Solution for "Cold weld" bullet and case neck bonding?

[Paqueo]

To avoid the so called "cold weld" between bullet and case, anybody tried applying a bullet lubricant like liquid alox from Lee, commonly used on cast lead bullets?
Roll the bullets over a small amount of alox.
Allow to dry and seat them.
Remove the excess from the bullet and neck.
Will try it soon

 

[918v]

Graphite is better

 

[sinister]

Cold soldering hasn't been a thing since Hatcher wrote about it happening in the 1920s. I don't believe tin is used in modern gilding metal jackets.

 

[Juggerxxx]

Leave the carbon inside of the necks. As in don’t clean the brass to well.

 

[LawnMM]

52k psi ignited by a primer usually fixes it

 

[Bender]

52k psi ignited by a primer usually fixes it

Can I look down the barrel to watch the fix?

 

[jbell]

Can I look down the barrel to watch the fix?

It’s actually the only way to confirm it’s happening...

 

[Bender]

It’s actually the only way to confirm it’s happening...

That’s what I was thinking, let me look down my 6.5 barrel......man this thing is too long, I can’t reach the trigger. I’m Gunn get a fork to reach ....... ok, let me look again and try to touch the tri

 

[just browsing]

Flitz Tumbler Additive and Terrarium bedding. Cases in for a few hours, come out polished and slick as snot. It creates a sort of film that stays on for a few firings, works awesome.

Tried the whole dry lube, graphite deal but honestly I’m just too lazy to mess with it.

 

[LawnMM]

This something ya'll lose a lot of sleep over?

I've got rounds I loaded years ago I'm sure work just fine. Most get fired before they're around long enough for anything else to happen. ??‍

 

[LeadZeke]

It is still an issue. Enough of one that some .mil ammo is made certain ways to mitigate it.

The issue isn't that the ammo won't run, it is that the weld will increase chamber pressure beyond a point you'd want it to be for accuracy and/or reliable function in some cases. Usually isn't a problem, but if you are on the high end of a load already it can be, and wild fliers are always a problem.

It is also an issue if you want to break down and reload old cases as it can cause bullet and/or case damage lowering the amount of usable components you get back. One trick is to use a seater die to break the bullet free, but that isn't foolproof and you can still crush necks or tear jackets that way.

Supposedly the dry graphite in the neck fixes it enough to not be an issue, but I haven't been able to confirm that as I never let ammo sit THAT long. And I don't think almost anyone would in the civilian world outside of SHTF.

 

[LawnMM]

The military is still shooting 50 Cal ammo loaded in the 40s during the last big one.

I'd think if this was an issue we'd hear about it more often. This sounds like a bad excuse on a PRS stage "wasn't my fault, bullets were cold welded in the cases!!! I swear!!!"

 

[Steel head]

Can I look down the barrel to watch the fix?

please don’t!
You have important work to do here!


uhg
Too late

 

[Steel head]

That’s what I was thinking, let me look down my 6.5 barrel......man this thing is too long, I can’t reach the trigger. I’m Gunn get a fork to reach ....... ok, let me look again and try to touch the tri

here lies Bender,,,,,,troll, transvestite, dumbass.
We’ll miss you rest in pieces.

 

[918v]

The military is still shooting 50 Cal ammo loaded in the 40s during the last big one.

I'd think if this was an issue we'd hear about it more often. This sounds like a bad excuse on a PRS stage "wasn't my fault, bullets were cold welded in the cases!!! I swear!!!"

It’s an issue with reloads not factory military ammo.

 

[Bandit320]

Just curious, why reloads and not factory military ammo.

Mike

 

[918v]

Factory brass has a layer of wax and or shellac sealer between the neck and the bullet.

 

[Bandit320]

Thanks. Wouldn’t some available bullet treatment, HbN, moly, graphite, etc, serve the same purpose? Thanks again.

Mike

 

[WeiserBucks]

Ditch your super awesome pin tumbler and leave the carbon in the neck , problem solved. Quit being super anal retentive about your ammo looking like some facepage post and just fucking shoot.

 

[LeadZeke]

Military ammo is loaded specifically with sealants in many cases as well, especially for 7.62 and .50. You can read about it, it used to be pitch-based. It will not happen to these rounds.

And yes, if you read the post above graphite is supposed to solve the issue. But I have not tested it nor have I seen anywhere on the net anyone do a conclusive lengthy test. Probably because we are talking about spans of decades to get the really bad effects.

 

[918v]

Thanks. Wouldn’t some available bullet treatment, HbN, moly, graphite, etc, serve the same purpose? Thanks again.

Mike

Not really. Bare necks scrape a lot of it off. It’s better to treat the neck. It’s easy.

 

[Mordamer]

Tumble in Walnut or corncob and this won't be a problem. The thin layer of dust left on the cases acts like graphite.

 

[Steel head]

Ditch your super awesome pin tumbler and leave the carbon in the neck , problem solved. Quit being super anal retentive about your ammo looking like some facepage post and just fucking shoot.

lol
This!

 

[TheGerman]

Can I look down the barrel to watch the fix?

Thing is, you have to do it at least 2 or 3 times.

 

[mcfred]

Leave the carbon inside of the necks. As in don’t clean the brass to well.

Ditch your super awesome pin tumbler and leave the carbon in the neck

This works for me. During a match I can always locate my .223 Rem brass amongst everyone else's shiny, pretty shit. Mine's corroded and the necks are all black.

 

[Huskydriver]

The military is still shooting 50 Cal ammo loaded in the 40s during the last big one.

I'd think if this was an issue we'd hear about it more often. This sounds like a bad excuse on a PRS stage "wasn't my fault, bullets were cold welded in the cases!!! I swear!!!"

Truth! We got a case in 2010 issued from Vietnam every one went bang

 

[Paqueo]

Stop the mess of moly on bullets some years ago and not interested on starting with HBN. Leave the carbon seems the easiest solution. just a matter of changing the case preparation procedure. Thanks and by the way Merry Christmas and all the best for 2020!

 

[kindabitey]

Maybe this will help. I can't help but think the cold weld (galvanic reaction) is in the same category as the old Bullseye powder flashover
theory. Nobody has either scientifically proved or disproved it beyond doubt.
I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, I'm simply saying I've never had it be an issue for me.
The chart below indicates there should not be an issue with copper and brasses.

 

[Paqueo]

there should not be an issue with copper and brasses

Yes but brasses/copper is red

 

[kindabitey]

Yes but brasses/copper is red

Since you mentioned it, if you use the copper in the vertical column and the brasses in the horizontal, it's light green.
However if you reverse that, it's red.

 

[918v]

There’s theory and then there’s reality, where bullet pull increases the longer you allow the ammo to sit. This causes an increase in ES and a decrease in accuracy. Placing a layer of insulating material between the bullet and the neck prevents all of this. Maybe it’s not corrosion, or galvanic bonding, but whatever it is it causes an increase in bullet pull.

 

[j-dubya]

There’s theory and then there’s reality, where bullet pull increases the longer you allow the ammo to sit. This causes an increase in ES and a decrease in accuracy. Placing a layer of insulating material between the bullet and the neck prevents all of this. Maybe it’s not corrosion, or galvanic bonding, but whatever it is it causes an increase in bullet pull.

Any updates to your procedure or are you still running the ‘soak brass in the car wash solution for an hour’ method?

 

[Paqueo]

I'm salt bath annealing my brass and like to clean the brass properly before submersing the necks on the salt solution not to bake the carbon residue. So I might start using graphite on bullets or inside necks before sitting the bullets to avoid bonding between them. I usually reload before a predicted use of ammo but like to keep a small amount for any emergency that might arise and wanted to have confidence of LD zero and not be concerned that the ammo sat aside for a few months.

 

[XLR308]

I pulled some bullets and dumped the powder from some 300wm ammo I loaded for a rifle I haven't owned in 15 years last month.
The bullets came out with little effort and zero damage on the jackets with a Hornady collet puller.
I would have to say the whole idea is either bullshit or self induced by bad reloading practices with modern components.

 

[bobke]

View attachment 7208719

 

[RTH1800]

Cold welding is real. I have seen it so bad it filled the case with green crud. Welded primers in etc.

 

[ScottDWallace]

Load long in bulk and then run the next days ammo through the seater to final depth.

 

[RTH1800]

^^^
This is the solution.

 

[918v]

Any updates to your procedure or are you still running the ‘soak brass in the car wash solution for an hour’ method?

I moved on to Imperial graphite.

 

[hengehold]

Just curious, why reloads and not factory military ammo.

Mike

do electrons transfer from one material to another through physical contact? According to my college chemistry class the answer is yes. However, I think the claims of bullet/case welding together and effecting accuracy is a bunch of BS.

I shoot a lot of NRA highpower and LR which are games that reward for higher levels of precision by virtue of awarding hit values with scoring rings and not just awarding a hit or a miss. In those matches I have used hand loaded ammo that was up to 5 years old at 600 yards and did not see any degradation of accuracy.
One thing to note is that When reloading I do not clean my brass in any way. I also lube the necks with dry moly powder and steel shot. This results in a layer of carbon and moly powder between brass neck and copper bullet. Consequently, my reloads have a barrier between the metals. I do not do this intentionally to mitigate the welding of bullet and case. It is just the byproduct of making accurate ammo with the fewest number of steps required.

cheers,
-TH

 

[918v]

It’s not a bunch of bs. It is a fact that a bare bullet in a bare neck will fuse over time and this is easily provable by trying to seat the bullet deeper in the case or trying to pull bullets after a several months or longer.

 

[Alpine 338]

Since you mentioned it, if you use the copper in the vertical column and the brasses in the horizontal, it's light green.
However if you reverse that, it's red.

Depends if the metal is used as a cathode or an anode. For example, typically a communication ground site will use a positive ground in their battery system and equipment to prevent cathodic corrosion.

So in theory, if you have metals that are dissimilar, but compatible without any current flow, you shouldn't have any galvanic, or cathodic corrosion, unless you're burying the bottom half of the loaded rounds in the ground, with an electrode attached to the bullet.

Now there are other things that can cause problems, such as high humidity, cyclic tempature changes, etc.

 

[mcfred]

When I anneal or ultrasonically clean brass I re-lube necks with some moly powder (MoS2) in some lead shot before seating. Basically a DIY version of this product. I'm pretty sure you can do the same thing with HBN if you just cannot get past the black residue you get on your fingers.

I've only applied this stuff for consistent seating pressures/neck tension. Personally, I don't give a crap about corrosion between a neck and bullet because I'm not storing ammo for decades (and the ammo I have stored for decades never had a problem anyway). There are larger, more immediate concerns with "precision" ammo than long term storage. Why complicate things?

 

[XLR308]

Just for a little experiment I will pull a couple of bullets from some 30-30 factory ammo I have that I believe is from the late 70's or early 80's that definitely hasn't been stored with extreme care and shows fairly heavy oxidation.
I will also put some pictures up of the 300wm bullets I pulled last month that had been load for atleast 15 years for a side by side comparison.

 

[918v]

That’s not going to be of any value. Factory ammo is loaded via a process where there is a heavy coat of wax between the neck and the bullet.

 

[XLR308]

That’s not going to be of any value. Factory ammo is loaded via a process where there is a heavy coat of wax between the neck and the bullet.

What about the 300wm ammo that was reloaded and sat for 15+ years ?
No wax, lube of any kind either graphite moly or anything else was used on those and zero evidence of any issues.
Still have the powder as well and it looks pristine, I dumped them into an empty water bottle.

 

[918v]

That might work as long as it wasn’t loaded using a traditional process where the case was cleaned in a vibratory tumbler and there’s media dust and carbon in between the bullet and the neck.

 

[XLR308]

That might work as long as it wasn’t loaded using a traditional process where the case was cleaned in a vibratory tumbler and there’s media dust and carbon in between the bullet and the neck.

That has basically allways been my process.
Media tumble with corn cob only at that point in time although it was treated corn cob not sure if that makes any difference.
Brush the necks out, resize, prime, charge and seat a bullet.
I can with certainty say that I have never cleaned my brass to the point that there is no carbon left in the necks like is possible with wet tumbling or even ultra sonic cleaning.
I just never felt like that was necessary and am not of the sparkly is best crowd I guess that is what is different than what you are describing unless I misunderstood you somehow.
I don't think it is completely improbable just that it is a byproduct of improper technique since I have never had an issue with it the way I load ammo.

 

[918v]

Cases cleaned using ultrasonic and wet stainless tumbling have this problem.

 

[XLR308]

Cases cleaned using ultrasonic and wet stainless tumbling have this problem.

I guess that would help explain why I have never had an issue then, that and on new brass I have allways swabbed the inside of the necks with Lee sizing paste on a q-tip.
Just enough to have a light film or a barrier of protection considering the context of this thread.

 

[XLR308]

Entire point of this whole thread....

I went back and started reading through it again ?
I have been doing it that way for so long I guess I never really considered any other way or the problems that can arise from deviating from that method.
I'm a bonehead sometimes like that.