Soft-nosed vs solid alloy bullet pros/cons?

[Son of Dorn]

I'm hopefully going to start working on a rifle project in the near future and I'm curious about something. It's gonna be chambered for 9.3x62mm Mauser and after looking at ammo online, I found the Prvi Partizan soft-nosed cartridges and the Norma solid-alloy (not lead). I've never used either, brand nor bullet type, so I wanna know: What advantages does either type have over each other? It's my understanding that a soft-nosed bullet expands better compared to an FMJ; I get that. Ditto with a solid-lead like I use in my Old West guns. But between the soft-nose and a solid-alloy bullet like the Norma uses, what's the difference, what's the better application for each type, and how might a solid-alloy contrast with solid-lead?

Thanks,
Son of Dorn

(P.S.: I'm not necessarily going to use either brand, just curious about the differences in bullet application.)

 

[spife7980]

I think youre blending lots of different terms together.


The round nose, the hollow point, the partition, the boat tail, the spire point are all "soft point" bullets. They have the soft inner lead exposed which allows for quicker expansion. In this pic none of them are solids, they are all lead cores with copper jacket however the FMJ doesnt expand similar to how a solid doesnt expand as much.

Solids can have the same sort of design features, they just do so without the lead core, usually its entirely copper or brass (Ill get to solid lead later). Typically people like solids for extreme long range as you dont have lead inside the bullet that can get disturbed or uneven. They are a solid piece of metal so there shouldnt be any discrepancies in bullets internal balance and so on from differing materials. Its easier to machine something out of a completely perfect solid material than it is to try and make a completely perfect bullet by mechanically casing one material inside another.
So typically the solids dont expand as much... unless they are designed to expand.
Here is a solid bullet... only it has the open hollow point style tip to expand easily.

So really your choice is not between two things but two choices between four things.
Conventional lead core copper jacket bullets can both expand (the soft point, hollow point, partition, spire point etc) or they can not expand (FMJ).
Solids can both expand (makers, lehigh) or not expand (warner flatlines).




So
solid target bullet
solid hunting bullet
copper-lead target bullet
copper-lead hunting bullet




So thats the normal bullets, if you want to get into just solid lead bullets only then thats a whole other pack of worms. But similar to the solid brass or copper bullets they can also have expanding vs non expanding designs. Lead bulets are usually shorter and squatter than the copper/brass solids and cant be controlled as perfectly as the copper.brass so they arent as good for long range. A bit more old school.



Design intent has just as much of an influence in the bullets behavior as materials or manufacturing process.

 

[spife7980]

Solid brass/copper are typically for long range specialties or for dangerous game where you cant afford to have a bullet splash off a charging buffalos skull, you want it to hold together and drive through the huge animal.

Soft points are for smaller game where you want the bullet to come apart quickly dumping their energy into a smaller animal instead of just passing through undistributed.

 

[Son of Dorn]

I think youre blending lots of different terms together.


The round nose, the hollow point, the partition, the boat tail, the spire point are all "soft point" bullets. They have the soft inner lead exposed which allows for quicker expansion. In this pic none of them are solids, they are all lead cores with copper jacket however the FMJ doesnt expand similar to how a solid doesnt expand as much.
View attachment 7128821

Solids can have the same sort of design features, they just do so without the lead core, usually its entirely copper or brass (Ill get to solid lead later). Typically people like solids for extreme long range as you dont have lead inside the bullet that can get disturbed or uneven. They are a solid piece of metal so there shouldnt be any discrepancies in bullets internal balance and so on from differing materials. Its easier to machine something out of a completely perfect solid material than it is to try and make a completely perfect bullet by mechanically casing one material inside another.
So typically the solids dont expand as much... unless they are designed to expand.
Here is a solid bullet... only it has the open hollow point style tip to expand easily.
View attachment 7128826



So really your choice is not between two things but two choices between four things.
Conventional lead core copper jacket bullets can both expand (the soft point, hollow point, partition, spire point etc) or they can not expand (FMJ).
Solids can both expand (makers, lehigh) or not expand (warner flatlines).




So
solid target bullet
solid hunting bullet
copper-lead target bullet
copper-lead hunting bullet




So thats the normal bullets, if you want to get into just solid lead bullets only then thats a whole other pack of worms. But similar to the solid brass or copper bullets they can also have expanding vs non expanding designs. Lead bulets are usually shorter and squatter than the copper/brass solids and cant be controlled as perfectly as the copper.brass so they arent as good for long range. A bit more old school.



Design intent has just as much of an influence in the bullets behavior as materials or manufacturing process.

The Prvi Partizan ones are the round nose ones, based on your chart. That's my fault, I should've been more specific in what I said. All of my current firearms (excluding my shotgun) either fire their respective military-issue cartridges in FMJ or else use a round-nose flat-point solid lead with no jacket of any kind, and I've never thought to feed them with anything else (my USGI 1911A1 does not like HP, for example), so this is a new concept for me.

I think I understand now but let me see if I have it right from a usage standpoint. A round nose or a spire point is good for white tail deer through big antelope, is usable on animals like bear or buffalo but may not penetrate or expand as well as I'd like. A solid brass is good for dangerous game where I want to make sure it will penetrate and expand correctly, is usable on less-dangerous game but may be a waste of power and overpenetrate or not expand as well. A solid lead will penetrate and expand fine in most circumstances but not the best option against certain animals (i.e., Cape Buffalo). That about correct?

Which, then, of those four selections (conventional round nose, conventional spire point, solid brass, or solid lead) would be best for target shooting? I think for that I should lean towards the conventional round nose or the solid lead.

Here's a link to the ammo I was looking at: https://www.midwayusa.com/93x62mm-mauser/br?cid=9604

 

[spife7980]

Targets with a 9.3x62? I would just get whatever is on sale. I doubt any of them will be real accurate. I would probably go with the prvi option based on price alone (though its unavailable)

For target shooting youre going to want something thats consistent and if long range targets aerodynamic as well so it flies good longer. If you want aerodymanic than the round nose designs will fly about as well as a baseball, get something a bit pointier. Id guess the nosler e tip or accubond would be your best bets for that from the factory ammo options above.

Solid brass/copper would be best for long range if it were in the style of a warner flatline where they get maximum aerodynamics, they wont shoot an animal well at all though since they dont have any of the hunting design features that allow it to expand.

Hunting and target are sort of at odds with one another. What makes one bullet put a big whack on an animal is also what generally makes it fly poorly through the air. With all of these big elephant bullets youre not going to get too much target oriented selection.

 

[Son of Dorn]

Targets with a 9.3x62? I would just get whatever is on sale. I doubt any of them will be real accurate. I would probably go with the prvi option based on price alone (though its unavailable)

For target shooting youre going to want something thats consistent and if long range targets aerodynamic as well so it flies good longer. If you want aerodymanic than the round nose designs will fly about as well as a baseball, get something a bit pointier. Id guess the nosler e tip or accubond would be your best bets for that from the factory ammo options above.

Solid brass/copper would be best for long range if it were in the style of a warner flatline where they get maximum aerodynamics, they wont shoot an animal well at all though since they dont have any of the hunting design features that allow it to expand.

Hunting and target are sort of at odds with one another. What makes one bullet put a big whack on an animal is also what generally makes it fly poorly through the air. With all of these big elephant bullets youre not going to get too much target oriented selection.

Based on the offerings, since the Prvi Partizan isn't available and if I can't get it elsewhere or something similar to it in price, I think my best bet overall (out of those offerings, there are others available out there, I'm sure) is this one: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1001727137?pid=394947 . Obviously it's a tad more expensive but my cousin's got a lot of reloading equipment and has offered to help me load anything I need so that should help in the long run if the brass is good and maybe I can try some different bullets that way too.

I'd still like to try the Norma solids, though, if only for a little fun and to get an idea of how they feel in case I ever opt to use them outside of the range.

EDIT: It looks like Cheaper Than Dirt has the Prvi Partizan available so it might still be an option for now; they also have a similar Sellier & Bellot cartridge for about the same price.

 

[deersniper]

The

Solid brass/copper are typically for long range specialties or for dangerous game where you cant afford to have a bullet splash off a charging buffalos skull, you want it to hold together and drive through the huge animal.

Soft points are for smaller game where you want the bullet to come apart quickly dumping their energy into a smaller animal instead of just passing through undistributed.

The commie ATF declared a bunch of Barnes pointed solids "armor piercing " and banned them. Bunch of bs.

 

[Bender]

The
The commie ATF declared a bunch of Barnes pointed solids "armor piercing " and banned them. Bunch of bs.

When this happened?

 

[Son of Dorn]

When this happened?

Around seven years ago, I think. But they still sell a wide range of solids and as far as I can tell, neither the 9.3 I might need for this build nor the .375 I might like for a future one are on the ban list.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Solids and AP is one of the most misconstrued ATF issues known to man....I have no clue why it is considered such a complicated thing.

Federal Law is: (NOTE THE BOLD WORDS)
18 USC 921(a)(17):
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

It has really nothing to do with rifle projectiles at all.....but when you have too many people building pistols in RIFLE calibers then you have ATF reviewing shit, lol......

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[deersniper]

Fuck them

It doesn't say "shall not be infringed except for pistols. No armor piercing rounds for pistols"

 

[MarinePMI]

For smaller game (deer, impala, springbok, etc) the 286gr PRVI work fine (in fact they perform VERY well on smaller game). That being said, when going after bigger or meaner (warthog, etc) the Barnes are the ticket. I'm not sure if the site is even still up, but the 9.3x62 (and it's original cousin the 9.3x57mm) have a boat load of information, load data and such at www.nitroexpress.com. A lot of good guys used to hang out there (been a few years since I was an active member). Of interest (one gy was playing around with them with surprisingly good results) is that some shell casings (I forget which at the moment) can be filled with lead and easily swagged down to .366 for cheap practice bullets (certainly no where near match quality). Others just swagged cheap .375gr bullets (much more widely available) as well. Easy, cheap practice ammo for offhand shooting/snap shooting when preparing to hunt the Africa brush.

The 9.3x62mm/9.3x57mm is an oft underated and overlooked cartridge (largely due to it's odd bore size). The SA Boers certainly used it good effect on the South African game...

 

[Son of Dorn]

For smaller game (deer, impala, springbok, etc) the 286gr PRVI work fine (in fact they perform VERY well on smaller game). That being said, when going after bigger or meaner (warthog, etc) the Barnes are the ticket. I'm not sure if the site is even still up, but the 9.3x62 (and it's original cousin the 9.3x57mm) have a boat load of information, load data and such at www.nitroexpress.com. A lot of good guys used to hang out there (been a few years since I was an active member). Of interest (one gy was playing around with them with surprisingly good results) is that some shell casings (I forget which at the moment) can be filled with lead and easily swagged down to .366 for cheap practice bullets (certainly no where near match quality). Others just swagged cheap .375gr bullets (much more widely available) as well. Easy, cheap practice ammo for offhand shooting/snap shooting when preparing to hunt the Africa brush.

The 9.3x62mm/9.3x57mm is an oft underated and overlooked cartridge (largely due to it's odd bore size). The SA Boers certainly used it good effect on the South African game...

The original project was going to be a Winchester M70, Hathcock-style but in .300 H&H. That's still on the back burner but I decided I wanted something different, so I'm doing a Mauser in 9.3. Had good history, good ballistics, and it appealed to me after I was turned onto the idea by a couple folks on here. I agree, I'm leaning towards the PP/S&B ammo for smaller game and some practice, solids for the more dangerous stuff, and I still think that the Norma Oryx I looked at would be a good general purpose round; that is, if I could only use one factory load, I think I'd go with that one. But first order of business, once the rifle's ready, is some PP/S&B to get a feel for it and try out some reloading on the brass. And a box of solids, because I'm kinda itching to see how they go, too.

 

[MarinePMI]

The big thing about the 286gr loads, IME, is that loading for them puts them where the stock sights on regular/older 9.3x62mm iron sights are lined up/regulated. Not necessarily required for your custom build, but for guns like mine (several older Husqvarna rifles) it comes in handy (even though one that I have, I have fitted with a reproduction Rigby sight can get around that). BTW, NECG now sells that same type of sight for quasi mass production (back 10 years ago, it was one guy making about 6 of them a year in his garage). This assumes you're looking for that period correct "safari" type rifle...

BTW, here's a quick post/mini article I did on the fitting of that sight (still in the white in the photos) to a neighbor's 9.3x62mm rifle.

http://www.varminter.com/forums/topic/13706-fitting-a-rigby-style-peep-sight/

Hard to believe that was 10 years ago...smh

 

[Son of Dorn]

Yeah, I'm trying my best for period-correct. Have to rebarrel the rifle but I want to pull the existing irons off and reuse them; they should work fine and if not, I've already had a look at the ones on NECG so I know where to get them.

Actually the part I'm really having trouble with is figuring out a good oldschool scope mount that, if not 100% period-correct for a prewar/WWI/interwar rifle, matches the general aesthetic I'm looking for. Been looking at repro Kar98k mounts, mostly.

As for the bullets, I do plan on using the 285/286gr ones. The PP/S&B and Norma Oryx both come loaded with them; Barnes offers two 286gr solids on their website that I'll happily give a try. If I can find factory 285/286 solid loads, I'll try them too.