited by the equipment that I was using. My first hint was when I got a nice shooting HB 223 rifle and was stunned with its accuracy potential. I never owned a nice 22 until last November. It made a big difference. I guess the best way to put it is, "Bad equipment can make a good shooter bad but good equipment will not make a bad shooter good". But, what it will do is take away all the excuses, lol. I have the hots for a rifle that will shoot in the 1's consistently. This may end up denting my piggy bank before long. A few of my local gunsmiths are making some amazing 22lr BR sporter class rifles. I agree with Frank that you do not want to be asking yourself why the stray shot occurred and wondering if it was the rifle or the ammo or...

Irish

 

[JG26_Irish]

Diver, very nice rig. Is that an Atlas bipod on the FX?

It makes me laugh that ATF requires all the BS paperwork and bureaucratic hoopla for us to put a suppressor can on a 22lr that shoots a subsonic 40g pellet at 1080 fps but a silenced 25cal pellet rifle of this quality and precision is sold as if it were a toy. No paperwork no nothing. I guess I should be grateful for such omissions. It just gripes me that government finds it necessary to even be involved in such matters at all.

Irish

 

[yoteman]

kid lot of gent's, here will shoot straight with you,
you have name but a few,(dont throw me in there iam so full of BS i stink)
you sound like a guy that take info well, then use it.
ok i will not bs you here, just want do you wish to do with it,
hunt
target match
tactical match
there are many ways to go here, A good BR match rifle, make a shitty tactical rig
a good tactical rifle make a poor BR rig,

now becarful what you say about money,
alot of damm great rifle's out there for $2000.00 are less.
copper,annie,win52,37,sauer(hard to find by the way)40x rem, that is just a few.

now hang on for this ride.
my son wanted a CZ455, to shoot ,
so to make a long storey short, after all mods, scope(which i had) we have a $1500.00 rifle
now to make a point becareful because his money pit still will not outshoot my $700.00 used MPR 64
it was fun as hell building it, with my son.
yes if you go down that road dont cut corner,
but still do this, spend more time behind the trigger now, so when your dream rifle is done.
you will find out if all that money was well spent
think about it !!!!!
we will still be here if you need us (them)
YO

 

[yoteman]

SHIT!! that is an air rifle, damn accurate SOB! What is the details on the rifle and pellets? How fast?

yes holly crap!!!!
i flip by, just looking at target an said to my self, good shooting
then i read jbell reply
DAMM A+AIR RIFLE WELL not good by GREAT SHOOTING,
i sir give my highest HATS OFF well done

 

[yoteman]

kid lot of gent's, here will shoot straight with you,
you have name but a few,(dont throw me in there iam so full of BS i stink)
you sound like a guy that take info well, then use it.
ok i will not bs you here, just want do you wish to do with it,
hunt
target match
tactical match
there are many ways to go here, A good BR match rifle, make a shitty tactical rig
a good tactical rifle make a poor BR rig,

now becarful what you say about money,
alot of damm great rifle's out there for $2000.00 are less.
copper,annie,win52,37,sauer(hard to find by the way)40x rem, that is just a few.

now hang on for this ride.
my son wanted a CZ455, to shoot ,
so to make a long storey short, after all mods, scope(which i had) we have a $1500.00 rifle
now to make a point becareful because his money pit still will not outshoot my $700.00 used MPR 64
it was fun as hell building it, with my son.
yes if you go down that road dont cut corner,
but still do this, spend more time behind the trigger now, so when your dream rifle is done.
you will find out if all that money was well spent
think about it !!!!!
we will still be here if you need us (them)
YO

let me say this
Blitz, jaybrid,dylin, all shoot a 1809Sr an 1809Jr at that TSC match
an well, they kick my ass alot
see i told you i was full of shit.
but to be honest, WELL THERE LAST NAME IS ROE; NUFF SAID.
YO

 

[steve123]

Here is my FX-

Btw the scope rings are tall to accommodate the rotary magazines.

It is dead quite --- too

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wish my 22 cal FX Royale shot that good!

Here's a cherry group from 50Y but the next few groups weren't as nice.

 

[ivanthesane]

uh what!!
by keeping it simple, more will try, it is really just a game of shooter/rifle, and a test of human error
but if you feel all that info, is needed set up a format, an we will see where it goes.
YO

I agree - the shooting is simple. But being a computer geek and having really enjoyed my stats class and seeing how at least one shooter is measuring how far POI is from POA tends to bring out my analytical side

I'll admit up front that I
1) Can't shoot that good
2) Don't own a rifle or scope that can shoot that good (Go Savage & Simmons! But, there are limits)
3) Wouldn't get into measuring like you guys do
4) Won't pay the $ for the higher grade ammo to do this

But, if someone else is generating data, I tend to think of ways that it can be turned into information

 

[yoteman]

I agree - the shooting is simple. But being a computer geek and having really enjoyed my stats class and seeing how at least one shooter is measuring how far POI is from POA tends to bring out my analytical side

I'll admit up front that I
1) Can't shoot that good
2) Don't own a rifle or scope that can shoot that good (Go Savage & Simmons! But, there are limits)
3) Wouldn't get into measuring like you guys do
4) Won't pay the $ for the higher grade ammo to do this

But, if someone else is generating data, I tend to think of ways that it can be turned into information

Ivan I get it, I really do
I have 2 fine young men as son`s one just became a grad, on his way to becoming a CPA
the young one will be done in December of this year as a computer programmer.
an they are all ways telling me to stay up with the times. (yea right)
they both love, stats, data,info. and they lose me fast, when it comes to such.
hell I am old school. I wear my face book every day, I some times shave it. my palm pilot, is a pen an my palm LOL
I wish I was more up to date, but hard to teach this ol dog new tricks.

 

[JG26_Irish]

just what do you wish to do with it?,
hunt
target match
tactical match
there are many ways to go here, A good BR match rifle, make a shitty tactical rig
a good tactical rifle make a poor BR rig,

now becarful what you say about money,
alot of damm great rifle's out there for $2000.00 are less.
cooper,annie,win52,37,sauer(hard to find by the way)40x rem, that is just a few.

we have a $1500.00 rifle
now to make a point becareful because his money pit still will not outshoot my $700.00 used MPR 64

if you go down that road dont cut corner,
but still do this, spend more time behind the trigger now, so when your dream rifle is done.
you will find out if all that money was well spent
YO

Good advice. I have a nice $400 used match tgt rifle that shoots well from a bench but would be a terrible tactical rifle simply because the fixed power tgt dot scope is NOT good for variable distances and doing hold-over style shooting, etc. I could change scopes and turn it into a tactical rifle but then its BR capability might be hurt (depends how much I spend on the scope). It is way too heavy to hunt with at 10+ lbs. I shoot it in unlimited BR matches sometimes and get my butt kicked. I shoot it in vintage or factory rifle BR matches and it is capable of winning on a good day. It cannot compete with a good custom BR rig. I have a 2nd rifle that is OK at tactical, but is not as accurate as the other. I hunt with it even though it is a little heavy (9lbs). It is a repeater which enhances its utility in hunting and some forms of tgt shooting. I could install a 36x fixed power scope and likely improve its accuracy from the bench but it would make it a poor hunting gun and would harm its tactical capabilities. I could also install a high dollar variable scope with the right recticle (6-24 or 8-32, etc.) and likely improve BOTH its Bench rest accuracy and its tactical capability without unduly harming the hunting value. But, is it really worth it to install a $1000 scope onto a $550 rifle? Hard to say. I would love to have one rifle that did all this stuff well but so far, I have found that I can optimize a rifle for one discipline or I can compromise on the rifle and be OK at two or three disciplines. I see this as a great excuse to own several rifles! To each his own.

BTW: I used to roadrace motorcycles. First on a 650cc light twins bike and later on a 1000cc superbike. I found it was more fun to race well on the old, outdated 650 that was not supposed to win than it was to win on the state of the art superbike that was expected to win. Don't ask me why. I loved going out in free practice and smoking guys on "Faster" bikes with the little twin.

I much prefer to optimize a $500 rifle and win with a gun that should not win, than to win with a $2000 rifle that was supposed to win. I out shot a great shooter the other day who had a very nice HB Cooper model 57M TRP3 with a high dollar 36x scope on it. I do not know what he paid for it but if I were to buy a new one at retail with the scope he had, I would be spending about $3000 for the whole rig. He was using Eley Black ammo and did shoot very very well. I only beat him by three points but it was very satisfying to beat his $3k rig with my $700 rig ($400 rifle with $300 scope). Had I done the same using a $5000 custom BR rig topped with a March scope I think the consensus would have been, I should have won on the merits of the equipment alone and if I failed it was truly my fault not that of the equipment. I like to win when I am not supposed to and surprise em. I do not mind losing to better shooters or better equipment. But that is just me. Sorta like the skeet shooter that insists on using a 410 instead of a 12ga. Sometimes a handicap adds to the enjoyment. Consider that before you spend $3000 on a rifle.

Irish

 

[Kid_Lefty]

kid lot of gent's, here will shoot straight with you,
you have name but a few,(dont throw me in there iam so full of BS i stink)
you sound like a guy that take info well, then use it.
ok i will not bs you here, just want do you wish to do with it,
hunt
target match
tactical match
there are many ways to go here, A good BR match rifle, make a shitty tactical rig
a good tactical rifle make a poor BR rig,

now becarful what you say about money,
alot of damm great rifle's out there for $2000.00 are less.
copper,annie,win52,37,sauer(hard to find by the way)40x rem, that is just a few.

now hang on for this ride.
my son wanted a CZ455, to shoot ,
so to make a long storey short, after all mods, scope(which i had) we have a $1500.00 rifle
now to make a point becareful because his money pit still will not outshoot my $700.00 used MPR 64
it was fun as hell building it, with my son.
yes if you go down that road dont cut corner,
but still do this, spend more time behind the trigger now, so when your dream rifle is done.
you will find out if all that money was well spent
think about it !!!!!
we will still be here if you need us (them)
YO

Ok Mr. Yote... Again, thanks for weighing in. I truly appreciate it. Here's my current thoughts:

I am not quite ready to start entering any type of matches. That would be a waste of everybody else's time. I love that feeling of pulling the trigger, you know that anticipation and excitement! I also want to be able to pick up a rifle and know what it's going to do on the first shot, second shot, etc. My wife says I have a bad habit of not being able to leave stuff alone. Whether it's cars, work, or now guns, I have a compulsion to try to make it perform "better". I get bored with things that just "exist". So, right now I want to research different manufacturers and aftermarket vendors and gain better understanding of what works for most. I want to spend quality money on a good, solid rifle starting point then take it apart, bug you guys to find out what makes it better, actually make it better, and continuously evolve/grow my skill set. Hopefully, I can take what I learn from each firearm I own and apply it to the next one.

The main goal is to have fun but the second goal is to not "waste" money. I have no problems spending money on quality equipment but I want to learn something along with it.

There's a group of law enforcement officials that teach different firearm classes in my area. I hope to take the "advanced handgun" and "precision rifle" courses next year in order to improve on my technique. I'm also going to try to attend a Project Appleseed weekend here in my area this year. Maybe in a couple years I can grow a set of cajones large enough to start attending some BR matches and maybe travel a little bit to meet some new faces and learn even more. LOL

So, as long as you guys keep posting your experiences and using words/phrases that I don't understand, I'll keep learning. Maybe someday I'll settle on a specific area of focus but right now, it's all new and I love it all!

-Kid

 

[Kid_Lefty]

Good advice. I have a nice $400 used match tgt rifle that shoots well from a bench but would be a terrible tactical rifle simply because the fixed power tgt dot scope is NOT good for variable distances and doing hold-over style shooting, etc. I could change scopes and turn it into a tactical rifle but then its BR capability might be hurt (depends how much I spend on the scope). It is way too heavy to hunt with at 10+ lbs. I shoot it in unlimited BR matches sometimes and get my butt kicked. I shoot it in vintage or factory rifle BR matches and it is capable of winning on a good day. It cannot compete with a good custom BR rig. I have a 2nd rifle that is OK at tactical, but is not as accurate as the other. I hunt with it even though it is a little heavy (9lbs). It is a repeater which enhances its utility in hunting and some forms of tgt shooting. I could install a 36x fixed power scope and likely improve its accuracy from the bench but it would make it a poor hunting gun and would harm its tactical capabilities. I could also install a high dollar variable scope with the right recticle (6-24 or 8-32, etc.) and likely improve BOTH its Bench rest accuracy and its tactical capability without unduly harming the hunting value. But, is it really worth it to install a $1000 scope onto a $550 rifle? Hard to say. I would love to have one rifle that did all this stuff well but so far, I have found that I can optimize a rifle for one discipline or I can compromise on the rifle and be OK at two or three disciplines. I see this as a great excuse to own several rifles! To each his own.

BTW: I used to roadrace motorcycles. First on a 650cc light twins bike and later on a 1000cc superbike. I found it was more fun to race well on the old, outdated 650 that was not supposed to win than it was to win on the state of the art superbike that was expected to win. Don't ask me why. I loved going out in free practice and smoking guys on "Faster" bikes with the little twin.

I much prefer to optimize a $500 rifle and win with a gun that should not win, than to win with a $2000 rifle that was supposed to win. I out shot a great shooter the other day who had a very nice HB Cooper model 57M TRP3 with a high dollar 36x scope on it. I do not know what he paid for it but if I were to buy a new one at retail with the scope he had, I would be spending about $3000 for the whole rig. He was using Eley Black ammo and did shoot very very well. I only beat him by three points but it was very satisfying to beat his $3k rig with my $700 rig ($400 rifle with $300 scope). Had I done the same using a $5000 custom BR rig topped with a March scope I think the consensus would have been, I should have won on the merits of the equipment alone and if I failed it was truly my fault not that of the equipment. I like to win when I am not supposed to and surprise em. I do not mind losing to better shooters or better equipment. But that is just me. Sorta like the skeet shooter that insists on using a 410 instead of a 12ga. Sometimes a handicap adds to the enjoyment. Consider that before you spend $3000 on a rifle.

Irish

This makes total sense to me. I was writing my reply to Yote when you posted this... For ME ( let me stress that part... For ME only) the research, preparation, building, testing, tuning, etc. is just as fun and sometimes more fun than the goal itself. I want to go through the process and learn a few things the hard way. That's how I learn and I enjoy the entire process.

-Kid

 

[yoteman]

This makes total sense to me. I was writing my reply to Yote when you posted this... For ME ( let me stress that part... For ME only) the research, preparation, building, testing, tuning, etc. is just as fun and sometimes more fun than the goal itself. I want to go through the process and learn a few things the hard way. That's how I learn and I enjoy the entire process.

-Kid

kid, nothing wrong with that, it is fun starting an ending a build
but your key point, waste of money, that is why i asked, what you were intending to do with it
as far as wasting any body's time in a match, not ture we enjoy new shooter's, at the TSC match.
an go as far as letting new people shoot our rigs.
an i am sure it would be the same any match you go to.
good luck, on your quest, just watch out for the pit falls, along the way
one thing i stress find a good gunsmith, that will help you along your way
YO

hope to get out an try this again
just changed scope on Gretel
an updated son's cz.
so now i have 2 reason's to shoot this one more time HA
still have not found a lot of ammo the cz likes well.
but that damm air rifle of DIVER'S, has kicked my butt. still cant get over that target
(well done diver)

 

[yoteman]

Irish, knee scrapper hmmmm.
i went the other way in my younger years, i played in the drit.
yep feels good to kick ass on a 125, when others are on a 250,
but that was only in practice, for me,
later made the move to 250 class(well had to, my butt got bigger). still i did better on the 125

any good rifle will shoot will with a good shooter
but the best rifle still shoots poor with a poor shooter.

like we offten say the racecar is set up just right, but the damm driver(me) cant drive it,get it HE HE HA HA!!!!!

 

[JG26_Irish]

Irish, knee scrapper hmmmm.
i went the other way in my younger years, i played in the drit.
yep feels good to kick ass on a 125, when others are on a 250,
but that was only in practice, for me,
later made the move to 250 class(well had to, my butt got bigger). still i did better on the 125

any good rifle will shoot will with a good shooter
but the best rifle still shoots poor with a poor shooter.

like we offten say the racecar is set up just right, but the damm driver(me) cant drive it,get it HE HE HA HA!!!!!

Yote: HaHa, Yeh, I scrapped knees, and sometimes other body parts, lol. Way better than drugs though. There is something liberating about being able to apply open aggression without the limits of speed laws or rules of the road, etc. Still common courtesy did appy (except in the 600ss class).

Not to hijack the thread but I also raced MX and Enduro in the dirt before my roadracing career. The best roadracers also learned how to go sideways in the dirt. In fact I am older than dirt. For example, I was racing MX back when it was common to see things like Maico, Bultaco, Husqvarna and CZ (yes, they used to make bikes too, lol) running against the upstart Japanese bikes. I had one of the 1st YZ 250 Yammys (before they were yellow) and it was amazing. I used to beat 400cc open class bikes on that beast. I ran open class Huskys back when Dick Burleson was still in his prime and the Penton boys were riding bikes with their name on them. I could run his pace for about 10 minutes but never had the endurance to do it for 125miles like he did. The guy was a machine.

The CZ bike was a lot like the CZ rifles. A good machine for the price but could be better with some mods, lol. My rifle team coach in college raced a red frame CZ. It was the hot rod special model for those who wanted the best. Sort of a factory custom. More power and lighter weight.

Irish

 

[Tempest 455]

Going to try this sometime this weekend.

 

[justin amateur]

So you don't have to hunt for it,
here's the 8.5x11 pdf file of the target.

I tried again this weekend, no improvement.
Pretty sure I've reached my maximum level of incompetence.

 

[Sledge1]

Thanks Justin. This is going to be a ritual of mine. Picking up my new Anny tonight and gonna try to wear it out on this target.]

 

[Sledge1]

So I got to shoot this thing today after being up for the last 36 hrs. I got off work and knew I wouldn't sleep until I shot this rifle. I shot 2 different brands of ammo, SK + and RWS SSHP. I can assure you all that I am the weak link in this chain, even with this ammo.
The RWS actually averaged better at .189" vs. .196" for the SK.
This was the first time shooting this rifle and scope so I'm pretty stoked. I've got a little more fine tuning to do on the setup and would love at least 20x on the scope ( not to mention some sleep). This target is a riot though, thanks again for starting it.
Here's the rifle.


Here are the targets.

 

[justin amateur]

Not bad sledge. Get some sleep and try it again.
No way could I do that well after 36 hours without sleep.

 

[jbell]

Sledge1, very nice rifle and good shooting as well! I cant wait to see more pics of it. Give the 6X5 challenge a try when you have time, it also is a lot of fun.

 

[justin amateur]

I'm throwing in the towel, literally.
I've been fighting with a Harris S-BR 6-9 bipod for a while now.
I know the rifle is accurate and I know the ammo is accurate,
but results off the Harris were never consistent, until this morning.

This is how I normally use the bipod...

Results on target at 50 yds ran from 0.25 groups to 0.75 groups (5 shot) very inconsistent.
I figured it was me having no skill whatsoever unless the rifle was in a one piece rest.

Then this morning I made a small change, Can you see it?

The results on target, once I figured out the slightly modified grip needed, surprised me!

All I had to do was get those stupid rubber feet off the deck, and the recoil bounce went away.
The towel, folded to put 4 layers between the feet and the bench, allows recoil slide instead of bounce.
What a difference. Worked on all 4 flavors of 17 hmr, the 17 gr ballistic tips, 17 gr hp, 20 gr hp and 20 gr fmj.
Wish I'd thrown in the towel a couple years ago. Could have saved some frustration, eh?

 

[jbell]

Justin, nice job! I have been using this trick for years when shooting on the ground off ice. During the winter we will get heavy ice build up on the ground at my range and the bipod would slip all over the place. A towel works like felt soles when on slimy rocks trying to fly fish and not end up swimming.

 

[Sledge1]

Good shooting, impressive target.
Just out of curiosity, has everyone figured out a preference for what order they like to shoot this target? I've tried down to up and right to left. I kinda like the down to up sequence. How bout y'all?