Certainly a potential issue with direct thread, if the shoulders on the barrel and/or can aren't perfectly square and mate up properly with each other.
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Suppressors Solved: Area 419 Adapter and TBAC Ultra9 Strike!
- Thread starter GBMaryland
- Start date
Yep, just pointing out the net costs would be the same for those criticizing the Area419 system. I agree, I wouldnt even need 10 can adapters so it would likely end up being cheaper.
Where it gets really expensive with the A419 system is if you want adapters AND brakes for each rifles.
Most other systems use a brake as the mount. With the A419 system, that's an additional cost.
The mounts I use are ~$90, and they are also brakes. The Hellfire is $170. Though to the credit of A419, their hellfire will act as a much better muzzle brake than my mount. But arguably not as good of a suppressor mount.
Everything has it's tradeoffs. I think the A419 system is arguably the best one (besides direct thread), IF you also want to use some of the most effective muzzle brakes on top of being suppressed. But I think there's better suppressor mounts if that's not a main objective.
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Oh I know.
I direct thread on my hunting rifle with a Griffin Armament, and I converted to Dead Air brakes on other rifles by using a Keymo adapter for my other non-DA cans. As mentioned it gets carbon shit everywhere on that brake though. End up looking like a burnt dookie after use.
So 419 got back to me and put a mount on the lathe... they're telling me that one they are sending looks GTG.
Turns out I have two of the mounts, soooo, I asked if they can find another one.
The word of caution that I have for everyone is:
MAKE SURE YOU SURE USE AN ALIGNMENT/WITNESS ROD WHEN INITIALLY SETTING UP THE STACK!!
Once you know it's GTG, then you can walk away and know you're in good condition.
Fortunately for me, all the vendors involved in this have great customer service and gave me the straight scoop.
Turns out I have two of the mounts, soooo, I asked if they can find another one.
The word of caution that I have for everyone is:
MAKE SURE YOU SURE USE AN ALIGNMENT/WITNESS ROD WHEN INITIALLY SETTING UP THE STACK!!
Once you know it's GTG, then you can walk away and know you're in good condition.
Fortunately for me, all the vendors involved in this have great customer service and gave me the straight scoop.
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So....I can't remember. I know you sent them back a uni adapter but did they get the mount back with excessive run out ?
And if so, did they indicate what they found? I'm sort of in the mind that between you and @Westbound 's experience that they would want to be looking at batch issues and possible process issues and perhaps let people know that they have found the root cause and corrected it. I kind of think this is not a one or two off as I would bet they set up and make these things in batches so there is a chance that a batch(s) is bad....or am I totally off base.
If not, did they not ask for the offending mount back....like maybe both of them?
It just seems to me that them sending you a specifically QA'd mount(s) to fix your specific problem doesn't really reassure others who have bought/plan to buy this system.
And I'm def borrowing your rod if I get my can before dying of old age! haha
And, as I believe I have said multiple times, I'm a big 419 fan and think their products just radiate top shelf quality. But, you are in fact really lucky that this error wasn't just a bit greater and didn't hammer your baffles instead of just a bit of a light strike on the end cap.
Thoughts
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I run the TBAC SR system on many of my rifles - Idunno, maybe 12-15 or so. That's around $2000 in mounts alone. Seems like a lot of money, but it's not all that much in the context of the cans themselves (+ stamps), hosts, ammo, actual cost of range time, etc.
Suppressor mounts are kinda low on my list of places to spend money. If a system works, I'm willing to invest time and money in it.
As a side note, I'm not a big DT fan. Barrel steel isn't all that hard by fastener standards, and those threads are a bit too fine for me to be comfortable with cranking a device on and off in field conditions. For dedicated host/suppressor combos, it's fine, but that's not how I'm currently setup.
Suppressor mounts are kinda low on my list of places to spend money. If a system works, I'm willing to invest time and money in it.
As a side note, I'm not a big DT fan. Barrel steel isn't all that hard by fastener standards, and those threads are a bit too fine for me to be comfortable with cranking a device on and off in field conditions. For dedicated host/suppressor combos, it's fine, but that's not how I'm currently setup.
FWIW: Area 419 is sending me two CB Mounts from a different production run and is doing so overnight. (They checked them for runout in a lathe...)
Problem solved.
Problem solved.
The first mount was purchased on July 28th, 2021.
The second mount was purchased on April, 15th, 2022.
They both have excessive runout... sucks.
A419 has excellent customer service.
Glad (though not surprised at all), that they are helping you out in an expedited manner.
Have I told everyone to buy a witness rod....?
BUY A WITNESS ROD... DON'T TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR IMPOSSIBLE TO REPLACE SUPPRESSORS.
Any vendor can have a bad day.... $60.00 for a tool that will save your butt is WELL worth it.
What I used...
www.griffinarmament.com
BUY A WITNESS ROD... DON'T TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR IMPOSSIBLE TO REPLACE SUPPRESSORS.
Any vendor can have a bad day.... $60.00 for a tool that will save your butt is WELL worth it.
What I used...
Suppressor Alignment Check Rod - .22 Cal, 6.5mm, 6.8mm, .30 Cal, .338 Cal, 9mm, .45 Cal
Griffin Armament is an industry leading manufacturer of suppressors, firearms, and parts for discriminating end users
www.griffinarmament.com
Public service announcement: I sent Josh from PVA a nice bottle of whisky... If anyone else finds this thread useful, send Josh a bottle! 
Have I told everyone to buy a witness rod....?
BUY A WITNESS ROD... DON'T TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR IMPOSSIBLE TO REPLACE SUPPRESSORS.
Any vendor can have a bad day.... $60.00 for a tool that will save your butt is WELL worth it.
What I used...
Suppressor Alignment Check Rod - .22 Cal, 6.5mm, 6.8mm, .30 Cal, .338 Cal, 9mm, .45 Cal
Griffin Armament is an industry leading manufacturer of suppressors, firearms, and parts for discriminating end users
If you have the means, you can also make your own from drill rod.
McMaster-Carr
McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.
I can't recall all the correct sizes off the top of my head, but it's not hard to figure out, or just do a web search. Don't try to make this a slip-fit with the rifling lands; it's not a pin gage.
Buy the 3ft length. Cut about an inch off the ends (it's usually cut with some sort of sheer and is smashed accordingly). Cut what remains in half. Deburr and chamfer. Roll across a flat surface to confirm acceptable runout. Give the other half to a buddy so that he doesn't kill his suppressor.
Hello my friend. Your problem is solved and I’m very glad of it.
But what if others who may have these mounts from what was either a bad batch ir they just took their eye off the ball on these mounts ( which would shock me as 419 does superb work in general).
Example, I have a mount here bought in Aug 2021 so very close to the purchase date of yours. I am waiting on my can so haven’t been able to check it (but I can come over w it and my gun and use your can and rod to test it! Haha).
I doubt that 419 tracks sales by batch on these type if items so yes, it does reinforce the message of testing w a rod before possibly hammering your can.
My only disappointment is that I still would be happy to see 419 come here and address this, provide any “batch” info they might know, and reassure us that they have checked their processes, training, whatever to ensure the root cause has been mitigated.
Cheers
I come here and address issues VERY regularly, so that disappointment seems pretty myopic and early.
The engineering and lathe teams spent a fair amount of time this morning building a fresh CMM program for these, isolating the issue, and are going through all stock on hand to throw out what needs to be thrown out. Once they are pleased, you'll get a complete reply here, but don't expect that before we have OP's mounts back and in hand to confirm it was the same issue.
Thank you!
Myopic and perhaps early but also very mild and follows many compliments in this thread from me about 419 as a top shelf manf of very high quality items and the pains I and others took to absolutely NOT throw 419 under the bus.
I’ll look forward to your later report and continue to wish you and 419 the best of fortunes.
Cheers.
While I certainly appreciate the gesture it's not necessary. I'm just glad we could get things straight for you.Public service announcement: I sent Josh from PVA a nice bottle of whisky... If anyone else finds this thread useful, send Josh a bottle!
It sounds like 419's on top of things as well and I have no worries that they'll take care of you too. Have a great weekend.
@flyer1a if you want the other videos we took of the various tests for your internal investigation just send me a message, I'm happy to assist
The issue ended up being… As to be expected… A combination of issues.
Part of the problem was the run out on the mount part itself.
But it was compounded by the fact that I had a small amount of Loctite that got on the mating surface for the 419 mount.
It was a very small amount, but when added to the issue present in the mount… We had a problem.
Fortunately the problem was the bullet sliding off the inside of the end cap opening.
Literally we could see copper residue on the hole in the endcap… Which technically constitutes a Baffle strike.
We continued to see that behavior with both the new mount and the blue Loctite issue resolved.
So we were extremely lucky with respect to damage on the supressor….
Moreover had I had a 30 caliber suppressor we would never of known that we had an issue.
I will get the parts back to area 419 as quickly as possible.
As I said before everybody involved has been fantastic from a customer service standpoint and that hasn’t changed.
It’s my opinion that everybody has issues and they all have to get resolved as you find them. And this situation seems to be resolving itself as you would expect it to, and relatively quickly at that.
Part of the problem was the run out on the mount part itself.
But it was compounded by the fact that I had a small amount of Loctite that got on the mating surface for the 419 mount.
It was a very small amount, but when added to the issue present in the mount… We had a problem.
Fortunately the problem was the bullet sliding off the inside of the end cap opening.
Literally we could see copper residue on the hole in the endcap… Which technically constitutes a Baffle strike.
We continued to see that behavior with both the new mount and the blue Loctite issue resolved.
So we were extremely lucky with respect to damage on the supressor….
Moreover had I had a 30 caliber suppressor we would never of known that we had an issue.
I will get the parts back to area 419 as quickly as possible.
As I said before everybody involved has been fantastic from a customer service standpoint and that hasn’t changed.
It’s my opinion that everybody has issues and they all have to get resolved as you find them. And this situation seems to be resolving itself as you would expect it to, and relatively quickly at that.
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I got the new old stock adapter from area 419.
Unfortunately they only sent one and I have two of these adapters… I had thought they were sending two.
There is a difference in appearance between the two. One of them definitely had a newer design finish… Better beveled edges etc.
Unfortunately they only sent one and I have two of these adapters… I had thought they were sending two.
There is a difference in appearance between the two. One of them definitely had a newer design finish… Better beveled edges etc.
Just adding another data point. Since my Ultra 7 is still in jail, I took my Hellfire mount to @GBMaryland 's home and we screwed it on his gun using his adapter and Ultra 9. All good.
The alignment rod is pretty dang dead center so my mount is good to go.
I bought mine last Aug...perhaps when they just came back in stock if I remember correctly. @GBMaryland bought his last July.
Now if I can just get this damn suppressor.
The alignment rod is pretty dang dead center so my mount is good to go.
I bought mine last Aug...perhaps when they just came back in stock if I remember correctly. @GBMaryland bought his last July.
Now if I can just get this damn suppressor.
FWIW: @Baron23‘s 419 mount looks just like the one I had replaced. This means that there are known good parts of the latest design. (in the picture above you can sell that clearly the parts are slightly different.)
so now it’s a matter if be able to test run out on the parts…
so now it’s a matter if be able to test run out on the parts…
Took the gun the the range yesterday… dead on…. Ot issues with the supressor.
Thanks to @GBMaryland, I decided to order an alignment rod to see if I also received a 'bad' Hellfire suppressor mount. And guess what? I did. So I have reached out to Area 419, and there are working at getting a new batch of Hellfire suppressor mounts made and will ship me a replacement as soon as possible.Have I told everyone to buy a witness rod....?
BUY A WITNESS ROD... DON'T TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR IMPOSSIBLE TO REPLACE SUPPRESSORS.
Any vendor can have a bad day.... $60.00 for a tool that will save your butt is WELL worth it.
What I used...
Suppressor Alignment Check Rod - .22 Cal, 6.5mm, 6.8mm, .30 Cal, .338 Cal, 9mm, .45 Cal
Griffin Armament is an industry leading manufacturer of suppressors, firearms, and parts for discriminating end users
This is why I love this community. I never would have thought to check my suppressor alignment and would have learned the 'hard way' that it wasn't aligned.
Thanks again for posting your experience.
@GBMaryland
@owyheerat - Nooooooooo!! He's a local friend of mine. If you blow his head up any larger we won't be able to live with him! haha
Just joking...he's a great guy and a good friend.
Even after 419 clears this up...or even if one doesn't use 419 and uses another product/brand....going forward its now my personal process to check everything adapter/mount used with a suppressor just to make sure instead of possibly sending one and destroying a suppressor you waited a year for.
Glad you caught your problem before shooting it up.
Cheers
Without a doubt it was pretty easy to see, after the fact, that the alignment rod was not centered in the bad suppressor mount.
419 Barrel Adapter --- 419 CB Suppressor Mount --- Suppressor
So all you really need to do is use the rod on the adapter and mount... and it will be clear that it is not in the center.
419 Barrel Adapter --- 419 CB Suppressor Mount --- Suppressor
So all you really need to do is use the rod on the adapter and mount... and it will be clear that it is not in the center.
Ah, you don't think it was easier to see the angular offset reflected in deflection at the muzzle with the additional 9" of the suppressor length?
I have been using alignment rods since the very first time I sent a round down range with my very first suppressor I sent the can down range as well. The can was fine but I for sure I checked it with an alignment rod before trying again. (It had been my own failure to properly mount the omega 300.). I post this just to make everyone else feel good with schadenfreude- you are welcome!
@GBMaryland @flyer1a @Zak Smith
So, after a bit over 13 months, I finally got my Ultr-7 in .264/6.5mm out of jail.
This morning I took the Hellfire brake off of the gun, installed the Area 419 mount on the Ultra-7 (there was already an uni adapter on the end of the barrel), and slid a Griffin Armaments .260 alignment rod down the bore. This is on a Bartlein MTU barrel spun by Ern at Altus (who seems to do absolutely fabulous work).
Now, these uni adapters and the 419 mount for TBAC were bough at approximately the same time that @GBMaryland had bought his. Aug of 2021.
Below is a pic of the alignment and its perfect. Note that the rod is .004" under the bore diameter of .264 so the VERY small bit of droop toward the bottom is a result of that and if you flip the gun over it goes the other way. Its wonderful
Clearly Area 419 does not have an endemic issue with these mounts, a couple of exceptions seemingly notwithstanding. That and they told us that they reviewed their CNC config, fixed up something or other, and inspected remaining mounts in stock.
So, in my opinion, shooters should buy these items from 419 with the same very high degree of confidence in quality that we have always had with 419 products. I do love the handful of items I have gotten from 419 and expect to continue to do so....even if I am "myopic and premature" haha
However, I do think this whole thread speaks to the importance of having an alignment rod to check suppressor fit. Compared to the cost of a potentially damaged suppressor, they are cheap.
So, after a bit over 13 months, I finally got my Ultr-7 in .264/6.5mm out of jail.
This morning I took the Hellfire brake off of the gun, installed the Area 419 mount on the Ultra-7 (there was already an uni adapter on the end of the barrel), and slid a Griffin Armaments .260 alignment rod down the bore. This is on a Bartlein MTU barrel spun by Ern at Altus (who seems to do absolutely fabulous work).
Now, these uni adapters and the 419 mount for TBAC were bough at approximately the same time that @GBMaryland had bought his. Aug of 2021.
Below is a pic of the alignment and its perfect. Note that the rod is .004" under the bore diameter of .264 so the VERY small bit of droop toward the bottom is a result of that and if you flip the gun over it goes the other way. Its wonderful
Clearly Area 419 does not have an endemic issue with these mounts, a couple of exceptions seemingly notwithstanding. That and they told us that they reviewed their CNC config, fixed up something or other, and inspected remaining mounts in stock.
So, in my opinion, shooters should buy these items from 419 with the same very high degree of confidence in quality that we have always had with 419 products. I do love the handful of items I have gotten from 419 and expect to continue to do so....even if I am "myopic and premature" haha
However, I do think this whole thread speaks to the importance of having an alignment rod to check suppressor fit. Compared to the cost of a potentially damaged suppressor, they are cheap.
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Did you ever consider that this might be part of my battle plan?
Hey all, owe an update/closure here.
In our most recent run of these parts we swapped the machine we were running them on. In this change and reprogram we ended up with some threads on the suppressor mount (the ones that interface with the universal adapter) being cut a little too shallow. What that means is the lockup against the large face of the UA was never being made, rather the stop was against a thread stop. The adapters would gauge correctly on the plus gauges, they just weren't going far enough into the adapter to get all the way to the relief.
This impacted a good portion of our most recent batch, and all remaining units from that batch have been tossed. As of today, we are also resending all purchasers of mounts from that batch a new mount that has been corrected. If you were impacted by this, you would already know.
Not a great situation, or our best work, but it happened, so we are rectifying it as best we can!
In our most recent run of these parts we swapped the machine we were running them on. In this change and reprogram we ended up with some threads on the suppressor mount (the ones that interface with the universal adapter) being cut a little too shallow. What that means is the lockup against the large face of the UA was never being made, rather the stop was against a thread stop. The adapters would gauge correctly on the plus gauges, they just weren't going far enough into the adapter to get all the way to the relief.
This impacted a good portion of our most recent batch, and all remaining units from that batch have been tossed. As of today, we are also resending all purchasers of mounts from that batch a new mount that has been corrected. If you were impacted by this, you would already know.
Not a great situation, or our best work, but it happened, so we are rectifying it as best we can!
This is great news. Thanks for the update. I have been waiting on 2 replacements since this thread started. Hopefully I will see a shipping notification email soon
Edit : Just received shipping notification. I should receive my replacement by the end of the week. Big shout out to Area419!
Edit : Just received shipping notification. I should receive my replacement by the end of the week. Big shout out to Area419!
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Exactly how you would want a company to rectify the "issue".
Kudos to @flyer1a and the crew at Area 419.
Kudos to @flyer1a and the crew at Area 419.
Hi @flyer1a - thanks so very much for the update.
With respect to the quote above, does this indicate that people whose orders fell into this batch have already received direct comm from Area 419 on this?
I only ask because as @GBMaryland mentioned, we both bought the whole Hellfire kit at the same time...Aug 2021. To be exact, my order is dated Aug 22, 2021. Using an alignment rod, mine seems to be fine to the extent we can determine it.
So, absent any direct comm from Area 419, may I assume that my mount is not in the effected batch?
Thanks
I got my replacement CB mount from 419 shortly after this last part of the thread. As usual, great customer service…
Interestingly, two of my suppressors that were in jail came back after 7 and 5 months. So yesterday, I had cause to try the Area 419 mounts and barrel adapters… everything worked like a charm.
When its working properly, its fantasic.
Interestingly, two of my suppressors that were in jail came back after 7 and 5 months. So yesterday, I had cause to try the Area 419 mounts and barrel adapters… everything worked like a charm.
When its working properly, its fantasic.
I have a TBAC Ultra 7 that's gotta be close to getting out of jail (check cashed 12/6/21 using a NFA Trust). This thread caused me to check my TBAC adaptor I purchased a few months ago. I'm very happy with the results. I checked it after indicating a barrel blank in on a lathe to less than .001 TIR. Here's the video that shows less than .002 TIR using a .0001" indicator.
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From the thread where we find the amount of runout that is causing strikes…
As long as it’s ~0.001 you should be GTG… as that’s the amount the TBAC CB devices have.
As long as it’s ~0.001 you should be GTG… as that’s the amount the TBAC CB devices have.
Yeah, but I’d still stick a bore gauge thru the can and mount and into the barrel as no matter what anything indicates, this is the final operational config and a guide will show if your projectile will clear everything.
No?
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