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Gunsmithing Some epoxy questions.

goodgorilla

goodgorilla

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 16, 2013
425
1
Lecanto, FL
#1
It's still about 2 months out before I bed my rifle, but an interesting plot twist has happened yesterday. My really good friend who is an awesome engineer informed me that he has like every kind of filler for the epoxy, and the chemicals to create them. I didn't really believe him, but he showed me his rather large collection of epoxy fillers and the mixing chemical. I briefly explained the bedding process to him, and he is willing to donate the materials I need for the epoxy but I want to do a little research first by asking some questions. What would the difference be between devcon titanium, and some plain jane titanium dust mixed with the epoxy chemical? Is ceramic filler better than Titanium? My friend is giving me the impression that ceramic is better than titanium for filler.
 
#2
You can look at the spec sheets of Devcon's ceramic vs titanium epoxy on their website. Based on comments he has made and some pictures he has posted, I've suspected Chad Dixon uses their ceramic stuff.
 
#5
Without trying to come off as crass, your friend may be a genius in the industry on the other hand, he might not know all that much about bedding a rifle or release agents. If you know what works and what you at least think you want to use fine. Your friend is an unknown experiment.

I have a friend who really is a pharmacuetical engineer (like I can't even spell that!), I still buy asprirn from my drug store.

Ultimately it is your rifle and stock do what you want, but to try and give advice on this, no slight to your friend, it is your experiment.
 
#6
George Az said:
Without trying to come off as crass, your friend may be a genius in the industry on the other hand, he might not know all that much about bedding a rifle or release agents. If you know what works and what you at least think you want to use fine. Your friend is an unknown experiment.

I have a friend who really is a pharmacuetical engineer (like I can't even spell that!), I still buy asprirn from my drug store.

Ultimately it is your rifle and stock do what you want, but to try and give advice on this, no slight to your friend, it is your experiment.
Click to expand...

I have a bit of time to make a decision on the epoxy, so I think I will write down some of the product information from the fillers he has and look them up. Does anyone know if there is anything special about using devcon titanium over normal titanium dust? I wonder if the mixing ratio would be different using the industrial chemicals. I am probably over thinking it, once I show him exactly how to bed the thing I'm sure he would know what would be appropriate for mixing and product choice. I have to wait a week before I can speak to him again, lots of activity going on at his business this week. I just don't want to sound stupid begging for the titanium dust when he wants to give me the ceramic.
 
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#8
Why would you experiment with your friend on your rifle rather than use a tried and true product like Devcon? Additionally, the added expense of Titanium is not really necessary. The steel putty works great and despite other claims, I have never had it rust. This has been tested before and being an avid hunter my rifle gets wet a lot.
I've tried steel, aluminum, and titanium. I actually prefer the steel for performance, cost and ease of use.
I hope this helps. Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
#9
Special_KG said:
Why would you experiment with your friend on your rifle rather than use a tried and true product like Devcon?
Click to expand...

That's the point of this thread. I'm going to have to observe the products to see what they are made of chemically, I can't do that for like another week though.

I will probably end up using the devcon epoxy resin with the industrial titanium powder. But who knows.
 
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#11
If it's not your only rifle, or otherwise extremely special, it might be worthwhile to try something different. Obviously, I'd be interested in your results. :)
 
#13
For shit sakes guy! Marine text is boat epoxy. What ship captain knows any thing about bedding rifles... There is 100 ways to skin a cat and 100 epoxies that would work for bedding a rifle. Wonder why Chad Dixion doesn't use JB weld , and Marine text to bed rifles? Maybe he doesn't know shit about boats.. I'm not sure what your answer would be but I'll stab at it. Things I'd be looking at... Flow rate when mixed up, does it retain bubbles, set time, hardness, shrink rate %, workability, can you file it! sand it! does paint stick to it! Oh and what release agent will work with it.. I'd and advise a test on a scrap piece of metal. Stuff like that.... Hope it helps, don't let these guys fool you there's a lot of great info on here. You just got to wait sometimes till all the shit rolls off and it comes up......
 
#15
I'm a composite engineer, and I can empathize with your friend as I am always trying to help people with their projects, but the bottom-line is that gunsmiths have been perfecting the process for a while and have worked out the kinks. There are a lot of engineering considerations at play, such as thermal expansion, hygral (moisture) expansion, fracture toughness, etc. all of which have to be calculated for. A home-grown formulation may work, but why be a guinea pig when no sacrifice is demanded, especially when that guinea pig may be an expensive composite stock? I don't go around trying to make a new resin system for each new project unless I absolutely need to. The point of engineering is to make things better with the least amount of effort.
 
#16
I'm just going to use the devcon so I hope my friend doesn't take it as an insult. There are to many unknowns for me to be screwing with. If I was a gunsmith, I would be experimenting the hell out of this situation, because I have a wealth of epoxy chemicals at my disposal.

Special_KG said:
Devcon has a titanium epoxy. It's more expensive, but will work equally as good.
Click to expand...
I already have the devcon titanium. I was looking for a way to save some money.
 
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#17
goodgorilla said:
I'm just going to use the devcon so I hope my friend doesn't take it as an insult. There are to many unknowns for me to be screwing with. If I was a gunsmith, I would be experimenting the hell out of this situation, because I have a wealth of epoxy chemicals at my disposal.


I already have the devcon titanium. I was looking for a way to save some money.
Click to expand...

If he is a good engineer he'll appreciate that you don't want to run into complications, as they always come up with composites, no matter how well you design it.
 
#20
I got to see my engineering friend yesterday and we got to talk a little bit about epoxies. After much debate he finally spilled the beans that the stuff he's trying to get me to use is marine tex. I know marine tex is some kick ass stuff and will probably be using that and sending back the devcon titanium. Only thing is there are several kinds of marine tex, and I don't think he knows what kind it is. I've read somewhere if I use the marine tex I need to use the grey kind. If anyone is wondering how the conversation went, was me talking about the research I have done, and he kept on talking about all the different kinds of epoxies that he has used in the past. His opinion about marine tex being a superior epoxy was unshakable, and I didn't have the experience to debate him properly. I told him I'd do some research on marine tex before the next time I talk to him. Only thing that worries me is he mentioned some strange stuff about epoxy I never heard of before. Something about bubbles vs non bubbles on a molecular level. All I could say was I read somewhere that you don't want air bubbles in the epoxy.
 
#21
Devcon titanium is superior to Marine Tex. You need to quite worrying about the stuff you are using and concentrate more on making sure you bed the thing stress free, cause if you don't you might as well have used mud.
 
#22
jsthntn247 said:
Devcon titanium is superior to Marine Tex. You need to quite worrying about the stuff you are using and concentrate more on making sure you bed the thing stress free, cause if you don't you might as well have used mud.
Click to expand...

You got me on the fence worrying about using action screws during the bedding process. Everyone I talk to tells me to vice the action into the stock in some manner or another. My current plan is to do a skim bed, but removing some material so that the pillars are the only part of the bottom of the stock contacting the action. I am also planning to make sure the dry fit is perfect before do anything else. I'm planning on making a little clay damn a little past the recoil lug so that the flat part of the barrel will receive epoxy. I have not made up my mind on how I am going to center the barrel near the forearm yet, either tape or clay, I'm leaning a bit more towards tape. Someone warned me of doing that because the barrel channel might not be centered or round but I haven't gave it much thought yet. When I drop the action into the epoxy, I am planning on tightening the action screws until the epoxy stops oozing out the sides from tightening. I am also going to try and tighten the action screws equally tight using the t handles. After I'm done cleaning up the epoxy mess, I'm going to hang the rifle by the muzzle break to let cure. How does this sound? What is that test you do to check the stress after bedding? I can't find your old post.

He's a question I haven't asked yet: How is the clay damn in front of the recoil lug suppose to relate to the barrel? Is it suppose to support the barrel or is it there only to stop the epoxy.
 
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#24
. My current plan is to do a skim bed, but removing some material so that the pillars are the only part of the bottom of the stock contacting the action. .[/QUOTE]

Why skim bed if the only thing you're going to leave touching is the pillars? I'm really asking, there may be a good reason for it, or I may be misunderstanding what you're saying.
 
#25
mallrat said:
. My current plan is to do a skim bed, but removing some material so that the pillars are the only part of the bottom of the stock contacting the action. .
Click to expand...

Why skim bed if the only thing you're going to leave touching is the pillars? I'm really asking, there may be a good reason for it, or I may be misunderstanding what you're saying.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it's not a true skim bed, I don't know. I've read in a few places about this technique and it kind of makes sense that you want the action to perfectly connect with the pillars. If they do not perfectly connect, there will be torc between the stock and action which will cause stress.
 
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